A I do not know that. Your Honor.
Q O, you do know that, don't you?
A I don't know if they received any wages or not.
Q Did you think they did?
A Well, I didn't think that question over at all. All I knew was that the W-Enterprises were paying a certain amount of money for the use of the inmates.
Q They were. That's right. The industries were paying for the use of the inmates. Who got the money?
A Of course, they had to pay something for the billeting and food of the inmates, whether the inmates then still got wages, I didn't know.
Q Now wait a minute.
A I don't know if the inmates received any wages.
Q You did know they didn't receive any wages, didn't you?
A No, I did not know that.
Q You were right in the auditing office and you know that the industries were billed for the labor of the inmates and that the money went into the Reich treasury. Didn't you know that?
Q In the balances of the enterprises which employed inmates, you could only see those expenses which the enterprises had been paying a certain amount went to the Reich treasury for the prisoners, the concentration camp inmates put at the disposal of the factory. What was done with that money I don't know, nor were we interested in our auditing department.
Q Of course not. You don't know what the Reich did with the money.
A The Reich used the money, particularly, I believe, to pay for the billeting and the food of the concentration camp inmates in the concentration camps, and of the entire apparatus that was needed to run the concentration camps.
Q Then you believe that all of the wages that were earned by the inmates was used to support them, to feed them, and shelter them?
A That's right, and also their guards, and the entire apparatus. Your Honor, I never thought anything about that question. If you ask me now, well -
Q Maybe it's time you gave it some thought. It's a little late, but better late than never. You don't call it slavery to forcibly put a man behind a stockade and make him work and make him pay for his own imprisonment?
A The fact that these people had to work was nothing particular, nothing unusual, because everyone of us had to work in Germany during the war. There was a so-called labor conscription law.
Q Yes, and it included men who were your enemies. Russians and Poles who were fighting against you. You made them work too, and all you paid them was food and shelter. Do you call that slavery?
A By slavery I understand that type of work which is performed under abusing the health of the person, that is being used for work independently of his capability of working, his physical capacity, and to use his workings capacity up to the very last; a about that I have to say that according to my impressions which I gained there in the inmate enterprises which I saw - I never saw even the slightest thing that would give me the impression that there was an inhumane utilization of the working capacity of the inmates, in spite of their physical condition -
Q You didn't see anything wrong in forcing a man to work for you whether he wanted to or not?
A I didn't understand the first part of the question.
( The interpreter repeated the question.)
A I did not at all approve of it personally.
Q Then you thought it was wrong?
A I stated before that when they were compelled to work, it did not only apply to the inmates, it applied to our civilian population in Germany.
Q That's right. The German civilian population was compelled to work for Germany, for their country.
A May I state here that it was usual, generally usual that prisoners, even prisoners of war are utilized to do some kind of work. If I can speak about my own experience as a POW in an American PW camp and even as a civilian internee, prisoners who were assigned to various work details are always better off than those who do not have to work, because they get better food, better treatment, and better clothing.
Q Yes, I agree with you. It is better for everybody, lawyers, judges, everybody, to work for a living. Did you say you were an American prisoner of war?
A Yes, I was.
Q Where were you imprisoned?
A In various camps. The last one was in Nurnberg-Langwasser.
Q Let me ask you a question. In any camp that you were imprisoned in, were you required to make war munitions to be used against the Germans?
A No, it was also after the war that I was in a PW camp.
Q Well, were you in a camp before the war ended?
A No, I wasn't.
EXAMINATION BY DR. FRITSCH:
Q Witness, if I can ask you one more question in connection with this problem, did you see any children working?
A No.
Q Did you know where these people came from whom you saw working?
A No, I didn't.
Q And the last question in connection with this problem: who was it that should have paid the wages to the inmates?
Court No. II, Case No. 4.
A Not the W enterprises, but the Reich administration.
Q Who was it that imprisoned the inmates?
A The general administration.
Q The Reich?
A Yes, the Reich.
Q Who was it that received those amounts which the DWB paid?
AAlso the Reich -- the Reich Treasury.
Q Did the Reich Treasury have anything to do with the DWB enterprises?
A No.
Q Witness, I would appreciate it now if you would tell us -if you know anything in the positive sense, if you say anybody taking care of the working inmates, I mean on the part of the DWB enterprises?
A From conversations which I had with a number of gentlemen, particularly with the defendant Mummenthey, it was known to me that the economic enterprises had an interest - a large interest, as a matter of fact, which could be understood from an economic point of view to get good labor. There were interested, therefore, in having workers who were well fed, well treated, and well clothed; and I know, apart from that, also from Mummenthey, that the W enterprises successfully endeavored to get additional rations, food rations and cigarette rations to the inmates in order to increase their output.
Q Witness-
THE PRESIDENT: Don't hurry over that answer. Let us think about that answer for a minute, I know you don't like it, but let us think about it. The only reason the enterprises were anxious to get extra rations was so that they could get more work out of the inmates.
A Undoubtedly, that is the way it always works. The better the working conditions are, the better the person concerned will feel at his working place, the more the factory will do for him, the more gladly if you can use that term in this connection - he will do his work which he is supposed to do.
THE PRESIDENT: In other words, a good horse must have plenty of Court No. II, Case No. 4.oats?
A I didn't get that.
Q (The question was repeated by the interpreter)
A Yes, you can put it that way.
THE PRESIDENT: And when a horse gets sick or old you take him out and shoot him.
A No, I don't do that. I don't believe that the W enterprises did that.
THE PRESIDENT: You know that somebody did it, don't you?
A Yes, this is known to me now. But, unfortunately, I only found out about it after the capitulation.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, in that respect you are no different from any one else that we heard here. Nobody seems to have known about it before. Not even the people that were doing it.
BY DR. FRITSCH:
Q Perhaps, witness, we can talk about this question more in detail. What is the reason you didn't hear about those things?
A The reason for that undoubtedly can be found in the very strict secrecy which was kept, and if you will please recall, at every street comer, in every restaurant, every office, you were requested to keep strict secrecy. If you ever spoke to a soldier, all you could hear, regardless of what kind of soldier he was - Wehrmacht or SS - that daily instructions took place within the Army which reminded the soldiers to keep absolutely quiet about the secrets, and to comply with the secrecy orders, and they also threatened those with sentences and punishments who would violate those regulations concerning secrecy; and as, in general, there was quite a bit of discipline in the German Army, these orders also were strictly complied with. Of course, and particularly by those people who had to deal with confidential matters, and who had to comply with particularly severe orders or had to expect severe punishments for violation of the secrecy regulations.
Q Witness, could you give us an example for this?
A Yes, I could tell you about an example which, however, is in no Court No. II, Case No. 4.direct connection with the concentration camps, and yet it is a question which is rather decisive, in my opinion, concerning the secrecy regulations in Germany.
Should I do that, Dr. Fritsch?
Q Yes, please do.
A I am speaking about the action Gleiwitz Radio Station. For the first time after the end of the war, it had become known in Germany that the Gleiwitz Radio Station had been occupied by German troops wearing Polish uniforms. Hardly anybody in Germany wanted to believe it. Everybody thought that the news was incredible, too shocking, to be believed, and I have to tell you from my own knowledge that I had considerable doubts myself in the credibility of that piece of news, particularly due to the fact that I didn't find anybody among the circle of my friends who could tell me anything that would convince me that that action had actually happened. That was the reason why I decided to wait for a little while, but it was quite soon that I had proof that incident had actually occurred, that the Germans had instigated it. Last spring I met a Hauptscharfuehrer, who was a prisoner; he told me that he had participated in the destruction of the Gleiwitz Radio Station. He told me that he was conscripted to report to a certain location the following day for a special maneuver. During the last few days of August 1939, he, together with fifty others, of whom he knew none, was transferred from Berlin to Upper Silesia. They carried out a few exercises there and one day they were clothed in Polish uniforms, and had to attack the Gleiwitz Radio Station in a fake attack. Prior to that, they had been told that they were not to write any letters, and not tell anybody about where they were. After the action was over they were individually placed before a Commission, and they had to state under oath that they would keep the whole thing a secret. They were threatened on that occasion that on the smallest case of violation which would become known they would not only have to pay with their own lives, but, as it was called in the terminology of Third Reich, they would have to pay with all the members of their family - they all would have to pay for it. They would have to be exterminated, and their property would have to be Court No. II, Case No. 4.confiscated if anybody would say anything about it.
And that man told me that from that day on he didn't have one single moment of happiness. He was constantly being watched by members of the security department. He stated that he was not transferred to the front line in order to prevent him from falling into the enemy's hands. And he could not move one step without being under observation. Then I recall something interesting which I would like to add. When he was in Warsaw or in the Reich staying with his garrison, the troops there were inspected by Himmler. When Himmler watched the parade, he asked him also in what actions he had participated so far, and he quoted as the only action he participated this Gleiwitz Radio Station action by using an abbreviation for it; whereupon Himmler asked him "What kind of an action is that?" and he said, "My Reichsfuehrer, I cannot tell you that, I am under a strict secrecy code." And in spite of the fact that the Reichsfuehrer asked him repeatedly and in a sharp tone of voice, he didn't tell him anything at all but complied with the secrecy regulations and referred to them repeatedly. Finally, the Reichsfuehrer tapped him on the shoulder and told him, according to the sense - I don't remember literally - "Do that at all times and you will never have any difficulties." That man was absolutely happy that finally he was relieved of the order of secrecy. On that day I saw Herr Tschentscher who lived in a barrack next door to mine, Langwasser. I told him all about it. When he didn't believe me, just as I did, I sent that man to him, and Tschentscher then, according to my knowledge, had seen to it that man was brought to Nurnberg as a witness. I believe he is here now. I believe his name was Tschimmek, or something similar to that. According to my opinion this is an evidence for the extremely severe secrecy regulations.
Q Witness, did I understand your statements so far to the effect that neither you nor Herr Baier could gain any insight into all those things in connection with your work, and particularly concerning the exploitation of labor?
A Yes. I never found out anything about it. I could not actually see anything about it, anything that could make me believe that Court No. II, Case No. 4.anything like that existed, and I don't believe Baier knew anything about it.
Q Did defendant Baier supervise the labor in the enterprises?
A No.
Q Witness, apart from the allegations made by the Prosecution that the inmates were worked to death, it is alleged that inhumane experiments were carried out on inmates which led to their death. Do you know anything about that? Did you know anything about it at the time?
A No.
Q After the war you heard about it?
A Yes, of course, particularly in connection with the Nurnberg Trials.
Q Witness, you are undoubtedly familiar with the term "Fuehrer Order", aren't you?
A Fuehrer Order?
Q The "Fuehrer Principle", I am sorry. Was it carried out generally, I mean, also in the WVHA?
A Yes, indeed. It was also carried out undoubtedly in the WVHA. I believe that Herr Pohl, particularly was a man who insisted on the execution of his orders which he thought very important.
Q The non-compliance with any orders given by any superior, was that punishable?
A Yes, indeed. There was the concept of disobedience of orders which was punished, depending upon the circumstances.
Q Witness, we were speaking about medical experiments. I would appreciate it if you would tell me whether administratively those matters had to go through Staff-W in that connection?
A No, Staff-W had nothing to do with that.
Q You never saw any document of any kind. Did you ever hear of any statements which dealt with those things?
A No.
Q The German Medicine, G.m.b.H., Prague, belonged to the German Economic Enterprises, did it not? Do you know that?
A Yes.
Q Did you ever visit the German Medicine G.m.b.H.?
A Yes, I did.
Q Did you find out there whether the drugs prepared there had been invented by experiments on human beings in concentration camps?
A No. I never found out anything about that. According to my knowledge, the Deutsche Heilmittel G.m.b.H. produced in particular certain drugs which had been invented by Professor Fontenelle, or something similar to that, in Leipzig.
Where and if those drugs were ever experimented upon anybody, I doubt that. I don't know if they were tested, nor do I know what were the drugs.
Q Herr Dr. Karoli, did you know that there were prisoners of war also in the concentration camps?
A No, I only found out about that after the capitulation.
Q Did Herr Baier visit the enterprises more frequently than you, or less frequently than you did?
A I could not tell you that for sure. I don't believe he was there more often than I was.
Q Witness, you do know that in the year of 1938, on the 9th or 10th of November, there was a pogrom against the Jews in Germany, didn't you?
At the time you were not an SS member. Now do you know who in particular participated in that action?
A The action was known to the German people as an action of Dr. Goebbels, or the action of the Party; and, I believe that at the time Dr. Goebbels never was more unpopular in Germany than on that particular day, or on those particular days of November 1938, because the majority of the German people, by far the majority of the German people were against these pogroms against the Jews. This not merely for humanitarian nor moral reasons, but also as being a big mistake politically and economically.
Q Witness, the Tribunal will probably want to know why nothing was done about it?
THE PRESIDENT: This was in November of 1938. I want to know why such an unpopular movement was continued for seven years -
THE WITNESS: That is -
THE PRESIDENT: No, for six and one-half years?
THE WITNESS: It is very difficult to explain the whole thing to a foreigner
THE PRESIDENT: Oh, well, I understand fairly well. You try to tell me. I think we can understand. I am taking your own words. You said that in November 1938 the anti-Jewish movement was very unpopular with most of the Germans, both from the moral and economic standards. Is that what you said?
THE WITNESS: No, not quite. I stated that action on the 8th and 9th of November -
THE PRESIDENT: Oh.
THE WITNESS: Was absolutely unpopular.
THE PRESIDENT: You mean the violent action against the Jews was unpopular?
THE WITNESS: Yes, those pogroms against the Jews. Those excesses which were carried out between the night of the 8th and 9th of November in Germany.
THE PRESIDENT: Those were very unpopular and most of the German people were opposed to them?
THE WITNESS: Yes, I would say the overwhelming majority.
THE PRESIDENT: The overwhelming majority of Germans were against that sort of thing, and yet it continued and got worse for six and one-half years?
THE WITNESS: That was an action of which every German could gain an impression, one could see the destruction, or you heard about it. You heard that synagogues were destroyed, but so far as the other measures were concerned which were taken during the war, the German people in its entirety did not know anything about it.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, what about the Jews being also put into trucks right in the public street, with their goods, and hauled away. Everybody could know about that. They could see it. Did you ever see that?
THE WITNESS: Well, Yes, I believe I saw it, but I can not remember it very well.
THE PRESIDENT: It was not very important then?
THE WITNESS: No, I don't believe I can say that. I don't believe it applies to me, but after all the Jews were to be eliminated from the social and economic life in Germany, or what it may be.
THE PRESIDENT: Yes, you were trying to get rid of the Jews, so you brought twelve million of them from the East? Let me say that over again -
THE WITNESS: I don't understand that.
THE PRESIDENT: You wanted to get the Jews out of Germany?
THE WITNESS: The Jews were to be eliminated from the social and business life of Germany.
THE PRESIDENT: Surely so in order to eliminate them, you went into Poland, Russia and Rumania, and all the other Eastern countries and brought twelve million more Jews into Germany?
THE WITNESS: I know nothing about that, no.
THE PRESIDENT: No?
THE WITNESS: I don't know anything about it.
THE PRESIDENT: You did not see any of those in the concentration camps, Eastern Jews?
THE WITNESS: You can not tell the difference. I was never in a concentration camp anyway. I was only in three enterprises and three plants where inmate labor was being used.
THE PRESIDENT: You mean you can not tell an Eastern Jew from a German Jew?
THE WITNESS: Well, I can tell the difference, but I was never confronted with the difference. I am from the East myself, therefore, I do know something about the entire question of the physionomy of the people, if I may use that term, which was known to me.
THE PRESIDENT: All right, that is why I thought you might be able to tell the difference just by looking at them, could you?
THE WITNESS: I can not recall ever having seen any Jews. I can say, where was I to see them. Those enterprises where I was, I don't know even if Jews were there amongst the workers.
THE PRESIDENT: All right. Your witness, Dr. Fritsch.
BY DR. FRITSCH:
Q You had stated that during that action in the November days, had been staged by Dr. Goebbels according to your opinion, the question was a little bit more precise, and I ask you if the SS was the one that participated in this particular pogrom?
AAt the time I was not a member of the SS. Nor was I a member of the Party. The action was not considered an action worked out by the SS. According to my knowledge, particularly in larger cities, for instance, in Berlin, and Vienna, and as far as I can judge, and Munich, the action was carried out without the participation of the SS in it, and at the time it was generally stated that the SS had nothing to do with that action. In this connection I might point out that the SS at the time was considered the most decent organizartion within National Socialism. It had a very good name and kept that name all during the war, due to its achievement's. Only after the capitulation it became known that the SS had committed cruelties in Auschwitz, and other camps, that is a small part of the SS members and today, it looks as if every SS man had been a criminal; it looks as if the entire SS consisted of nothing else but criminals.
Court No. II, Case No. 4.
A (continued) That does not at all comply with reality with the larger mass of the SS, and, particularly since I was not a member of the Party and because I only joined the SS during war, and that under duress, I would like to state that here, namely, that a large number of the SS, particularly SS members on the front line duty, were not at all connected with those things. I am of the conviction that not even 10% of the SS men who fought with the SS and who had died with the SS, would have joined the SS had they known about all those facts or even if they would have had to expect to be used to commit such cruelties in the concentration camps.
Q Herr Dr. Karoly, we will come back now to the defendant Baier. Did you ever discuss any matters, in particular of the SS, with the defendant Baier? Did he recognize those measures or couldn't you speak with him about those things?
A I did speak about those things with Baier repeatedly, also about such questions. And I know that Herr Baier was not a follower of the Fuehrer's principles in that sense and also that he suffered under that principle, particularly when carrying out orders which were absolutely against his convictions. I can recall, for instance, one particular order of Herr Pohl, in the fall or winter of 1944 which had increased the extended time from 7 in the morning to 7 in the evening with a short break for noon. Not only were the people concerned here quite surprised about it but aggravated. And, Herr Baier himself also said that order as such was nonsense because, after all, one cannot ask anybody to work for 12 hours without interruption and sit at his desk for all that time.
Q In spite of that the order was kept up?
A Yes. You must not forget that at that time Berlin was being attacked by bombers all the time. One had to go to the air raid shelter fast in the evening. Then the communication system was very bad. You had a long trip every morning and a long trip to return, for instance. But the order was carried out strictly and controls instituted. If, for instance, at seven in the morning, an officer, even an officer was late, Court No. II, Case No. 4.his name was written down and he was punished.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: The translation came in 1934 and he said 1944.
Q Do you know the name Osti?
A Yes, I do.
Q What was it all about?
A That was a company which, according to my knowledge, was working in the Government General, that is, in the East, at Cracow. But it was not part of Staff W.
Q Were the files kept in Staff W?
A I don't believe so.
Q Do you know, witness, what things the Osti dealt with in detail?
A No.
Q Witness, I shall now put before you a document which is Document NO 2168 from Document Book 19 introduced by the Prosecution. It is Exhibit 494 on Page 107 of the German and 97 of the English Document Book. This is a letter by the business manager of the Osti GMBH, Dr. Max Horn, to the Chief of Staff W, SS-Oberfuehrer Baier. You stated that the Osti was not part of Staff W. How can you explain from your own collaboration in Staff W the fact that those things were addressed and sent to the defendant Baier?
A I have no explanation for that. The only way I can understand that thing is that Herr Pohl for some reason had to deal with that company and since it dealt with the liquidation of Osti GMBH as can be seen in the letter, that is, with questions concerning bookkeeping, this thing was passed on by him to Herr Baier.
Q It would mean, wouldn't it, witness ....
THE PRESIDENT: Who signed this letter? The signature is not on the English document.
DR. FRITSCH: Witness, can you answer that question?
A Yes, it is signed by Horn.
THE PRESIDENT: Signed by Dr. Horn.
A Yes, your Honor. And on the letterhead, is the address of Dr. Court No. II, Case No. 4.Max Horn, Business Manager of Ostindustrie GMBH in liquidation.
Q That would mean, Herr Dr. Karoly, that Herr Baier, apart from those auditing matters and taxation matters which we mentioned, also dealt with special tasks. Do you know anything about that?
A This happened very seldom, however. I can't recall.
Q Isn't that a special task? You said that Osti was not part of DWB. Would Herr Baier then have anything to do with this enterprise?
A Yes, there were a few enterprises which were still dealt with by Amtsgruppe W without belonging to the DWB, for instance, the enterprises of which Herr Klein was in charge, the chief of Office W 8. But the Osti, at least in my time, I don't know how it was before, was not part of Staff W and was not part of the companies which depended on Amtsgruppe W.
Q You did that auditing work. Did you have any success as far as creation of an orderly business management was concerned?
A Yes, undoubtedly I believe that question can be answered in the positive answer.
THE PRESIDENT: We will take a recess Dr. Fritsch.
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal will recess for 15 minutes.
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal is again in session.
BY DR. FRITSCH:
Q Witness, before the recess we stopped when we were discussing the auditing which was actually carried out. You were just going to tell us about the results of this auditing work?
A The collaborating staff in the auditing department itself was very small. It only consisted of seven persons at my time. Inspite of this fact I think that this auditing work was successful, because it primarily served the purpose of bringing order into the accounting system and the bookkeeping system of the companies which had been audited. We were able to inform the business management about the results of our work. After all every auditing has a preventive effect so to speak. All the companies which know that they are to be audited will try on their own initiative to keep their business in such an order that during the actual auditing there will be no reasons for complaints.
Q Whenever you found any irregularities, just what stops did you take? You were just saying that the business management was informed of these things?
A We did not only inform the business management about that, we also had to inform Staff-W and the Chief of the Main Office, Pohl.
Q Did Staff-W, that is to say, Baier, take any steps when such irregularities were determined, I mean were these conditions rectified?
A Yes, without any doubt. If you say, "take any steps", it would be putting it too strongly, because Baier did not have any authority to take any severe steps.
However, he would look over the audit reports very precisely, and then would take notes of all the important things contained in them. That is to say, complaints, and he would then submit the important matters to Pohl, who on his own initiative would take the necessary steps on small matters. Baier would take the necessary steps. He would determine by which method to take the necessary action. Baier was very exacting. He carried out his work in a very precise manner. He saw after it, that everything went in order. Whenever he found something which did not seem to be in perfect order to him, he would report that to Pohl, or he would try to rectify these conditions himself.
Q Just how long was such an auditing report which you received from the auditor.
A Well, that depended on the individual case. Part of the reports were extremely long. Some of them consisted of one-hundred pages, but some of them only included thirty pages. I believe the auditing reports mostly discussed the balance in detail, and also the adjustment between profits and loss were discussed.
Q All these auditing reports of the seven auditors, and all the work which was done by you was read by Baier personally.
A Yes.
Q Doctor Karolli by order of your company, the German Trusteeship and Auditing AG, you were transferred to the staff. May I describe the German Trusteeship and Auditing AG as the biggest auditing company in Germany?
A Yes, by far.
Q And to what extent did the German Trusteeship and Auditing AG itself carry out the auditing work for the DWB Enterprises?
A The order to the German Auditing Company only referred to the DWB, i.e. the holding Company of the concern. The affiliated branches were not to be audited by that company. In order to be able to look into the conditions with regard to the affiliated companies, up on the suggestion of the German Auditing Company, Baier established an auditing department, which had to audit these affiliated companies. And as a result of the reduction in the personnel caused by the war, and since I, also, left, since I had to attend the officers candidate school at Arolsen, the carrying out of the auditing work which had to be done with the affiliated branches became somewhat long. Inspite of this, however, towards the end of 1944, or early 1945, things had developed to such an extent that the German Trusteeship and Auditing Company could be given this auditing work.
Q Did the German Auditing AG supervise the work done by the auditors of Staff-W, which was done for the affiliated companies?
A Yes, as far as the auditing by the affiliated companies was concerned, they obtained precise information about the status and progress of the auditing work. Baier was personally very much interested in this supervision. For that reason he had also requested the German Auditing Company that the policy for the filling out of the reports, and the auditing work was to be worked out by the auditing companies and it was in accordance with these directives that the work was carried out.
Q Did the auditing department already exist before the appointment of Baier to Staff-W?
A Yes, but it existed in another form. The auditing work for the DWB, and its affiliated companies, was carried out under Dr. Hohberg's name as the certified public accountant.
