THE PRESIDENT: I think he ought to have the affidavit in Book XVII before him.
THE WITNESS: I do, your Honor.
Q You have the original in the original German, Mr. Wolff?
A Yes, I have a copy here.
Q Will you tell us what took place in the interrogation?
A I asked the Witness Schwarz whether he could tell me anything about the conditions in the camp Wewelsburg and about the prisoners that were employed there for this enterprise. The witness told me that he had been there approximately 14 days and that he had made personal observations and also had been told by his fellow guards the incidents described in this affidavit.
Q Did he tell you what jobs he carried out in the camp?
A Yes, he did. He told me that he was on guard duty there and that he also at one time worked in the office and that he was taken sick then and returned to the hospital at Wewelsburg.
Q Did he tell you anything about seeing coffins?
A Yes, he did. He personally saw them.
Q Is that what he said?
A That is what he said.
Q. Did he tell you anything about seeing Klein, the Defendant Klein?
A Yes, he did. Towards the beginning of the interrogation, I asked the witness Schwarz to identify all of the defendants in the Pohl case. A complete set of pictures which I had along was given to him with the names covered. The Witness Schwarz picked out the picture of the Defendant Klein. However, he stated that he did not know his SS rank.
Q He said he had seen Klein in and around the camp?
A Yes, he did.
Q Did he tell you that any of the things that are in the affidavit were his assumptions? 6117
A He never made any such statement, that they were assumptions. He stated that they were either his personal knowledge, what he had seen, or else what he had been told by his fellow guards.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: Mr. Wolff, in this very affidavit he indicates that the affiant is merely giving the opinion of others. He says "It is known to me that prisoners who in the opinion of the people in command", so, at least, in that particular statement he was giving you someone else's opinion, was he not?
THE WITNESS: That is quite correct, Your Honor. He did. However, he stated that that was well known by all of them.
Q (By Mr. Robbins) Did he say this matter was discussed in the camp?
A Yes, he did.
Q Did he say he had talked to the other people in the camp about it?
A He said that during his stay there it was openly discussed amongst the guards.
Q Now tell us how this affidavit came about. Was there a transcript made of the interrogation? First, was there a transcript made?
A There was no transcript made of the interrogation, because this affidavit was drawn up in its original form in the presence of Witness Schwarz. In other words, he dictated some of it and then after he got through I dictated some of this affidavit, asking the Witness Schwarz expressly to stop me immediately if there is one word which does not comply with what he had to say.
Q And then I take it there was a typist present?
A That is correct. There was a lady secretary given to me by the Dachau War Crimes Section.
Q Were there any other witnesses present when the affidavit was given?
A There was a Baltic guard.
Q Was Schwarz subjected to any kind of pressure?
A He was not. He talked freely. He had no reason to believe that he was under pressure.
Q Then how long did this entire interrogation last?
A This interrogation lasted approximately 3/4 of an hour to an hour.
Q And then at the end of the interrogation the lady typed the affidavit as dicated to her by you and Schwarz?
A That is correct.
Q And then a copy was given to him?
AAll eight copies of this interrogation -- the original and seven copies of this interrogation were given to the witness. He corrected each one of them, as the Tribunal can see, he did correct in one case and affixed his name to it.
A. The original and seven copies of this interrogation were given to the witness. He corrected each one of them; as the Tribunal can see, he did correct in one case, and put his name to it.
Q. Did he sign at the bottom of each page?
A. That is correct.
Q. And did you see him read the entire affidavit?
A. I did.
DR. BERGOLD: I believe I have no further questions.
EXAMINATION BY DR. BERGOLD:
Q. Witness, you testified just now that you heard from Schwartz that he had been there for only a fortnight.
A. That is correct.
Q. Why did you not make that part of the affidavit. After all, that is of importance.
A. I have already thought about thid fact, and I came to the conclusion that from the story this witness told me I was fully satisfied, whether the man had been there one week or two weeks, because he had ample time to observe all this.
Q. Did he not tell you that during that fortnight he was ill?
A. The witness stated that he had been sick some of the time.
Q. He told me that he had been ill throughout that period.
A. The witness stated to me that he had not been sick during the entire time.
Q. Witness, did Schwarz not tell you that he was not in a position to enter on this, and did you not tell him that all this had been found out long ago, and that he could assume that this was true?
A. I did not say any such thing.
Q. Then I shall insist for the witness Schwarz to appear here because he says all these things he did not even know - whether klein was the superior of Haas, and you told him he must have been. Klein was a Sturmbannfuehrer and was, therefore, the superior officer.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: Are you making a statement to him, Dr. Bergold, or are you asking a question?
DR. BERGOLD: This is a question.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: Then put it in the form of a question. You just put a statement to the witness.
BY DR. BERGOLD:
Q. Is it not correct - you told Schwarz that Klein was the superior officer of Haas because he had been higher in rank?
A. On this question, I recall that the witness Klein stated to me -- excuse me -- that the witness Schwarz stated to me that Klein has lived at the castle, which surprised me very much, and I asked the witness what Klein's position was, and he told me that to his knowledge Klein was the superior of the camp commander Haas.
Q. Then I must tell you that Schwarz told me that you had been the one to tell him that.
A. As a matter of fact, defense counsel, when I came to Dachau to interrogate the witness Schwarz I did not even know the camp commander was Haas. I did not even know the name.
Q. Quite so. But that doesn't prove anything. But once you heard this, you told him Klein was a Sturmbannfuehrer, and you told him then he must have been the superior officer of Haas who, as you said, was Hauptsturmfuehrer?
A. I did tell the witness Schwarz that Klein was a Strumbannfuehrer, which the record shows, and then Klein told me that he lived at the castle -
JUDGE PHILLIPS: Schwarz told you.
WITNESS: I beg your pardon.
A. (continuing) Then Klein told me that he lived at the castle.
Q. Did you not tell him that Klein was a Sturmbannfuehrer, or Haas a Huptsturmfuehrer?
A. Correct.
Q. Is it not correct, and was it not ever said by witness Schwarz, that all these things were only his conclusions?
A. The word assumption was never uttered by the man. Either it was through stories, or direct conversations with his fellow guards, or what he had seen personally.
Q. Witness, a question about your veracity. You interrogated witness Grosch, who had been interrogated here as a witness, and also repudiated the affidavit which he gave to you?
A. Yes, I did.
DR. BERGOLD: The Tribunal will recall that the witness Grosch gave an affidavit here and described it here, in front of you, as incorrect, and based on wrong assumptions. He described that these things he had never said.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: You may answer him if you desire. He made a statement here about you. You have a right to answer if you desire.
WITNESS: I cannot say anything but that the statement taken from the witness Grosch in Dachau approximately at the same time --it was the same TDY trip, was taken under the correct procedure and under the same circumstances, and had no--and I exerted no pressure or any assumptions on Mr. Grosch.
DR. BERGOLD: Another witness is present here in this building who has also said that you put him under pressure. You exert a lot of pressure, don't you, witness? Unfortunately, my colleague Ratz is not present at the moment, but his witness Reuther, also felt you put him under pressure.
WITNESS: Will you repeat the name of the person, please? I
DR. BERGOLD: Reuther.
WITNESS: I don't remember ever having talked to that man.
DR. BERGOLD: I see. I have no further questions to this witness.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: You were not asked about all the points of the affidavit, particularly as set out in the affidavit of the witness Schwarz on the 25th day of February 47, - but all the other statements contained therein in substance, the statements and evidence given to you in this interrogation, and incorporated in the affidavit by you.
WITNESS: I am afraid I don't quite understand you, Your Honor. Other statements?
JUDGE PHILLIPS: I said that you were not specifically asked about all the contents of the affidavit of Schwarz. You were only asked about parts of it.
WITNESS: That is correct.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: But I want to know if the others which you were not asked about, the statements and facts as contained in the affidavit, were also given you at the time and are contained in the true form as given you by the witness.
WITNESS: That is correct, Your Honor, it was.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: The whold affidavit?
WITNESS: That is correct, Your Honor.
DR. BERGOLD: If the Tribunal please, in view of what the witness has testified to I request that the witness Schwarz should be brought here from Dachau in order to test the truth of all this. It is my opinion that one witness does not always reveal the whole truth. After all, it was a principle of the Romans -- audiatur et altera pars.
I therefore request that the witness Schwarz should be called here. I am sorry to delay the trial.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, the Tribunal will take your request under advisement and rule on it tomorrow morning.
EXAMINATION BY MR. ROBBINS:
Q: Mr. Wolff, you were asked about an interrogation of Grosch. Is it true that a transcript was made on the occasion of one of your interrogations of Grosch?
A: That is correct.
Q: You had two interrogations with him, is that correct?
A: That is correct.
MR. ROBBINS: May it please the Tribunal, the transcript of the interrogation which was made of Grosch has been processed and is in Book 24 or Book 25 -- I have forgotten which, which will be made available to the Tribunal today. I think it will reveal in part the procedure which the interrogator followed.
BY MR. ROBBINS:
Q: I should like to ask you about the other interrogation during which a transcript was not made. During that interrogation, as far as you remember did the witness Grosch tell you that the statements that he was making to you were only his assumptions?
A: No, he did not.
MR. ROBBINS: I have no further questions.
(The witness excused)
HORST KLEIN, the defendant, resumed the stand and testified as follows:
DIRECT EXAMINATION - Resumed BY DR. BERGOLD:
Q: Witness, what were the purposes of the Koenig Heinrich Foundation which you mentioned this morning on direct examination?
A: The Koenig Heinrich Foundation had the purpose of arranging for ceremonies in the cathedral at Quedlinburg, and later on to help to keep up the cathedral.
The cathedral in Quedlinburg is a very old place of worship. King Henry -- Koenig Heinrich -- is buried nearby. He is one of the best known medieval German emperors.
Q: We are approaching now the period of the foundation of the WVHA. When you were incorporated into the WVHA did your activities change in any sense?
A: No, it did not. Only in the summer of 1942, a few months after the foundation of the WVHA, the Association of Homes became part of my duties.
Q: What was the purpose of this Association of Homes?
A: That Association - its correct name is Recreational Homes for Natural Modes of Life - had the purpose to establish recreational homes for women and children and to administer the so-called SS Hospital Departments, which are rest places of the Waffen-SS.
Q: Did the Berg Haus Sudelfeld near Bayrisch-Zell have a special position within that Association?
A: Yes. A few months after the foundation of the Homes Association, the Berg Haus Bayrischzell was put into connection with the association of Homes. The form chosen was that the exchequer of the Berg Haus was taken over by the Association as the legal person, and that the assignments of guests was done by the Association. For the rest, Obergruppenfuehrer Pohl ordered, - he had also ordered the previous arrangement that Hauptsturmfuehrer Teato, the manager of the home, should continue to hold an independent position. Teato's position was extremely powerful because I think he was a personal friend of Pohl's, Frank's, and Loerner's. Teato had been there since about 1938 when the Berg Haus was first opened, and he had been the manager.
A detachment of inmates also existed at the Berg Haus, from when onwards I am not quite sure. That detachment was not used for the home, but for agricultural purposes for which Teato had as a side line. That detachment was in operation when the Berg Haus became part of the Association of Recreational Homes, and there were never any negotiations about the inmates either through the Association or Office W VIII.
DR. BERGOLD: If the Tribunal please, in this connection I wish to refer to Exhibit 16, an affidavit by Gerhard Maurer. He was an inmate who worked in that detachment. I am sorry - his name is not Maurer, but Ruff. I am talking about Exhibit 15, Document No. 15; and he confirms that people were living under decent conditions, were well fed, that it was only a very small detachment.
Q: Witness, I am interested to hear from you about this -- We had a main department for special tasks, which later on was to become Office W VIII - Special Tasks. The term "special treatment" has become a notorious one. Can you tell me what the word "special" meant in your case?
A: In my case this term "special task" meant separate tasks. It should, therefore, be translated "separated tasks."
DR. BERGOLD: May I add here, since the interpreter corrected and translated correctly in the document it always says "special tasks."
Q: What was meant to be said was that your tasks were outside the offices?
A: Yes, the office, the duties of Office W VIII were outside the scope of the WVHA. They were neither Reich tasks troop administration, nor were they tasks which could be compared with the other tasks of the W offices.
Q: Witness, I shall now talk about the Wewelsburg problems. How was that agency organized with reference to Wewelsburg?
DR. BERGOLD: If the Tribunal please, there is a chart hero, which is Exhibit No. 1, in front of my document book.
WITNESS: Dr. Bergold, before we discuss the details of this chart may I perhaps make a small correction. It says on the chart "Concentration Camp Wewelsburg 1939 to 1942". That is not correct. A concentration camp in Wewelsburg, as I have seen from our documents here, existed at the earliest as from November 1941.
DR. BERGOLD: Please, it was a labor camp also?
WITNESS: Yes, it was a labor camp before, but the organization about the separating line is only correct for the period of time after the formal incorporation of the inspectorate of concentration camps into the WVHA; but, after all, the Tribunal knows all about these things and I need not go into details here.
BY DR. BERGOLD:
Q: What was the most important agency in Wewelsburg?
A: The commandant of the castle, SS Obergruppenfuehrer and General of the Waffen-SS Taubert. He had the same rank as Obergruppenfuehrer Pohl, or General Wolff who was a witness here. Obergruppenfuehrer Taubert was chief of the Office Wewelsburg on the personal staff of the ReichsfuehrerSS. That becomes clear from the right corner of the plan. I might add here that the actual conditions would be described more precisely if you put the personal staff nearer to Himmler, in the middle of the document, because the position was that the main office was regarded as the superior agency of all the other main offices. Within the Wewelsburg office there was a construction management of the Wewelsburg School under its leader SS STandardenfuehrer Bartels.
Bartels was only under the Office Wewelsburg. He had no position under the WVHA. My work - that is to say, that of the Office W VIII which appears on the plan, consisted of two things. First, on Bartel's request I had to sign contracts for the purchase of real estate as the legal expert with the farmers, whoever owned land in Wewelsburg. Two, I had to transfer money to Bartels. Bartels requested monthly a lump sum, for instance 100 thousand marks, or 200 thousand marks, and hat money was transferred to his account with the Deutsche Bank in Paderborn. Bartels had the full responsibility as far as the accounting and the factual side was concerned for the Wewelsburg construction project. That arrangement was laid down in writing between Obergruppenfuehrer Pohl as the manager of the monument society and Bartels. Bartels was Himmler's personal architect. He received his orders direct from Himmler either when Himmler visited Wewelsburg or when Bartels went to see Himmler in Berlin, or even in his field headquarters. I only attended one conference between Bartels and Himmler, that was in March of 1940, as I remember it; General Wolff has already testified about that. Bartels' position with Himmler was extremely informational. He knew extremely well how to handle Himmler.
Q: What about the position of the concentration camp, or labor camp, at Wewelsburg in that organization?
A: Until the outbreak of war there was in Wewelsburg a camp of the Reich Labor Service. Does the Tribunal wish me to explain what the labor service was? The Reich Labor Service was an organization where young men served before they were called up to the army, and together they worked on large agricultural schemes, draining of moors, or road building.
This was done on a voluntary basis. When war broke out -- Is it sufficient as a definition?
THE PRESIDENT: I think so.
A. When war broke out, the Reich Labor Service was taken away from Wewelsburg. Then a small detachment of inmates, numbering, as I heard about sixty, came to Wewelsburg. That detachment was brought there on the basis of a visit which Himmler paid in the summer of 1941 to Wewelsburg; and I heard that it was then increased to about 1,000 men. In my affidavit I gave the figure as only three hundred. My knowledge about the camp was then confined to the monthly reports by the building management; and in those monthly reports only inmates were listed who really were allocated to some type of labor. I had thought that figure was identical with the actual strength of the camp; but I later on heard from Wewelsburg recently that I have made a mistake on this point.
In the autumn of 1941, probably in November, this camp was declared to be a concentration camp; and it existed in that form until the spring of 1943. As I have seen from the documents here, it must have been in the spring of 1943 that it was dissolved. I have heard here that the inmates were transferred to Bergen-Belsen. Commandant Haas was also transferred; and about fifty Jehovah's witnesses remained behind in Wewelsburg. They were allowed to move freely there. Whether those inmates were used by the construction management itself or for the whole of the school is beyond my knowledge. The camp was later on used for people who were being resettled.
Q. Well, now, witness, you haven't told us how it was made part of the organization, the labor camp.
A. Yes, the camp as a labor camp was apparently subordinated to a different concentration capo. I think it must have been Buchenwald. Once it was changed into a concentration camp, it must have been immediately under the inspectorate of the concentration camps as it is listed here on the chart. After the concentration camp was terminated in the spring of 1943, the inmates probably were then again subordinated to Buchenwald; but I am not absolutely certain. The commandant of the camp was the above-mentioned Hauptsturmfuehrer Haas.
Obergruppenfuehrer Taubert, as the most senior officer of the garrison, was Haas's superior. I myself was never Haas's superior, nor could I be, because Haas as a Hauptsturmfuehrer of the Waffen SS was a soldier, whereas I was not in the Waffen SS, and as a member of the Allgemeine SS could not be the superior of a soldier.
Also, when I signed my affidavit in about the beginning of February and when I had made a remark to that effect, the interrogation officer, Dr. Ortmann, told me I need not make any statements about my relations to Haas. He said that the prosecution knew that a W Office Chief could never be the superior officer of a concentration camp commandant.
Q. You forgot to mention relations between the construction management and the Wewelsburg concentration or labor camp. What about that?
A. The construction management under Bartels was not the superior agency of Haas. All it had to do was request labor from Haas and then it could there and then tell the agency, "This wall has to be built today," or some such project. Over and above that, the construction management could not tell Haas anything.
Q. Could it not request an exact number of inmates? Didn't they have to say how many inmates they wanted?
A. I don't think that the construction management was in a position to say, "I want so and so many inmates per day". What they had to do was to rely on just how many inmates Haas could give them per day. But I did not attend these negotiations; and I cannot give you any authentic information.
DR. BERGOLD: In this connection I should like to draw the Court's attention to the fact that the affidavits of Herr Steuer and Herr Kraemer, Exhibits 7 and 8, unanimously confirm the fact that Klein was not the superior officer of Haas and had nothing to do with the concentration camp as such. Herr Kraemer was a member of the construction management; and Herr Steuer was, as it were, the defendant's secretary.
THE PRESIDENT: I have a question, Dr. Bergold.
EXAMINATION BY THE PRESIDENT:
Q. Witness, did you say that you were never a member of the Waffen SS?
A. Yes.
Q. You remained, then, a member of the Allgemeine SS?
A. Yes.
Q. And you never held a rank in the Waffen SS?
A. I once received an order to report to the Waffen SS by the middle of February 1945 as an Untersturmfuehrer of the Waffen SS, which is equivalent to the rank of a lieutenant; but I opposed that order and succeeded in having it rescinded. I shall explain that later on.
Q. At any rate, while you were Chief of W/VIII you were not a member of the SS, of the Waffen SS?
A. Not a member of the Waffen SS; but I was a member of the Allgemeine SS.
BY DR. BERGOLD:
Q. Witness, who carried out the construction in Wewelsburg? Was it the construction management in Wewelsburg, or who was it?
A. First of all, I don't know for certain who built the labor camp. It was either Bartels or the Reich Labor Service, when the inmates began to arrive in the camp. While the labor camp existed, I don't know whether any nor how many constructions were carried out for the camp itself. The construction management during that period of time, as I see it, was directed either from Oranienburg, the inspectorate, or by Bartels himself in charge. I am not quite sure about these things. During the period of time when Wewelsburg was a concentration camp, a new construction management under Office Group C must have carried out the constructions. I did not have any conversations with the members of that constructions.
I did not have any conversations with the members of that construction management. Once when after the summer of 1941 Wewelsburg was to be extended I received the order by Herr Bartels to have contingents for the barracks procured for Bartels. I did not carry out the order; and the excuse I used was that I could not get hold of any raw material contingents.
DR. BERGOLD: In this connection I might point out that according to the affidavit of Herr Steuer Klein 6, Bartels somehow obtained the barracks himself. Steuer, who is very precisely informed about the matters, says the secretary was in a position to confirm this.
Q. Witness, who led the negotiations concerning the request and employment of inmates?
A. Inmates were requested by Bartels or Taubert after their negotiations. They addressed themselves directly to the inspectorate in Oranienburg, or I assume even that Himmler had ordered that this should be addressed to the inspectorate.
Q. Did you?
A. I myself did not lead any such negotiations.
Q. Did the company or any employee of the company?
A. No, they did not.
Q. Now, I shall refer to your own affidavit, which is Document 1929. I'm sorry. I had to borrow the copy. Do you have the exhibit number? The colleague from whom I borrowed this copy did not enter the exhibit number.
A. It's Exhibit Number 20.
Q. In that affidavit you have admitted that the negotiations concerning the inmates might possibly have been led by your agency. Can you tell me anything about that?
A. Yes, this is how that sentence came about. The interrogating officer put it to me that, as I mentioned before, I had negotiations about raw material contingents with Kammler, which was an exception. He told me, "If you have discussed raw material contingents, surely you must have negotiated also about inmates; these negotiations must have been through you, at least."
I did not remember those negotiations sufficiently clearly to be in a position to deny that possibility altogether. Meanwhile my memory has been refreshed; and I am in a position to say today that no such negotiations were made through me.
Q. After all, you only conceded that the possibility existed?
A. Yes, quite. I was not in a position to exclude the possibility altogether at that time.
Q. Now, tell me, did you ever enter the Wewelsburg camp?
A. No.
Q. Never at all?
A. No.
Q. In this connection I'd like to ask you, did you ever reside in Wewelsburg?
A. I did not spend one single night of my whole life in Wewelsburg.
Q. What did you have to do with the agencies in Wewelsburg?
What did the so-called Monument Society have to do with it?
A. First of all, I had to transfer the funds to Bartels for the construction projects in the manner which I have described. Bartels requested those sums as lump sums without telling me what he was going to use them for. He could dispose of the money as he liked, nor did I have the possibility of checking up on his expenditures. Bills remained in Wewelsburg; and the only thing which I received back from Bartels were figures about the expenditures, which I received monthly, for me to make those figures part of the monthly balance sheet of the company. I could not refuse the money to Bartels, nor could I protest against anything he might wish to do. Then I had to carry out the purchase of land in Wewelsburg. What happened there was that the construction management led the preliminary negotiations. They informed me when these negotiations were approaching a conclusion; and I then went to Wewelsburg in order to conclude the contract as the legal consultant.
At the beginning of this work, they were only small pieces of land near the castle itself. Later on the plans of Himmler and Bartels for this project grew. Every time Himmler came, the plans were just about doubled. Himmler got Speer to say that he was ready to help under the law for the reconstruction of German cities. Shall I give you the details there?