Q.- That's enough, witness. Now we want to get along to the main subject. How did you get into professional relations with the SS?
A.- I tried in the course of my training as assessor to get a position. It was approximately 1936 that I tried to have myself taken over into the position of a Referendar of the Government, that is to say, with the Internal Administration. My application was rejected because, as I heard later, the Personnel Referent of the Prussian Ministry of Interior von Wedelstaedt took the view that for the Internatl Administration I was politically undesirable because my father as Landrat was not considered politically desirable either. After I took my assessor examination I look around for an appointment. I wanted to work for private industry but apart from the opportunities which I discovered, and which my sister described here, I did not find a job. Then I worked for the Luerkopp-Werke in Bielefeld as an apprentice in their administration. Finally, I saw an advertisement where under a cipher number a position was offered as a legal assistant to an SS industry. It was an assessor they wanted. Before I had been offered a job in the Administration of Justice, Prison Administrator, but I refused the offer because the administration of prisons was a thing I didn't like. When I applied for the job I had seen what the task was. The result was that I obtained a job with the Society for the Promotion and Care of German Cultural Monuments. But, I did not consider that job a permanency.
Q.- But you did realize that now you had been mixed up with the SS and the Party? Did you not from the experiences of your father who was always complaining about the bad cooperation of the Party, did you not deduce from that it would always be bad?
A.- From the political organization of the SS, from my eyes at that time, it was not undesirable. For the most part I was young and felt optimistic. I didn't believe those difficulties of my father's struggle would arise everywhere. I considered the SS the best formation of the Party and I hoped that one day it would become the focal point of order.
Q.- And what did you hear about the aims of the society?
A.- I heard something about the aims of the society and I heard also of the name itself. The aim was to take care of monuments, of monuments of historical value. That is a task which, in general, the regional curators had with local administration, with the provincial administration.
Q.- I have just discovered that the translation did not altogether include your comparison that these societies could be compared with the regional societies that had been looking after monuments.
A.- The regional curators are those societies which took care of those buildings which are under special protection within the territory of one province.
Q.- What was the first job you did for the society?
A.- My first job was to buy sites and carry out similar functions to which jurists had to attend. This society possessed sites in several places which were Wewelsburg, Haithabu near Schleswig, Luebeck, Werden, Kranischsfled, Busau, Oldenburg, Bischetz, and Bayerisch Zell. Those were the main places.
Q.- When you started to work for the society did you hear of any other work in which the society was engaged?
A.- No. I didn't.
Q.- Did you hear at that time that the society employed prisoners?
A.- No, I didn't and the society did not employ prisoners in those days.
Q.- How long did you undertake the first job you spoke about?
A.- That job went on until February 1939.
Q.- During that time you witnessed the excesses of November 1939? Did you not realize then what were the aims of the SS and as you had only been in your job for such a short time, didn't you try to get out of that society?
A.- I have to describe in what way I witnessed the excesses. In the morning I came out of my apartment which was Ranke Strasse, 22, Berlin, to go to my office. When I passed the tobacoonist where I used to buy my tobacco I saw that the windows had been broken. I first thought there had been a thunder storm. I then went into my office and work went on as usual. Gradually I heard at the office that during the night excesses had occurred against Jewish shops. Dr. Salpeter, who was then the Chief of the Legal Department, immediately ordered that investigations be instituted against all members of Pohl's office to ascertain whether one of them had taken part in the excesses. Nobody had taken part, as resulted from the investigation. Ad mid day from Berlin West I drove across into the center of town because I wanted to try to get a survey of what had happened. In some places there were still clouds but not in one place did I see an SS uniform. There was just a mob. I did see a few political leaders in SA uniforms. I don't believe to this day that the SS had any part worth mentioning in these excesses. May I refer to the Schallermeier affidavit which was submitted in the Scheide Document Book. Dr. Salpeter's investigations made me draw the conclusions that if any office was suitable to restore order in Germany it was the SS. I myself was indignant about the program. I considered it a terrible crime committed on the Jewish part of the population and also a serious crime against the German people. Later I tried to get an idea about the originators of the program of excesses. Tried to obtain it from rumors that were going about. Rumors were being passed on from one person to another. I heard Himmler was supposed to have gone into a rage, that excesses were supposed to have been initiated by Goebbels and that political leaders had given the orders.
Q.- Well that's one thing I would like to clarify again. In connection with this you did not see one SS man?
A.- No, not one SS man took part.
Q.- And the investigation of Dr. Salpeter did not prove that an SS man had played any part in this excess?
A.- That investigation showed that not a single SS man had taken part.
Q.- How did your work develop after February 1939?
A.- In February 1939 THE SOCIETY for the Promotion and Care of German Cultural Monuments was incorporated in the Main Department S III of Office W. My work for the Monument Society remained the same. Salpeter in the course of the year 1939 stopped the activities of the society which were of a nature that was not layed down in the statutes. He himself dealt with that.
Q.- Continue please.
A.- The society then only dealt with purely cultural activities. The Chief of the Department was Obersturmbannfuehrer Galke. In those days he was subordinated to Salpeter. The financial direction of the society was in charge of Obergruppenfuehrer Pohl and Dr. Salpeter. In the summer of 1939 that office, III W, was plit up into offices of III A and III B. Furthermore, he also dealt with the Extern-Stein-Stiftung fund.
Q. Perhaps you would tell the Tribunal what Extern-SteinStiftung are?
A. The Extern-Stein-Stiftung are an interesting group of rocks in the Teutoburger-Wald near Detmold. As far as science has been able to find out they are the remains of an old Germanic Holy place which later on was turned into a Christian Holy place. The Extern-Stein-Stiftung show the whole of German Plastics and that is extremely interesting, the rendering of Christ being removed from the cross. The Extern-Stone-Fund owned about 500 acres of forest around these stones.
Q. You said that you worked for other societies, too. What was your work for them?
A. In the Main Department under Galke other firms were combined, too, and for those firms at times I worked as a legal consultant. The duration of that work was only a few months.
Q. Did these companies during your activities employ prisoners?
A. No.
Q. In April 1940 there was another change in your office. Did that effect your functions?
A. Yes, my work as legal consultant for other firms came to an end. Instead I dealt with the entire files of the society and from then onwards was able to get an insight into the financing of the society. Further, there was the Koenig Heinrich Fund.
Q. Well, go on.
A. That was all. Those were the changes.
Q. Do you know Document 542, Exhibit 21, in Volume II, in the German text page 1, and in the English page 2. It is Volume 2, Exhibit 21. Exhibit 22, I beg your pardon. Document 542.
A. I didn't know it before but I got to know it here.
Q. Well -
A. I didn't know it before - that document, but I came to know it here.
Q. From what time does that document originate?
A. That document originates evidently from the days of Salpeter.
Q. And at that time who was your superior - who was the Chief of the Department?
A. At that time Galke was my superior.
Q. In that report by Salpeter it says that the Main Department III did not employ prisoners.
A. And that was true at the time of Wewelsburg.
Q. On page 34 in the document you have before you it says: It is page 34 of the original report and it says: "Prisoners were being employed for work at Wewelsburg". Does that not contradict the answer you have just given?
A. No, that is not contradictory to my testimony. What it says here is "work to be done". That in German means a plan for work to be done at a future date.
THE PRESIDENT: Where does it say this?
DR. BERGOLD: That word appears on page 34 of the original report.
THE PRESIDENT: I am looking at page 34.
DR. BERGOLD: Page 23 in the English, but 34 of the original.
THE PRESIDENT: What is the reference you are talking about?
DR. BERGOLD: The answer he gave me was that at Wewelsburg no prisoners were employed at that time, but now it says here prisoners were to be used for work to be done.
A. If I may point out it is under figure 11 --ExternSteine-Foundation. It is page 22. In other words in this document it also says
Q. Well, witness, you wanted to say something?
A. In this document it also says that prisoners were to be employed on work - that is, at a future date they were to be employed on such work, but they never were employed.
Q. In the document it also says that Lebensborn homes belonged to your office.
A. Counsel, I believe that is not contained in this document concerning organization.
Q. You can answer my question, can't you, as to whether Lebensborn homes belonged to your office?
A. As far as I can recollect at the moment the organization plan of WWH of April 1944 didn't mention the Lebensborn homes. In effect the Lebensborn Homes were never dealt with by me.
At the time the Economic Branches of the Various homes were to be subordinated to the Main Department. The Chief of the Lebensborn, Sollman, rang me up. We discussed the matter and we agreed that it would be impracticable in one and the same place to set up two administrations side by side. I reported to Pohl and there upon the matter was dropped.
Q. Did he therefore not reject taking over Lebensborn homes because he didn't like the aims of Lebensborn?
A. No. I thought that the Lebensborn were very decent. According to the German Penal Code under article 218 abortion is prohibited. At the time one took the view that the State if it prohibited abortion must give the mother opportunity to give birth to her child in peaceful circumstances and that the State must take over the care for the birth and for the child itself. At that time no Government funds were available yet for that task.
Therefore Lebensborn Inc. was the foundation for these were financed by contributions from SS members. That is what I know about Lebensborn from those days.
Q. That is enough. That is your personal knowledge?
A. Yes, that is my personal knowledge.
Q. And that matter will be settled soon at another trial and we do not want to get in advance of the other Tribunal. You have just described what Extern-Steine was. What were the purposes or aims of the Extern-Steine fund?
A. The aims of that fund were to put those extern-steine into dignified surroundings. At the time the Reich Road one ran through Extern-Steine and a street car line, and there was a great deal of traffic. A fund had been established by the Land of Lippe and the Land of Lippe had added about 400 acres of land and it was the purpose of the fund to make the surroundings of the stones dignified.
Q. May it please the Court, I am afraid I have to insist on a recess once again.
THE PRESIDENT: Yesterday you asked to recess until 2. Would you like the same today?
DR. BERGOLD: Yes.
THE PRESIDENT: We will recess until 2 o'clock.
THE MARSHALL: The Tribunal will recess until 1400 hours.
AFTERNOON SESSION (The hearing reconvened at 1400 hours August 13, 1947)
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal is again in session.
MR. ROBBINS: May it please the Tribunal, I have been informed that the defense counsel wish to ask one of our interrogators some questions on the stand, and Mr. Wolff is available to them now, if they would like to do so. They tell me they would like to interrupt the Defendant Klein's testimony to examine Mr. Wolff. That meets with our approval, if it meets with the approval of the Tribunal.
THE PRESIDENT: Very well. The Defendant Klein may leave the witness stand, please.
(The Defendant Klein resumed his seat in the Defendants' dock.)
DR. BERGHOLD (Attorney for the Defendant Klein.): May it please the court, I only want to make one remark. I did not express the wish to hear Mr. Wolff. If I understood correctly, it was the Tribunal itself.
THE PRESIDENT: That is right.
MR. ROBBINS: I am sorry.
LARRY LOTHAR WOLFF a witness, took the stand and testified as follows:
THE PRESIDENT: Will you raise your right hand? Do you swear the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth?
THE WITNESS: I do.
THE PRESIDENT: So help you God?
THE WITNESS: I do.
EXAMINATION BY MR. ROBBINS:
Q Will you give the Tribunal your name, Larry?
A My name is Larry Lothar Wolff.
Q And you are an employee of the Office of Chief of Counsel for War Crimes?
A That is correct.
Q You are member of the Evidence Division?
A That is correct.
Q And an interrogator?
A Yes.
Q You speak the German language?
A Yes, I do.
Q And understand that language?
A Yes, I do.
Q Did you interrogate Heinrich Schwarz in Dachau on the 25th day of February, 1947?
A Yes, I did.
Q And did you ask Schwarz if he had been in Wewelsburg?
A Yes, I did.
Q And did he tell you that he had been?
A Yes, he did.
Q For how long a period did he tell you he had been in Wewelsburg?
A He told me he had been there for an approximate period of 14 days.
Q And did he tell you that he had an opportunity to observe the conditions in and around Wewelsburg?
A Yes, he did.
Q He told you that he was subordinate -
DR. BERGHOLD: Excuse me a moment. It is my impression that the questions which my learned colleague has put are leading questions. I think it would be better for the witness to describe what he knows.
MR. ROBBINS: Perhaps it would. I was just trying to save time. I be very happy for defense counsel to carry on this interrogation. I have no particular desire to do so.
Q (By Mr. Robvins) Will you tell us what happened in the course of the interrogation, Mr. Wolff?
THE PRESIDENT: I think he ought to have the affidavit in Book XVII before him.
THE WITNESS: I do, your Honor.
Q You have the original in the original German, Mr. Wolff?
A Yes, I have a copy here.
Q Will you tell us what took place in the interrogation?
A I asked the Witness Schwarz whether he could tell me anything about the conditions in the camp Wewelsburg and about the prisoners that were employed there for this enterprise. The witness told me that he had been there approximately 14 days and that he had made personal observations and also had been told by his fellow guards the incidents described in this affidavit.
Q Did he tell you what jobs he carried out in the camp?
A Yes, he did. He told me that he was on guard duty there and that he also at one time worked in the office and that he was taken sick then and returned to the hospital at Wewelsburg.
Q Did he tell you anything about seeing coffins?
A Yes, he did. He personally saw them.
Q Is that what he said?
A That is what he said.
Q. Did he tell you anything about seeing Klein, the Defendant Klein?
A Yes, he did. Towards the beginning of the interrogation, I asked the witness Schwarz to identify all of the defendants in the Pohl case. A complete set of pictures which I had along was given to him with the names covered. The Witness Schwarz picked out the picture of the Defendant Klein. However, he stated that he did not know his SS rank.
Q He said he had seen Klein in and around the camp?
A Yes, he did.
Q Did he tell you that any of the things that are in the affidavit were his assumptions? 6117
A He never made any such statement, that they were assumptions. He stated that they were either his personal knowledge, what he had seen, or else what he had been told by his fellow guards.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: Mr. Wolff, in this very affidavit he indicates that the affiant is merely giving the opinion of others. He says "It is known to me that prisoners who in the opinion of the people in command", so, at least, in that particular statement he was giving you someone else's opinion, was he not?
THE WITNESS: That is quite correct, Your Honor. He did. However, he stated that that was well known by all of them.
Q (By Mr. Robbins) Did he say this matter was discussed in the camp?
A Yes, he did.
Q Did he say he had talked to the other people in the camp about it?
A He said that during his stay there it was openly discussed amongst the guards.
Q Now tell us how this affidavit came about. Was there a transcript made of the interrogation? First, was there a transcript made?
A There was no transcript made of the interrogation, because this affidavit was drawn up in its original form in the presence of Witness Schwarz. In other words, he dictated some of it and then after he got through I dictated some of this affidavit, asking the Witness Schwarz expressly to stop me immediately if there is one word which does not comply with what he had to say.
Q And then I take it there was a typist present?
A That is correct. There was a lady secretary given to me by the Dachau War Crimes Section.
Q Were there any other witnesses present when the affidavit was given?
A There was a Baltic guard.
Q Was Schwarz subjected to any kind of pressure?
A He was not. He talked freely. He had no reason to believe that he was under pressure.
Q Then how long did this entire interrogation last?
A This interrogation lasted approximately 3/4 of an hour to an hour.
Q And then at the end of the interrogation the lady typed the affidavit as dicated to her by you and Schwarz?
A That is correct.
Q And then a copy was given to him?
AAll eight copies of this interrogation -- the original and seven copies of this interrogation were given to the witness. He corrected each one of them, as the Tribunal can see, he did correct in one case and affixed his name to it.
A. The original and seven copies of this interrogation were given to the witness. He corrected each one of them; as the Tribunal can see, he did correct in one case, and put his name to it.
Q. Did he sign at the bottom of each page?
A. That is correct.
Q. And did you see him read the entire affidavit?
A. I did.
DR. BERGOLD: I believe I have no further questions.
EXAMINATION BY DR. BERGOLD:
Q. Witness, you testified just now that you heard from Schwartz that he had been there for only a fortnight.
A. That is correct.
Q. Why did you not make that part of the affidavit. After all, that is of importance.
A. I have already thought about thid fact, and I came to the conclusion that from the story this witness told me I was fully satisfied, whether the man had been there one week or two weeks, because he had ample time to observe all this.
Q. Did he not tell you that during that fortnight he was ill?
A. The witness stated that he had been sick some of the time.
Q. He told me that he had been ill throughout that period.
A. The witness stated to me that he had not been sick during the entire time.
Q. Witness, did Schwarz not tell you that he was not in a position to enter on this, and did you not tell him that all this had been found out long ago, and that he could assume that this was true?
A. I did not say any such thing.
Q. Then I shall insist for the witness Schwarz to appear here because he says all these things he did not even know - whether klein was the superior of Haas, and you told him he must have been. Klein was a Sturmbannfuehrer and was, therefore, the superior officer.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: Are you making a statement to him, Dr. Bergold, or are you asking a question?
DR. BERGOLD: This is a question.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: Then put it in the form of a question. You just put a statement to the witness.
BY DR. BERGOLD:
Q. Is it not correct - you told Schwarz that Klein was the superior officer of Haas because he had been higher in rank?
A. On this question, I recall that the witness Klein stated to me -- excuse me -- that the witness Schwarz stated to me that Klein has lived at the castle, which surprised me very much, and I asked the witness what Klein's position was, and he told me that to his knowledge Klein was the superior of the camp commander Haas.
Q. Then I must tell you that Schwarz told me that you had been the one to tell him that.
A. As a matter of fact, defense counsel, when I came to Dachau to interrogate the witness Schwarz I did not even know the camp commander was Haas. I did not even know the name.
Q. Quite so. But that doesn't prove anything. But once you heard this, you told him Klein was a Sturmbannfuehrer, and you told him then he must have been the superior officer of Haas who, as you said, was Hauptsturmfuehrer?
A. I did tell the witness Schwarz that Klein was a Strumbannfuehrer, which the record shows, and then Klein told me that he lived at the castle -
JUDGE PHILLIPS: Schwarz told you.
WITNESS: I beg your pardon.
A. (continuing) Then Klein told me that he lived at the castle.
Q. Did you not tell him that Klein was a Sturmbannfuehrer, or Haas a Huptsturmfuehrer?
A. Correct.
Q. Is it not correct, and was it not ever said by witness Schwarz, that all these things were only his conclusions?
A. The word assumption was never uttered by the man. Either it was through stories, or direct conversations with his fellow guards, or what he had seen personally.
Q. Witness, a question about your veracity. You interrogated witness Grosch, who had been interrogated here as a witness, and also repudiated the affidavit which he gave to you?
A. Yes, I did.
DR. BERGOLD: The Tribunal will recall that the witness Grosch gave an affidavit here and described it here, in front of you, as incorrect, and based on wrong assumptions. He described that these things he had never said.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: You may answer him if you desire. He made a statement here about you. You have a right to answer if you desire.
WITNESS: I cannot say anything but that the statement taken from the witness Grosch in Dachau approximately at the same time --it was the same TDY trip, was taken under the correct procedure and under the same circumstances, and had no--and I exerted no pressure or any assumptions on Mr. Grosch.
DR. BERGOLD: Another witness is present here in this building who has also said that you put him under pressure. You exert a lot of pressure, don't you, witness? Unfortunately, my colleague Ratz is not present at the moment, but his witness Reuther, also felt you put him under pressure.
WITNESS: Will you repeat the name of the person, please? I
DR. BERGOLD: Reuther.
WITNESS: I don't remember ever having talked to that man.
DR. BERGOLD: I see. I have no further questions to this witness.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: You were not asked about all the points of the affidavit, particularly as set out in the affidavit of the witness Schwarz on the 25th day of February 47, - but all the other statements contained therein in substance, the statements and evidence given to you in this interrogation, and incorporated in the affidavit by you.
WITNESS: I am afraid I don't quite understand you, Your Honor. Other statements?
JUDGE PHILLIPS: I said that you were not specifically asked about all the contents of the affidavit of Schwarz. You were only asked about parts of it.
WITNESS: That is correct.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: But I want to know if the others which you were not asked about, the statements and facts as contained in the affidavit, were also given you at the time and are contained in the true form as given you by the witness.
WITNESS: That is correct, Your Honor, it was.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: The whold affidavit?
WITNESS: That is correct, Your Honor.
DR. BERGOLD: If the Tribunal please, in view of what the witness has testified to I request that the witness Schwarz should be brought here from Dachau in order to test the truth of all this. It is my opinion that one witness does not always reveal the whole truth. After all, it was a principle of the Romans -- audiatur et altera pars.
I therefore request that the witness Schwarz should be called here. I am sorry to delay the trial.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, the Tribunal will take your request under advisement and rule on it tomorrow morning.
EXAMINATION BY MR. ROBBINS:
Q: Mr. Wolff, you were asked about an interrogation of Grosch. Is it true that a transcript was made on the occasion of one of your interrogations of Grosch?
A: That is correct.
Q: You had two interrogations with him, is that correct?
A: That is correct.
MR. ROBBINS: May it please the Tribunal, the transcript of the interrogation which was made of Grosch has been processed and is in Book 24 or Book 25 -- I have forgotten which, which will be made available to the Tribunal today. I think it will reveal in part the procedure which the interrogator followed.
BY MR. ROBBINS:
Q: I should like to ask you about the other interrogation during which a transcript was not made. During that interrogation, as far as you remember did the witness Grosch tell you that the statements that he was making to you were only his assumptions?
A: No, he did not.
MR. ROBBINS: I have no further questions.
(The witness excused)
HORST KLEIN, the defendant, resumed the stand and testified as follows:
DIRECT EXAMINATION - Resumed BY DR. BERGOLD:
Q: Witness, what were the purposes of the Koenig Heinrich Foundation which you mentioned this morning on direct examination?
A: The Koenig Heinrich Foundation had the purpose of arranging for ceremonies in the cathedral at Quedlinburg, and later on to help to keep up the cathedral.
The cathedral in Quedlinburg is a very old place of worship. King Henry -- Koenig Heinrich -- is buried nearby. He is one of the best known medieval German emperors.
Q: We are approaching now the period of the foundation of the WVHA. When you were incorporated into the WVHA did your activities change in any sense?
A: No, it did not. Only in the summer of 1942, a few months after the foundation of the WVHA, the Association of Homes became part of my duties.
Q: What was the purpose of this Association of Homes?
A: That Association - its correct name is Recreational Homes for Natural Modes of Life - had the purpose to establish recreational homes for women and children and to administer the so-called SS Hospital Departments, which are rest places of the Waffen-SS.
Q: Did the Berg Haus Sudelfeld near Bayrisch-Zell have a special position within that Association?
A: Yes. A few months after the foundation of the Homes Association, the Berg Haus Bayrischzell was put into connection with the association of Homes. The form chosen was that the exchequer of the Berg Haus was taken over by the Association as the legal person, and that the assignments of guests was done by the Association. For the rest, Obergruppenfuehrer Pohl ordered, - he had also ordered the previous arrangement that Hauptsturmfuehrer Teato, the manager of the home, should continue to hold an independent position. Teato's position was extremely powerful because I think he was a personal friend of Pohl's, Frank's, and Loerner's. Teato had been there since about 1938 when the Berg Haus was first opened, and he had been the manager.