Q. Now I am coming to another subject. Do you know how often your brother was at the Wewelsburg?
A. My brother was at the Wewelsburg between the years 1939 and 1944 approximately three or four times per year. I can give you the individual dates because I myself made notes about them, since I always assumed that my brother would be sent to the front at some time or other, and every time he had some business to carry out at the Wewelsburg I went to see him at Wiederbrueck because my brother, whenever he had to go to the Wewelsburg, always lived at Wiederbrueck.
Q. I am now coming to a matter pertaining to you. Is it correct that you, yourself, in the late fall of 1943 were arrested by the Gestapo? For what reason did this happen, and by whose order?
A. In November 1943 I was arrested by the Gestapo agency in Bielefeld, by order of the RSHA. An acquaintance of mine, whom I had known for many years, a Dutch national, Mrs. Herpmann from the Hague, had denounced me by saying that she could not endure my seditious statements any longer.
Q. While you were in Gestapo confinement, were you able to talk with your brother briefly, and did he warn you about the investigation that was being carried out by the Gestapo?
A. My brother came to see me immediately after he heard that I was in confinement. During my interrogation he was allowed to talk to me briefly in the presence of the Gestapo commissioner Diele. He took me in his arms, and he was able to whisper to me, in an unobserved moment, "Be careful, watch out for the apparent friendliness of the Gestapo. Just remember that they are your worst enemies."
Q. Were you subjected to frequent interrogations? Did you have the impression that your entire family was in danger?
A. Yes, my entire family was in the greatest danger, and also everybody who was considered to be a friend of our family. It was always put to me that the statements which were held against me had not originated with me. After all, it was suspected that I had discussed these things with other people.
Q. Did you hear anything about the fact that an investigation was initiated against your husband as a result of the investigation against you?
A. I only heard that an investigation was initiated against my husband after my return from the concentration camp. The case of my husband at that time was described as being harmless by the Gestapo, compared to mine. I heard later on that he knew that the investigation which had begun against him would culminate in his death sentence. He was in a particularly bad spot because prior to 1933 he had been a Free Mason.
Q. In the course of these interrogations did you also hear that an investigation had been started against Dr. Bresser, whom you mentioned before?
A. Yes, I was interrogated very often about this Dr. Bresser, because there was already a big file in existence on Dr. Bresser. Material was being collected against him. That the investigation had begun and that it culminated in his death I only heard when I returned from the concentration camp.
Q. Did you hear anything about the efforts of your brother to help you in your very difficult situation?
A. Yes, my brother went to Berlin in order to help me. The Gestapo commissioner Diele told me that without the help of my brother my case would have been taken before the People's Court, and it would have culminated in my death. He said that my brother had vouched for me. He had succeeded, with the help of Obergruppenfuehrer Frank, to achieve with Himmler personally that by way of a pardon I was sent to a concentration camp. He told me that I could not be grateful enough to the Reichsfuehrer for this decision on his part.
Q. Now, you heard that you were to be committed to a concentration camp. At the time, did you really think that this was a pardon?
A. Yes, it saved my life.
Q. At that time, just what did you know about the concentration camps?
A. I knew that criminals were kept in custody in the concentration camps. People were incarcerated there who had been delinquent many times and who were repeated offenders. Furthermore, I knew that political opponents of the government were confined in the concentration camps, and that the concept of "sedition" went very far during the war. I did not know any facts about the treatment which was accorded to inmates in the concentration camps. As far as my acquaintances were concerned, I only knew of one case where one person had been sent to a concentration camp. He was the old servant of one of my father's acquaintances. After some time he returned, in good physical condition, and he did not speak one word of what had happened in the concentration camp.
Q. Now, you heard that you were to be committed to a concentration camp. Did you hear any details about where you were to be sent, and how you were to be treated there?
A. I was told that the Reichsfuehrer had decided that I was to be committed to the concentration camp Ravensbrueck. I was told that only through the decision of the Reichsfuehrer could I again be released. The Gestapo commissioner at Bielefeld told me that the Gestapo agency at Bielefeld and the RSHA had no more influence on my case. However, I could request my case to be reviewed at any time, and then this request would go through the proper legal channels. It was also possible to make a request for pardon after some time, but only if my conduct in the concentration camp was good. He told me that the homeland was more important than the individual and that it was his duty every six months, or every four months, to review the individual cases. Consequently, every six months a report would be requested from the camp and I would not be forgotten because my files would pass through his hands automatically.
Q. Were you told what kind of work you were to do at Ravensbrueck?
A. The Gestapo commissioner told me that in accordance with my education I would be given clerical work.
Q. Is that the same thing your father and your brother told you when they heard about Himmler's decision?
A. Yes, my father was allowed to write a letter to me. As I found out later on, my brother also was permitted to do that. However, the letter which my brother sent was not handed to me. At Ravensbrueck I was taken to the camp commander in order to receive my father's letter. I was allowed to read it, and then the camp commander asked my just what I thought would happen to me now. I told him that my father had written to me that I was to be a clerical worker here. Then the camp commander told me, "Well, we will see what we can do with you." Then, out in the bitter cold, I was put into a cattle wagon, together with 70 other inmates, and then I was sent to a branch camp of Ravensbrueck, to Bad in Pommerania, and there I had to work from 12 to 14 hours per day in a factory hall.
Q. During the time of your confinement could you ever ascertain whether the assurances which had been made to your brother with regard to you were true or not?
A. Yes, I was able to do that. Of course, I could only do that secretly.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: Dr. Bergold, the witness has difficulty in holding her headphones. Tell her to spread them apart like this. I think that will hold it to her head more easily.
DR. BERGOLD: Thank you very much, Your Honor.
Q. Please continue, witness. What were you able to find out?
A. A Polish woman who worked in the commandant's office saw my files in May 1944 secretly. Then she found out that my files did not contain any remarks at all. Then in the fall of 1944 the woman in charge of the detachment, who was a member of the female SS guards, was very frank with me. At my request to look into my files at Ravensbrueck, she was nice enough to tell me about them, although she was not authorized to do so. In the files there was an order stating that I was to be given any inside job; that any release for me was out of the question; and that I should not be given any privileges whatsoever.
Q. Witness, you were committed to a concentration camp. Did you have the impression from this procedure that a very detailed and precise investigation of your case had taken place, or did you think that your case had not been investigated at all?
A. I personally would have preferred very much if the investigation had not gone into so much detail. A regular procedure was followed. I was also told that I could have taken a defense counsel at the moment when I was transferred from the police prison to the court prison.
Q. Very well. In the concentration camp you also met other people, other German political inmates. Did you hear from these people that in their cases detailed investigations had also taken place?
A. Yes, as far as I know, detailed investigations always took place, and some people had been properly sentenced.
Q. Thank you. Were you able to tell your family about the conditions in the concentration camp?
A. I was unable to do that officially. In secret I could have done that because among the civilian employees of the firm for which we had to work there were certain people who were prepared to smuggle out letters for us. However, this would have meant so much danger for the transmitters of the letters as well as the recipients that I didn't dare to do this. If it could have been proven against my family that they had some official connection with me, then my whole family would have been imprisoned.
Q. How were you treated in the concentration camp?
A. My treatment in the concentration camp varied considerably. I was fortunate enough in general to be treated correctly. I was only beaten on one occasion. The civilian employees of the Heinkel plant where we had to work gave us considerable assistance.
Q. What food did you receive in the concentration camp?
A. The food also varied considerably. Towards the end of the war it became worse and worse since the transportation difficulties mounted. Do you want me to go into details on that question?
Q. Yes, please go into details.
A. At the time when I came to Ravensbrueck, we would receive a piece of bread consisting of four slices, and during the week it would consist of three slices, if we had cold supper at night. Once during the week we would receive about fifty grams of margarine. Once per week we would receive a large spoonful of syrup or jam. Then we would receive a spoonful of cheese, and once a month we would receive a quarter of a pound of honey. At noon we would receive some boiled vegetable. There would be little pieces of meat floating around in it; the vegetable we received would consist either of some sort of beans or we were given dehydrated vegetables. It was only very rarely that we received fresh vegetables. Then in addition to that we received boiled potatoes. Part of the time they were sufficient. Afterwards the supplies became less and less adequate.
In the mornings we received either a thin soup or coffee. In the evening we would receive some soup or pea soup and the cold food which I have already mentioned.
I was sent to Bad, the branch camp, and at Bad the food in general was better. Above all, the food was better prepared because the camp there was much smaller. At Bad the heavy workers would receive additional food. Every day they would receive an extra piece of bread and a piece of sausage or some other substitutes. Then at Bad once a week we would receive a thick milky soup. Then on Sunday for the noon meal we would sometimes receive meat. However, in the fall of 1944 the food deteriorated more and more. There were a lot of air attacks and the trains did not come through anymore because of dive bombers; consequently we received less and less food all the time. At the end we received only a piece of bread, consisting of eight units; this piece was only as thick as a thumb and it had to last for the entire day.
Q. Were you able to make any observations that the German civilian population did not receive adequate food either?
A. Yes, it was true that the civilian workers of the Heinkel plant often would pass us when we received our potatoes and they used to say that we had received more potatoes than they had been able to get in their mess hall.
Q. Did you receive any compensation for your work?
A. We had the so-called bonuses which we received for our work. They were coupons which were substitutes for Reichsmarks. Upon our release they were to be cashed in. However, I was not released as a result of a regular procedure, and I can't say anything about it. At Ravensbrueck I received very little because I did not perform any work there on which any special value was placed. At Bad afterwards I made construction sketches and there I would receive five to eight marks per week.
Q. Could you do anything with these bonuses?
A. Yes, in the canteen of the camp we could buy something whenever there was something for sale.
For example, sometimes we could receive special allotments of beets or sauerkraut or herring salad; sometimes we were able to purchase beer.
Q. Witness, what did you find out in the course of your incarceration?
A. My father and my brother had been told that I was to be confined for the duration of the war. In the protective custody order which was read to me at the Gestapo agency in Bielefeld and which I had to sign this fact was not mentioned. No time limit was given on it.
Q. What was the attitude of the camp personnel in general? Did you have to suffer very much under them, under the female supervisors?
A. That varied considerably. We had supervisors who were very correct in their attitude; they absolutely had the intention of helping the inmates. Then we had completely impossible people among them. Many of the supervisors had been conscripted by the labor office; they told me that they had been taken out of some factory or other, and every tenth female worker had been taken away from a place of work to be used as staff assistants in the SS. But to their horror they found themselves later on in a concentration camp as guard personnel. Various supervisors complained before me because they did not see any possibility of being released from the duties for which they had been conscripted. They were unable to leave the camp if they wanted to do so. I also know that some female guards were incarcerated in concentration camps for the help which they gave to the inmates.
Q. Were you able to observe whether the higher agencies made inspections in the camps under their jurisdiction? If so, how did these inspections take place?
A. During the time which I spent at Ravensbrueck I saw that on a few occasions the camp was inspected. On the day before a few barracks would be cleaned up very nicely. Fresh linen was put on the beds and the inmates were given fresh clothing. The inmates who had been there for quite a while and who had experience would say, "Well, tomorrow an inspection will take place.
Then we will receive good food." So we were eagerly expecting it. Then, on the following day we would receive food which was much better than it was usually. We would see several SS men in uniform who made a detailed inspection of the barracks, which we knew had been prepared beforehand for that purpose.
Q. I am now slowly coming to the end of my examination. I should like to know one more thing from you, witness. What did your brother expect of the Party in the future? Did he think that the Party would clean its own ranks or didn't he consider that possible?
A. My brother always hoped that with regard to foreign policy a situation would arise which would make it possible for the Party to clean its own ranks.
Q. Is it correct that this Dr. Bresser who was sentenced to death thought when Himmler took over the Ministry of the Interior that now the Party could be cleaned up?
A. Yes. In 1943 the Ministry of the Interior was turned over to Himmler. I know that in my father's circle the opinion prevailed that this perhaps was a turn for the better and that now perhaps somebody would take some action and clean up the ranks of the Party.
Q. Even opponents of the Party thought that the fact that Himmler took over the Ministry of the Interior was a ray of hope?
A. Yes, they thought that perhaps this was a ray of hope.
Q. You can recall that at the Wewelsburg property which belonged to the church was also purchased. Can you tell us what attitude the priest Tusch took towards your brother?
A. I visited the priest Tusch some time ago. He told me that I should convey his best regards to my brother. I was to tell him that he remembered him, as he would remember one of his flock, and just as before the altar it was his duty to think of his flock, so he was now thinking of my brother.
Q. Now, my final question. Witness, can you tell me precisely from what time until when you were confined in a concentration camp?
A. In February 1944 I was committed to Ravensbrueck, and on the 1st of May 1945 I was liberated as the result of the approach of the Russian troops.
DR. BERGOLD: May it please the Tribunal, I have completed my examination of this witness in time for the recess.
THE PRESIDENT: We have two minutes left so I'll use it up in asking a question.
EXAMINATION BY THE PRESIDENT:
Q. What kind of work did you do in Ravensbrueck in the factory?
A. In Ravensbrueck I did not work in a factory. In Ravensbrueck I was put into the so-called transient block. This was a quarantine station where new arrivals reported. From there I was sent to Bad. At Bad there was a Heinkel factory where inmate labor was used.
Q. Is that where you worked, in the Heinkel factory at Bad?
A. I didn't hear the German translation.
THE PRESIDENT: Now we'll recess while Channel 3 is fixed.
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal will recess for fifteen minutes.
(A recess was taken.)
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal is again in session.
BY THE PRESIDENT:
Q Witness, what were you accused of at the hearing where you were convicted and sent to a concentration camp?
A I am afraid I can hardly hear. I can't hear at all.
Q Can you hear me now? Now you can hear.
A It is better.
Q What were you accused of at the time you were sent to the concentration camp, at the time of the hearing?
A I was accused of having made defeatist remarks against the State. I said that we had lost the war. There was a very long list; I don't know whether I should give you all the details.
Q That is enough. It was for speaking against the Nazi State?
A Yes. I spoke very strongly against it, against its leaders. I thought they were all megalomaniacs; that I disliked the policy of the Third Reich; that I thought it was irresponsible to have described America's war potential as completely wrong. I also said that I regretted that there was no action taken by the Germans in Germany such as had been done in Italy against Mussolini. I said the German generals had let us down; they had been sufficiently powerful to do something against the government.
Q Did you do hard, manual work in the Heinkel factory at Bad?
A Yes; when I went to Bad first I had to do extremely hard work for twelve or fourteen hours a day, standing, which was extremely tiring. After some time I found contact with the engineers of the Heinkel firm to whom I described my situation. They helped me very much in the later course of my incarceration and they make it possible for me to make construction-drawings, which was less exhausting.
Q You said that you were beaten only once....
A Yes.
Q What Aid you do that called for the beating?
A I had done nothing at all. On a very cold winter evening we had to stand outside for hours outside the factory because a few guards had counted wrongly and thought that one of us had escaped - which was later found to be a mistake. But, until we had been counted time and again, hours went by and we were completely frozen stiff. We should have gone home, and couldn't walk as fast as one of the guards - the really evil one among them, the only evil one, the SS-Unterscharfuehrer, hit a few Czech women in front of me. I look at him, and thereupon he abused me and screamed at me: What did I mean by looking at him in that tone of voice? And he beat me.
Q What did he strike you with?
A With his fist, and he kicked me. This Underscharfuehrer is no longer living; the inmates immediately killed him when the Russians approached.
Q You had men guards at Ravensbrueck?
A In Ravensbrueck most of the guards were female SS guards. There were only very few male SS personnel. They, as far as I could find out, did not have anything to do with the inmates. They were really more in charge of administrative offices.
Q What effect did your confinement of a little over a year a year and four months - what effect did it have on your health?
A When I left the camp I was rather exhausted due to the conditions under which our liberation had taken place. It took a long time until I got back to normal. For five weeks I was in the University Clinic of Rostock before I could even think of going back home.
Q You were liberated immediately by the Russians when they overran the camp?
A The Russians did not actually take over the camp. The camp was evacuated when the Russians were fairly close by the camp. We were told to march away and the idea was for us to be taken to Holstein. A large column of inmates walked along the highways. Very slowly this column disintegrated.
Information reached us that at the top of the column Russian tanks had come in, and we used the opportunity to disperse ourselves in the large forests outside Rostock. I then had tremendous difficulties escaping across the Russian lines unscathed until I finally reached Rostock.
Q Now other questions -- You spoke about the death of your husband. Was that before you were sent to Ravensbrueck?
A No, I had already reached Ravensbrueck and the accusation against my husband had been deferred because of airraids; the files were lost, it seemed. He was accused only in March of 1944 when he was interrogated again and proceedings were opened against him. The news about the death of my husband I received only after I had left the concentration camp, which was through the personnel officer of the unit with which he had served, by one of his comrades to whom he had opened his heart and to whom he had disclosed his plan to shoot himself, as no other possibility for him existed, and as in no case did he want to be killed by a death sentence.
Q And that happened while you were in Ravensbrueck, but you didn't find out about it until after you were released?
A Yes, I heard about the death of my husband and my father only after I had left the concentration camp.
CROSS -EXAMINATION BY MR. Higgins:
Q Witness, when did you first come to know that the SS was not to use your words - "an idealistic and blameless organization serving the Reich"?
A When I saw in the concentration camp of Ravensbrueck what they did.
Q You had no idea of it prior to that time?
A When I heard about a few cases, I assumed that these had been actions disapproved by the highest leadership.
Q You mentioned in your direct testimony the action against the Jews which was carried out in November of 1938. Could you tell me a little something more about it than just that?
A that I can tell you is what I have seen in Duesseldorf, that many shop windows had been smashed, that in the streets there was a turmoil: furniture was being thrown out of windows of apartments. A crowd of young men - Hitler Youth - BDM, ran around the streets, calling out slogans. My husband tried to find out - because he wanted to know - what was going on, and he heard what I told you before.
Q Then that action was not executed by the SS?
A No.
A No.
Q The SS had nothing whatsoever to do about it?
A I didn't see any SS in Duesseldorf indulging in these activities; certainly not a uniformed SS man. I couldn't identify any of them, and it was quite generally held that it had been done by the political organizations and the excesses arranged by them. I heard that in some places police acted against an action.
Q Prior to your internment in the Ravensbrueck concentration camp, subsequent actions were carried out against the Jews, were they not?
A While I was interned in Ravensbrueck? Did I understand you correctly?
Q Prior to your internment in Ravensbrueck and subsequent to 1938 is the period I am referring to.
A Yes, I knew that, because I knew the case of Kohn, who had been deported.
Q Did you know of any other grand scale programs against the Jews, that is programs which extended throughout the Reich?
A I am afraid I didn't quite follow. Would you please repeat?
(The interpreter repeated the question.)
A (Continued) I heard in Ravensbrueck that the wives of Jews were being interned. I talked to a number of wives of Jewish people who had been interned for that reason, not because they were charged with anything else. They had been taken to Ravensbrueck for that reason. How far the descriptions were correct, I do not know.
Q In the beginning of your testimony on the direct examination you spoke of your brother's interest in motorcycling and you stated also that it was decided to form a Panzer unit. Could you tell me whether or not that unit was actually formed?
A I was not talking about a Panzer unit. I never mentioned it. It wasn't called a Panzer, a tank unit.
Q How about a motor cycle unit? Was a motor cycle unit formed at that time?
AA motor cycle Sturm, yes. That is to say, young men who had motor bikes gathered together and went on little trips and had races, and so forth.
Q Then that wasn't connected with the SS. That wasn't a military organization then?
A I regarded that as a sports group. It was an organization similar to the Reiter-Sturm.
Q Was your brother at that time a member of the Allgemeine SS?
A I don't know; if you are in a motorcycle unit, you are a member of the SS; as far as I know, at least, I assume so. I don't think you are in a mounted unit or in a motor bike unit, if you are not a member of the SS.
Q And then this motor cycle unit was affiliated with the Allgemeine SS, is that right?
A I think so, yes.
Q And then we can conclude that your brother at that time was a member of the Allgemeine SS?
A Yes, I think so, certainly.
Q In connection with this matter, you stated that your brother was involved in a motor cycle accident which was suffered in the course of an official trip. Now, in reference to that trip, was that an SS trip?
A This was a trip to go and report to service. He was on duty near Wiedersloh, which was a small town 10 kilometers from Wiedenbrueck, where we were living and my brother as well. From Wiedenbrueck he went to Wiedersloh and en route there were some stones in the street and he drove through the stones and he fell off his motor bike and suffered these extremely grevous skull-injuries.
Q You stated that accident was suffered in 1934. Could you tell me in what part of that year he was injured?
A It must have been in the summer, because I remember it was very hot, but I can't give you a precise date as to the month.
Q That is perfectly sufficient. Now, coming back to Ravensbrueck concentration camp, you mentioned an incident to which we might refer as the "potato incident", and I would like to know whether you can say as of your own knowledge that the civilian population in that vicinity was not better fed than your fellow inmates at Ravensbrueck concentration camp.
A I couldn't say that. All I know is as far as the food of the civilian workers of Heinkel are concerned, I don't know whether the civilian population was better of. The civilian workers of the Heinkel firm ate in a works canteen and I know they said frequently that they got less potatoes than we did. Of course, I did not eat with the civilian workers at any time, but the civilian workers would pass by frequently and saw what potatoes we held in our hands and they told us they were more than they got.
Q But beyond potatoes you can't say that they were not as well fed as you? In other words, the incident refers - Excuse me
A I couldn't touch upon that nor would we always get as many potatoes, It depended on whether a new transport had reached us and then we got more. In other cases we got less. Towards the end we got very little at any time.
Q You mentioned that on one instance you were beaten at Ravensbrueck. Could you tell us whether beatings were -
AAt Bad.
Q Yes, - excuse me - but at Ravensbrueck could you tell me whether or not the beating were a general routine? Were people beaten there?
A No, you couldn't say that. The inmates in the concentration camp consisted of a variety of people. There were the political prisoners, who were together with asocial elements, a number of prostitutes had been locked up. We were together with the professional criminals some of whom would do awful things.
They stole, they beat each other and would do any harm they could to each other. The treatment by the female guards was adjusted in some cases to the lowest level among the inmates. Officially, the female guards were not allowed to beat an inmate. When they were on duty and when they were being hired, they had to sign a form that they took cognizance of the fact that they must not beat the inmates. They were to be at all times a distance of six steps from an inmate, but that, of course, was not observed, and, if a female guard could not get what she wanted, she would beat the inmates. According to my experiences, it also depended on the conduct of the inmate. The official punishment, the flogging, which was allowed in Ravensbrueck as an official punishment, had to be carried out - that was confirmed to me by a number of inmates who knew the regulations by the political administration - the flogging was only allowed to be carried out in the presence of the commandant and the doctor and it had to be approved by the local Gestapo agency responsible for the inmate. I don't know, of course, whether this regulation was observed.
Q In your direct testimony you referred to a Czech inmate. Could you tell me whether nationals of other countries were also interned at Ravensbrueck in addition to Czechs?
A Yes, there was hardly a nation which was not represented. There were very many female Poles, Czechs, Austrians, French women.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: Madam, these inmates from the other countries that you have just now mentioned, did they indicate to you how they got to the concentration camp? Had they been accused of any crime or were they merely herded together and put aboard transports and sent on to this concentration camp?
THE WITNESS: I am afraid I didn't receive the translation this time. It didn't come through.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: You spoke of various nationalities represented at Ravensbrueck -
THE WITNESS: Yes.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: Previously you indicated to us the background of many of the inmates. Some were criminals, asocials, and so on. How did these inmates from the other countries get to Ravensbrueck. Had they been accused of crimes, or were they merely transported there as a matter of policy?
THE WITNESS: As far as I know and inasmuch as the female foreigners told me, all of them had faced a trial before. Of the mass transports, I know only as far as Russians were concerned, but I did not know too much about these things. I only heard rumors. I know of female Gypsies who were transported there without any special individual accusations or trials.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: Wouldn't that same be true also with regard to the female Poles?
THE WITNESS: I am afraid I can't tell you. The female Poles whom I knew had trials.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: What was the population of Ravensbrueck.
THE WITNESS: Inmates were given numbers. When I arrived I was given the number 29,193. New arrivals whom we received in Bad in the Spring of 1945 had the number of 130,000.
BY MR. HIGGINS:
Q. Witness, did you have any idea whatsoever of the mortality rate at Ravensbrueck?
A. The mortality rate at Ravensbrueck was described to me only by rumors. It was extremely difficult even for an inmate in the camp to hear about these things. I wasn't there a sufficiently long period of time in order to reach an opinion. I can only speak about Bad. In Bad not many inmates died. I believe at the most one or two per month. No more. We never had any epidemics at Bad. The camp was relatively small. There were about 1600 or 1800 inmates.
Q. During your internment in the concentration camp did you ever have occasion to hear the names of any of the defendants now in the dock, with the exception of your brother?
A. No.
Q. Would you please tell me where you lived during the greatest part of the time, between the year 1933 and your internment in Ravensbrueck?
A. In 1933 I lived in Duesseldorf, and towards the beginning of the war I joined my parents in Wiedenbrueck. I went to Duesseldorf only very rarely because of the intensified air raids. Until the time of my arrest I lived with my parents. I was arrested in the house of my father.
Q. Did your brother maintain a separate residence?
A. My brother lived in Berlin until he was bombed out in Berlin. Then he lived at Kranichfeld.
MR. HIGGINS: I have no further questions, your Honor.
REDIRECT EXAMINATION BY DR. BERGOLD:
Q. Witness, one more questions. While you were in Ravensbrueck and Bad, were you in a position to observe whether releases were effected from concentration camps?