We were in the middle of that marching column.
When we left the city limits of Zlotzow, several hundred meters behind the castle which was to the left of the road, on the large square, the baker company was located, and it was already in operation when we passed by there, and it was already baking bread. Somewhat further up ahead--it may have been two or three villages further, as far as I can recall-the butcher company was quartered.
If a bridge had existed there, then this could only have been a very unimportant and small bridge. Above all, I can not recall the slightest incident anymore which could have anything to do with the happenings which the witness Otto has described here.
Q What do you say with regard to the allegation by Otto that you, Tschontscher, on that spot leading to the road, together with the defendant Fanslau, threw a Jew into the swamp?
A This claim is completely invented. Such an incident did not take place there, nor did it take place anywhere else.
Q What do you say with regard to the statement wherein the witness says that this was a swamp with a stone edge?
A I can't say anything with regard to that because I was not present when such an incident occurred. However, the description seems to be contrary to all experience and logic, because if the bridge of which the witness had given us a very detailed description was to have a width from the witness stand to the attorneys' bench here, that amounts to approximately three meters in length. Then, such a bridge must have been raised to a certain extent when it led over the swamp, so that the interval there which was bridged over could have amounted to only 1½-2 meters. What kind of a swamp could have been below such a miniature bridge is very unclear to me. My fantasy is not sufficient for me to imagine that.
Furthermore, a swamp does not have any steep edges. I can imagine a little brook with swampy edges where, perhaps, you can sink up to your knees, but it is contrary to all my experiences, and, above all, I can not imagine that in such a small swamp-and Otto himself did not see any larger one--where large numbers of people are standing around the edges, that one person can sink below that swamp in a very few minutes.
Q The witness Otto has further stated that the vehicles had been stopped one behind each other very close to the bridge, so that he stopped directly behind your vehicle.
Just what was the state of affairs here?
A This description which the witness Otto gave here is completely improbable to anybody who has any experience in the leadership of convoys and convoys in general. Above all, that the leading vehicle had stopped only two meters away from where the obstacle was. Aside from the fact that I have already stated that we were going along in a big marching column together with other units, if I had been alone at the head of the column, I would have stopped about 50 meters before we reached such an obstacle, because, after all, we had to count on the fact that such an obstacle could not be removed, and then I had to take the precaution and leave so much space that the vehicles could be turned around and a different route taken.
Aside from that, the order of march given by Otto does not correspond to the facts. If Otto had been in one of the leading vehicles--and now I am referring to the trucks--then he could only have been in tenth place.
Furthermore, at the time we had the experience, which was new and rather embarrassing to us, that the Russian air force had a rather unpleasant superiority toward us. Especially in those days I can recall that different bombers attacked us fourteen times in succession, and we were trying very much to observe the interval which was proscribed in case of air attacks--a distance of 20 to 30 meters between vehicles.
Q How far would Otto's vehicle have been behind yours? According to his description, it was the first truck. According to your knowledge of the facts, where would he have been in the column if such an obstacle had arisen?
AAs the tenth vehicle he would have been at best 200 or 300 meters away from the bridge, if such an obstacle had existed.
Q What was the order of march? Can you still recall it clearly?
A The marching order remained always the same. I believe Fanslau had described it to us before. He stated that I usually had two couries on motorcycles preceding me, and I followed with my vehicle. Two were behind me. Then came the vehicle of Hauptsturmfuehrer Schaefer, who was my deputy at the time, and then followed the deputies of the field treasury and the battalion medical officer, and then came two other officers' vehicles. Then followed the car with the machine gun, which was to be used for air attacks, and then came the vehicle which Otto described as the Signal truck, which was a vehicle which we used as a mobile office, and only then Otto's car, which could have been behind that.
Q Did you know the witness Otto? Can you still recall him?
A When I looked at him for a while here, he again returned to my memory. I know him, and I know that he was with my unit.
Q Was he in your company, or was he only a member of the battalion?
A I can't say that anymore with certainty. In any case, he was a member of the battalion. What he states may be correct--that later on he was transferred from the Third Company to the First Company.
Q Now I come back once more to the description which Otto gave here. Do you still recall that description?
AAbout the bridge?
Q Yes.
A Yes.
Q He told us that it amounted to three meters in width, and he also described how these Jewish people were driven down there and how they were maltreated so that they should repair the bridge. According to your technical knowledge, is this a probability that this description is correct?
A I don't have any great experience in the technique used in the construction of bridges. However, it does not seem right to my common sense that a bridge which is three meters in length-and let us assume that it was completely broken--that it should need more than 15 wooden planks to completely rebuild the bridge.
Even if we assume that the whole incident was true, then it still appears highly improbable to me that 30 Jewish workers should be made to carry 15 railway logs until they were completely exhausted. Also, the other personnel which was used in order to rebuild this extremely small bridge, where he mentioned ten officers, 30 guards--altogether 85 men. This appears so illogical to me-
JUDGE PHILLIPS: Dr. Pribilla, isn't your witness taking over the prerogative of his counsel in attempting to argue the truthfulness of Otto's testimony, when he says he does not know anything about what happened, he has no recollection of it at all. That is your province, not his, to argue the probability of the truth of Otto's testimony, not the witness'. Confine your questions, please, to what he knows about what took place there and not argue the case. We haven't got time for that.
Q Well, Witness, you are not to go into the technical details here of the Witness Otto's testimony, but here you are only to refer to your own knowledge. Do you know anything about what the witness has described here, or any similar incident?
A I can answer that very briefly. I know nothing in the least about anything the witness Otto has stated here. Something of that sort did not happen at Zclozow in my presence. I don't know anything about it.
Q Did you witness any execution of Jews or killing of Jews at Zclozow?
A No.
Q Was Sturmfuehrer Braunagl, to which the Witness Otto referred, was he at Zclozow with the unit?
A No, I know quite certainly that Braunagl was located to the west of Lublin in the village of Josefo. Here he had an accident with a motorcycle and broke his ankle and he was sent to the hospital in Lublin. I visited him there and this may have been on the 26th of June, 1941, and I only saw Braunagl again in September when his wounds had healed and he returned to the unit.
Q Consequently, the village which you mentioned where Braunagl had his accident was far away from Russia?
A Yes, it is very far away. It was in Poland west of Lublin.
Q Did you always drive behind the Butcher and Baker Companies as the Witness Otto has described it, or was the marching order different?
A Well, we had to consider the situation. When the two companies went on ahead so that they could begin their operations before we came there -- and this happened quite frequently -- then the first company and the food column would come behind by themselves. When we left together, then the second and the third company would follow behind the first company.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, your marching order changed, didn't it, according to the circumstances. If a vehicle broke down or got stuck in the mud, which was very bad, or if it was struck by aircraft fire, that would change the order of vehicles, wouldn't it? You were fighting a battle. You weren't on parade out through the Ukraine.
THE WITNESS: Your Honor, whenever a vehicle fell out, which could not be taken along immediately, then it just remained by the side of the road wherever it happened to incur the damage and then repair squads which followed the division, where technical units were, either repaired it wherever it was possible or a wrecker would take it back up to the next motor repair pool.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, that would change your order of march, wouldn't it?
THE WITNESS: The marching order was not affected by that at all.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, the place of the vehicle in the column was changed. It had to drop out.
THE WITNESS: The marching column became somewhat shorter as a result of that; whenever a vehicle dropped out, then we arrived at our destination without this vehicle.
THE PRESIDENT: All I am trying to indicate is that you couldn't keep the precise order of your vehicles nor of the marching column when you were subject to fire and in combat.
THE WITNESS: Yes, Your Honor, after all, we were not a combat unit, which would normally spread out whenever we contacted the enemy.
THE PRESIDENT: You were in a combat area. You were being fired upon, weren't you?
THE WITNESS: It may have happened, or perhaps it did happen that as the result of an air attack or a bomb hit the vehicle could not move on, and then the vehicle would remain on the side of the road and it would come back to the column later on. If there was such a change in our point, -- and we are referring here particularly to the head of the column -- I have never experienced it.
Q Witness, when you went on in Zclozow from the bridge to the citadel did you see any dead Jews? Answer with yes or no.
A No. Also, with regard to these statements, I cannot recall having made any particular observations. It has already been stated that at Zclozow a short time before, or a relatively short time before, combat operations were under way, and it may be quite possible that somewhere along the road some dead Jews may have been lying around. Under such circumstances, and if you consider the fact that Zclozow is supposed to have suffered severely during the combat, I can't recall that any more, however; if these dead people were lying around, it is not improbable either that amongst these dead there may have been some Jews. However, I can't recall that any more.
Q Can't you recall either whether Jews were lying there dead as a result of maltreatment?
A Well, if I am to answer that, then we must base ourselves on the fact that I saw maltreatment there and, after all, whenever a dead man is lying by the side of the road, you can't say exactly what his cause of death was, and it wasn't as if in a peaceful territory you see a dead person you stop your vehicle and you get out of your vehicle to look at him. After all, the convoy has to go on. I must answer your question in the negative here.
Q You didn't see the craters either, to which the Witness Otto has referred, that 30 or 40 corpses were in. Didn't you see anything of it?
A Of course, I saw innumerable bomb craters, but I did not see any under these circumstances which have been mentioned here and in the way in which Otto has described it. However, I do recall Zclozow for another reason and that is why this story means something to me. When I passed through the city very slowly I heard about the incidents which have been discussed here already about the shooting of the hostages, and when my column was advancing slowly I went up to the castle for a while and, as I have already described, this happened in the early morning hours. Up there I did not see any military police nor did I see anybody else but I saw four or five inhabitants of the city -- that is, as far as I can recall, but I am quite certain that this number was up there. There were quite a few older men and a few crying women who ran along the rows of corpses in the castle yard. They were trying to locate members of their family. The corpses must have been dead already for quite some time, because the smell of decay was very bad and I did not approach any closer, but after some moments had passed I then left there and then I continued my trip and I followed my column and a short time later I met the Baker Company which I have already mentioned.
Q This was the same incident where you did not make any other observations than you mentioned?
A Yes, that is correct.
Q Can you still recall a town by the name of Bogdanowka?
A I can't recall Bogdanowka, or any other similar name.
Q What do you say about the fact that according to the description of Otto you are alleged to have set fire personally to a synagogue?
A In my entire life neither there nor anywhere else in the world have I ever entered a synagogue. I have never seen one on the inside. I have never set fire to one nor have I ever given an order that a synagogue was to be put afire.
Nobody could have seen that, because it never happened.
Q Did you ever hear anything about the fact that Oberscharfuehrer Senn shot three Jews there?
A I must answer that in the negative already for the reason which I stated before. Neither there nor anywhere else did I hear anything about that.
Q What do you know about the death of Standartenfuehrer Weckerle? Is it correct that after his death an order was issued by the division administrative officer, according to which it was not punishable any more to kill Jews?
A No. I only know that Weckerle died in combat. I heard two different descriptions about his death and at the time it was discussed whether it was a Russian soldier with a German steel helmet on or without a German helmet and whether he had used some trick which was not authorized. However, the fact never was mentioned that he was murdered by Jews. This description I have heard only for the first time here. It was the custom in our Army and I presume probably it is the custom in any Army that when an outstanding member of the unit dies a so-called order of the day is issued, which recalls his life and things of that sort. That may have happened in the case of Weckerle. However, I can't even recall that any more. However, it is entirely impossible that the division administrative officer issued such order, and it is not true that an order of that sense was ever issued, according to which it was not punishable any more to kill Jews. After all, there is no logical connection with this, because Weckerle, according to the general rule, died during combat.
Q What do you say with regard to the statement of Otto, according to which Hauptsturmfuehrer Schenkel is alleged to have said that in a division order of the day it had been ordered that the supply battalion was to assemble Jews and to have them transported to ghettos.
A I have already stated before that the supply battalion had too much work to do, and it did not have any time left for such spare-time duties. After all, vehicles would have been needed for that and they were loaded with food. In the area of Tarnopol we carried out our chief baking and slaughtering operations, because up to that time the division had to live off their marching rations so to speak, and the accommodations at that time of the Butcher Company which was supposed to have been on the Southern edge of the city of Tarnopol, I cannot recall ever having seen it. This company went up so far ahead, because Tarnapol was attacked by Russian bombers in short sequence, and I believe I can also recall that in the city an Army slaughter house was being operated for which only some personnel from the Butcher company was furnished. Perhaps only slaughter personnel who held a higher rank in the butcher company was furnished for that purpose.
THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Pribilla, we will take the recess, please.
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal will recess for about 15 minutes.
(A recess was taken)
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal is again is session.
BY DR. PRIBILLA:
Q. Witness now we come to Zhitomir. There together with baker and slaughter companies you are supposed to have lived in the parachute barracks.
A. No, there barracks mean nothing to me. I only know that the baker company definitely was stationed in the town in a barracks or a school. I don't exactly know where the slaughtering company was, probably there too, and the first company that is the V office, was outside of Zhitomir in a farm. That is to say once could view the city from the heights, from the farm It is not true as the witness says, that I was there, that he saw vehicles of the V office there who were permanently there, and that I was a member of one of those companies not that I had disciplined a member of that company because of drunkenness.
Q. That is, you were on a farm outside of Zhitomir?
A. Yes. I was not able to serve at that time. I was suffering from an attack of Russian dysentery and I was sent Skwira to be evacuated, because there the advance commands were already present, and it was blamed there were better opportunities to house me and take care of me, for on that farm we were housed only very primitively.
Q. Witness, it is then quite out of the question that at that time you visited the baker and butcher companies who were possibly in the barracks, in the house?
A. No, I was not there.
Q. And why?
A. Because of my sickness. I may add to this that when the three companies were not stationed together in one place but were more or less separated, all according to the conditions there, it was obviously very difficult for me, if not impossible together and exactly see where the other two companies were located. We only had motorcycle couriers between those who told me what the other two companies had available in the form of bread, meat and sausage.
Q. Then you cannot say anything about whether in Zhitomir the baker company employed Jews in carrying water or baking bread?
A. No, not from my own knowledge. I don't think that it was necessary for the company had two large water trucks of 5,000 liters with two pumps so that such manual labor was absolutely senseless.
Q. What do you know about the alleged incident in which Oberscharfuehrer Sirk is supposed to have shot six Jews in a barn? Did you hear anything about it, or see anything about it?
A. No, I don't know anything about it.
Q. Do you remember the camp site?
A. Yes.
Q. What were the conditions there?
A. On barracks? I remember this very exactly. We were once stationed there for a longer period, approximately ten days. Biala-Zierkew was quite a large Russian university town. The baker company was located about around the center of the town. I was once in that place, and in this case I know that the housing facilities there consisted of a Russian Air Corps barracks. At least that is what I was told. I don't have any special basis for this. The first and third companies were located on the edge of town in a grocery and vinegar factory.
A. Then according to your description all three companies were in barracks in firm building, whereas the witnesses said they were in a bivouac there?
A. No, it is to be noted here that I believe since the invasion of Russian territory that is agter Lemberg was taken, all these three units were first located together in one town, and a bivouac was not necessary, if only for the fact that we had buildings there. On a bivouac one generally understand sleeping in tents or in the vehicles outside of buildings.
Q. What do you have to say about the incident which has been described here that you were only dressed in pants and that the shirt was hanging out, that you were supposed to have run after a Jew and shot him?
A. It is expressly claimed by me that I must call this completely an invention. I think about it in vain, which incident could have been manufactured into such an event. It is no proof if I mention it here, but for everyone who knows me, well, the alleged dress must seem altogether incredible and unusual. I have never been dressed negligently, and I have never been seen like that. The coming in of a stranger, allegedly a Jew, I cannot imagine, because our house was fenced in, and there was a guard at the gate who would have not let anyone in. Beside, this factory was not located on a thoroughfare where it would be that such transports were brought through, but it was a blind alley which ended at that factory so that no one who had no business there could get there at all.
Q. Therefore, nothing has happened which has been described here?
A. No. We had many other excitements there, to be sure, such as air attacks, and I know that a shot down Russian bomber fell down on our house with all its bombs, and there were all kind of damages and fires that resulted from this, and a part of the motor landed in a Russian farm where there were six or eight dead on account of it.
Q. But that you shot anyone is possible, is it?
A. I can only say unequivocally that this sounds incredible, that during the entire war I did not fire a single shot on a human being. I don't even think I shot an animal, and in my entire life I have never shot any human being, and thus this Stamminger, this Witness Stamminger who was mentioned, could not have been endangered by shots coning from me. I haven't heard either that anyone else had done that.
Q. Witness, do you recall Fiodorke here, and when were you there?
A. The village's name was Eiodorke. We got there after the events at Smela which have already been described, and it was very quiet there. We really had a few untroubled and peaceful days there. The town was noteworthy and very charming, if you consider the monotonous Russian landscape. Such an incident, or even approximately such an incident did not take place there either.
Q. What do you have to say about the alleged incident about Gisch where you were supposed to have ordered a Jew to be shot?
Even this is a puzzle to me. I simply don't know and I surely never ordered anything like that. I don't know if anyone else ordered it either and I cannot find any motive for it. In this connection, I would like to point to another circumstance. There was only a sizeable Jewish population in the former Russian Poland and in all these regions I did not even notice any Jews nor did I even meet any. They were purely farm territory, farming regions, while the Jews usually belonged to the trade people.
BY THE PRESIDENT:
Q When you talk about former Russian territory, do you exclude the Ukraine?
A No, your Honor. I mean the region of Lemberg, or south of Zlotzow or near Tarnopol, what I would call Schepetowka. There the of Russian frontier begins that is the Shitomir was already the old Russian Ukraine territory.
Q Then there were plenty of Jews in the old Russian territory?
A I did not notice any. Perhaps in the cities, but I stated that I did not get to any but three cities and we were always on flat land.
Q You saw Jews in Zlotzow and Tarnopol?
A Yes, but it was in the Polish territory.
Q And after you went east of Tarnopol, you say there were not so many Jews?
A Well, I don't know, but I did not see any.
Q Do you realize the city of Kiew is not very far from Shitomir?
A I did not mean anything to me at the time.
Q Kiew?
A I was never in Kiew.
Q Well, do you know that Kiew was almost exclusively a Jewish city?
A So I am hearing that for the first time, your Honor.
Q It was a large city?
A Yes that it was a large old Russian city - that I know.
Q But you did not got to Kiew?
A I never was in Kiew in my life.
Q Your route was to the south of it?
A Yes, first we were supposed to go to Kiew, but we turned off suddenly to the south east of Smela at Biala Zierkew and it could not have been very far from Kiew for I heard reports that the Russian airplanes which often attacked us there came from Kiew, that may have been 80 kilometers away.
Q You finally got to Dnjepopetrowsk, did you not?
A In the direction of Dnjepopetrowsk we never were in Dnjepopetrowsk with our battalions, your Honor.
Q Did you get any further east than that?
A Yes, it was already mentioned that we were about 80 kilometers from Dnjepopetrowsk, then finally we went on northeastward and at Krementschcik we crossed the Dnepr River, on the other Dnepr shore we marched approximately parallel to the river to Novo Moskowsk.
Q Where were you when you were detached from your battalion at the end of December?
A On the 21st of November on the way back I flew from Zinov.
Q That is where you were detached from your command?
A Yes. My battalion or my company was north of Taganrog, on the Black Sea, on the Easter tip of the Sea of Asow, which is north of Taganrock, from there I started on my trip back in my car.
Q Did you got to Rostow?
A No on the day when I went to Rostow, it was just taken by another division.
Q And how far away were you from Rostow?
A I cannot give it to you in kilometers. I was on the heights of Taganrog. I don't know whether the estimate is correct, but it might have been 80 kilometers or more, but it must have been a considerable distance.
BY DR. PRIBILLA:
Q Witness, I would like to ask you once more to give the exact date and time when you left the supply battalion?
A I was very suddenly recalled or rather I got the order to get winter clothing for the division, that was on 20 or 21 November, 1941. The town where we were at the time was Milost Kurakino, a double name.
Q This town of Milost Kurakino was situated on the north of Taganrok?
A Yes.
Q North of the sea of Asow?
A Yes.
Q Witness, please describe exactly how your return trip came off when you left Milost Kurakino on the 20th of 21st of November?
A On that day I left with my official car and had all my baggage with me, because I was told I was not to return to my division, and travelled south the Dnjepre, that is at Saporoshe where I spent the night, north of Saporoshe. I recall because there for the first time I entered a Russian farm, which I avoided thus far. Continuing my trip my car was held up by mechanical difficulties at Sine Nikowo and I had to continue in a vehicle of a stange army postal unit. I had with me the Battalion tailor, who was sent back to Germany because of illness. His name was Kranzner. I remember that the season was abnormal as the Russians told us there was still no snow, but there had been considerable rain. The roads were muddy, that is whatever one calls roads in Russia, the ground there is firm like asphalt when there is no rain and after a half hour's rain one stands in mud up to one's knees. When the cold suddenly broke out in the night on the 20th of November, these roads suddenly froze up. That was the reason why my vehicle damaged. When I came to Dnjepopetrowsk, there was no snow.
Q Was that on the next evening, you said that you spent the night?
A That must have been the 21st of November. In Sine Nikowo I did not spend any time and it was in a village near Saporoshe where I spent the night.
Q And the next night?
A From Saporoshe I arrived at Dnjepvopetrowsk, I arrived at twilight which I still recall because in this twilight I had difficulty finding the base of the Viking division. I cannot give you any more details, but of cour I must have come across the birdge. It would not have been possible otherwise, but it does not mean anything to me anymore what the bridge was like and what conditions were.
Q Then you arrived in Dnjepvopetrowsk in the evening?
A Yes, it was just beginning to get dark.
Q When did you continue from Dnjepvopetrowsk?
A The next morning between seven and eight, I left with an air transport plane and flew into the Reich. My companion Kranzner remained back there, because we had no room and then came by rail two weeks later.
Q What did you do toward the end of the year and when did you take up your new position?
A I only took care of the winter cloth supply for the division. Fanslau and Schaefer had already prepared this in an official trip. I merely had to see that the transport was arranged for them. I went on a Christmas furlough until the end of the year to my home town and then on 2 January 1942, I took up my new office in Obersalzberg.
Q. Did you hear anything of a Einsatzkommando VI in Dnjepopetrowsk, or did you hear at all that a Einsatzkommando was active there?
A. No, not in the least. From the headquarters of the Wiking Division, I went to town by foot. The corps command of the Luftwaffe was also located in town and I went there to talk to an officer about my passage on a plane and I only know that in Dnjepopstrowsk, as far as I recall, the street lights were burning which was very unusual during war because of the blackout, but the town made a very peaceful impression. I didn't know anyone there. I didn't talk to any one, and I didn't stay anywhere because I was pretty tired from my trip and wanted to continue the next day.
Q. And that was definitely on the 21st of 22nd of November, 1941?
A. Yes, there's no doubt about that.
Q. And there was no snow and it was not December?
A. No, it is noteworthy that there was no snow. It was quite warm during the day, only it was very cold during the morning hours. I believe I recall that when I took this short walk to the corps command of the Luftwaffe that I didn't even wear a coat.
Q. I have no further questions.
THE PRESIDENT: Cross examination by other defense counsel?
The prosecution may cross examine.
CROSS EXAMINATION BY MR. FUIKERSON:
Q. Witness, I think that I remember you said you gave three lectures to individual companies during the activation phase of the division, and then you gave one lecture to the whole battalion.
A. That was during the time of the establishment of the division at Dachau. That must have been in February or March 1941.
Q. Now, you say that you drew for your lecture material on various magazine and newspaper articles?