A. After our liberation we were able to find various pictures which had been taken by the Gestapo. They used to take pictures whenever a murder or resettlement took place. On these occasions the Gestapo took pictures of everything. An order existed by the Central Historic Commission that all documents and pictures which were in the hands of private persons were to be turned over to the Historic Commission. I was in Breslau at 54 Scheidingerstrasse. There I had an apartment formerly belonging to a Gestapo man by the name of Natuschak. This is where I found a large number of pictures. I turned this photographic evidence over to the Historic Commission. That is how I came to have these pictures in my possession.
Q. Well, how did you get them back from the Historic Commission?
A. I asked for them, and several pictures were given to me as a memory of the tragic death of many of my fellow countrymen.
Q. It isn't clear just where you got the pictures. Did you say it was in Breslau?
A. At Breslau. That is where I found them because the Central Historic Commission was located there; and it was there that I obtained the pictures. Every Jew who requested those pictures was able to get them.
Q. So you got them the first time from the Central Historic Commission?
A. Some of the pictures I had in my own possession. I turned those into the Central Historic Commission and received many pictures from them, those pictures which I was interested in.
Q. Where did you get the pictures that you turned in to the Historic Commission? Where did you find them?
A. I found the pictures in the apartment which I received from the housing-office when I took over the residence from a Gestapo man by the name of Matuschak.
Q. Was that in Breslau?
A. That was not at Breslau. I have last been a resident of Breslau and received the photos there.
Q. Where was the apartment where you found the pictures?
A. The apartment was owned by a man named Matuschak who was a member of the Gestapo.
Q. Where was it?
A. It was at Breslau.
Q. Now we are back in Breslau--all right. When was it? When did yon have the apartment in Breslau?
A. From the end of 1945 and 1946 I lived there.
THE PRESIDENT: All right.
BY MR. PONGER:
Q Witness, some of the pictures have a stamp, "From the Commission." Are these the pictures which you obtained there?
A. Yes.
CROSS EXAMINATION BY DR. KARL HAENSEL (For the defendant Georg Loerner):
Q. May I refer once more to the pictures? These pictures show on the back that they were put into a book somewhere; that they had been taped in there.
A. Yes, I have an album at home as a souvenir; and I put these pictures in there. I took them out again and brought them here.
Q. What else was contained in the album?
A. In the album there were pictures of all my relatives who were killed by the Nazis.
Q. Wouldn't it have been a good idea also to bring along the entire album? Wouldn't it have been a good idea to bring along the entire album? Why didn't you bring it along?
A. Why should you be interested in the private pictures of my family? You're only interested in the pictures of the Herrenvolk of the Nazis here. You cannot be interested in pictures of my father.
Q. You say that you received these pictures from the Commission?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. These are incidents at which you were not present?
A. I was present when this happened. However, I did not have to be amongst them. Six million Jews were killed; and I did not see all of it; but I certainly was present at many of the cases, but not here with these Jews. My comrade was there, however. I can bring him here if you want me to.
Q. There is a picture here, Number 1, and on this picture no German soldier can be seen.
A. The German soldiers were standing at the sides. The German soldiers took the pictures of Jews, not of German soldiers. They just took pictures of Jews.
Q. Were you present at this incident?
A. Well, I saw similar incidents.
Q. When the slaughter-house at Tarnopol was mentioned to you, you said that Ukrainians with picks and shovels committed murders; is that true?
A. I stated that the German troops were afraid to go in to the cellars themselves, in to the hiding places, and that right from the neighborhood they took Ukrainians over to assist them. These Ukrainians discovered the hiding places, the air-raid shelters.
Q. Did these Ukrainians, because of a certain hatred against the Jews, begin voluntarily their operations at the time?
A. No, these Ukrainians got wages and they were promised that they would become independent Ukrainians if they helped to destroy the Jews.
Q. Before the arrival of the Germans did you have a dispute with the Ukrainians?
A. No. never.
Q. You always got along very well with the Ukrainians? Didn't it ever happen that there were pogroms? We usually use the Russian word "pogrom". Didn't any pogroms occur there? You know the word "pogrom," don't you?
A. During the last years the Ukrainians did not commit any pogroms. From 1914, the time of the last war, there were no pogroms at all. From the time of General Njelitzki we always got along very well with the Ukrainians.
Q. When Tarnopol was occupied, did you see a lot of different uniforms there?
A. Yes, there were the SS, the SD, and afterwards many units arriving with various trucks. They had bakery shop, locksmith shops, and so on.
Q. However, if I have understood you correctly, you said that you could not differentiate precisely between the various uniforms?
A. I was able to determine that there were SD men, SS men, and they had some units wearing the Death Head insignia. I don't know what that stood for.
Q. Do you know that the armored units also wore such Death Head insignia, or don't you know that?
A. I don't know that.
CROSS EXAMINATION BY DR. VON STAKELBERG (For defendant Fanslau):
Q. Witness, you told us about the incidents at the slaughter-house of Tarnopol. You told us about what happened in the first days after the occupation. Did you yourself see that?
A. Yes. However, I was not there when the murders took place. On the next day I was taken there in order to bury the corpses.
Q. But how do you know who committed the murders?
A. I know that because many people did not return home, they got murdered. I know that for certain.
Q. You heard that?
A. I was not told about that. The civilian population did not have the right to shoot people and to arm themselves with rifles. Only the soldiers were able to do that.
Q. You have told us before that the Ukrainians had done that?
A. Well, they helped.
Q. What units entered Tarnopol first of all and what units committed these atrocities?
A. I don't know that. I only know that it was a motorized unit. I can't tell you precisely, because I did not know the difference in insignia at the time.
Q. Could I take a look at the pictures once more, please?
A. I only know that some of them were wearing black and some of them brown collars.
Q. I have a picture here which has been provided with Number 3; and here I see the difference in uniforms. What kind of uniform is that which is to the left?
A. That is a German officer. However, I don't know what uniform it is. After all I'm only a Jew and I can't tell the difference, whereas you're a German. I don't know the difference.
Q. It seems to me to be foreign uniform.
A. Not at all. We never had any foreigners there. The first man to the left is a German officer. That is quite a normal uniform of a German officer.
Q. Then we have also black SS uniforms here?
A. That is not a black uniform; it was green.
Q. You have told us that you were not able to differentiate between uniforms; therefore, you cannot identify then; you cannot tell us what unit they were, whether SS, Wehrmacht, or Police?
A. I did not have the time to think at the time, to consider what kind of uniform they were at the time. I only knew that they were after me.
Q. Did you get interested in that situation after 1945 when you had those pictures in your possession? Did you show an interest in that when you had the pictures in your possession?
A. However, it does not make any difference to me who killed my father. It does not make any difference to me whether they were made up of SD or SS; the chief thing is that they were Nazis who did that. That is what I am mostly interested in. That does not make any difference what uniform they wore.
Q. That is quite correct, witness, but I only want to know whether you were able to differentiate between the uniforms, whether you can identify them.
A. I cannot differentiate between the uniforms. I could only make a difference between the railroad uniform, the Wehrmacht uniform, and the SS uniform.
Q. How did you happen to go to Breslau?
A. When I was liberated, nobody knew about my family, so I left home. I only have one sister in Palestine, and once I was trying to go to the US Zone because here I then would be able to emigrate.
DR. STAKELBERG: I have no further questions, Your Honor.
BY JUDGE PHILLIPS:
Q. Witness, you mentioned the Bakers Company and the Butchers Company. About how many days after the first units entered Tarnopol was it before the Bakers Company and the Butchers Company came?
A. Ever since the first unit entered Tarnopol, they occupied the bakeries and the bakers unit was there for quite some time until the front had advanced for quite some distance, and then the bakers units packed up again and moved on.
Q. How long did the Butchers Company stay there?
A. I only know that from the first day on until all the Jews were exterminated in Tarnopol. No good companies were there, because all of them were bad.
Q. I asked how long the Butcher Company stayed there, the meat company.
A. Well, the motorized patrol only remained for two days, the motorized patrol.
Q. You were asked--
MR. PONGER: May I ask him the question, please?
JUDGE PHILLIPS: Yes.
BY MR. PONGER:
Q. Witness, you mentioned the fact that Jews worked in the slaughterhouse, and that they slaughtered cattle there, and the Presiding Judge was asking you how long the butchers who were slaughtering the cattle remained at Tarnopol.
A. I understand now. They remained for quite a long time, because the district Wehrmacht was located at Tarnopol and everybody who had to go to the front would obtain food supplies at Tarnopol; there was a point where the supplies were obtained.
Q. When did the butchers outfit arrive for the first time, the Butchers Company?
A. Well, first of all the real occupational troops arrived, and orders existed that a Jewish committee was to be established.
Q. I want to interrupt you here. The question is, when did the butchers unit come to Tarnopol to work at the slaughterhouse? Do you understand my question?
A. They worked at the slaughterhouse -- you are talking about German troops?
Q. Yes.
A. They came right away, after two or three days had passed, that is, after two or three days.
BY DR. STAKELBARG:
Q. Witness, what bakers and butchers units were they?
A. I don't know what units they were, and I only know that one day I had to work, and I would have some heavy work every different day, in the bakers unit. I did not have any knowledge about the German occupational troops.
Q. Where was the baker unit located, and where was the butcher unit located, from where you were employed?
A. All of that happened in the synagogues. The sacred instruments were thrown out and burned, and depots were established inside the synagogues.
Q. And these were the bakers and butchers units which stayed at Tarnopol for some time?
A. I cannot say, and I don't know how long they stayed there, but they remained there for quite a long time, a few weeks.
Q. And you didn't work with the bakers and butchers units outside of Tarnopol?
A. Outside Tarnopol? No, I didn't work there.
Q. And were there units in the slaughterhouse which were Wehrmacht units?
A. I am sorry, I cannot tell you that.
DR. STAKELBERG: I have no further questions.
BY JUDGE MUSMANNO:
Q. Witness, with regard to these pictures. Am I correct in assuming that you identified the pictures not because you were present at any of the scenes in the pictures, but because you were familiar with similar scenes?
A. These pictures were well known to me, because in every city the same measures were taken. That is --- well, why I observed these pictures.
Q. You just were not personally present at any of these particular scenes when the pictures were taken?
A. At the time of the report about all the corpses at Tarnopol, there was much shooting going on also, and the SS was enjoying itself while they were doing that.
Q. Please answer the question. Were you present at any of the scenes which appeared in these pictures?
A. Yes, I was.
Q. When the pictures were taken?
A. Yes, I was present when many such pictures were taken.
Q. Were any of these pictures taken in Tarnopol?
A. No, these pictures which I have here just now were not taken at Tarnopol. This happened at Kielce near Radom, and if you would like I can bring you some Jewish people who can recognize these people in the picture.
Q. These are identified as pictures which you yourself either saw taken, or you were present at the scene where the pictures were taken? I would like to have the numbers. Present them to him.
MR. PONGER: He does not get the question, Your Honor.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: I would like to have him identify those pictures in which he actually participated in the scene.
MR. PONGER: He does not get the question, Your Honor. May I ask him that question?
JUDGE MUSMANNO: Yes, please.
BY MR. PONGER:
Q. Witness, His Honor would like to know whether you were present when any one of these pictures was taken?
A. One of these pictures?
Q. No--
A. No, I was not present, I mean.
Q. Were you there when any pictures which His Honor questions you about were taken?
A. No.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: Can you identify any of the figures in the pictures?
BY MR. PONGER:
Q. Can you identify any person who is shown in the pictures?
A. I personally cannot identify them, but in one of the pictures -but I can show you this one picture and I can tell you the person who is in the picture; I can tell you whether this is the Rabbi of LitzmannstadtLodz.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: What number is that?
THE WITNESS: The whole world knew him.
BY MR. PONGER:
Q. What is the number of that picture?
A. That is No. 5, and tomorrow I can bring in the people who knew him personally.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: All right then. To sum up the whole proposition, we come back to what I said at first, namely, that you identify the pictures because you have seen similar scenes.
BY MR. PONGER:
Q. In the summing up, His Honor means that you only know the pictures in view of the fact that you saw similar ones.
A. Yes.
THE PRESIDENT: Very well, excuse the witness.
(Witness excused)
Mr. Robbins, any arrangements been made to have copies of these pictures made? I think they ought to be photostated, or whatever method is used to have copies of them made. Has the witness gone?
MR. ROBBINS: No, he is out in the hall.
THE PRESIDENT: Bring him back again with the pictures. I first want the pictures with the witness. Now call the defendant Tschentscher to the stand as a witness, called by the Tribunal. Copy of the folders I want the witness to bring also.
(ERWIN TSCHENTSCHER, a defendant, recalled as a witness to the stand, testified as follows:)
THE PRESIDENT: Show the photographs to the witness.
Q. Witness, will you look at the photographs which have been numbered from one to seven inclusive, which were produced by the witness Goldstein, and state whether you can identify any of the uniforms which appear on the soldiers in the photographs?
A May I first put these pictures in order according to numbers? On Picture 1 I cannot identify any German uniforms. On Picture 2 there seem to be uniforms of the Wehrmacht. On Picture 3 is a uniform which is unknown to me. It would be the uniform of the Ukrainian Militia. I don't know the headdress at all. Picture 4 shows us a uniform of the police.
Q You mean the SD?
A No. That is the regular police.
Q You mean the local Ukrainian police?
A No the German regular police. Picture 5: here in the background on the right, I recognize an SS man who is wearing the uniform of Untersturmfuehrer, I believe he is an officer. This uniform appears to be black on the picture. The other uniforms seem to be police uniforms. Picturo 6: Then is a police uniform of the German regular police without any doubt. Picture 7, I cannot identify quite clearly. It may be police uniform or Wehrmacht uniform here.
Q Do you see any Death Head uniforms?
A With the exception of one Obersturmfuehrer who wears a black uniform I do not see any additional ones. This is Picture 5.
Q What did the Deathhead Division wear?
A The Deathhead Division wore field gray uniforms, just like the remaining SS, and at the collar in the place of the well-known SS insignia, a "Deathhead" was embroidered there.
Q Did It have any characteristic cap insignia?
AAt the steel helmets and Garrison caps?
Q At the Garrison caps.
A The Steel helmet of the SS during combat operations were provided with camouflage matters. This was made out of a different kind of material. The steel helmet were not provided with any insignia.
Q I am speaking about the cap insignia of the Deathhead Troops, did they have a special insignia on their caps?
A They were small field caps, similar to those worn by the American soldiers. In the center of the front was a button with a deathhead on it.
THE PRESIDENT: Let me see the pictures, please?
Q I will show you photographs 3, 4, and 6; on photograph 3 there are six soldiers in the background; tell me, if you can, to what units they belonged, especially the one on the right with the cap who is smiling.
A Your Honor, the second man on the right who is smiling is the only SS man whom I have described here, whom I noticed on all the pictures. It is an Untersturmfuehrer, that is the rank of lieutenant. However, he is wearing a peacetime uniform. It is not possible that he could have been a member of combat division. As far as I am able to recognize he is also wearing a leather shoulder strap which goes over his right shoulder; such shoulder straps were not worn at all by an officer of a combat unit in the field.
Q Can you identify the uniforms of the figures on the left of the picture?
A Yes. Without any doubt I can see it from the dark cuffs at the sleeves. They were typical for the German police, who wore light green uniforms and dark brown cuffs at the sleeves.
Q On Picture 7, the soldiers with the steel helmets on the right are Wehrmacht troops, are they not?
A Yes, as far as I am able to recognize it they are members of the Wehrmacht, because their collars are boardered in the typical Wehrmacht way, what we formerly used to call the "Cardelitzen". There is a special designation, but it is the typical insignia of the Wehrmacht.
Q The fact they have steel helmet on indicate that they were in combat or at least were engaged in a campaign?
A Yes, however, there may have also been units who were in the rear, and they carried out operations there. Perhaps they were combing the area for so-called Partisan bands. This could not have been for men in the front line.
Q They were active troops?
A Yes, they were combat troops in any case.
Q Picture No, 6 shows the uniform of the officer standing on the bank very clear, what is that uniform?
A Beg Pardon, Your Honor, this is not an officer.
Q Is it a soldier?
A He is also a member of the police, because he also wears the typical dark brown cuffs on his sleeves.
Q Picture No. 4 shows a number of soldiers in the background smiling at the row of dead people on the ground, and on the left is a soldier with a steel helmet on; can you tell us what outfit they belong to?
A The soldiers in the background all belong to the police, which is again clearly shown by the dark cuffs at the sleeves. The soldier whose face looks into the picture I cannot identify quite clearly, however, he may also be a member of the police.
Q Well, all of these German soldiers moved into Tarnopol with the capture of Tarnopol by the first line, did they not?
A The police units could not have entered the city together with the first troops, because these were the police units who later on moved up in order to provide the security in the country and to see that there was peace and order.
Q They were the occupation troops who followed the combat troops?
A They were part of them, and after all we had occupation troops of the Wehrmacht and in addition to that we also had these police units, who were to take charge of law and order.
Q You also had the Einsatgkommandos?
AAccording to the descriptions which I have seen in the files and reports, Ohlendorf and others, such Einsatgkommandos were composed of this regular police and also of native police, Ukrainian police units, which also included other nationalities. Some companies, I believe on the whole only two or three companies of the Waffen SS were also used for these tasks. They were furnished for these tasks, but I only know that by studying these files.
Q And the members of the Todt organization followed in the occupation troops?
A The organization Todt assisted in order to clear up the roads and build bridges. But they only came later on.
Q But it came in after the capture and with the occupation forces?
A Yes, with the occupation forces.
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY DR. HAENSEL; (for Loerner)
Q I only have one question, witness, with regard to the deathhead insignia, the Tribunal does not have the right idea yet about that insignia: If a soldier wore the deathhead insignia, did that mean that he belonged automatically to the deathhead division?
A No, he did not even have to be a member of the SS. The Deathhead has been a traditional Insignia of the German armies for centuries, and during the 1st World War it was particularly worn by the famous "Deathhead Hussars" (Totenkopf-Husaru) and besides the SS, it was also worn by the armored units. It was worn on their soft caps, which looked like bask caps, as far as I know. At any rate there were also units in the Wehrmacht which wore the Deathhead insignia.
Q Do you know how many armored division there were in the Army?
A There was quite a number of them, I believe a few dozen. However, not all wore the insignia. Only the so-called "tank men".
the drivers of the armored vehicles only.
Q However what I wanted to say is that -- the deadhead could not be identified with an insignia only belonging to the SS, is that correct?
A Yes, that's correct.
BY DR. PONGER:
Q Witness, is it correct that armoured units wore an entirely different uniform than other units? Had they different caps pants and vests?
A It was so during the campaign in the West. They also wore field gray uniforms. Their uniforms originally were thus that they wore baggy pants like the fountain division just like the American Army; long and tied together round the ankles. They wore a short jacket which only went down to the hip. It was not a long jacket like I myself am wearing.
Q Just a moment. I just wanted to know if they were wearing a different uniform than the SS for example?
A The SS wore a different kind.
Q I am talking about the armoured division of the SS troops, what difference was there?
A The difference did not exist later on any more. At the beginning you could see from the entire cut of the uniform, even without looking at the insignia. You could recognize an SS man from a distance because of his typical uniform.
Q You could also recognize a member of the armoured units.
A Yes.
BY DR. von STAKELBERG:
Q Witness, the black SS uniform, was it ever worn at the front?
A I have already stated when I identified this one SS officer, that this uniform was never worn at the front. I have also mentioned that this officer is wearing a shoulder strap and apparently belonged to a unit of the General SS, and - but this pure assumption on my part - he may have been a member of the resettlement commission, or some other unit.
At any rate they must have been far behind the front lines in the rear.
THE PRESIDENT: We will recess until 15 minutes of 2:00 (Thereupon a recess was taken until 1:45 p.m.)AFTERNOON SESSION (The hearing reconvened at 1345 hours.)
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal is again in session.
DR. BERGOLD: I have a request to the Tribunal. This morning a magazine of the Nordland Publishing Company was submitted to the Tribunal. I was not here this morning, and I would be most grateful to the Court if now I might have a look at this publication, because there is only one copy of it.
I am most grateful. Your Honor.
THE PRESIDENT: I'll be very glad to have all Defense Counsel see it.
(WILLI THEODOR KLAUS SCHAEFER, a witness, took the stand and testified as follows:
JUDGE PHILLIPS: Raise your right hand please and repeat after me:
I swear by God, the Almighty and the Omniscient, that I will speak the pure truth and will withhold and add nothing.
(The witness repeated the oath.)
JUDGE PHILLIPS: You may be seated.
DIRECT EXAMINATION BY DR. PRIBILLA:
Q Witness, will you please give the Tribunal your full name?
A My name is Willi Theodor Klaus Schaefer.
Q Where and when were you born?
A On 4 April 1907 at Nordhoff/Rendsburg.
Q What is your civilian profession?
A My profession is civil inspector of the municipality.
Q How long have you been a member of the Waffen-SS? Were you an active member, or were you only a member of the reserve?
A I was a member of the Waffen-SS since the beginning of the war. That is, since 1 September 1939. I was only a member of the reserve.
Q When were you a member of the SS division Viking?
A I was a member of the SS division Viking for 3 January 1941, and I remained a member until 1 April 1942.
Q What was your official rank in the Viking Division?
A From 3 January 1941 I was a leader in the divisional headquarters, in the divisional staff, and from 22 June 1941 I was leader of the Supplies Office, and from 21 November 1941 I was chief of the First Company; that is, the Economic Battalion. That also was a part of the Supplies Office.
Q In other words, during the whole period of time you were a member of the division of which Tschentscher also was a member.
Therefore, you will be in a position to explain to the Tribunal what happened during Tschentscher's absence in this division and what special occurrences happened at the Economic Battalion and at the SS Division Viking?
A I was a member of the Viking Division during the same period as Tschentscher, with the exception of an official trip I made to Germany. This trip took place about 25 August until 18 or 19 of September 1941.
Q With the exception of this short period of time, you were with the Viking Division during the whole period?
A Yes, I was.
Q Witness, could you give us a detailed explanation as to when Tschentscher left the Economic Battalion?
A That was 21 November 1941.
Q How do you know this date so exactly?
A That very day I became the successor to Sturmbannfuehrer Tschentscher, and I took over the First Company.
Q Where did Tschentscher go when he left your division?
A On the strength of his transfer order, Tschentscher returned to Germany, and he had. to report at Berlin.