THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal is again is session.
MR. ROBBINS: May it pleas the Tribunal, there may be some little difficulty in interpreting, because the witness speaks German with a Yiddish accent, I am told. I think matters would be facilitated if he is not interrogated in English, but if I let Mr. Ponger examine him.
ANTON GOLDSTEIN, witness, took the stand and testified as follows:
THE PRESIDENT: Stand please. Raise your right hand. I swear by God, the Almighty and Omniscient, That I will speak the pure truth and will withhold and add nothing.
(The witness repeated the oath)
THE PRESIDENT: You may be seated.
DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. PONGER:
Q. Witness, you can take off your ear phones now. Will you please tell your name to the Tribunal?
A. My name is Anton Goldstein.
Q. When and where were you born?
A. On the 4th of November, 1908, at Liegnitz.
THE PRESIDENT: We didn't get the last name.
Mr. PONGER: G-o-l-d-s-t-e-i-n-, Goldstein.
Q. Where are you residing now?
A. I am now residing in Furth, Julienstrasse No. 2
Q. Witness, will you pleas tell the Tribunal just what brough you here in order to appear as a witness?
A. Yesterday I happened to be a spectator here in this court room. I was a spectator here and in the course of the trail Tarnopal was discussed. Since I an a native of Tarnopol, this began to interest me very much and I heard many things which are not actually true. That is why during the recess, during the noon recess, I turned to the prosecu tion in order to give them information about theings which concerned the area of Tarnopol.
Q. Thank you. Witness, where were you at the outbreak of the RussoGerman war?
A. When the Fusso-German War broke out, I was at Tarnopol.
Q. Can you recall the date when Tarnopol was occupoed by the first German units?
A. Tarniopol was taken by the Germans approximately on either the 4th of 5th of July. I can't quite remember.
Q. Will you please recall that time to us and will you tell us what happened on the first days when the German troops accupied Tarnopo;?
A. On the first day when the German troops entered Tarnipop motor cycles entered the city and an SS unit - I don't know how many there were, but in my street I noticed about 30 to 40 men. At the time a terrible shooting stated. All the people went into hiding.
Q. I want to interrupt you, Witness. At Tarnopol were there any combat operations under way at the time?
A. No, there were no combat operations under way. The Russian troops always voluntarily retreated on their own initiative until they reached the Russian border at Prutzsch.
Q. What did you mean when you said shooting was going on?
A. Ukrainians would take Jews off the streets and from the houses and murders immediately took place, also robberies and attacks. The majority of the population on the second day went into the houses and into the cellars, they took all people for work.
Q. Was the measure that people were to work officially announced?
A. I don't know whether it was on the first day, but on the second day already varous orsers were posted all over the town and these orders stated that all Jews had to report immediately for work. They had to clean up.
They had to take away the corpeses and the rubble which was located in the street. Also many task cars and trucks had been left by the Russian troops. They were destroyed. All these things had to be cleared off the streets.
Q. What work did the Jews have to carry out altogether?
A. Officially all this work had to be carried out. Afterwards various groups were taken aside. The first group of 1,200 men were taken away and they were taken to prison. From there many of these people did not return. Most of them were also my relatives and friends. On the third day we knew that these people were taken away to Dnjeporowsk, one kilometer for the town of Tarnopol, and they had been shot there. These graves can still be seen today.
Q. Witness, was there a slaughter house at Tarnopol?
A. Yes, many Jews were also taken to the slaughter house for work and terrible incidents occurred. Murders took place and Jews were beaten to death without any weapons. The Ukrainians would kill Jews with pick and shovels and the SS assisted them and they entertained themselves there.
Q. You heard yesterday that it was described to us that after the first troops had entered Tarnopol they moved on immediately and then for some period of time no German inits were in the city, it that correct?
A. No, I do not agree with that at all. Front the first day until the last day German units constantly occupied Tarnopal. From day to day more troops came there. It was not true that Tarnopol was free of German units. German units always remained there. It is true that on the first day motorized units were there and on the second and third day regular units arrived there with tanks and few repair units and then there were some combat engineers who came there.
Q. At Tarnopol did you see any SD men?
A. SD and SS men were there.
Q. How did you know these people?
A. I only know that I was informed that the worst ones were those who were wearing the black and brown uniforms. They were the SS and SD men. Several of them wore a death head insignia. That was the SS.
Q. Witness, do you have in your possession any pictures which you brough along from Poland.
A. Yes, as a reminder of all the terrible incidents, I obtained pictures and these pictures were taken during the first days in Galicia.
Q. Witness, will you pleas show these pictures to the Tribunal?
A. Please. I can show them, but I would like them to remain in my possession.
Q. Do you have any other pictures?
A. Yes, I have some more here.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: We would like to have the pictures numbered and then let the witness explain what each picture portrays ans shows.
Q. Witness, I am now going to number the pictures. The Tribunal would like you to explain just what the pictures portray ans where you obtained these pictures. Will you please put a member on the pictures and explain to us what they mean.
A. The first picture shows when the first units entered the city. That was at Galicia. This was in the Ukraine, and in the small city the Jews who had hidden in the cellars were taken out of their hiding places.
They had hidden and what was a proof of the fact that they did not dare to go into the streets. They were shot in the middle of the street, but before that the religious garments were put on them and the entire group of the SS entertained themselves with these people. Here is a whole row of people who had been shot and were lying the street and one man is still standing alive. Before they were shot they had to dance and entertain the SS men. This sis Picture No. 4.
THE PRESIDENT: Show it to the defense counsel too.
Q. Picture No. 5?
A. Picture No. 5 show that a group of officers have taken a Jew and they told him to put on his religious garments and they tore out his hair with pliars.
Picture No.1 Picture No. shows a group of young people and women and children who were placed together in one big square and the old people had to lie down and the young ones would sit on their backs and they had to run around like horses about twenty times. It should be understood here how children play. That is how the young people had to sit on the back of the old people and they had to run around and that was done for the best enterainment of the SS officers.
Now, I have Picture Number 2 here. This picture shows that a group of officers have taken an old Jew. He got down on his knees and bagged for his life and told them he was old; but he was shot in the back. I have one more picture here. This is Picture Number 3. It shows how all these Jews were taken out and assembled into one group. Then all the people had to sit down on the ground. They were not allowed to talk to each other. Afterwards the SS took them to the woods and shot the entire group there.
Q. Do you have another picture there?
A. Yes, but I request that the pictures be returned to me. This is the picture; but I don't know whether this is an SD man or an SS man. This happened at Kielce. Here he took a woman with her boy, took her to the water, and told her she should go into the water up to her neck. After the woman had already gone into the water, he shot her. He did not shoot the boy yet but stood there like a sadist, entertaining himself. This was No 6.
Picture Number 7 shows that it was taken in the year 1943. It shows here that all cities had to be free of Jews. The Jews had to be grouped into ghettoes. It is shown here how the resettlement of the Jews took place. Each of them was allowed to carry along ten to fifteen kilograms of baggage. The SS were standing there when the picture was taken, and they were enjoying themselves.
Q. I have a number of other questions to ask you. Witness, did you see these things yourself?
A. Yes, I saw many of them myself.
Q. During such incidents were relatives of yours killed?
A. I don't want to talk about acquaintances and relatives; but I want to tell about what I saw with regard to my father, on the 30th of August in 1943. At that time I, my father, my mother, four brothers, and two sisters were taken out of our apartment. Then we were taken to the woods.
DR. VON STAKELBERG: Your Honor, I object to this question. The question obviously refers to the year 1943. I have understood you to say 1943. The year 1943, however, is not the subject of the trial with regard to any of the defendants as far as I am informed. In any case it does not concern Fanslau and Tschentscher, who are under discussion now.
A. May I continue?
THE PRESIDENT: Tho indictment covers from January 1933 to April 1945.
DR. VON STAKELBERG: Your Honor, I am of the opinion that this testimony here is to be rebuttal testimony, and not one to serve as evidence to the prosecution.
THE PRESIDENT: Objection overruled.
BY MR. PONGER:
Q. Witness, please continue your description.
A. I wanted to tell the Tribunal about the time from 1941 on when the German troops occupied the city. However, you asked me whether I had experienced anything concerning my family; and I wanted to tell you what I saw with regard to my parents.
Q. Yes, please go on with your description.
A. In 1941 the following happened: When the Germans entered the city, the many people summoned to gather for work. Every day many of them were shot, first of all, those people who were too old to work quickly.
I only started to work on the second or third day because I was hiding on the first day. We had to load vehicles with corpses from the prison. We buried them about one kilometer from Tarnopol at Picketrow. Afterwards, on the third day, terrible pogroms took place. This was done by the Ukrainian police and by the SS and various military people. I cannot recall any more what insignia they were wearing because at the time I could not distinguish the difference between the SS and the SD.
At that time terrible measures were taken against the Jewish population of Tarnopol. The order was issued that every Jew had to wear a white arm-band so that he could be easily recognized as a Jew. Cases occurred where a Pole was shot because he was mistaken for a Jew. Anyone wearing this arm-band was not allowed to go with anybody else on the sidewalk. He was not allowed to enter the sidewalk of the street. Such terrible things happened at this time, so that some people tried to leave and others went into hiding. Then various actions took place. Orders were given that all Jews had to turn over their gold, jewelry, and all their valuables belongings. Whoever did not do so in time was shot immediately. These were the first days. The most frightful instances occurred in the slaughter house. Very few people returned home from there because most of them were killed while they were at work there. That is what I wanted to say about the first few days.
Q. Witness, at the time could you differentiate between the SS and the Wehrmacht?
A. I cannot recall that any more. I only know that some of them were wearing such arm-bands--I believe that was the SD--and the SS were wearing the SS insignia.
Some of them were wearing the Death Head insignia; but those with the Death Head insignia were the worst ones and the first ones to commence murdering.
Q. You have stated that many Ukrainians participated in these atrocities?
A. The Germans themselves were unable to got these people out of the cellars, and so they took Ukrainians to assist them.
Q. Witness, I have just heard that something was not included in the translation. Did you see these scenes yourself? Or did you see similar scenes?
A. Similar scenes. It happened in our city with regard to my own brother. When the Germans entered the city, my father was at the synagogue. They entered the synagogue and cut off his beard, just half his beard. This was done to make him look ridiculous. When my father came home, we did not recognize him since he was wearing only half his beard. That is what I saw. Many of my relatives and acquaintances were shot at the time. That happened in the first days of the occupation.
THE PRESIDENT: The witness started to tell about the experiences of his family in 1943. Then the objection was made; and after the objection was ruled upon, he didn't finish his statement. Will you ask him about that?
Q. Witness, you began to tell us about your father's death, and then you were interrupted. The Tribunal now would like you to continue your description of the story.
A. On the 30th of August 1943 at 12:00 in the evening, SS and the SD and many members of the Ukrainian police went around our city.
They surrounded the city; and an action was started. In German this was called Sussiedburg "resettlement." All the people were taken out of the cellars and from airraid shelters. They were then put into one big square. Afterwards, all of us were taken to the woods. At the woods big trenches had already been dug. These graves were about ten meters in length, four meters in width, and two meters in depth. I was there at that time, along with my sisters and brothers and my mother and father. Outside the city there was a steep incline, and I jumped off there. I jumped down and ran into the woods. Then shooting started. They fired at me, but I managed to escape. On that day I lost my father, mother, brothes, and sisters. All of these people are buried in the woods two kilometers from the city. That is how I was able to save my life. Afterwards I was caught and put in a camp. Hauptsturufishrer Redel (?) was in charge of that camp. I stayed there until 1943. Then a certain agent of the secret police told us that at 12:00 that night an extermination squad came to the camp. I was able to escape to the woods with eight colleagues at 1200 hours. There was no barbed wire there charged with electricity; and that is why we were able to escape. I stayed in the woods with the partisans until our liberation. The Russian troops came into our area on the 30th of March 1944, and I was then liberated. That is how I was able to save my life.
EXAMINATION BY THE PRESIDENT:
Q. Where did you got the photographs that you have shown?
A. After our liberation we were able to find various pictures which had been taken by the Gestapo. They used to take pictures whenever a murder or resettlement took place. On these occasions the Gestapo took pictures of everything. An order existed by the Central Historic Commission that all documents and pictures which were in the hands of private persons were to be turned over to the Historic Commission. I was in Breslau at 54 Scheidingerstrasse. There I had an apartment formerly belonging to a Gestapo man by the name of Natuschak. This is where I found a large number of pictures. I turned this photographic evidence over to the Historic Commission. That is how I came to have these pictures in my possession.
Q. Well, how did you get them back from the Historic Commission?
A. I asked for them, and several pictures were given to me as a memory of the tragic death of many of my fellow countrymen.
Q. It isn't clear just where you got the pictures. Did you say it was in Breslau?
A. At Breslau. That is where I found them because the Central Historic Commission was located there; and it was there that I obtained the pictures. Every Jew who requested those pictures was able to get them.
Q. So you got them the first time from the Central Historic Commission?
A. Some of the pictures I had in my own possession. I turned those into the Central Historic Commission and received many pictures from them, those pictures which I was interested in.
Q. Where did you get the pictures that you turned in to the Historic Commission? Where did you find them?
A. I found the pictures in the apartment which I received from the housing-office when I took over the residence from a Gestapo man by the name of Matuschak.
Q. Was that in Breslau?
A. That was not at Breslau. I have last been a resident of Breslau and received the photos there.
Q. Where was the apartment where you found the pictures?
A. The apartment was owned by a man named Matuschak who was a member of the Gestapo.
Q. Where was it?
A. It was at Breslau.
Q. Now we are back in Breslau--all right. When was it? When did yon have the apartment in Breslau?
A. From the end of 1945 and 1946 I lived there.
THE PRESIDENT: All right.
BY MR. PONGER:
Q Witness, some of the pictures have a stamp, "From the Commission." Are these the pictures which you obtained there?
A. Yes.
CROSS EXAMINATION BY DR. KARL HAENSEL (For the defendant Georg Loerner):
Q. May I refer once more to the pictures? These pictures show on the back that they were put into a book somewhere; that they had been taped in there.
A. Yes, I have an album at home as a souvenir; and I put these pictures in there. I took them out again and brought them here.
Q. What else was contained in the album?
A. In the album there were pictures of all my relatives who were killed by the Nazis.
Q. Wouldn't it have been a good idea also to bring along the entire album? Wouldn't it have been a good idea to bring along the entire album? Why didn't you bring it along?
A. Why should you be interested in the private pictures of my family? You're only interested in the pictures of the Herrenvolk of the Nazis here. You cannot be interested in pictures of my father.
Q. You say that you received these pictures from the Commission?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. These are incidents at which you were not present?
A. I was present when this happened. However, I did not have to be amongst them. Six million Jews were killed; and I did not see all of it; but I certainly was present at many of the cases, but not here with these Jews. My comrade was there, however. I can bring him here if you want me to.
Q. There is a picture here, Number 1, and on this picture no German soldier can be seen.
A. The German soldiers were standing at the sides. The German soldiers took the pictures of Jews, not of German soldiers. They just took pictures of Jews.
Q. Were you present at this incident?
A. Well, I saw similar incidents.
Q. When the slaughter-house at Tarnopol was mentioned to you, you said that Ukrainians with picks and shovels committed murders; is that true?
A. I stated that the German troops were afraid to go in to the cellars themselves, in to the hiding places, and that right from the neighborhood they took Ukrainians over to assist them. These Ukrainians discovered the hiding places, the air-raid shelters.
Q. Did these Ukrainians, because of a certain hatred against the Jews, begin voluntarily their operations at the time?
A. No, these Ukrainians got wages and they were promised that they would become independent Ukrainians if they helped to destroy the Jews.
Q. Before the arrival of the Germans did you have a dispute with the Ukrainians?
A. No. never.
Q. You always got along very well with the Ukrainians? Didn't it ever happen that there were pogroms? We usually use the Russian word "pogrom". Didn't any pogroms occur there? You know the word "pogrom," don't you?
A. During the last years the Ukrainians did not commit any pogroms. From 1914, the time of the last war, there were no pogroms at all. From the time of General Njelitzki we always got along very well with the Ukrainians.
Q. When Tarnopol was occupied, did you see a lot of different uniforms there?
A. Yes, there were the SS, the SD, and afterwards many units arriving with various trucks. They had bakery shop, locksmith shops, and so on.
Q. However, if I have understood you correctly, you said that you could not differentiate precisely between the various uniforms?
A. I was able to determine that there were SD men, SS men, and they had some units wearing the Death Head insignia. I don't know what that stood for.
Q. Do you know that the armored units also wore such Death Head insignia, or don't you know that?
A. I don't know that.
CROSS EXAMINATION BY DR. VON STAKELBERG (For defendant Fanslau):
Q. Witness, you told us about the incidents at the slaughter-house of Tarnopol. You told us about what happened in the first days after the occupation. Did you yourself see that?
A. Yes. However, I was not there when the murders took place. On the next day I was taken there in order to bury the corpses.
Q. But how do you know who committed the murders?
A. I know that because many people did not return home, they got murdered. I know that for certain.
Q. You heard that?
A. I was not told about that. The civilian population did not have the right to shoot people and to arm themselves with rifles. Only the soldiers were able to do that.
Q. You have told us before that the Ukrainians had done that?
A. Well, they helped.
Q. What units entered Tarnopol first of all and what units committed these atrocities?
A. I don't know that. I only know that it was a motorized unit. I can't tell you precisely, because I did not know the difference in insignia at the time.
Q. Could I take a look at the pictures once more, please?
A. I only know that some of them were wearing black and some of them brown collars.
Q. I have a picture here which has been provided with Number 3; and here I see the difference in uniforms. What kind of uniform is that which is to the left?
A. That is a German officer. However, I don't know what uniform it is. After all I'm only a Jew and I can't tell the difference, whereas you're a German. I don't know the difference.
Q. It seems to me to be foreign uniform.
A. Not at all. We never had any foreigners there. The first man to the left is a German officer. That is quite a normal uniform of a German officer.
Q. Then we have also black SS uniforms here?
A. That is not a black uniform; it was green.
Q. You have told us that you were not able to differentiate between uniforms; therefore, you cannot identify then; you cannot tell us what unit they were, whether SS, Wehrmacht, or Police?
A. I did not have the time to think at the time, to consider what kind of uniform they were at the time. I only knew that they were after me.
Q. Did you get interested in that situation after 1945 when you had those pictures in your possession? Did you show an interest in that when you had the pictures in your possession?
A. However, it does not make any difference to me who killed my father. It does not make any difference to me whether they were made up of SD or SS; the chief thing is that they were Nazis who did that. That is what I am mostly interested in. That does not make any difference what uniform they wore.
Q. That is quite correct, witness, but I only want to know whether you were able to differentiate between the uniforms, whether you can identify them.
A. I cannot differentiate between the uniforms. I could only make a difference between the railroad uniform, the Wehrmacht uniform, and the SS uniform.
Q. How did you happen to go to Breslau?
A. When I was liberated, nobody knew about my family, so I left home. I only have one sister in Palestine, and once I was trying to go to the US Zone because here I then would be able to emigrate.
DR. STAKELBERG: I have no further questions, Your Honor.
BY JUDGE PHILLIPS:
Q. Witness, you mentioned the Bakers Company and the Butchers Company. About how many days after the first units entered Tarnopol was it before the Bakers Company and the Butchers Company came?
A. Ever since the first unit entered Tarnopol, they occupied the bakeries and the bakers unit was there for quite some time until the front had advanced for quite some distance, and then the bakers units packed up again and moved on.
Q. How long did the Butchers Company stay there?
A. I only know that from the first day on until all the Jews were exterminated in Tarnopol. No good companies were there, because all of them were bad.
Q. I asked how long the Butcher Company stayed there, the meat company.
A. Well, the motorized patrol only remained for two days, the motorized patrol.
Q. You were asked--
MR. PONGER: May I ask him the question, please?
JUDGE PHILLIPS: Yes.
BY MR. PONGER:
Q. Witness, you mentioned the fact that Jews worked in the slaughterhouse, and that they slaughtered cattle there, and the Presiding Judge was asking you how long the butchers who were slaughtering the cattle remained at Tarnopol.
A. I understand now. They remained for quite a long time, because the district Wehrmacht was located at Tarnopol and everybody who had to go to the front would obtain food supplies at Tarnopol; there was a point where the supplies were obtained.
Q. When did the butchers outfit arrive for the first time, the Butchers Company?
A. Well, first of all the real occupational troops arrived, and orders existed that a Jewish committee was to be established.
Q. I want to interrupt you here. The question is, when did the butchers unit come to Tarnopol to work at the slaughterhouse? Do you understand my question?
A. They worked at the slaughterhouse -- you are talking about German troops?
Q. Yes.
A. They came right away, after two or three days had passed, that is, after two or three days.
BY DR. STAKELBARG:
Q. Witness, what bakers and butchers units were they?
A. I don't know what units they were, and I only know that one day I had to work, and I would have some heavy work every different day, in the bakers unit. I did not have any knowledge about the German occupational troops.
Q. Where was the baker unit located, and where was the butcher unit located, from where you were employed?
A. All of that happened in the synagogues. The sacred instruments were thrown out and burned, and depots were established inside the synagogues.
Q. And these were the bakers and butchers units which stayed at Tarnopol for some time?
A. I cannot say, and I don't know how long they stayed there, but they remained there for quite a long time, a few weeks.
Q. And you didn't work with the bakers and butchers units outside of Tarnopol?
A. Outside Tarnopol? No, I didn't work there.
Q. And were there units in the slaughterhouse which were Wehrmacht units?
A. I am sorry, I cannot tell you that.
DR. STAKELBERG: I have no further questions.
BY JUDGE MUSMANNO:
Q. Witness, with regard to these pictures. Am I correct in assuming that you identified the pictures not because you were present at any of the scenes in the pictures, but because you were familiar with similar scenes?
A. These pictures were well known to me, because in every city the same measures were taken. That is --- well, why I observed these pictures.
Q. You just were not personally present at any of these particular scenes when the pictures were taken?
A. At the time of the report about all the corpses at Tarnopol, there was much shooting going on also, and the SS was enjoying itself while they were doing that.
Q. Please answer the question. Were you present at any of the scenes which appeared in these pictures?
A. Yes, I was.
Q. When the pictures were taken?
A. Yes, I was present when many such pictures were taken.
Q. Were any of these pictures taken in Tarnopol?
A. No, these pictures which I have here just now were not taken at Tarnopol. This happened at Kielce near Radom, and if you would like I can bring you some Jewish people who can recognize these people in the picture.
Q. These are identified as pictures which you yourself either saw taken, or you were present at the scene where the pictures were taken? I would like to have the numbers. Present them to him.
MR. PONGER: He does not get the question, Your Honor.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: I would like to have him identify those pictures in which he actually participated in the scene.
MR. PONGER: He does not get the question, Your Honor. May I ask him that question?
JUDGE MUSMANNO: Yes, please.
BY MR. PONGER:
Q. Witness, His Honor would like to know whether you were present when any one of these pictures was taken?
A. One of these pictures?
Q. No--
A. No, I was not present, I mean.
Q. Were you there when any pictures which His Honor questions you about were taken?