THE PRESIDENT: I have just been informed that there is some break down defect in the recording. We will have to suspend until that is corrected-- just a few minutes.
It appears that all of the workmen who can fix the sound machine have gone to lunch. I would suggest that it might be a good idea for us to do the same thing. We will convene, however at 1:30 O'clock instead of 1:45. At half past one we will return.
AFTERNOON SESSION.
(The Tribunal reconvened at 1330 hours.)
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal is again in session.
DR. HERMANN KAROLI -- Resumed DIRECT EXAMINATION -- Continued BY DR. FRITSCH (Counsel for defendant Baier):
Q. Witness, we left the business instructions we were talking about this morning, and toward the end of your statement you said that the business instruction was a report in writing of the conditions which existed at the time. Did I understand you correctly, witness?
A. Yes, of course, but there is one limitation to the whole thing in that only questions concerning the balance, taxation matters, and legal matters were discussed and were explicitly stated there. A few additional points of view arose in reference to the other questions. Don't forget that business instruction was nothing but a work schedule, and, like any other schedule, those business instructions stated a situation, a condition, which should be reached. In reality, that condition was nothing but an ideal one, because all those difficulties in 1945 existed an account of the war. It was impossible actually to comply with that business instruction.
Q. Therefore, the situation concerning the activities and tasks between the middle 1943 and 1945 should be discussed. Would you tell me now what the actual activity of Herr Baier was?
A. Herr Baier was the man in charge of Staff W. In Staff W you had three departments, which can be seen in this business instruction, and the legal department, to be exact, consisted of 25 people, of which half were civilian employees and female personnel.
In the legal department, especially commercial matters concerning companies were dealt with. For instance, conferences of notary publics and members of a company, and the conference were prepared there. Commercial register entries were made, and also similar tasks. Apart from that, that department consisted of two, or for a certain period of time of three, collaborators, of whom the two main ones, Dr. Volk and Dr. Hoffman, were very hard to find in their offices because they also had to deal with additional tasks. Herr Dr. Volk was personal consultant to Herr Pohl, and as such he had to take care of secretarial matters and private work for him.
Q. If I may interrupt you, the activity of all these gentlemen and their additional activities are not too interesting. What did the taxation department have to do?
A. The taxation department had to deal with the taxation matters in the companies and to take care of them. Most of the companies in a taxation sense were closely connected with each other in a corporation manner, so that the taxation matters were to be cleared centrally. Apart from that, the taxation department also had the bookkeeping department of the DWB within it. The man in charge of the taxation department was Dr. Wenner, who was the Prokurist of the DWB and at the same time competent for the bookkeeping tasks. The bookkeeping personnel, for the greater part, consisted of civilian employees.
Q. And the Auditing Department?
A. The Department of Audits as an internal auditing institution, that is, without an official influence towards the outside, had to control the annual balances of the individual companies, and also had to look through the accounting system of the companies with a critical eye. If there were discrepancies they were to be brought to the attention of the people there. The main task of that department was to inform the people in that company concerning the bookkeeping, the balance, etc.
Q. And what was Herr Baier within the frame of what you just told us?
A. Herr Baier was the man in charge of that agency. He saw to it, for instance, that those tasks were taken care of in an orderly and punctual manner in all three departments. He distributed the incoming mail, and he supervised the work, as such. As far as things were important, they were signed by him.
Q. I understand you correctly, don't I, witness, that all those things which you stated about Herr Baier only refer to Staff W, and not to Amtsgruppe W?
A. Of course, it only referred to Staff W. As far as the execution and distribution of work was concerned, supervision of the work, of Amtsgruppe W, Herr Baier was not competent. It was not possible from a technical point of view because the W offices were not located in the WVHA building, and were for the larger part, outside of Berlin. Therefore, they had their own agencies.
Q. Was it the task of Herr Baier, as Chief W, to supervise the activities of the chiefs of offices?
A. Yes. However, only in questions dealing with balances, taxation matters, and other legal questions as contained in this business.
Q. Those Amtschiefs, were they under the disciplinary power, or authority, of Baier?
A. No.
Q. Did the defendant Baier have anything to do with other problems? By that I mean for instance, purchase, sales, general produc tion programs, labor assignment questions, etc, etc?
Did he have anything to do with all those things?
A. No. All those tasks were all excepted. Herr Baier was not competent for them. He had nothing to do with managerial and technical questions.
BY JUDGE PHILLIPS:
Q. Who did the defendant Baier succeed as Chief of Staff W?
A. Herr Dr. Hohberg.
Q. And I believe you testified that the defendant Baier went in as Chief of Staff W in 1943; in the fall of the year, November?
A. No; I was the one who went there in November. I said that Herr Baier had been there for two or three months prior to the time that I arrived.
Q. I understood you. He went in the summer, and you went in November.
A. Yes; that is correct. He arrived in the summer, before I did.
Q. How did you know that Dr. Hohberg was Chief of Staff W prior to the defendant Baier if you did not go there until November?
A. I saw that from various papers we had there, from conversations I had in Staff W.
Q. From documents and papers you saw in the office, and conversations you had with people who were working there you came to the conclusion that he was Chief of Staff W prior to Baier?
A. Yes, quite so.
DR. FRITSCH (Counsel for defendant Baier): Your Honor, I would appreciate it if you would permit me to ask that question at a later date and discuss it more explicitly. I could ask it right now if you want me to, but I would have a few more questions to ask him which fit much better in the framework of the whole thing.
BY DR. FRITSCH:
Q. Witness, I would like to talk about a problem now which is in one of the document books introduced by the Prosecution:
Slave Labor. Do you know anything about it?
Let me give you more details about it. The inmates who, on the basis of some sort of measures which I do not have to mention here explicitly, were sent to a concentration camp and this is particularly during the war--had to carry out productive work, and they were also transferred to individual armament factories for work.
What can you tell us about those things from your own knowledge? What can you tell us about this problem?
A. As far as concentration camp questions are concerned, I can't tell you anything at all because I didn't have anything to do with them. All I know is that a few W enterprises employed concentration camp inmates as labor.
Q. Was that only in the W enterprises, or was it also in the other German armament industries?
A. That was no peculiarity on the part of the W enterprises. It is known that in Germany, particularly during the last few years of the war, the conditions on the labor market were rather bad, and that enterprises of the industry were dependent on the so-called foreign labor, and also on the inmates, prisoners; and had to use them in as large an extent as possible in order to be able to fulfil their tasks. This also applied to other German enterprises, not only to the W enterprises.
Q. When you carried out your auditing work together with Herr Baier-- didn't you ever visit factories of the W enterprises. If this is the case, please tell me a few names of such factories.
A. Personally, I didn't go too much to W enterprises because that was the task of auditors who were on the spot and had to carry out their auditions on the spot, whereas I had to direct the operations from the central office; from my desk, so to speak.
In spite of that I went to a few factories. I was in the German Experimental Institute for Food together with Herr Baier, and in his company I also went to see Mummenthey in Oranienburg; and then together with Mummenthey and Baier I was in the Flossenburg concentration camp; then in Berlstedt near Weimar, then in Bohemia near Karlsbad, and others.
Q. Were inmates employed in all those plants?
A. No, in the experimental station, for instance, according to my knowledge, I don't believe they had any.
Q. Did that activity as you just stated that you directed from your desk--does that apply to Herr Baier also?
A. Yes, at least in the same extent as it applied to me.
Q. Did you or Herr Baier gain any knowledge from the books or the reports on the auditing concerning the labor assignment of inmates-and if so, what?
A. I never did look at any such documents, nor did Herr Baier, according to my knowledge. I am quite sure that he never did see anything of the kind.
Q. Excuse me, Witness, wasn't that part of your tasks? Wasn't it part of yours and Herr Baier's tasks to look into those things?
A. No, not at all. Vie had nothing to do with it.
Q. Didn't you see any statistics at any time concerning the employment of inmates and similar things?
A. Personally, I never did see any such statistics, but such statistics were gathered from auditors, in part. That is, they were applied for by the business management of the enterprises, and they were included in the auditing reports in order to generally illustrate the extent of the enterprise. But I never did see any such statistics myself, nor did Herr Baier, I don't believe.
Q. How about the questions of calculations? I am sure that, in the auditing department, you dealt sometimes with general questions of costs and similar things. Didn't the question of cost or of the scale wages of the inmate play any part in there--of the workers, that is. Or wasn't that part of the field of tasks of the Auditing Department?
A. The Auditing Department, as such, only had to figure out the rentability of the companies as a whole. The department did not have to deal with any calculations. Of course, the wage scales for inmate labor were contained in a book, and they were compiled there and they were included in the balance. And that figure appeared in the balances as expenses for wages. But it was not our task to examine the calculations and the wages.
Q. Herr Dr. Karoli, you saw inmates while working?
A. Yes.
Q. I have used the term "Slave Labor" before here in Court. Did you have the impression that was slave labor, that was the explicit use of slave labor and of human beings?
A No, I never did gain the impression that, as far as the labor of the inmates was concerned in the W-Enterprises, it could be considered slave labor. I knew and I have seen inmates at work who were being employed in W-Enterprises. There was nothing unusual in that, because it applies to the whole world that prisoners are used for work so that the labor is not there without any use. And the fact that these inmates were in concentration camps had to be considered as given, first of all, because nothing could be done about it, and, secondly, because the public opinion had been informed by the propaganda, that is the radio, and the press, that those inmates, first of all, were criminals and asocial elements. In part, they were also considered enemies of the State, who had been convicted of some crime or other in a so-called police court and placed in protective custody.
EXAMINATION BY THE PRESIDENT:
Q Witness, did you believe that everyone in concentration camps had been convicted of a crime?
A That was the information -
Q No, no. Did you believe it ?
A Generally speaking, yes.
Q Did you think that the women and children in Ravensbrueck had been convicted of crimes?
A It was alleged that those were mostly criminals and asocial elements and I never did gain an insight into the number of inmates, for instance, in Ravensbrueck, concerning the number and percentage of nationalities and also the reasons which brought them to the concentration camp.
Q I want you to answer my question. Did you believe that the women and children in any concentration camp were convicted criminals?
A No, they had not committed any crimes. I did not believe that they hadn't committed any crimes.
Q He didn't believe that they had committed any crimes. Let's get this straight.
Did you think that the women and children were criminals, yes or no?
A I cannot answer this question with yes or no.
Q Why not? I am simply asking you what you believed. Did you believe the women and children were criminals? You can answer that yes or no.
A Generally speaking I didn't believe it.
Q Well, that's the nearest to yes or no that I can hope for, I guess. Did you think that Russian and Rumanian Jews, who were brought into Germany by the train load, that they had committed some crime against Germany?
A No.
Q Well, then, you knew that the concentration camp inmates were not all criminals. You knew that, didn't you?
A Yes.
Q So that the stories that the radio and the newspapers carried, didn't fool you?
A Not to that extent, no.
Q No? Well, here's one man in Germany apparently who formed his own conclusions in spite of what he was told. You didn't think that the labor was slave labor in concentration camps?
A I didn't quite understand the last question.
Q You did not believe that the labor of the inmates was slave labor?
A I stated that I did not believe that the work performed by the concentration camp inmates in the W-Enterprises was slave labor, but, as far as the work of the inmates in the concentration camps was concerned, I know nothing about it. I couldn't tell you.
Q I did not mean working in the camp, but I mean the work which the inmates did, the inmates of concentration camps, did you think they were paid for it? Did they receive any wages?
A I do not know that. Your Honor.
Q O, you do know that, don't you?
A I don't know if they received any wages or not.
Q Did you think they did?
A Well, I didn't think that question over at all. All I knew was that the W-Enterprises were paying a certain amount of money for the use of the inmates.
Q They were. That's right. The industries were paying for the use of the inmates. Who got the money?
A Of course, they had to pay something for the billeting and food of the inmates, whether the inmates then still got wages, I didn't know.
Q Now wait a minute.
A I don't know if the inmates received any wages.
Q You did know they didn't receive any wages, didn't you?
A No, I did not know that.
Q You were right in the auditing office and you know that the industries were billed for the labor of the inmates and that the money went into the Reich treasury. Didn't you know that?
Q In the balances of the enterprises which employed inmates, you could only see those expenses which the enterprises had been paying a certain amount went to the Reich treasury for the prisoners, the concentration camp inmates put at the disposal of the factory. What was done with that money I don't know, nor were we interested in our auditing department.
Q Of course not. You don't know what the Reich did with the money.
A The Reich used the money, particularly, I believe, to pay for the billeting and the food of the concentration camp inmates in the concentration camps, and of the entire apparatus that was needed to run the concentration camps.
Q Then you believe that all of the wages that were earned by the inmates was used to support them, to feed them, and shelter them?
A That's right, and also their guards, and the entire apparatus. Your Honor, I never thought anything about that question. If you ask me now, well -
Q Maybe it's time you gave it some thought. It's a little late, but better late than never. You don't call it slavery to forcibly put a man behind a stockade and make him work and make him pay for his own imprisonment?
A The fact that these people had to work was nothing particular, nothing unusual, because everyone of us had to work in Germany during the war. There was a so-called labor conscription law.
Q Yes, and it included men who were your enemies. Russians and Poles who were fighting against you. You made them work too, and all you paid them was food and shelter. Do you call that slavery?
A By slavery I understand that type of work which is performed under abusing the health of the person, that is being used for work independently of his capability of working, his physical capacity, and to use his workings capacity up to the very last; a about that I have to say that according to my impressions which I gained there in the inmate enterprises which I saw - I never saw even the slightest thing that would give me the impression that there was an inhumane utilization of the working capacity of the inmates, in spite of their physical condition -
Q You didn't see anything wrong in forcing a man to work for you whether he wanted to or not?
A I didn't understand the first part of the question.
( The interpreter repeated the question.)
A I did not at all approve of it personally.
Q Then you thought it was wrong?
A I stated before that when they were compelled to work, it did not only apply to the inmates, it applied to our civilian population in Germany.
Q That's right. The German civilian population was compelled to work for Germany, for their country.
A May I state here that it was usual, generally usual that prisoners, even prisoners of war are utilized to do some kind of work. If I can speak about my own experience as a POW in an American PW camp and even as a civilian internee, prisoners who were assigned to various work details are always better off than those who do not have to work, because they get better food, better treatment, and better clothing.
Q Yes, I agree with you. It is better for everybody, lawyers, judges, everybody, to work for a living. Did you say you were an American prisoner of war?
A Yes, I was.
Q Where were you imprisoned?
A In various camps. The last one was in Nurnberg-Langwasser.
Q Let me ask you a question. In any camp that you were imprisoned in, were you required to make war munitions to be used against the Germans?
A No, it was also after the war that I was in a PW camp.
Q Well, were you in a camp before the war ended?
A No, I wasn't.
EXAMINATION BY DR. FRITSCH:
Q Witness, if I can ask you one more question in connection with this problem, did you see any children working?
A No.
Q Did you know where these people came from whom you saw working?
A No, I didn't.
Q And the last question in connection with this problem: who was it that should have paid the wages to the inmates?
Court No. II, Case No. 4.
A Not the W enterprises, but the Reich administration.
Q Who was it that imprisoned the inmates?
A The general administration.
Q The Reich?
A Yes, the Reich.
Q Who was it that received those amounts which the DWB paid?
AAlso the Reich -- the Reich Treasury.
Q Did the Reich Treasury have anything to do with the DWB enterprises?
A No.
Q Witness, I would appreciate it now if you would tell us -if you know anything in the positive sense, if you say anybody taking care of the working inmates, I mean on the part of the DWB enterprises?
A From conversations which I had with a number of gentlemen, particularly with the defendant Mummenthey, it was known to me that the economic enterprises had an interest - a large interest, as a matter of fact, which could be understood from an economic point of view to get good labor. There were interested, therefore, in having workers who were well fed, well treated, and well clothed; and I know, apart from that, also from Mummenthey, that the W enterprises successfully endeavored to get additional rations, food rations and cigarette rations to the inmates in order to increase their output.
Q Witness-
THE PRESIDENT: Don't hurry over that answer. Let us think about that answer for a minute, I know you don't like it, but let us think about it. The only reason the enterprises were anxious to get extra rations was so that they could get more work out of the inmates.
A Undoubtedly, that is the way it always works. The better the working conditions are, the better the person concerned will feel at his working place, the more the factory will do for him, the more gladly if you can use that term in this connection - he will do his work which he is supposed to do.
THE PRESIDENT: In other words, a good horse must have plenty of Court No. II, Case No. 4.oats?
A I didn't get that.
Q (The question was repeated by the interpreter)
A Yes, you can put it that way.
THE PRESIDENT: And when a horse gets sick or old you take him out and shoot him.
A No, I don't do that. I don't believe that the W enterprises did that.
THE PRESIDENT: You know that somebody did it, don't you?
A Yes, this is known to me now. But, unfortunately, I only found out about it after the capitulation.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, in that respect you are no different from any one else that we heard here. Nobody seems to have known about it before. Not even the people that were doing it.
BY DR. FRITSCH:
Q Perhaps, witness, we can talk about this question more in detail. What is the reason you didn't hear about those things?
A The reason for that undoubtedly can be found in the very strict secrecy which was kept, and if you will please recall, at every street comer, in every restaurant, every office, you were requested to keep strict secrecy. If you ever spoke to a soldier, all you could hear, regardless of what kind of soldier he was - Wehrmacht or SS - that daily instructions took place within the Army which reminded the soldiers to keep absolutely quiet about the secrets, and to comply with the secrecy orders, and they also threatened those with sentences and punishments who would violate those regulations concerning secrecy; and as, in general, there was quite a bit of discipline in the German Army, these orders also were strictly complied with. Of course, and particularly by those people who had to deal with confidential matters, and who had to comply with particularly severe orders or had to expect severe punishments for violation of the secrecy regulations.
Q Witness, could you give us an example for this?
A Yes, I could tell you about an example which, however, is in no Court No. II, Case No. 4.direct connection with the concentration camps, and yet it is a question which is rather decisive, in my opinion, concerning the secrecy regulations in Germany.
Should I do that, Dr. Fritsch?
Q Yes, please do.
A I am speaking about the action Gleiwitz Radio Station. For the first time after the end of the war, it had become known in Germany that the Gleiwitz Radio Station had been occupied by German troops wearing Polish uniforms. Hardly anybody in Germany wanted to believe it. Everybody thought that the news was incredible, too shocking, to be believed, and I have to tell you from my own knowledge that I had considerable doubts myself in the credibility of that piece of news, particularly due to the fact that I didn't find anybody among the circle of my friends who could tell me anything that would convince me that that action had actually happened. That was the reason why I decided to wait for a little while, but it was quite soon that I had proof that incident had actually occurred, that the Germans had instigated it. Last spring I met a Hauptscharfuehrer, who was a prisoner; he told me that he had participated in the destruction of the Gleiwitz Radio Station. He told me that he was conscripted to report to a certain location the following day for a special maneuver. During the last few days of August 1939, he, together with fifty others, of whom he knew none, was transferred from Berlin to Upper Silesia. They carried out a few exercises there and one day they were clothed in Polish uniforms, and had to attack the Gleiwitz Radio Station in a fake attack. Prior to that, they had been told that they were not to write any letters, and not tell anybody about where they were. After the action was over they were individually placed before a Commission, and they had to state under oath that they would keep the whole thing a secret. They were threatened on that occasion that on the smallest case of violation which would become known they would not only have to pay with their own lives, but, as it was called in the terminology of Third Reich, they would have to pay with all the members of their family - they all would have to pay for it. They would have to be exterminated, and their property would have to be Court No. II, Case No. 4.confiscated if anybody would say anything about it.
And that man told me that from that day on he didn't have one single moment of happiness. He was constantly being watched by members of the security department. He stated that he was not transferred to the front line in order to prevent him from falling into the enemy's hands. And he could not move one step without being under observation. Then I recall something interesting which I would like to add. When he was in Warsaw or in the Reich staying with his garrison, the troops there were inspected by Himmler. When Himmler watched the parade, he asked him also in what actions he had participated so far, and he quoted as the only action he participated this Gleiwitz Radio Station action by using an abbreviation for it; whereupon Himmler asked him "What kind of an action is that?" and he said, "My Reichsfuehrer, I cannot tell you that, I am under a strict secrecy code." And in spite of the fact that the Reichsfuehrer asked him repeatedly and in a sharp tone of voice, he didn't tell him anything at all but complied with the secrecy regulations and referred to them repeatedly. Finally, the Reichsfuehrer tapped him on the shoulder and told him, according to the sense - I don't remember literally - "Do that at all times and you will never have any difficulties." That man was absolutely happy that finally he was relieved of the order of secrecy. On that day I saw Herr Tschentscher who lived in a barrack next door to mine, Langwasser. I told him all about it. When he didn't believe me, just as I did, I sent that man to him, and Tschentscher then, according to my knowledge, had seen to it that man was brought to Nurnberg as a witness. I believe he is here now. I believe his name was Tschimmek, or something similar to that. According to my opinion this is an evidence for the extremely severe secrecy regulations.
Q Witness, did I understand your statements so far to the effect that neither you nor Herr Baier could gain any insight into all those things in connection with your work, and particularly concerning the exploitation of labor?
A Yes. I never found out anything about it. I could not actually see anything about it, anything that could make me believe that Court No. II, Case No. 4.anything like that existed, and I don't believe Baier knew anything about it.
Q Did defendant Baier supervise the labor in the enterprises?
A No.
Q Witness, apart from the allegations made by the Prosecution that the inmates were worked to death, it is alleged that inhumane experiments were carried out on inmates which led to their death. Do you know anything about that? Did you know anything about it at the time?
A No.
Q After the war you heard about it?
A Yes, of course, particularly in connection with the Nurnberg Trials.
Q Witness, you are undoubtedly familiar with the term "Fuehrer Order", aren't you?
A Fuehrer Order?
Q The "Fuehrer Principle", I am sorry. Was it carried out generally, I mean, also in the WVHA?
A Yes, indeed. It was also carried out undoubtedly in the WVHA. I believe that Herr Pohl, particularly was a man who insisted on the execution of his orders which he thought very important.
Q The non-compliance with any orders given by any superior, was that punishable?
A Yes, indeed. There was the concept of disobedience of orders which was punished, depending upon the circumstances.
Q Witness, we were speaking about medical experiments. I would appreciate it if you would tell me whether administratively those matters had to go through Staff-W in that connection?
A No, Staff-W had nothing to do with that.
Q You never saw any document of any kind. Did you ever hear of any statements which dealt with those things?
A No.
Q The German Medicine, G.m.b.H., Prague, belonged to the German Economic Enterprises, did it not? Do you know that?
A Yes.
Q Did you ever visit the German Medicine G.m.b.H.?
A Yes, I did.
Q Did you find out there whether the drugs prepared there had been invented by experiments on human beings in concentration camps?
A No. I never found out anything about that. According to my knowledge, the Deutsche Heilmittel G.m.b.H. produced in particular certain drugs which had been invented by Professor Fontenelle, or something similar to that, in Leipzig.
Where and if those drugs were ever experimented upon anybody, I doubt that. I don't know if they were tested, nor do I know what were the drugs.
Q Herr Dr. Karoli, did you know that there were prisoners of war also in the concentration camps?
A No, I only found out about that after the capitulation.
Q Did Herr Baier visit the enterprises more frequently than you, or less frequently than you did?
A I could not tell you that for sure. I don't believe he was there more often than I was.
Q Witness, you do know that in the year of 1938, on the 9th or 10th of November, there was a pogrom against the Jews in Germany, didn't you?
At the time you were not an SS member. Now do you know who in particular participated in that action?
A The action was known to the German people as an action of Dr. Goebbels, or the action of the Party; and, I believe that at the time Dr. Goebbels never was more unpopular in Germany than on that particular day, or on those particular days of November 1938, because the majority of the German people, by far the majority of the German people were against these pogroms against the Jews. This not merely for humanitarian nor moral reasons, but also as being a big mistake politically and economically.
Q Witness, the Tribunal will probably want to know why nothing was done about it?
THE PRESIDENT: This was in November of 1938. I want to know why such an unpopular movement was continued for seven years -
THE WITNESS: That is -
THE PRESIDENT: No, for six and one-half years?
THE WITNESS: It is very difficult to explain the whole thing to a foreigner