A. All acts or work and all competences of Chief of W which did not take place within my department, but in the legal Department and the so-called Taxation Department, I had no knowledge about at all.
Q. Now, one of the three departments under Staff W was the Revision or Examination Department and you told us yesterday that it controlled the balance of the companies. Can you tell us very briefly what you meant by that?
A. I think I said yesterday the auditing work was concerned with the annual report, that is to say, the balance sheet, and the profit and loss account.
Q. Don't tell us again what your department did in detail. Just tell me what you mean by control of the balance of the companies.
A. These again are details of a professional nature. You have to find out in an auditing whether, for instance, the evaluation in the balance sheet is correct, whether the writing off is sufficiently high, whether the reserves are also correct, whether the balance has been correctly drawn up from the other books, whether the books themselves are in order, also whether or not the profits and loss accounts have been properly put down in order to shown the economic position of the enterprises, and whether the adjustment between loss and profit has been made in accordance with the law, You have to make a report and to pass judgment. Any deficiencies which strike you concerning the annual report and accounting, you have to point out. That, to put it generally, is the task of an auditor.
Q. And all of the elements of the cost of production are reflected in these balances, are they not?
A. As far as the profit and loss accounts are concerned, only expenses and profits appear which are concentrated together in certain groups for the entire enterprise. For instance, the salaries, appear, the interest, the writing off, the general expenses, income on interest, the profits appear.
Q. Do I understand your testimony to be that at no time did you hear about surgical or medical experiments?
A. Not during the war. I heard about them only in connection with the Nurnberg trials.
Q. You at no time, while you were working in Amtsgruppe W heard about them?
A. Never.
Q. During the course of your auditing work with the WVHA, did you learn of any property in the occupied territories that had been seized or confiscated which being used or operated by any of the industries affiliated with the WVHA?
A. I don't know whether the enterprises for instance in the Eastern Territories had been acquired by seizure or confiscation. I am unable to tell you, nor did I ever do any auditing there and I might point out that during my time a large part of those enterprises had been re occupied by the approaching Russians, always with the result that no auditing was carried out.
Q. You didn't hear at any time then about the nature of the property that the Osti operated, is that your testimony?
A. I am afraid I didn't quite follow.
Q. You didn't hear at any time about the nature the property which the Osti operated? You didn't know where it came from?
A. No, never. I don't know what tasks and duties Osti had.
Court No. II, Case No. 4.
Q Now, I would like for just a moment to direct your attention to the DEST industry. How many of the DEST plants did you visit?
A I accompanied Baier, and Mummenthey was there too, to Oranienburg, I mean, to Berlstedt, to Flossenbuerg, and the Bohemia, but I don't think it was part of this. I think that was a stock company.
Q Did you know Schondorf?
A I met him when I visited Oranienburg.
Q Do you know what position he held in the DEST?
A He was the technical manager of DEST. He was the colleague of Mummenthey in technical matters, and his responsibilities were production questions in their technical aspects.
Q Did you hear anything about Schondorf's reputation as to whether or not he was a brutal man - cruel?
A I heard nothing about that.
Q Can you tell us which of the following people had the primary responsibility for the operation of the DEST industry? We have Mummenthey, who was Chief of Office I, and also business manager; and we have Baier, who was Chief of Staff; we have Georg Loerner, who was deputy chief of the Amtsgruppe; and Pohl, who was Chief of the entire WVHA. Who had the immediate responsibility for operating this industry and its affiliated plants?
A You mean the way the plant was operated, in production?
Q Yes. To see that it was properly run. Whose responsibility was it, in other words, to see that the workers were not overworked, to see that the plant was properly run.
A I believe labor questions - that is to say, anything connected with production and manufacture which includes, of course, the workers, the technical expert Schondorf was responsible.
Q He was subordinate to Mummenthey, was he not?
A No.
Q He wasn't subordinate to Mummenthey as Chief of Office I? You told us yesterday that the Fuehrer Principle applied here, and that the Office Chief could give military commands... You mean to say that Mummenthey Court No. II, Case No. 4.could not give orders to Schondorf?
A I don't know what rank Schondorf had any more, nor do I know the channels between the two. Therefore, I am unable to say anything very much, but as far as the operation of the plant was concerned the military and civil servant regulations are not the decisive elements, but only the regulations under commercial law.
Q Now, now, come... you know very well that the Office Chief would control the operation of the plants... don't you know that? This has nothing to do with commercial law. This is another matter.
A But it has something to do with commercial law because that man became Office Chief for the reason that he was a manager, and therefore had functions under commercial law. I said yesterday that I never fully understood why you had to have, apart from the commercial law organization as a competitor -- I am tempted to say, an organization of the government department. The gentlemen who had definite duties and competencies under commercial law were now organized into a government department. I think the reason there was sort of a hobby of Pohl's.
Q It never occurred to you that it was so that a military command could be established and the Fuehrerprinzip applied. That idea never occurred to you?
A You cannot interpret the Fuehrerprinzip to the facts, in my opinion, that you establish a deliberate violation of commercial law thereby. I believe that the Office Chiefs, should this have happened, by Pohl, would have referred to their obligations under commercial law.
Q And one last question along this line, is it your belief that Mummenthey could not give orders to the people who worked immediately in the DEST industry? Is that your testimony?
A Mummenthey without doubt was, as far as the other people were concerned, the soldiers of a higher in rank and was regarded as the most superior officer. But as far as I know he had no disciplinary authority. The Chief of W, as I remember, had no disciplinary authority.
Q Did you say that an Office Chief had no disciplinary authority?
A In the military sense I don't think he had it. The military Court No. II, Case No. 4.disciplinary was vested in the company of those concerned, not in the Office Chief.
And that came about, in my opinion, because these Office Chiefs were, first of all, managers under commercial law. I think the other Office Chiefs of the WVHA had also disciplinary power. I heard something to the effect at some time.
Q Did you hear at any time about punitive work details in the DEST stone quarries, or in any of the DEST industries?
A You mean punishment companies?
Q Yes, punishment details, work details.
A No.
Q You didn't hear anything about that at any time during the war?
A I heard in the war that there were punishment companies, but I did not hear that punishment companies were employed by DEST.
Q Where did you hear that they were located?
AAt the front for example, I heard and saw that the company next to us was a punishment company of the SS.
Q No, I am talking about punishment companies, punishment details in the concentration camps. Do you mean to say you didn't hear anything about that?
A No, I heard nothing about that.
Q You at no time heard anything about punishment companies in concentration camps?
A No, not during the war.
Q And is it also your testimony that at no time during the war did you hear of any mistreatment of any kind of concentration camp inmates?
A Yes.
Q That you did not hear?
A Not during the war, no.
Q I believe you said that you joined the SS in 1940, became affiliated with the Reiter-SS. As a matter of fact, wasn't it much earlier than that you became affiliated with the Reitersturm?
A No.
Q It wasn't in 1933?
Court No. II, Case No. 4.
A No.
Q You didn't become a member of the Reitersturm Reserve of the SS before 1940?
A No.
MR. ROBBINS: I have no further questions.
THE PRESIDENT: No further questions by defense counsel?
DR. FRITSCH: May it please the Court, I only have two brief questions, so that there will be sufficient time.
BY DR. FRITSCH:
Q Dr. Karoli, the prosecution put approximately this question to you. Baier could carry out tasks and duties without you coming to know anything about them. Of course, that is quite obvious--nobody knows about somebody else. What I want to know is, what were Baier's main duties? Can you tell us that?
THE PRESIDENT: Hasn't he told us that two, three, four times? I know the answer.
DR. FRITSCH: Quite frankly, your Honor, I don't know it myself. I don't know what he is going to say.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, in that event I think you are entitled to find out. He may answer the question.
DR. FRITSCH: Did you hear my question, witness? The question is... or, let me put it... I want you to give us a positive statement in answer to the negative question what Baier actually did.
A I know that Baier as Chief of Staff was above the work done by the offices. He distributed the mail, tried to find out what was going on, he was to see that everybody turned up in the office, everybody had enough work to do. That is what I have to say, but I cannot give you any more details.
Q Witness, you said yesterday that Baier especially read all auditing reports... Did you say that?
A Yes.
Q From your statement I have to deduce that these were fairly considerable reports.
Court No. II, Case No. 4.
A Yes, he studied them, he did not only read them.
Q Would that take a long time, a study as you said?
A I think so. He worked very often on that.
Q Now, I must put this question to you: Would he have had the time to do many other duties, apart from that work -- special duties, for instance.
A No, nor did he do it.
DR. FRITSCH: Thank you very much. I have no further questions.
BY DR. HEIM (For Defendant Hohberg):
Q Dr. Karoli, to the question put to you by the Prosecution, what Dr. Hohberg's functions had been, you said that Dr. Hohberg had been an economic expert. The term "economic expert" - does it describe a function, or an official position?
A If you are an auditor you are usually also an economic expert.
Q Witness, you didn't answer my question.
A I didn't understand it, I am afraid.
Q Let me repeat it.
A I didn't understand it. I know what you said, but I don't know what you are talking about. Be a little more clear.
Q Witness, you can't tell me how to behave here, and besides my question was perfectly clear. You told the Prosecution that Hohberg also had the functions of an economic expert. In how far is the term "economic expert" a function?
A I am totally unable to follow you.
Q Witness, let me give you a small example. Somebody can be a university professor, and then, as I see it, he has the position of a university professor. But also in his capacity as university professor he can be an expert in history, for instance. As an expert as a historian, does he have a function? A function surely expresses itself somehow.
A Do you mean a professional task?
Q I mean function. This comes from the latin term "Fungere".
A That is what I knew.
DR. HEIM: May it please the Court, I have several questions to Court No. II, Case No. 4.ask.
I believe that perhaps the witness could think this over during lunch.
THE PRESIDENT: No, no. Eating dulls one's senses. Let's have him answer this while he is wide awake, and alert, and hungry. Frankly, I don't know what you mean either. Is a professor a function or a person; is an expert a function or a person; I don't know what you mean.
DR. HEIM: May it please the Court, the witness answered Mr. Robbins, when he was asked what Hohberg's functions were apart from Office Chief, that Hohberg was an economic expert. Now, I don't know that an economic expert in his capacity as an economic expert has the function at all... You can't regard that term as a function, in my opinion.
THE PRESIDENT: Oh, oh... well... what you want to know is, what did he do as an economic expert?
DR. HEIM: Yes.
THE PRESIDENT: Ask him that. He was an economic expert. That is a person. Now, what did he do?
BY DR. HEIM:
Q Witness, you said that Dr. Hohberg was an economic expert. What were the tasks he had as an economic expert?
A The tasks of an economic expert in an enterprise depend on individual conditions prevailing in that enterprise. That is what they depend on. They also depend on the people who were in charge of that enterprise. If I, as an auditor, am called into an enterprise in order to act there as an economic expert, then work, which I am doing there, will be entirely molded by the ability, knowledge and economic experience of the man who has called me in. If it is a managing director who calls me in who is a complete expert, knows all about law, balance sheets, commercial organization, and so forth, he will usually only put special questions to me. If that is not the case, if the head is a layman and an amateur, and I would like to call Pohl an amateur, then the tasks of an economic expert, if I have a task as a consultant, are bigger than in the case of an economic expert of high repute. Perhaps I have answered your question now. As I said before, I still don't quite know what you Court No. II, Case No. 4.mean.
Q I am terribly sorry; I shall put further questions to you after lunch.
THE PRESIDENT: No, no.
BY DR. HEIM:
Q Witness, is there a contract which concerns an economic expert?
A There is a contract concerning consultants. Actually, you don't need a contract. It could be an agreement - which makes clear the fact that you have an economic expert who is an auditor.
Q Very nice. Dr. Karoli, you told me this morning that Dr. Hohberg could not have been Office Chief because at the same time he was an auditor; but to Mr. Robbins you said Hohberg had carried out the functions of Chief of Office W. Will you please enlighten me on that contradiction?
A Perhaps you don't remember precisely what I said before.
Q What did you say, witness, then, if I don't remember it?
A What you said that for an auditor to be independent, who was auditing an enterprise as a trustee, he must not become entangled, and I have answered you that was my opinion also. But I left the question open as to whether Dr. Hohberg did not take another view - in fact, the opposite view from mine and thereby in contradiction to professional regulations. And if I may continue, I gave you an indication in that respect by pointing out that in my opinion a complaint had reached the Reich Chamber of Auditors, which is the professional organization, that Dr. Hohberg, it would appear, had violated the principles of an auditor.
Q Do you know how this proceeding ended?
A I don't remember details. But no doubt that was the reason why the German Trusteeship A.G. (Deutsch Revision und Treuhand) was called in, because that question, as far as I know, has been submitted to the Ministry of Economic Affairs and the Ministry insisted on the Trusteeship Company to interfere.
Q All this is very interesting, witness. You said that an Office Chief could issue military orders. What military orders came from Dr. Court No. II, Case No. 4.Hohbert as an Office Chief, although he was not a soldier?
A Here again you don't seem to remember what I have been trying to say. What I said was that Mummenthey as Office Chief, as he was a military, held no doubt a rank superior to those of the other soldiers. But that is all I said about that.
Q But yesterday you said quite generally that the Office Chief had tasks of a military and civil service character. How was that expressed in the case of Dr. Hohbert, especially the military function?
A Do you know, Dr. Heim....?
Q Witness, you cannot ask me any questions.
A In my opinion, also in military offices -- civilians work also in military administrations. In the case of Dr. Hohbert in the WVHA, this was an exception, of course. I don't know any other case, nor can I really decide on that question because all I said - and I must maintain what I said because it is in accordance with what I know - was that I have been informed to the effect, and that it was my impression from the documents, that Hohberg was Chief of Staff W. I never deliberated how did he do this, was he allowed to do that, did he become guilty of violation, or anything else. This would have been a waste of time.
Q Witness, my final question. Did you say here, in prison, that during your interrogation you would incriminate Dr. Hohberg? Did you tell that to anybody outside Nurnberg?
A No.
Q Do you maintain what you said if I tell you that on 10 July of this year I received a telegram to that effect?
A Yes.
DR. HEIM: Thank you very much. No further questions.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal will recess until two o'clock.
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal will recess until 1400 hours.
(Recess)
Court No. II, Case No. 4.
AFTERNOON SESSION (The hearing reconvened at 1400, 22 July 1947.)
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal is again in session.
JOHANNES HEINRICH BAIER, a witness, took the stand and testified as follows:
JUDGE MUSMANNO: You will please raise your right hand and repeat after me:
I swear by God, the Almighty and Omniscient, that I will speak the pure truth and will withhold and add nothing.
(The witness repeated the oath.)
JUDGE MUSMANNO: You may be seated.
DIRECT EXAMINATION BY DR. FRITSCH:
Q Witness, please give us your full name, your date of birth, and place of birth.
A My name is Johannes Heinrich Baier. I was born on 4 November 1893 at Geestemuende which is now Bremerhaven.
Q Witness, it seems appropriate for me, before I go into your work and curriculum vitae, to give you an opportunity to answer the following question. In the course of this trial did you ever make any statement which did not agree with the facts?
A I have never purposely spoken the untruth. In my affidavit, however, I have made statements which are not correct.
Q Your Honors, I intend to go into the individual points to which the witness is referring later on. This is, however, the affidavit, Document No. 1577. It is in Document Book I, on page 93 of the German text and on page 77 of the English text. It is Exhibit 15.
Witness, please describe your curriculum vitae until the time you left school.
A My father was a goldsmith by profession. He had four children. I am the second oldest child. My parents lived in good conditions, and I first attended the elementary school in my home town. Then I attended Court No. II, Case No. 4.high school.
Finally I attended Reform Real Gymnasium. Then I matriculated and I graduated in 1912.
Q The, witness, you became a pay master in the Navy, is that correct?
A Yes.
Q Did you do that because you liked the military profession or what reasons compelled you to take up this work?
A I wanted to study Philology in order to become a teacher. However, there were not sufficient funds for me to do so. I myself gave lessons to young students and saved up to 1800 marks in that way. However, I had to turn to a practical profession because my father could not support me through the time of the university in order to carry out my studies. It was very difficult for me to choose another profession but the career of pay master in the Navy was pointed out to me. In that time candidates had to apply for that profession. I applied for this work and after passing the examination I was accepted. I took up this profession with a very heavy heart. However, I had to do so for financial reasons.
Q Then, witness, you received the usual training and when did you complete your training and with what results?
A I received my military basic training and first administrative training which lasted until 1913. Then I received an assignment on board a ship in eastern Asia and I returned home 8 days before the first World War broke out.
Q What was your rank when you returned?
A I returned as Chief applicant Pay Officer in the Navy. This corresponds to the rank of Sergeant. That is a non-commissioned rank. I received my first assignment during the War on the liner Braunschweig. This boat was used in the Baltic Sea and I participated in several Naval engagements.
Q Witness, then you fought in the World War up to the end and I am informed that you also went to Constantinopel and other service abroad?
A Yes, that is correct Court No. II, Case No. 4.
Q What happened to you after the end of the War?
AAfter the World War was over I was assigned to Kiel and I served there with the Disarmament Office where the administration for the handling of disarmed vessels was carried out. At the time I was a pay officer in the Navy with the rank of a Naval Lieutenant and I was also an official of the Reich. Since my professional future was very uncertain I began, besides my duty, to study at the University of Kiel and I studied Social Economy. I was still unmarried when on the first of April 1921 I was put on relief. Since the Navy was reduced I had to leave the Naval Service.
Q What do you mean when you say that you were put on relief?
A I received a small salary and I was obliged to again re-enter civil service of the Reich if such a request should reach me.
Q What activity did you carry out during that time?
A I first continued my studies at Goettingen. However, already in the summer of 1921 I received a request to return to civil service of the Reich where I was to work with the Supply Office. Since I would not have liked this activity, I reported for duty with the Reich Administration of Finance. I was accepted and was sent to the Finance Office of my home town at Bremerhaven to work.
Q What activity did you carry out there as an official in the Administration of Finance?
A. I carried out my activity, and I began with the examining of the tax declarations of the people who had to pay income tax. I had to figure out the taxes, and I had to write them down. These taxes included income taxes, the corporation tax, the property tax, and the turnover tax of enterprises.
Q. Did you have to carry out any auditing work with enterprises?
A. I still did interior duty during the first two years of my duty there. In approximately the year 1924 I began to carry out auditing work. At the time I was chief taxation secretary--Obersteversekretaer. My auditing activity in the course of time extended to the auditing of several large individual firms and corporations. They were called big industrial enterprises.
Q. Witness, please tell us very briefly just what you had to audit in the big corporations.
A. I had to look at the books of these corporations, and I had to compare them with the tax declarations submitted by these enterprises, I had to start with the balance sheets, and I had to look back at the property titles, and so on. Therefore, I had to examine everything that appeared in the books with regard to the taxes which were to be paid to the Reich.
Q. Did you also have to observe what happened in the line of production?
A. No, I only had to confine myself to book matters. I could not have examined anything with regard to the production and the operation of these enterprises because I lacked all experience in these things. The finance office had several experts to handle these questions, and whenever it was necessary, the finance office would use these experts. The specific regulations are contained in the Reich tax law.
Q. Finally, you were the chief auditor with the finance office in Bremerhaven, and you became the chief tax inspector; is that correct?
A. Yes.
Q. And then in the year 1935 you again returned to your old profession; that is to say, you returned to the profession of paymaster in the navy. What reasons compelled you to take that step?
A. The army and the navy needed a large number of trained personnel. In the year 1934 the Supreme Command of the navy ordered me to return to my former profession. After some time had passed, I received a notification which conscripted me for 1 November 1935 for service in the navy. On that day I had to report at Wilhelmshaven, and here I became a Kapitaen Lieutnant (V); that is to say, an administrative officer.
Q. Please tell us very briefly about your activity there.
A. The duty there was in the administration of the coast artillery school at Wilhelmshaven, and I was an expert there for expenses which arose out of transfers and leaves.
Q. Did you have any auditing work to do here?
A. Yes. I had to figure out the expenses resulting from travel, and I had to exercise a close control about the actual conditions here, and I had to figure out just how much the figures had been arrived at. This activity, however, was only of a routine nature and it did not satisfy me at all. However, on this subject I want to point out that I was not an active officer but a replacement officer. That means that I could never take over any command on board a ship, and I could never be assigned anywhere abroad. The only advantage for me was in the fact that every month I received about RM 100 more than if I had remained with the Reich Finance Administration. This was very important to me for the reason that I had married in the year 1927 and now had two daughters. However, as far as the work was concerned, I tried to again get away from the navy.
Q. In the year 1937 you left the navy and went to the SS Verfuegungstruppe. Just why did you transfer to that organization? Were you a National Socialist?
A. In the year 1933, after Hitler had seized power and when I was still an official in the Finance Administration, I had joined the NSDAP. Before that I did not have any ties to any party. I was close to the German Peoples' Party up to that time, as far as my political attitude was concerned and as far as voting was concerned. Since the situation in Germany was catastrophic, I hoped in 1933 that the promises which the National Socialists made at that time would come true, and after all these promises were nothing but promises of work and bread. I had hoped that they would be able to fulfill these promises, since I believed that only a concentration of all forces of the people would be successful. Up to that time in Germany we had about 40 or 50 different parties. During my activity as a taxation official, I had watched the collapse and the bankruptcy of the banks and with that the destruction of the livelihoods of thousands of small people, and now I hoped, especially since I did not have any reason at the time to doubt the truth of the promises and intentions of the new government, that the concentration which it intended would be successful.
Q. Did you know the Party program?
A. It is possible that it will sound incredible, but I must unfortunately confess that I did not know it. Only the reasons which I have just mentioned compelled me to join the Party, with the hopes that I have also described before. However, I want to emphasize that I did read the Party program later on.
Q. Did you agree with this Party program?
A. No, I can recall discussions which I had with Finance officials and also with my wife, and in particular I am thinking here of the point "slavery of interests". I did not agree to several points contained in the program. Other points I considered to be exaggerated. That, of course, also included the point which referred to the program with regard to the Jews. As far as the "slavery of interests" was concerned, I knew that these things could not be carried out in practice.
However, I maintained the point of view that in no party could I find agreement of 100 per cent and that no party pursued aims which I could agree with 100 per cent. After all, here we were dealing only with a program and not reality. For this reason I did not have any misgivings for having joined the Party.
In addition to this, even if today we realize that these things were just deceit, in the early years, we had a very large increase in our economy, a very great improvement, and, above all, the large number of unemployed was greatly reduced and nothing happened which anyone could have objected to.
In addition to this, we were also treated by the foreign countries in a very friendly manner, and they paid a very large number of visits to us. Many diplomats visited us, and I could not assume that these were only external appearances. I had the idea that this friendship with Germany in that form was based on honesty.
Q. Did you hold any position within the Party?
A. No, I did not. I did not hold any office in the Party. I merely paid my membership fees of RM 1.80 every month. Furthermore in 1935 when I was assigned to the navy, I left the Party.
Q. Witness, we are now coming back to your field of work. You have stated that you were not satisfied by your work in the navy and that you wanted to get away from this work. How was it that in the year 1937 you transferred to the SS Verfuegungstruppe?
A. In the late fall of 1936 I received a letter from the defendant Pohl. I must add here that in the year 1912 I had begun my career in the navy, together with Pohl. I had been together with him until the time I was given the assignment in Eastern Asis. We had the usual relationships with each other as comrades, and later on we would exchange greetings whenever some official festivities would take place.
Pohl wrote me in this letter that he as SS Administrative Officer at the time needed an expert in the SS who knew something about administration and that he intended to request me from the Supreme Command of the navy.
He told me that he would put me in charge of an SS administrative school which was to be newly established. He himself called me in this letter "a good teacher". This teaching activity attracted me, since ever since my youth I have always had a particular preference for that profession. I declared myself ready to transfer to his unit in order to establish the school. One day in the spring of 1937 I was notified by the Supreme Command of the navy that I was to be transferred to the SS Verfuegungstruppe. By order of the SS Verfuegungstruppe the Supreme Command of the navy had shortly before
THE PRESIDENT: We know the Waffen-SS and the Allgemeine-SS and the Reiter-SS, but what is this last one? We are not familiar with that.
THE WITNESS: That is the SS-Verfuegungstruppe. The SS-Verfuegungstruppe is the unit which later on developed into the Waffen-SS.
THE PRESIDENT: Oh.
BY DR. FRITSCH:
Q Witness, please continue.
A By order of the SS-Verfuegungstruppe the Supreme Command of the Navy a short time before had assigned me to the naval school at Muerwik near Flensburg so that I would become used to the administrative training courses which were carried out for the administrative officers in the Navy. This it becomes evident that in the Verfuegungstruppe I was to be used for the training of administrative officers. The idea which I gained at the naval school I utilized later on when I established the school.
Q Witness, you then reported to Pohl, and he, as you said, was in charge of the SS administrative office in Munich. You then immediately received your assignment as the director of the first training course for administration, is that correct?
A Yes.
Q And how did your activity develop there?
A I received the order, and I had the aim to establish a school, an administrative school for SS administrative officers. Dachau was to be the location of this new school. I was also told to establish my residence at Dachau. The first training course began on the 19th of May, 1937. I was the only full-time teacher. At the same time I was also in charge of the whole training course. Twenty-eight full-time members of the SS-Verfuegungstruppe took part in the first training course. They held the ranks of Unterfuehrer and Obersturmfuehrers. They had already completed their military training at that time.