A Here again you don't seem to remember what I have been trying to say. What I said was that Mummenthey as Office Chief, as he was a military, held no doubt a rank superior to those of the other soldiers. But that is all I said about that.
Q But yesterday you said quite generally that the Office Chief had tasks of a military and civil service character. How was that expressed in the case of Dr. Hohbert, especially the military function?
A Do you know, Dr. Heim....?
Q Witness, you cannot ask me any questions.
A In my opinion, also in military offices -- civilians work also in military administrations. In the case of Dr. Hohbert in the WVHA, this was an exception, of course. I don't know any other case, nor can I really decide on that question because all I said - and I must maintain what I said because it is in accordance with what I know - was that I have been informed to the effect, and that it was my impression from the documents, that Hohberg was Chief of Staff W. I never deliberated how did he do this, was he allowed to do that, did he become guilty of violation, or anything else. This would have been a waste of time.
Q Witness, my final question. Did you say here, in prison, that during your interrogation you would incriminate Dr. Hohberg? Did you tell that to anybody outside Nurnberg?
A No.
Q Do you maintain what you said if I tell you that on 10 July of this year I received a telegram to that effect?
A Yes.
DR. HEIM: Thank you very much. No further questions.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal will recess until two o'clock.
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal will recess until 1400 hours.
(Recess)
Court No. II, Case No. 4.
AFTERNOON SESSION (The hearing reconvened at 1400, 22 July 1947.)
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal is again in session.
JOHANNES HEINRICH BAIER, a witness, took the stand and testified as follows:
JUDGE MUSMANNO: You will please raise your right hand and repeat after me:
I swear by God, the Almighty and Omniscient, that I will speak the pure truth and will withhold and add nothing.
(The witness repeated the oath.)
JUDGE MUSMANNO: You may be seated.
DIRECT EXAMINATION BY DR. FRITSCH:
Q Witness, please give us your full name, your date of birth, and place of birth.
A My name is Johannes Heinrich Baier. I was born on 4 November 1893 at Geestemuende which is now Bremerhaven.
Q Witness, it seems appropriate for me, before I go into your work and curriculum vitae, to give you an opportunity to answer the following question. In the course of this trial did you ever make any statement which did not agree with the facts?
A I have never purposely spoken the untruth. In my affidavit, however, I have made statements which are not correct.
Q Your Honors, I intend to go into the individual points to which the witness is referring later on. This is, however, the affidavit, Document No. 1577. It is in Document Book I, on page 93 of the German text and on page 77 of the English text. It is Exhibit 15.
Witness, please describe your curriculum vitae until the time you left school.
A My father was a goldsmith by profession. He had four children. I am the second oldest child. My parents lived in good conditions, and I first attended the elementary school in my home town. Then I attended Court No. II, Case No. 4.high school.
Finally I attended Reform Real Gymnasium. Then I matriculated and I graduated in 1912.
Q The, witness, you became a pay master in the Navy, is that correct?
A Yes.
Q Did you do that because you liked the military profession or what reasons compelled you to take up this work?
A I wanted to study Philology in order to become a teacher. However, there were not sufficient funds for me to do so. I myself gave lessons to young students and saved up to 1800 marks in that way. However, I had to turn to a practical profession because my father could not support me through the time of the university in order to carry out my studies. It was very difficult for me to choose another profession but the career of pay master in the Navy was pointed out to me. In that time candidates had to apply for that profession. I applied for this work and after passing the examination I was accepted. I took up this profession with a very heavy heart. However, I had to do so for financial reasons.
Q Then, witness, you received the usual training and when did you complete your training and with what results?
A I received my military basic training and first administrative training which lasted until 1913. Then I received an assignment on board a ship in eastern Asia and I returned home 8 days before the first World War broke out.
Q What was your rank when you returned?
A I returned as Chief applicant Pay Officer in the Navy. This corresponds to the rank of Sergeant. That is a non-commissioned rank. I received my first assignment during the War on the liner Braunschweig. This boat was used in the Baltic Sea and I participated in several Naval engagements.
Q Witness, then you fought in the World War up to the end and I am informed that you also went to Constantinopel and other service abroad?
A Yes, that is correct Court No. II, Case No. 4.
Q What happened to you after the end of the War?
AAfter the World War was over I was assigned to Kiel and I served there with the Disarmament Office where the administration for the handling of disarmed vessels was carried out. At the time I was a pay officer in the Navy with the rank of a Naval Lieutenant and I was also an official of the Reich. Since my professional future was very uncertain I began, besides my duty, to study at the University of Kiel and I studied Social Economy. I was still unmarried when on the first of April 1921 I was put on relief. Since the Navy was reduced I had to leave the Naval Service.
Q What do you mean when you say that you were put on relief?
A I received a small salary and I was obliged to again re-enter civil service of the Reich if such a request should reach me.
Q What activity did you carry out during that time?
A I first continued my studies at Goettingen. However, already in the summer of 1921 I received a request to return to civil service of the Reich where I was to work with the Supply Office. Since I would not have liked this activity, I reported for duty with the Reich Administration of Finance. I was accepted and was sent to the Finance Office of my home town at Bremerhaven to work.
Q What activity did you carry out there as an official in the Administration of Finance?
A. I carried out my activity, and I began with the examining of the tax declarations of the people who had to pay income tax. I had to figure out the taxes, and I had to write them down. These taxes included income taxes, the corporation tax, the property tax, and the turnover tax of enterprises.
Q. Did you have to carry out any auditing work with enterprises?
A. I still did interior duty during the first two years of my duty there. In approximately the year 1924 I began to carry out auditing work. At the time I was chief taxation secretary--Obersteversekretaer. My auditing activity in the course of time extended to the auditing of several large individual firms and corporations. They were called big industrial enterprises.
Q. Witness, please tell us very briefly just what you had to audit in the big corporations.
A. I had to look at the books of these corporations, and I had to compare them with the tax declarations submitted by these enterprises, I had to start with the balance sheets, and I had to look back at the property titles, and so on. Therefore, I had to examine everything that appeared in the books with regard to the taxes which were to be paid to the Reich.
Q. Did you also have to observe what happened in the line of production?
A. No, I only had to confine myself to book matters. I could not have examined anything with regard to the production and the operation of these enterprises because I lacked all experience in these things. The finance office had several experts to handle these questions, and whenever it was necessary, the finance office would use these experts. The specific regulations are contained in the Reich tax law.
Q. Finally, you were the chief auditor with the finance office in Bremerhaven, and you became the chief tax inspector; is that correct?
A. Yes.
Q. And then in the year 1935 you again returned to your old profession; that is to say, you returned to the profession of paymaster in the navy. What reasons compelled you to take that step?
A. The army and the navy needed a large number of trained personnel. In the year 1934 the Supreme Command of the navy ordered me to return to my former profession. After some time had passed, I received a notification which conscripted me for 1 November 1935 for service in the navy. On that day I had to report at Wilhelmshaven, and here I became a Kapitaen Lieutnant (V); that is to say, an administrative officer.
Q. Please tell us very briefly about your activity there.
A. The duty there was in the administration of the coast artillery school at Wilhelmshaven, and I was an expert there for expenses which arose out of transfers and leaves.
Q. Did you have any auditing work to do here?
A. Yes. I had to figure out the expenses resulting from travel, and I had to exercise a close control about the actual conditions here, and I had to figure out just how much the figures had been arrived at. This activity, however, was only of a routine nature and it did not satisfy me at all. However, on this subject I want to point out that I was not an active officer but a replacement officer. That means that I could never take over any command on board a ship, and I could never be assigned anywhere abroad. The only advantage for me was in the fact that every month I received about RM 100 more than if I had remained with the Reich Finance Administration. This was very important to me for the reason that I had married in the year 1927 and now had two daughters. However, as far as the work was concerned, I tried to again get away from the navy.
Q. In the year 1937 you left the navy and went to the SS Verfuegungstruppe. Just why did you transfer to that organization? Were you a National Socialist?
A. In the year 1933, after Hitler had seized power and when I was still an official in the Finance Administration, I had joined the NSDAP. Before that I did not have any ties to any party. I was close to the German Peoples' Party up to that time, as far as my political attitude was concerned and as far as voting was concerned. Since the situation in Germany was catastrophic, I hoped in 1933 that the promises which the National Socialists made at that time would come true, and after all these promises were nothing but promises of work and bread. I had hoped that they would be able to fulfill these promises, since I believed that only a concentration of all forces of the people would be successful. Up to that time in Germany we had about 40 or 50 different parties. During my activity as a taxation official, I had watched the collapse and the bankruptcy of the banks and with that the destruction of the livelihoods of thousands of small people, and now I hoped, especially since I did not have any reason at the time to doubt the truth of the promises and intentions of the new government, that the concentration which it intended would be successful.
Q. Did you know the Party program?
A. It is possible that it will sound incredible, but I must unfortunately confess that I did not know it. Only the reasons which I have just mentioned compelled me to join the Party, with the hopes that I have also described before. However, I want to emphasize that I did read the Party program later on.
Q. Did you agree with this Party program?
A. No, I can recall discussions which I had with Finance officials and also with my wife, and in particular I am thinking here of the point "slavery of interests". I did not agree to several points contained in the program. Other points I considered to be exaggerated. That, of course, also included the point which referred to the program with regard to the Jews. As far as the "slavery of interests" was concerned, I knew that these things could not be carried out in practice.
However, I maintained the point of view that in no party could I find agreement of 100 per cent and that no party pursued aims which I could agree with 100 per cent. After all, here we were dealing only with a program and not reality. For this reason I did not have any misgivings for having joined the Party.
In addition to this, even if today we realize that these things were just deceit, in the early years, we had a very large increase in our economy, a very great improvement, and, above all, the large number of unemployed was greatly reduced and nothing happened which anyone could have objected to.
In addition to this, we were also treated by the foreign countries in a very friendly manner, and they paid a very large number of visits to us. Many diplomats visited us, and I could not assume that these were only external appearances. I had the idea that this friendship with Germany in that form was based on honesty.
Q. Did you hold any position within the Party?
A. No, I did not. I did not hold any office in the Party. I merely paid my membership fees of RM 1.80 every month. Furthermore in 1935 when I was assigned to the navy, I left the Party.
Q. Witness, we are now coming back to your field of work. You have stated that you were not satisfied by your work in the navy and that you wanted to get away from this work. How was it that in the year 1937 you transferred to the SS Verfuegungstruppe?
A. In the late fall of 1936 I received a letter from the defendant Pohl. I must add here that in the year 1912 I had begun my career in the navy, together with Pohl. I had been together with him until the time I was given the assignment in Eastern Asis. We had the usual relationships with each other as comrades, and later on we would exchange greetings whenever some official festivities would take place.
Pohl wrote me in this letter that he as SS Administrative Officer at the time needed an expert in the SS who knew something about administration and that he intended to request me from the Supreme Command of the navy.
He told me that he would put me in charge of an SS administrative school which was to be newly established. He himself called me in this letter "a good teacher". This teaching activity attracted me, since ever since my youth I have always had a particular preference for that profession. I declared myself ready to transfer to his unit in order to establish the school. One day in the spring of 1937 I was notified by the Supreme Command of the navy that I was to be transferred to the SS Verfuegungstruppe. By order of the SS Verfuegungstruppe the Supreme Command of the navy had shortly before
THE PRESIDENT: We know the Waffen-SS and the Allgemeine-SS and the Reiter-SS, but what is this last one? We are not familiar with that.
THE WITNESS: That is the SS-Verfuegungstruppe. The SS-Verfuegungstruppe is the unit which later on developed into the Waffen-SS.
THE PRESIDENT: Oh.
BY DR. FRITSCH:
Q Witness, please continue.
A By order of the SS-Verfuegungstruppe the Supreme Command of the Navy a short time before had assigned me to the naval school at Muerwik near Flensburg so that I would become used to the administrative training courses which were carried out for the administrative officers in the Navy. This it becomes evident that in the Verfuegungstruppe I was to be used for the training of administrative officers. The idea which I gained at the naval school I utilized later on when I established the school.
Q Witness, you then reported to Pohl, and he, as you said, was in charge of the SS administrative office in Munich. You then immediately received your assignment as the director of the first training course for administration, is that correct?
A Yes.
Q And how did your activity develop there?
A I received the order, and I had the aim to establish a school, an administrative school for SS administrative officers. Dachau was to be the location of this new school. I was also told to establish my residence at Dachau. The first training course began on the 19th of May, 1937. I was the only full-time teacher. At the same time I was also in charge of the whole training course. Twenty-eight full-time members of the SS-Verfuegungstruppe took part in the first training course. They held the ranks of Unterfuehrer and Obersturmfuehrers. They had already completed their military training at that time.
This training course lasted for approximately one year. The teachers, who were not working on a fulltime basis, were furnished to me from circles of the chief administrative corps at Munich and the technical high school there, and they were not members of the SS. Furthermore, part-time instruction was given by experts of the administrative office. The main subjects which were taught were the accounting system, and the personnel system, the payment system, the travel expenses and expenses arising out of transfers, the billeting service, clothing service, the food supply system, and the budgetary system.
In order to increase their general knowledge and education there, civil and public law were taught, and social science, taxation law, the stock exchange system and commercial bookkeeping. In later training courses and particularly during the war, the Wehrmacht pay law was added, that is, it is E.W.G.G. in the abbreviated form, and the welfare law. The non-administrative subjects during the war were discontinued.
Q Witness, what instruction did you give personally?
A During peacetime, and as long as no full-time teachers were available, I gave instruction in the law with regard to the compensation of travelling and transfers and taxation law and commercial bookkeeping. Furthermore, in accordance with my own tendency, and in particular with the young replacements who came there during the war, I gave general lectures and instruction. Among other things I lectured about Goethe and Napoleon and also about the classic Greek history.
Q Witness, I shall now show you Document Book 11 of the Prosecution. This is Document 2126, Exhibit 298, on page 24 of the German Document Book, and on Page 20 of the English text. This is an affidavit by Philipp Grimm of the 19th of February 1947. Grimm states here that he had participated in an administrative training course of the Waffen-SS, and he says literally, and I quote - It is on page 20 of the English text, Your Honor.
Correction, Your Honor, it is on page 11 of the English text, and I quote. "This school was subordinated to --"
THE PRESIDENT: What document book?
DR. FRITSCH: I beg your pardon, Your Honor, do you want to know the page or the document number? It is in Document Book 11.
BY DR. FRITSCH:
Q "This school was subordinated to the SS-Obersturmbannfuehrer Hans Baier. There the fundamentals of administration were taught for the Waffen-SS. Amongst other things everything was taught there which concerned troop administration in a concentration camp. However the administration of inmates was not taught there." Witness, I now want to ask you, is that statement correct, did you know Grimm?
A No. In view of the large number of students there it was not possible for me to know everyone of them, and it was impossible for me to still remember today. With reference to this statement, I must say that it is correct. However, it might be misunderstood. I want to make the following statement. At the beginning of the war the operation of the school at Dachau was discontinued and sometime later I received the order to give speedy training courses which took place at Berlin-Lichterfelde-West, and I was to train the administrative officers in administrative subjects, that is to say, to give, them further and advanced training. Altogether three training courses took place there. Every training course only lasted for ten to fourteen days, and the number of students there was approximately sixty to eighty students. Here we taught exactly the same administrative subjects which I have already described before. However, they were given very speedy and brief training. With the concentration camp these administrative training courses did not have anything to do The concentration camps were never mentioned there with even one word.
There was no reason for it. I did not know where the various students went after they had once completed their training. I could only have the idea that they were sent to the front. If one or the other, as far as his activity in the Waffen-SS was concerned, was sent to any administrative agency in a concentration camp, I did not have any knowledge of that, and, of course, I did not have any authority to direct this. I did not even hear of such cases. The case of Grimm he has only come to my knowledge as a result of his affidavit.
Q Witness, in these training courses, and at the school at Dachau, no special training was given with regard to the behavior of the SS in the concentration camps. Is that correct?
A No. As I have already stated, there was no reason for it. The administrative officers who were to be trained were soldiers. I have never received any instruction to give them any special training with regard to their behavior towards inmates.
Q Witness, did the students in the administrative school receive any training in the National Socialist ideology, did they receive any special training in that subject?
A No. I want to state once more that the training there only limited itself to the technical administrative questions. Whether one or the other teachers there touched upon ideological things during the professional training. I don't know. However, in the teaching curriculum such training was not included and was not planned in my time. I myself never issued any orders to give such training, and I never noticed anything that such subjects were taught when I examined the progress of the students. As far as the non-professional training of these young people was concerned. I, above all, intended that they should become decent and moral people, and to teach them the fundamentals of a decent and correct attitude and behavior. I tried to achieve this aim that in peacetime. I, in turn, invited my students to my house during the training courses at Dachau, and to actually treat them like members of my family.
During the war, of course, I was not able to issue any such invitations. With particular reference to my oath I can state that never at the school or in my family the persecution of Jews or the pogroms of Jews was propagated. Above all I wanted to have strict discipline in the case of the students, and I can proudly state today that during my activity in the school there never was any reason for me to take any action because of any actions which could be considered as not being moral.
Q Witness, you trained the students to become administrative officers; that is to say, you trained them to become officers in a unit of the Wehrmacht, i. e. Waffen-SS. What became of these students once they had completed their training?
A They were sent to the front -- in peacetime they were sent to troop units with the task of carrying out the administration there of larger or smaller units. They had to choose the finance service or the administrative service. The best students in peacetime -- and even during the war -- were sent to study at a university so that they could prepare themselves for a higher administrative career in accordance with the institutions and customs that existed in the army.
The school was located at Dachau, however at Dachau there was also a concentration camp -- even though it was some distance away from the training school.
Q What contacts did you have with the concentration camps and the administration of the concentration camp?
A Between the school and the concentration camp there was no contact whatsoever in any administrative respect, nor in any factual respect. The same applies to the contact between me and the officers of the concentration camps and the men who were assigned to the concentration camp. I would start my duty punctually in the morning to begin with my work, and I would leave my work punctually at night, and then I would remain during my entire time within the circle of my family, or for the most part I would make the necessary preparations for the training of the next day. Outside of my family I did not have any social contact, and I did not want any because being together with my family was quite sufficient for me, aside from the visits of my students in peacetime -which, of course, was only done in order to help in their education.
Q Witness, did you enter the concentration camp Dachau on one occasion? And just what brought about this visit? Did the Prosecution interrogate you about that once before?
A I have not yet been interrogated on this subject, as far as I can recall.
Approximately in the year 1938 or early in 1939 the students had approached me with a request that they be allowed to carry out an inspection of the concentration camp. It was well known that occasionally inspection tours were carried out by members of the Army, members of the Party, and also by civilians. There was no reason for me not to comply with their request, and with the administrative office at Munich I made a request that I should be permitted to carry out this tour throughout the camp with my students. The administrative office then, as far as I know, had to turn the matter over to a higher agency, but, in any case, some time later I received the permission to enter the camp and to look at the camp together with my students.
The camp had also been informed of our visit and this visit took place with approximately thirty people going through the camp. We were admitted to the protective custody camp, and a Hauptsturmfuehrer was assigned to us to show us the camp.
First of all, he showed us the billets of the inmates, which were clean, and they were kept in immaculate order. There were barracks which had been constructed to withstand the weather, and there were approximately twenty to twenty-five inmates assigned to each barrack; each one of them had his own bed with a mattress, pillow, and blankets. Everything was equipped with bed sheets which were also in a very clean condition. The beds were on top of each other in a double-deck manner, just as had been done for many years in army barracks. Every inmate had his own closet and, furthermore, every group which consisted, as I said before, of twenty to twenty-five men, had their own day room so they could stay there during the daytime. It was equipped with tables and chairs.
I can also remember the existence of a radio there. The hygiene installations were clean, and they corresponded to the purposes they were used for. I can recall that shower facilities also were available. We were then taken to the kitchen. It could be quite easily compared with the kitchen in an army unit, and here also everything was immaculate clean and in order; and the work, for the most part, was carried out by inmates.
We were then taken to the camp dispensary which also was equipped very well, and it met all the requirements of a hospital, as far as we could judge that from what we saw. Here, the bed sheets were white; the nurses, the inmates were dressed just like the medical personnel.
We were then taken to the storage room and here the civilian clothing of the inmates was stored. Above all, it was clothing. And the protective covers had been placed around them, and did bear the names of the inmates who owned this property, and their number. They had been stored in a very orderly fashion.
Finally, we had the opportunity to take a look into the library. We found that they had a large number of excellent books, and we also had the opportunity to talk to the inmates. We were also allowed to ask them why they were incarcerated in a concentration camp.
I cannot recall any case which could have led me to the conclusion that somebody was unjustly imprisoned in this camp. If one considered that these people had violated orders and laws of the Government. Since we were in an SS uniform, I don't know whether the inmates told us the truth.
In one case -- and I can remember that clearly and precisely -we found out that the inmate had told us a lie. Upon a question why he was imprisoned there he told us that he had been imprisoned because of jealousy; and from this we could have drawn the conclusion that somebody had denounced him. When the accompanying officer, however, asked him the same question, he corrected himself to the extent that he had killed his wife, and that he had therefore been punished in this way for his deed.
Q According to the documents which have been submitted here, and according to the other evidence, there cannot be any doubt that, in part at least, the inmates were treated in an inhumane manner. It is understandable that one is surprised that many people who inspected the camps just as you did state, that on the occasion of such a visit, you could not see anything about such atrocities.
Do you believe, witness, that you were intentionally not shown things as they were in reality? Do you have any reason to believe so?
A I don't think so. However, of course, I cannot deny that this possibility exists.
THE PRESIDENT: Was this visit in 1938?
WITNESS: Yes, it was in 1938 or 1939.
THE PRESIDENT: Before the war?
DR. FRITSCH: Yes, before the war.
WITNESS: May I repeat my answer once more?
I don't think so, but I can't deny that this possibility exists. That may have been the case whenever an inspection was carried out. Perhaps we were completely deceived. We were deceived apparently when something was shown to us that the people wanted us to see.
BY DR. FRITSCH (Counsel for defendant Baier):
Q Witness, you mean to say that perhaps the members of the SS were not shown the true state of affairs either?
A. After all, we were not treated any differently. We didn't know about the things and now, whenever I look through the documents and I look at what happened within a small distance from my place of work, I can only think that probably these things were kept secret by virtue of the order of the Fuehrer, so that one had to gain the impression that everything was going all right and in reality we were deceived. I can't deny that this possibility exists.
Q. When you inspected the camp, did you also see inmates at work?
A. No, on the occasion of this visit whenever we saw inmates this was within the concentration camp installations which we entered, the kitchen, and so on. Of course, I also saw inmates outside the camp and I saw them work in public institutions, parks, and so on.
Q. What impression did these inmates give you?
A. All the inmates, those in the protective custody camp and also the inmates which I saw outside the protective custody camp, occasionally would make a good impression, as far as their clothing and physical condition was concerned.
Q. Witness, may I point out that all that happened always around 1938 and 1939?
A. Yes.
Q. That was during the time when you were active at the school?
A. However, this testimony also refers to the time during the war.
Q. Witness--
JUDGE MUSMANNO: That last comment of his sort of puts everything into the air. He said the conditions which he described in 1938 and 1939 also prevailed during the war.
DR. FRITSCH: I beg your pardon, Your Honor, I can't hear very well.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: I understood the witness to say that the conditions which prevailed in 1938 and 1939 in Dachau also prevailed during the war. Now I want to know if I heard that correctly and, if so, does he mean throughout the entire period of the war up to the actual day of surrender?
DR. FRITSCH: I understood the witness to say, Your Honor, that when he saw inmates working outside the camp they made a good impression on him with regard to their clothing and their physical condition, and he said that this did not only apply for the time before the war but also during the war.
May I perhaps ask the witness if I have repeated his statement correctly?
THE WITNESS: With this statement I was trying to express the fact that I observed this whenever I went to work and whenever I came from work and this condition did not change even after the war had begun. In 1943 I was in Dachau and when I went to work and when I came back from work I saw inmates and I could not determine any difference with regard to their clothing and physical condition, as far as they were working outside.
Q. Witness, the question whether this imprisonment was justified has already been repeatedly discussed here. I don't want to go into too much detail here. However, I would like you to tell me your point of view on that subject. In order to put the question more precisely, did you consider the imprisonment of the inmates justified?
A. Yes. I am not a legal man. I can't give you the legal reasons. However, I know that the Reich Government had issued a law and I didn't know that at the time, but I know it today, that it had been issued even on the basis of the Weimar Constitution. I knew that during the First World War such a law already existed.
THE PRESIDENT: What law?
DR. FRITSCH: This was a protective custody law. That is what the witness means.
THE PRESIDENT: He hasn't said so. Is that the law he means?
DR. FRITSCH: The witness stated that during the First World War there also was a law which made it possible to imprison people without any legal procedure.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, all right, go ahead.
Q. Will you continue, witness?
A. We were also told that other countries, for example, England, had established so-called concentration camps.