He was afraid that he would not be an independent man.
Q. What were his plans, then, as to his career?
A. He then attempted to get a job in industry. Young legal men were very frequent in those days and positions to be found were poorly paid. They offered him a job in the industrial area but told him he had to wait for a year and in the intermediate periof of time he accepted a position for a mere pittance. But, he could not get on in that position. He suddenly heard that the position which he had been promised had been given the nephew of one of the directors. He wanted to earn money as quickly as possible in order to assist my father. Legal training takes a long time and he wanted to become independent at last. He looked in newspaper advertisements to find something and when a Munich lawyer advertised he answered. That lawyer was looking for an assistant with a good future. That is how he joined the company for the care of German cultural monuments.
Q. Now, when your father heard that this company for the promotion of German cultural monuments was connected with the SS did he advise him not to join?
A. Yes. When my father heard that the company was connected with the SS he advised him not to join it. He did not like the idea of my brother being dependent on the Party, but my brother did not regard this position as something final. He was only too glad to find something and not be a burden to my father any more.
Q. Tell me what was the attitude your brother took at the time about the SS?
A. My brother regarded it at that time as an organization of decent people who were full of chivalry and comradeship and readiness to help. Their past was blameless and they were prepared and ready to serve their fatherland as well as possible. He told me that the aims of the SS would be to organize the best crean of Germany, for instance, university professors, scientists, and so on, anybody with something to their credit.
Q. Were you surprised when he told you that wasn't at all the opinion of the people toward the SS?
A. No. I was told so at the time. I heard very often in our part of the country that the SS was the best organization and manh people in our region joined the SS when they joined the Party. I even heard that it was hoped the SS would take measures to bring order into other formations, the SA or political leaders.
Q. Did your brother later have misgivings to the SS or to whom were these misgivings directed?
A. My brother saw the Party was going in the direction which he did not wish to see. He became extremely annoyed about the increasing corruption and bossiness of the Party members. He frequently told me, excesses in the first time he regarded as influence of evil persons but as time went on he believed that intelligent people would direct matters into sensible channels and also believed that extreme elements would be eliminated more and more. He also believed the frequent attacks and threats contained in the Fuehrer's Speech and addressed against our class, the middle class and the intellectuals would cease as time want on. My brother was deeply disappointed because the first extreme elements who usually disappear after revolution remained in power so long. He told me frequently that he was glad to see that the SS did not expect him to do anything for which he could not answer.
Q. As I gain from your testimony I am inclined to say he had no misgivings against the SS.
A. No, but had misgivings against the general mind taken by the Party.
Q. Is that the reason why he once wanted to resign from the SS because he had misgivings against the Party, not the SS?
A. Misgivings against the Party as such, but not against the SS. He told me because he did not regard the Party as the proper basis for his work that he wanted to leave it.
Q. Did somebody give him a piece of advice in that respect?
A. Yes. He discussed that with Freiherr von Dehenhausen the President of Minden area, and he told me that he had told him what should become of things if all decent people would leave the SS. He should make the sacrifice and remain with the SS.
Q. If the Tribunal please I shall now come to a different subject. Perhaps this is a suitable time for the recess.
THE PRESIDENT: Very suitable. You asked that we will recess until 2 P.M. Dr. Bergold? We will resume at 2 instead of 15 minutes to 2 as usual.
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal will recess until 1400 Hours.
AFTERNOON SESSION
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal is again in session.
HELGA VON ROUPPERT - Resumed DIRECT EXAMINATION - Continued.
BY DR. BERGOLD: (Counsel for defendant Klein)
Q. Witness, just what attitude did you brother maintain with regard to the well-known persecution of Jews in November, 1938?
A. My brother was terribly disgusted by this action, and he thought that this action was completely irresponsible from the humane point of view and the political point of view also.
Q. And what was the attitude of your father with regard to that action?
A. My father was also horrified and extremely shocked. At that time he was staying in Berlin in the course of an official journey. When he returned home and saw what happened he had a severe heart attack of angina pectoris.
Q. Could your brother see from these happenings, and didn't he have to draw the conclusion from them, that now the time had come for him to leave the SS?
A. No; he told me that fortunately the SS had nothing whatsoever to do with these happenings. He told me that he heard in Berlin that Himmler had been horrified and that he had been extremely enraged when he had heard about those things. He held the Minister of Propaganda responsible for what had happened. I could confirm this view because at Duesseldorf, where I resided at the time, I heard that the action in Duesseldorf had been ordered by the District Propagandist, Dr. Bauers.
Q. Witness, when the war broke out, did your brother give any indication to you that he wanted to fight in the war in the SS?
A. No. My brother did not want to serve in the SS during the war; he wanted to go to the Wehrmacht.
Q. Is it correct that he volunteered as an artillery observer? And why did he do that?
A. He volunteered for a special training course at Muenster in order to be assigned to an army unit. He hoped in this way that he would be released from his agency in Berlin. However, the agency did not release him.
Q. Why did he want to withdraw from his previous activity?
A. He told me that he did not feel at ease in the atmosphere which prevailed in the Berlin Agency. He felt that he was quite isolated there, and he did not have any friends there.
Q Thank you, Witness. What attitude did your brother have toward the war, after the outbreak of the war?
A My father and my brother considered the war to be an insanity. They were not convinced of its necessity at all. My father considered the war to be the result of the incapability of Ribbentrop to handle foreign affairs. Furthermore, he believed that this was the only possibility for the Party to find a way out of the economic policy in which it was engaged and about which my father was extremely distrustful.
Q Now, tell me, Witness, is it correct that within the house of your father's a certain circle formed itself, which held a certain attitude with regard to the NSDAP?
A Yes, in the house of my father several people would visit who maintained a very negative attitude towards the Party and they would have open discussions in the house of my father and they voiced their extreme worry about the future of Germany.
Q Who belonged to the circle of your father?
A First of all, my father himself, my husband, my brother, a friend of the family, Dr. Hugo Bresser, another friend, a painter, by the name of Dr. Schmitz-Siedenbroeck, and the secretary of my father, Frauelein Wolf and sometimes the Graf Sponeck and Freiherr von Gutenau and both of them were aircraft commanders.
Q What was the general attitude of the circle?
A In the circle the Fuehrer was considered as a person who would bring about the downfall of the German Reich. Dr. Bresser would call him a devilish fool. He was considered to be the grave digger of the German Reich. My father talked about the corruption of the administration as a result of positions held by incapable party men.
Q And your husband?
A My husband told us about his experiences during the war, about the irresponsible leadership with regard to the campaign in Russia, about his judgment of the situation in the West.
Q And Graf Sponeck?
A Graf Sponeck and Freiherr von Gutenau had frequently been invited to see Goering in their capacity as aircraft commanders and they talked about the unbelievable luxury he was living in and about his adventurous uniforms, and the way he strutted around.
Q Can you tell me, is it correct that Herr Bresser whom you just mentioned was sentenced to death because of his attitude toward the Third Reich?
A Yes. Dr. Bresser was tried and the People's Court sentenced him to death.
Q That is sufficient here. And Graf Sponeck, is it true that he was sent to a concentration camp?
A Graf Sponeck was confined to jail and after the 20th of July he was shot.
Q You said that a Professor Schmitz had also belonged to your circle. Will you please tell us about what this man told about the plans of Hitler; although this is not part of the trial, actually it is so interesting that perhaps the Tribunal would be interested to hear about it.
A Professor Schmitz-Siedenbroeck was regularly invited for the opening of the Art Exhibition in Munich. In the evening in a small circle, the Fuehrer and Goebbels would be together with the artists. Professor Schmitz told us in summer 1943, to our greatest horror, that the Fuehrer had ordered work to be begun on the plans for his tomb stone. First of all he had given the assignment to the scientists and they were assigned to find the necessary construction materials.
He was very mad when it was not possible for him to have the pavement started right away at the locality, since the African campaign was so unsuccessful. Now he wanted to find some material which was just as durable and which would last for thousands of years. He had prohibited that concrete would be used.
He didn't want that afterwards in the ruines any iron parts would stick out in the air. He had given an order that great emphasis should be placed on the fact that the beauty of the ruins should be given consideration.
Q Will you come beck again to the extent of the plans.
A This monument was to be erected in Munich at the corner of the Feldherrnhalle and Ludwigstrasse. It was to be so great that it could be seen from the top of the German Alps and that it could be sighted from the entire Bavarian Valley. An artificial road was to be laid so the railways and highways and streets were to be on top of each other and big structures were to be constructed and a big elevator a big obilisk on the part of the structure was to be supported by a large round structure and in this round structure there were to be archways and in the archways there were to be statues which were to symbolize one district. In each case, I also know that he figured out that the height of this statue would be as high as the Landarte Church in Muenster. This would be approximately 50 metres high.
Q That is sufficient, Witness.
A This was in summer of 1943.
Q And all these things were discussed in your circle?
A Yes.
Q What was your brother's attitude towards this?
A My brother confirmed our discussions by reports which he gave us from his own experiences.
Q Did your brother in 1942 receive the order to look after the fate of a Jew by the name of Kohn and what information did he receive on that occasion?
A Kohn was an employee of Dr. Bresser at the time, he was deported, supposedly to Theresienstadt. Dr. Bresser asked my brother to try to get some information about him. My brother told us that the Jews were to be interned for the duration of the war. After all most of them had relatives abroad or they had business contacts abroad.
After all, here we had the danger of them being used as spies, and after all, it would take a whole army of soldiers in order to watch them individually.
Q Did you have the impression from the statements of your brother that the Jews were to be sent into a concentration camp or an internment camp?
A Yes, into an internment camp, like all enemy nations.
Q Is ti correct that your brother was to find out something about Theresienstadt upon the request of Dr. Bresser and what did he find out about it?
A Yes, my brother told me that in the course of one of the trips he had passed in the vicinity of Theresienstadt. He had inquired there and he received the information that there was not a camp at all at Theresienstadt.
Q Witness, in August, 1943, did you discuss with your brother the rumor with regard to the high mortality rate of the Jews and what knowledge did your brother have about that?
A My brother told me that in accordance with the desire of Dr. Bresser who still wanted to find out about the fate of Herr Kohn, he had gone to see somebody at the highest agency to which he had access and this agency should have had some information about the fate of Herr Kohn, and he was told that everything was nonsense. Apparently he had been a victim of the foreign propaganda and he was told to be careful; apparently he was listening to too many foreign radio broadcasts and he was warned not to spread around stories of that kind.
Q Witness, I want to go back once more in my questioning, because it has been pointed out to me that the translation was not quite clear. Did you mean to say that your brother inquired about Herr Kohn with the highest agency he had access to, or about the fate of the Jews?
A He inquired about the fate of the Jews and he inquired whether the rumors which were going around about the Jews were actually true.
Q What impression did you have about the information which your brother conveyed to you? Did he believe it and did you also believe it?
A Yes, we discussed it afterwards that this information we had received had to be true, because he had received it from an SS agency and there was no reason that SS comrades should lie to each other.
Q. Now I am coming to another subject. Do you know how often your brother was at the Wewelsburg?
A. My brother was at the Wewelsburg between the years 1939 and 1944 approximately three or four times per year. I can give you the individual dates because I myself made notes about them, since I always assumed that my brother would be sent to the front at some time or other, and every time he had some business to carry out at the Wewelsburg I went to see him at Wiederbrueck because my brother, whenever he had to go to the Wewelsburg, always lived at Wiederbrueck.
Q. I am now coming to a matter pertaining to you. Is it correct that you, yourself, in the late fall of 1943 were arrested by the Gestapo? For what reason did this happen, and by whose order?
A. In November 1943 I was arrested by the Gestapo agency in Bielefeld, by order of the RSHA. An acquaintance of mine, whom I had known for many years, a Dutch national, Mrs. Herpmann from the Hague, had denounced me by saying that she could not endure my seditious statements any longer.
Q. While you were in Gestapo confinement, were you able to talk with your brother briefly, and did he warn you about the investigation that was being carried out by the Gestapo?
A. My brother came to see me immediately after he heard that I was in confinement. During my interrogation he was allowed to talk to me briefly in the presence of the Gestapo commissioner Diele. He took me in his arms, and he was able to whisper to me, in an unobserved moment, "Be careful, watch out for the apparent friendliness of the Gestapo. Just remember that they are your worst enemies."
Q. Were you subjected to frequent interrogations? Did you have the impression that your entire family was in danger?
A. Yes, my entire family was in the greatest danger, and also everybody who was considered to be a friend of our family. It was always put to me that the statements which were held against me had not originated with me. After all, it was suspected that I had discussed these things with other people.
Q. Did you hear anything about the fact that an investigation was initiated against your husband as a result of the investigation against you?
A. I only heard that an investigation was initiated against my husband after my return from the concentration camp. The case of my husband at that time was described as being harmless by the Gestapo, compared to mine. I heard later on that he knew that the investigation which had begun against him would culminate in his death sentence. He was in a particularly bad spot because prior to 1933 he had been a Free Mason.
Q. In the course of these interrogations did you also hear that an investigation had been started against Dr. Bresser, whom you mentioned before?
A. Yes, I was interrogated very often about this Dr. Bresser, because there was already a big file in existence on Dr. Bresser. Material was being collected against him. That the investigation had begun and that it culminated in his death I only heard when I returned from the concentration camp.
Q. Did you hear anything about the efforts of your brother to help you in your very difficult situation?
A. Yes, my brother went to Berlin in order to help me. The Gestapo commissioner Diele told me that without the help of my brother my case would have been taken before the People's Court, and it would have culminated in my death. He said that my brother had vouched for me. He had succeeded, with the help of Obergruppenfuehrer Frank, to achieve with Himmler personally that by way of a pardon I was sent to a concentration camp. He told me that I could not be grateful enough to the Reichsfuehrer for this decision on his part.
Q. Now, you heard that you were to be committed to a concentration camp. At the time, did you really think that this was a pardon?
A. Yes, it saved my life.
Q. At that time, just what did you know about the concentration camps?
A. I knew that criminals were kept in custody in the concentration camps. People were incarcerated there who had been delinquent many times and who were repeated offenders. Furthermore, I knew that political opponents of the government were confined in the concentration camps, and that the concept of "sedition" went very far during the war. I did not know any facts about the treatment which was accorded to inmates in the concentration camps. As far as my acquaintances were concerned, I only knew of one case where one person had been sent to a concentration camp. He was the old servant of one of my father's acquaintances. After some time he returned, in good physical condition, and he did not speak one word of what had happened in the concentration camp.
Q. Now, you heard that you were to be committed to a concentration camp. Did you hear any details about where you were to be sent, and how you were to be treated there?
A. I was told that the Reichsfuehrer had decided that I was to be committed to the concentration camp Ravensbrueck. I was told that only through the decision of the Reichsfuehrer could I again be released. The Gestapo commissioner at Bielefeld told me that the Gestapo agency at Bielefeld and the RSHA had no more influence on my case. However, I could request my case to be reviewed at any time, and then this request would go through the proper legal channels. It was also possible to make a request for pardon after some time, but only if my conduct in the concentration camp was good. He told me that the homeland was more important than the individual and that it was his duty every six months, or every four months, to review the individual cases. Consequently, every six months a report would be requested from the camp and I would not be forgotten because my files would pass through his hands automatically.
Q. Were you told what kind of work you were to do at Ravensbrueck?
A. The Gestapo commissioner told me that in accordance with my education I would be given clerical work.
Q. Is that the same thing your father and your brother told you when they heard about Himmler's decision?
A. Yes, my father was allowed to write a letter to me. As I found out later on, my brother also was permitted to do that. However, the letter which my brother sent was not handed to me. At Ravensbrueck I was taken to the camp commander in order to receive my father's letter. I was allowed to read it, and then the camp commander asked my just what I thought would happen to me now. I told him that my father had written to me that I was to be a clerical worker here. Then the camp commander told me, "Well, we will see what we can do with you." Then, out in the bitter cold, I was put into a cattle wagon, together with 70 other inmates, and then I was sent to a branch camp of Ravensbrueck, to Bad in Pommerania, and there I had to work from 12 to 14 hours per day in a factory hall.
Q. During the time of your confinement could you ever ascertain whether the assurances which had been made to your brother with regard to you were true or not?
A. Yes, I was able to do that. Of course, I could only do that secretly.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: Dr. Bergold, the witness has difficulty in holding her headphones. Tell her to spread them apart like this. I think that will hold it to her head more easily.
DR. BERGOLD: Thank you very much, Your Honor.
Q. Please continue, witness. What were you able to find out?
A. A Polish woman who worked in the commandant's office saw my files in May 1944 secretly. Then she found out that my files did not contain any remarks at all. Then in the fall of 1944 the woman in charge of the detachment, who was a member of the female SS guards, was very frank with me. At my request to look into my files at Ravensbrueck, she was nice enough to tell me about them, although she was not authorized to do so. In the files there was an order stating that I was to be given any inside job; that any release for me was out of the question; and that I should not be given any privileges whatsoever.
Q. Witness, you were committed to a concentration camp. Did you have the impression from this procedure that a very detailed and precise investigation of your case had taken place, or did you think that your case had not been investigated at all?
A. I personally would have preferred very much if the investigation had not gone into so much detail. A regular procedure was followed. I was also told that I could have taken a defense counsel at the moment when I was transferred from the police prison to the court prison.
Q. Very well. In the concentration camp you also met other people, other German political inmates. Did you hear from these people that in their cases detailed investigations had also taken place?
A. Yes, as far as I know, detailed investigations always took place, and some people had been properly sentenced.
Q. Thank you. Were you able to tell your family about the conditions in the concentration camp?
A. I was unable to do that officially. In secret I could have done that because among the civilian employees of the firm for which we had to work there were certain people who were prepared to smuggle out letters for us. However, this would have meant so much danger for the transmitters of the letters as well as the recipients that I didn't dare to do this. If it could have been proven against my family that they had some official connection with me, then my whole family would have been imprisoned.
Q. How were you treated in the concentration camp?
A. My treatment in the concentration camp varied considerably. I was fortunate enough in general to be treated correctly. I was only beaten on one occasion. The civilian employees of the Heinkel plant where we had to work gave us considerable assistance.
Q. What food did you receive in the concentration camp?
A. The food also varied considerably. Towards the end of the war it became worse and worse since the transportation difficulties mounted. Do you want me to go into details on that question?
Q. Yes, please go into details.
A. At the time when I came to Ravensbrueck, we would receive a piece of bread consisting of four slices, and during the week it would consist of three slices, if we had cold supper at night. Once during the week we would receive about fifty grams of margarine. Once per week we would receive a large spoonful of syrup or jam. Then we would receive a spoonful of cheese, and once a month we would receive a quarter of a pound of honey. At noon we would receive some boiled vegetable. There would be little pieces of meat floating around in it; the vegetable we received would consist either of some sort of beans or we were given dehydrated vegetables. It was only very rarely that we received fresh vegetables. Then in addition to that we received boiled potatoes. Part of the time they were sufficient. Afterwards the supplies became less and less adequate.
In the mornings we received either a thin soup or coffee. In the evening we would receive some soup or pea soup and the cold food which I have already mentioned.
I was sent to Bad, the branch camp, and at Bad the food in general was better. Above all, the food was better prepared because the camp there was much smaller. At Bad the heavy workers would receive additional food. Every day they would receive an extra piece of bread and a piece of sausage or some other substitutes. Then at Bad once a week we would receive a thick milky soup. Then on Sunday for the noon meal we would sometimes receive meat. However, in the fall of 1944 the food deteriorated more and more. There were a lot of air attacks and the trains did not come through anymore because of dive bombers; consequently we received less and less food all the time. At the end we received only a piece of bread, consisting of eight units; this piece was only as thick as a thumb and it had to last for the entire day.
Q. Were you able to make any observations that the German civilian population did not receive adequate food either?
A. Yes, it was true that the civilian workers of the Heinkel plant often would pass us when we received our potatoes and they used to say that we had received more potatoes than they had been able to get in their mess hall.
Q. Did you receive any compensation for your work?
A. We had the so-called bonuses which we received for our work. They were coupons which were substitutes for Reichsmarks. Upon our release they were to be cashed in. However, I was not released as a result of a regular procedure, and I can't say anything about it. At Ravensbrueck I received very little because I did not perform any work there on which any special value was placed. At Bad afterwards I made construction sketches and there I would receive five to eight marks per week.
Q. Could you do anything with these bonuses?
A. Yes, in the canteen of the camp we could buy something whenever there was something for sale.
For example, sometimes we could receive special allotments of beets or sauerkraut or herring salad; sometimes we were able to purchase beer.
Q. Witness, what did you find out in the course of your incarceration?
A. My father and my brother had been told that I was to be confined for the duration of the war. In the protective custody order which was read to me at the Gestapo agency in Bielefeld and which I had to sign this fact was not mentioned. No time limit was given on it.
Q. What was the attitude of the camp personnel in general? Did you have to suffer very much under them, under the female supervisors?
A. That varied considerably. We had supervisors who were very correct in their attitude; they absolutely had the intention of helping the inmates. Then we had completely impossible people among them. Many of the supervisors had been conscripted by the labor office; they told me that they had been taken out of some factory or other, and every tenth female worker had been taken away from a place of work to be used as staff assistants in the SS. But to their horror they found themselves later on in a concentration camp as guard personnel. Various supervisors complained before me because they did not see any possibility of being released from the duties for which they had been conscripted. They were unable to leave the camp if they wanted to do so. I also know that some female guards were incarcerated in concentration camps for the help which they gave to the inmates.
Q. Were you able to observe whether the higher agencies made inspections in the camps under their jurisdiction? If so, how did these inspections take place?
A. During the time which I spent at Ravensbrueck I saw that on a few occasions the camp was inspected. On the day before a few barracks would be cleaned up very nicely. Fresh linen was put on the beds and the inmates were given fresh clothing. The inmates who had been there for quite a while and who had experience would say, "Well, tomorrow an inspection will take place.
Then we will receive good food." So we were eagerly expecting it. Then, on the following day we would receive food which was much better than it was usually. We would see several SS men in uniform who made a detailed inspection of the barracks, which we knew had been prepared beforehand for that purpose.
Q. I am now slowly coming to the end of my examination. I should like to know one more thing from you, witness. What did your brother expect of the Party in the future? Did he think that the Party would clean its own ranks or didn't he consider that possible?
A. My brother always hoped that with regard to foreign policy a situation would arise which would make it possible for the Party to clean its own ranks.
Q. Is it correct that this Dr. Bresser who was sentenced to death thought when Himmler took over the Ministry of the Interior that now the Party could be cleaned up?
A. Yes. In 1943 the Ministry of the Interior was turned over to Himmler. I know that in my father's circle the opinion prevailed that this perhaps was a turn for the better and that now perhaps somebody would take some action and clean up the ranks of the Party.
Q. Even opponents of the Party thought that the fact that Himmler took over the Ministry of the Interior was a ray of hope?
A. Yes, they thought that perhaps this was a ray of hope.
Q. You can recall that at the Wewelsburg property which belonged to the church was also purchased. Can you tell us what attitude the priest Tusch took towards your brother?
A. I visited the priest Tusch some time ago. He told me that I should convey his best regards to my brother. I was to tell him that he remembered him, as he would remember one of his flock, and just as before the altar it was his duty to think of his flock, so he was now thinking of my brother.
Q. Now, my final question. Witness, can you tell me precisely from what time until when you were confined in a concentration camp?
A. In February 1944 I was committed to Ravensbrueck, and on the 1st of May 1945 I was liberated as the result of the approach of the Russian troops.
DR. BERGOLD: May it please the Tribunal, I have completed my examination of this witness in time for the recess.
THE PRESIDENT: We have two minutes left so I'll use it up in asking a question.
EXAMINATION BY THE PRESIDENT:
Q. What kind of work did you do in Ravensbrueck in the factory?
A. In Ravensbrueck I did not work in a factory. In Ravensbrueck I was put into the so-called transient block. This was a quarantine station where new arrivals reported. From there I was sent to Bad. At Bad there was a Heinkel factory where inmate labor was used.
Q. Is that where you worked, in the Heinkel factory at Bad?
A. I didn't hear the German translation.
THE PRESIDENT: Now we'll recess while Channel 3 is fixed.
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal will recess for fifteen minutes.
(A recess was taken.)