A I have already stated before that the supply battalion had too much work to do, and it did not have any time left for such spare-time duties. After all, vehicles would have been needed for that and they were loaded with food. In the area of Tarnopol we carried out our chief baking and slaughtering operations, because up to that time the division had to live off their marching rations so to speak, and the accommodations at that time of the Butcher Company which was supposed to have been on the Southern edge of the city of Tarnopol, I cannot recall ever having seen it. This company went up so far ahead, because Tarnapol was attacked by Russian bombers in short sequence, and I believe I can also recall that in the city an Army slaughter house was being operated for which only some personnel from the Butcher company was furnished. Perhaps only slaughter personnel who held a higher rank in the butcher company was furnished for that purpose.
THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Pribilla, we will take the recess, please.
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal will recess for about 15 minutes.
(A recess was taken)
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal is again is session.
BY DR. PRIBILLA:
Q. Witness now we come to Zhitomir. There together with baker and slaughter companies you are supposed to have lived in the parachute barracks.
A. No, there barracks mean nothing to me. I only know that the baker company definitely was stationed in the town in a barracks or a school. I don't exactly know where the slaughtering company was, probably there too, and the first company that is the V office, was outside of Zhitomir in a farm. That is to say once could view the city from the heights, from the farm It is not true as the witness says, that I was there, that he saw vehicles of the V office there who were permanently there, and that I was a member of one of those companies not that I had disciplined a member of that company because of drunkenness.
Q. That is, you were on a farm outside of Zhitomir?
A. Yes. I was not able to serve at that time. I was suffering from an attack of Russian dysentery and I was sent Skwira to be evacuated, because there the advance commands were already present, and it was blamed there were better opportunities to house me and take care of me, for on that farm we were housed only very primitively.
Q. Witness, it is then quite out of the question that at that time you visited the baker and butcher companies who were possibly in the barracks, in the house?
A. No, I was not there.
Q. And why?
A. Because of my sickness. I may add to this that when the three companies were not stationed together in one place but were more or less separated, all according to the conditions there, it was obviously very difficult for me, if not impossible together and exactly see where the other two companies were located. We only had motorcycle couriers between those who told me what the other two companies had available in the form of bread, meat and sausage.
Q. Then you cannot say anything about whether in Zhitomir the baker company employed Jews in carrying water or baking bread?
A. No, not from my own knowledge. I don't think that it was necessary for the company had two large water trucks of 5,000 liters with two pumps so that such manual labor was absolutely senseless.
Q. What do you know about the alleged incident in which Oberscharfuehrer Sirk is supposed to have shot six Jews in a barn? Did you hear anything about it, or see anything about it?
A. No, I don't know anything about it.
Q. Do you remember the camp site?
A. Yes.
Q. What were the conditions there?
A. On barracks? I remember this very exactly. We were once stationed there for a longer period, approximately ten days. Biala-Zierkew was quite a large Russian university town. The baker company was located about around the center of the town. I was once in that place, and in this case I know that the housing facilities there consisted of a Russian Air Corps barracks. At least that is what I was told. I don't have any special basis for this. The first and third companies were located on the edge of town in a grocery and vinegar factory.
A. Then according to your description all three companies were in barracks in firm building, whereas the witnesses said they were in a bivouac there?
A. No, it is to be noted here that I believe since the invasion of Russian territory that is agter Lemberg was taken, all these three units were first located together in one town, and a bivouac was not necessary, if only for the fact that we had buildings there. On a bivouac one generally understand sleeping in tents or in the vehicles outside of buildings.
Q. What do you have to say about the incident which has been described here that you were only dressed in pants and that the shirt was hanging out, that you were supposed to have run after a Jew and shot him?
A. It is expressly claimed by me that I must call this completely an invention. I think about it in vain, which incident could have been manufactured into such an event. It is no proof if I mention it here, but for everyone who knows me, well, the alleged dress must seem altogether incredible and unusual. I have never been dressed negligently, and I have never been seen like that. The coming in of a stranger, allegedly a Jew, I cannot imagine, because our house was fenced in, and there was a guard at the gate who would have not let anyone in. Beside, this factory was not located on a thoroughfare where it would be that such transports were brought through, but it was a blind alley which ended at that factory so that no one who had no business there could get there at all.
Q. Therefore, nothing has happened which has been described here?
A. No. We had many other excitements there, to be sure, such as air attacks, and I know that a shot down Russian bomber fell down on our house with all its bombs, and there were all kind of damages and fires that resulted from this, and a part of the motor landed in a Russian farm where there were six or eight dead on account of it.
Q. But that you shot anyone is possible, is it?
A. I can only say unequivocally that this sounds incredible, that during the entire war I did not fire a single shot on a human being. I don't even think I shot an animal, and in my entire life I have never shot any human being, and thus this Stamminger, this Witness Stamminger who was mentioned, could not have been endangered by shots coning from me. I haven't heard either that anyone else had done that.
Q. Witness, do you recall Fiodorke here, and when were you there?
A. The village's name was Eiodorke. We got there after the events at Smela which have already been described, and it was very quiet there. We really had a few untroubled and peaceful days there. The town was noteworthy and very charming, if you consider the monotonous Russian landscape. Such an incident, or even approximately such an incident did not take place there either.
Q. What do you have to say about the alleged incident about Gisch where you were supposed to have ordered a Jew to be shot?
Even this is a puzzle to me. I simply don't know and I surely never ordered anything like that. I don't know if anyone else ordered it either and I cannot find any motive for it. In this connection, I would like to point to another circumstance. There was only a sizeable Jewish population in the former Russian Poland and in all these regions I did not even notice any Jews nor did I even meet any. They were purely farm territory, farming regions, while the Jews usually belonged to the trade people.
BY THE PRESIDENT:
Q When you talk about former Russian territory, do you exclude the Ukraine?
A No, your Honor. I mean the region of Lemberg, or south of Zlotzow or near Tarnopol, what I would call Schepetowka. There the of Russian frontier begins that is the Shitomir was already the old Russian Ukraine territory.
Q Then there were plenty of Jews in the old Russian territory?
A I did not notice any. Perhaps in the cities, but I stated that I did not get to any but three cities and we were always on flat land.
Q You saw Jews in Zlotzow and Tarnopol?
A Yes, but it was in the Polish territory.
Q And after you went east of Tarnopol, you say there were not so many Jews?
A Well, I don't know, but I did not see any.
Q Do you realize the city of Kiew is not very far from Shitomir?
A I did not mean anything to me at the time.
Q Kiew?
A I was never in Kiew.
Q Well, do you know that Kiew was almost exclusively a Jewish city?
A So I am hearing that for the first time, your Honor.
Q It was a large city?
A Yes that it was a large old Russian city - that I know.
Q But you did not got to Kiew?
A I never was in Kiew in my life.
Q Your route was to the south of it?
A Yes, first we were supposed to go to Kiew, but we turned off suddenly to the south east of Smela at Biala Zierkew and it could not have been very far from Kiew for I heard reports that the Russian airplanes which often attacked us there came from Kiew, that may have been 80 kilometers away.
Q You finally got to Dnjepopetrowsk, did you not?
A In the direction of Dnjepopetrowsk we never were in Dnjepopetrowsk with our battalions, your Honor.
Q Did you get any further east than that?
A Yes, it was already mentioned that we were about 80 kilometers from Dnjepopetrowsk, then finally we went on northeastward and at Krementschcik we crossed the Dnepr River, on the other Dnepr shore we marched approximately parallel to the river to Novo Moskowsk.
Q Where were you when you were detached from your battalion at the end of December?
A On the 21st of November on the way back I flew from Zinov.
Q That is where you were detached from your command?
A Yes. My battalion or my company was north of Taganrog, on the Black Sea, on the Easter tip of the Sea of Asow, which is north of Taganrock, from there I started on my trip back in my car.
Q Did you got to Rostow?
A No on the day when I went to Rostow, it was just taken by another division.
Q And how far away were you from Rostow?
A I cannot give it to you in kilometers. I was on the heights of Taganrog. I don't know whether the estimate is correct, but it might have been 80 kilometers or more, but it must have been a considerable distance.
BY DR. PRIBILLA:
Q Witness, I would like to ask you once more to give the exact date and time when you left the supply battalion?
A I was very suddenly recalled or rather I got the order to get winter clothing for the division, that was on 20 or 21 November, 1941. The town where we were at the time was Milost Kurakino, a double name.
Q This town of Milost Kurakino was situated on the north of Taganrok?
A Yes.
Q North of the sea of Asow?
A Yes.
Q Witness, please describe exactly how your return trip came off when you left Milost Kurakino on the 20th of 21st of November?
A On that day I left with my official car and had all my baggage with me, because I was told I was not to return to my division, and travelled south the Dnjepre, that is at Saporoshe where I spent the night, north of Saporoshe. I recall because there for the first time I entered a Russian farm, which I avoided thus far. Continuing my trip my car was held up by mechanical difficulties at Sine Nikowo and I had to continue in a vehicle of a stange army postal unit. I had with me the Battalion tailor, who was sent back to Germany because of illness. His name was Kranzner. I remember that the season was abnormal as the Russians told us there was still no snow, but there had been considerable rain. The roads were muddy, that is whatever one calls roads in Russia, the ground there is firm like asphalt when there is no rain and after a half hour's rain one stands in mud up to one's knees. When the cold suddenly broke out in the night on the 20th of November, these roads suddenly froze up. That was the reason why my vehicle damaged. When I came to Dnjepopetrowsk, there was no snow.
Q Was that on the next evening, you said that you spent the night?
A That must have been the 21st of November. In Sine Nikowo I did not spend any time and it was in a village near Saporoshe where I spent the night.
Q And the next night?
A From Saporoshe I arrived at Dnjepvopetrowsk, I arrived at twilight which I still recall because in this twilight I had difficulty finding the base of the Viking division. I cannot give you any more details, but of cour I must have come across the birdge. It would not have been possible otherwise, but it does not mean anything to me anymore what the bridge was like and what conditions were.
Q Then you arrived in Dnjepvopetrowsk in the evening?
A Yes, it was just beginning to get dark.
Q When did you continue from Dnjepvopetrowsk?
A The next morning between seven and eight, I left with an air transport plane and flew into the Reich. My companion Kranzner remained back there, because we had no room and then came by rail two weeks later.
Q What did you do toward the end of the year and when did you take up your new position?
A I only took care of the winter cloth supply for the division. Fanslau and Schaefer had already prepared this in an official trip. I merely had to see that the transport was arranged for them. I went on a Christmas furlough until the end of the year to my home town and then on 2 January 1942, I took up my new office in Obersalzberg.
Q. Did you hear anything of a Einsatzkommando VI in Dnjepopetrowsk, or did you hear at all that a Einsatzkommando was active there?
A. No, not in the least. From the headquarters of the Wiking Division, I went to town by foot. The corps command of the Luftwaffe was also located in town and I went there to talk to an officer about my passage on a plane and I only know that in Dnjepopstrowsk, as far as I recall, the street lights were burning which was very unusual during war because of the blackout, but the town made a very peaceful impression. I didn't know anyone there. I didn't talk to any one, and I didn't stay anywhere because I was pretty tired from my trip and wanted to continue the next day.
Q. And that was definitely on the 21st of 22nd of November, 1941?
A. Yes, there's no doubt about that.
Q. And there was no snow and it was not December?
A. No, it is noteworthy that there was no snow. It was quite warm during the day, only it was very cold during the morning hours. I believe I recall that when I took this short walk to the corps command of the Luftwaffe that I didn't even wear a coat.
Q. I have no further questions.
THE PRESIDENT: Cross examination by other defense counsel?
The prosecution may cross examine.
CROSS EXAMINATION BY MR. FUIKERSON:
Q. Witness, I think that I remember you said you gave three lectures to individual companies during the activation phase of the division, and then you gave one lecture to the whole battalion.
A. That was during the time of the establishment of the division at Dachau. That must have been in February or March 1941.
Q. Now, you say that you drew for your lecture material on various magazine and newspaper articles?
A. Those were definite records which we called messages from the OKH, the chief command of the army. Those were small newspapers, the size of a sheet to typewritter paper, which contained press reports. Those were general directives for the political and military situation, with special emphasis as to the use of these things for the troops.
Q. So that part of this course, part of these lectures was directed towards teaching the troops what they needed to know about politics, etc.?
A. Yes, I suspect that the command of the army which edited these leaflets had close contact with the propaganda ministry of Goebbels. These different agencies must have been in agreement with each other.
Q. And, naturally, they were concerned with such things as the world outlook of the Waffen-SS, that sort of thing?
A. No, these army leaflets were not. They didn't have any special emphasis on the Waffen-SS, but the will-known information bulletins which you submitted to me, the information bulletins of the Waffen-SS which the prosecution submitted some time ago, they were also distributed. Ten or twenty men received such a bulletin which then circulated among the men.
Q. I want you to look at this document here, #1805, and tell me if this was the same general sort of material that you used. Would you mind identifying that to the court?
A. I don't know this journal, but I see that it was edited by the SS Main Office, Nordland Publication, but this isn't the material which I mean. I don't know the title of these bulletins. I think they were information bulletins.
Q. Well, this publication you had in your hand there came from the WVHA, didn't it.
A. No, that came from the SS Main Office.
Q. What was the publishing company?
A. It was printed by the Nordland Editions in Berlin, but the editor seems to have been the SS Main Office.
Q. It was published by this Nordland Publishing Company which was in W-5, was it not? I beg your pardon, W-7.
A. It must have been printed there. I can't tell which is the date of the edition.
Q. Do you recognize the magazine?
A. No, I said already I don't know this magazine and this shows pictures of Russia. Therefore, it must have been edited during the Russian campaign or later, and I spoke specifically of the training before the Russian campaign for, in Russia during the Russian campaign, there was not time for a political enlightenment of the troops.
Q. What is the title of this magazine? Do you remember?
A. No, I don't. What it says it "The Sub-Human", but this might not have been the title.
Q. I'd like to ask the Secretary to mark this for identification.
SECRETARY-GENERAL: 639.
BY MR. FULDERSON:
Q. Exhibit 639, yes. The general contents of that magazine are familiar to you? You have heard it before. You had a chance to glance at it.
A. I have just seen it now.
Q. But I mean, the general character of its contents are not strange to you?
A. I've seen similar things, not with this tendency for this shows a picture of atrocitier and murders. I recall that, I believe, a socalled "Brown Book" was published after the beginning of the Polish campaign about the incidents in Bromberg, the so-called "Bromberg Bloody Sunday", and I saw a similar magazine on the train trip to the northern front. This book was concerned also with matters of the Russian policy in the Baltic.
These journals had more of an anti-Bolshevist tendency.
Q. But the general contents of this magazine, for example, the caption of one of those pictures there under a collection of photographs of President Roosevelt, Churchill, and Mayor LaGuardia is that "Jews are Jews and swine are swine". That's nothing new to you, Your're familiar with this type of publication.
A. Pardon me, but Churchill being a Jew is entirely new to me. I never heard of that. But this daring assumption, I have certainly not gone through all this with closed eyes but I've heard quite often very nasty and definitely propagandastic claims and I have discussed these with others and we just shrugged our shoulders to this and we just let ourselves be convinced that the others didn't do it any better either. That's unfortunately the nasty effect of such wars. The human excitement which is generated by these wars. I have seen descriptions in Russian papers which were not flattering either, and, as a thinking man, one can have ones own ideas about it but one does not have to identify one's self with that and one does not have to pass it on either. It would be as if you, Mr. Prosecutor, were to ask me if I approved of The Stuermer, Mr. Streicher's paper. I would say "no" That's a matter of Taste.
Q. Now, what were some of these political subjects you lectured on?
A. Well, I didn't lecture on political themes. I have already mentioned that I spoke about the tactics of committing supply units. That was a lecture in three parts and I definitely recall that, for a definite reason, I once spoke to the young men of the whole battalion about our position toward marriage, toward women and toward children.
Q. Well, what was your position toward marriage in the SS? What did you tell them?
A. I believe I can briefly describe it this way. The opinion of a decent man anywhere that the marriage is a serious tie for life and not, as it is often described today and as it us unfortunately considered by supervicial human beings here and there, that marriage - I must express it drastically - is an institution for raising children.
Q. Excuse me. In the course of discussing marriage, did you ever mention to them that certain standards should be hold to so far as the selection of a wife was concerned? That there were certain....
A. (Interrupting) Yes, yes, of course.
Q. For example, did you tell them that, as members of the Waffen-SS, as the purest Nordic strain that could be found, that they ought not to taint their blood by marrying Jewish girls, for example?
A. I beg your pardon, Mr. Prosecutor, but I must laugh at this. the situation is actually too serious for that. If I could demonstrate with my own wife. She hardly reachs up to my shoulder and there is definitely strong French blood in her. Not what one considers as a pure Germanic woman. That is to say, in my own case, this matter has led to absurdism.
Q. As a matter of fact, the deed was done in your case by the time you were giving these lectures. You were advising these young men on what they should do. Is that not true?
All right. Enough of this.
DR. HOFFMAN: Your Honor, I don't want to interfere with the cross examination but I personally have often heard the Tribunal say: "What does this question have to do with the indictment?", and I believe that these questions about the Nordic strain, about marriage, have nothing at all to do with the indictment and I can't see what it has to do with the cross examination. If these questions are however taken up, then I must assume that the prosecution will make use of it in its final pleas, but I ask the court to draw the prosecution's attention to the fact that should keep themselves to the indictment which is not the case here.
MR. FULKERSON: I think it is fairly clear what the purpose of these questions are, if Your Honor please, that they certainly go to the credibility of the witness. Here a man says he got up and gave a lecture to the Waffen-SS about the marriage question, and never suggested that the racial theory could not be considered. I think it is a matter that goes to his credibility.
THE PRESIDENT: Well -
MR. FULKERSON: However, I am willing to discontinue this discussion. I have had enough of it.
THE PRESIDENT: I think there are more important things to be inquired into.
MR. FULKERSON: Yes.
BY MR. FULKERSON:
Q Witness, do you remember the affidavit which you made, and which has already been introduced in evidence here? Do you remember here that was the affidavit which you made?
A The one which I submitted on 14 January, here?
Q Yes?
A Yes.
Q Excuse me, witness, I am sorry, but I withdraw that question. I am going to hand you a document No. 1159. I want you read it to the court, and tell what it is?
A It is an order for my transfer after my activity with the Wiking Division to Obersalzberg, which I already mentioned before, and by attorney Pribilla, taking up a new position on 2 January 1942, as director of the SS Administration, Obersalzberg. There I was for three months.
Q I shall show you this document No. 1160 and ask you to identify it?
A That is a promotion by my divisional commander 14 police division Hueneberg three months after my transfer to Obersalzberg; upon my own personal request I was transferred, to my field unit.
This must have been the end of 1942 when this request for promotion was written.
Q Do you remember reading something about this remark in pencil? Read it?
A "1 December 1940 to 15 February 1942, the Division-Wiking." This statement is not correct. Evidently the Police Division where I was didn't know this, I can prove that during these three months I was in the obersalzberg, for on 15 April I arrived at the Police Division, that is correct.
Q I am going to hand you document 1157. Please tell the court what that is, and read the entries between the brackets?
A It says, ".14 1942 1 January, SS, Sturmbannfuehrer, SS Administrative, Obersalzberg. "I can not read what it says below.
Q What is the document? Can you now tell what it is. Will you identify it for the court?
A That seems to be a personnel report which was made out in the personnel office. I don't know this. Probably it is a file noting my address, and my position, and all my personal data.
Q Of course, that is your file, then?
A That is a personnel file, I imagine. I don't know. This probably was merely the personnel files in the card index.
Q Now, in the affidavit that you have given here, you said this, and I am reading from it, "At this time," referring to 30 November 1940, "I was transferred to the Division-Wiking." Then you go on and say: "With this Division I took part in the first Russian campaign, and was releived effective 31 December 1941, and transferred to Obersalzberg." You said that, didn't you?
A Yes, that is correct, insofar as I was there until the 31 December of that year, I actually belonged to the Wiking Division. I merely had an order for an official trip to Germany, an order which I got on 21 November, an order to take care of winter clothing, and this was quite conceivable, considering the season.
Then I had my furlough at home, which I already mentioned, but on the other hand I had to be kept on record until 1 January, and on that date I reported to Obersalzberg for duty.
Q Now, according to Otto's testimony, if I recall correctly, this incident at Dnjepopetrowsk took part around the beginning of December. The incident which I had in mind?
A Yes, that is right.
Q According to your personal files, according to an order transferring you from the Wiking Division, and, according to your affidavit, you were transferred from the Wiking Division on 31 December, or 1 January?
A Formally, my membership in the Wiking Division ceased with the last day of the year, 1941.
Q And according to your testimony and according to what is known or raised in these documents, you left your outfit on 21 November?
A Practically speaking, I left the unit on 21 November, as I already said. I did not return after that.
Q Now while you were in Russia, did you ever hear of the SD?
A Nothing specific about the SD. I know that somewhere, I cannot tell you today where it was, whether it was on the northern front, or down there, I met a SD man on a station. They wore a uniform similar to the SS, and they had the police shoulder clasps, and on the sleeves they wore a square with the silver lettering "SD", and I asked this man surprised what he was doing here. He was a non-commissioned officer, and he gave me an evasive answer that he had a political mission, and I did not see fit to press this man and ask him exactly what his mission was, as there was such a thing as a secret field police unit, and all kinds of security units, as every army has which goes out into an area. That is the only experience with a SD man that I had.
Q That is the only time you ever saw a SD man in Russia?
A That I noticed him, yes.
Q Now did you ever, while you were in Russia, come in contact with the Einsatzgruppen, or an Einsatz-unit, or the Sonder-kommando?
A No, I can definitely deny that.
Q Did you know that such units existed in Russia?
A No, it was not known to me. I did not. I may say one thing here, Mr. Prosecutor, the word "Einsatzgruppen" as of today has quite a different sense in meaning. At that time one spoke of the Einsatz in all kinds of connections. In the mobilization regulations of the German Army, they did not mention war, but they mentioned: "in a case of a special commitment;" that a large supply and ministrative regulations for the army were abbreviated "EVDG"*
Q In using the word "Einsatzgruppe" as having the connotation it has today, there is no doubt in your mind what the Einsatzgruppes were, now, is there?
A May I express myself this way. If I had heard the word I would not have imagined anything special under it there were so many branches of service, so many technical branches, such as the Organization Todt, and in fact I can not remember them all now. So far as an Einsatzgruppe, it would not surprise me very much, and I would have, perhaps, imagined a special combat group. It is quite thinkable that this word might have reached my ears one time or the other, but I did not have any special idea about the meaning.
Q You did not know there was a group of men who were under the general jurisdiction of the SD?
A No.
Q For carrying out these systematic killings of various inferior or undesirable groups of the population?
A No.
Q You never heard of that at all?
A In no way.
THE PRESIDENT: 9:30 tomorrow morning.
MR. FULKERSON: Yes, Your Honor.
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal will recess until 9:30 tomorrow morning.
(The Tribunal adjourned until 29 August 1947, at 0930 hours)
Official Transcript of the American Military Tribunal in the matter of the United States of America, against Oswald Pohl, et al., defendants, sitting at Nurnberg, Germany, on 29 August 1947. 0930-1630, Justice Robert M. Toms, presiding.
THE MARSHAL: Persons in the courtroom will please find their seats.
The Honorable, the Judges of Military Tribunal II.
MILITARY TRIBUNAL II is now in session. God save the United States of America and this honorable Tribunal.
There will be order in the Court.
ERWIN TSCHENTSCHER - (resumed) CROSS EXAMINATION (continued) BY MR. FULKERSON:
Q Now, yesterday, I believe you testified, witness, that only on one isolated occasion did you see a SD man the whole time that you were in Russia?
A Excuse me, I did not get the ending. At what occasion did you say?
Q (The question was repeated)
A Yes, that is correct, quite.
Q Now, you also testified yesterday, I believe, that at the time you left your outfit and went back to Dnjepopetrowsk, this was in November, according to your testimony that you had difficulty finding the divisional headquarters in Dnjepopetrowsk?
A No, no, that is wrong. It was a matter of finding a possibility of flying back, when I tried with an agency of the Luftwaffe.
Q Did the Wiking Division have men who went up to Dnjepopetrowsk on leave, for example, during this period?
A Dnjepopetrowsk was an outpost, an outpost of our division. There we had a camp where clothes were stocked, and in this outpost I spent the night.