Q Do you know that the Certificate Department of the Auditing Institute had collaborated with you when you audited that Bohemia Institute?
A Yes, we worked on it there.
Q On the basis of your long contact for many years with Dr. Hohberg, do you know anything about his political attitude? What can you tell us about that?
THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Heim, don't we know all about that from your questions this morning?
DR. HEIM: No, sir. The witness, this morning, only spoke about the political attitude of Hohberg at the time when he met him for the first time in 1934 or 1935, but I want him to tell us whether the political attitude of the Defendant Hohberg changed in the course of years or whether his anti-fascist attitudes remained the same as described by him in 1934?
THE PRESIDENT: But you didn't ask it in that form. You didn't ask that question. All right, go ahead. Answer that question.
Q (By Dr. Heim) You have heard my question. Please give us an answer.
A Dr. Hohberg's attitude became more and more intensified in his refusal to collaborate with the Third Reich, particularly, sine in his work with the DWB where he gained an impression from behind the scenes, he learned much about the SS organizations. What he told us about the organization, the SS, as such, and the Third Reich left no doubt as to where he stood.
Q Did Dr. Hohberg conversationally tell you anything about inhumane conditions in concentration camps?
A Yes, Dr. Hohberg reported roughly to me in extracts what became known since the occupation of Germany by the Allied troops, in the papers.
Q What was Dr. Hohberg's own attitude towards this?
A Dr. Hohberg gave me these reports with the highest indignation and horror, and told me that this was a shame for the whole of Germany.
Q Did you know the intention -- why Dr. Hohberg gave you these reports?
A It was my impression that Dr. Hohberg on the one hand wanted to get it off his chest, but also he had the intention to make this information accessible to a larger circle of people.
Q Did he ask you not to talk about these reports?
A No, he never did that.
Q Did Dr. Hohberg towards you say anything -- that it would be much better for him to discontinue his relations with the DWB?
A He said that very frequently. He often used the expression "I must get out of this business." He always used this term "business" in an ironical sense of the word.
Q Do you know how he thought he could get out of it?
A That, again, he told me. He told me, "I shall try, through intermediaries, to join the Wehrmacht. In no case do I wish to join the SS. If I am called up I must serve with the Wehrmacht."
Q Did Dr. Hohberg tell you why he did not terminate his contract with Pohl and the DWB at an earlier date?
A We discussed that frequently and he told me that it wasn't easy, but I don't know when this happened. But Pohl had told him that he could not leave so easily. It was my impression, and Hohberg hinted at that, that he was worried about his family, if and when he would desert Pohl.
Q Do you know whether Dr. Hohberg took any steps in order to be called up by the Wehrmacht?
A Of course, I said just now he tried to get it done. I think he had been trying to do so for at least a year and a half, if not more.
Q Do you know the reason why Hohberg wanted to be called up by the Wehrmacht?
A He simply wanted to get out of the SS. He did not wish to be conscripted into the SS.
Q Did Dr. Hohberg tell you whether there was a reason for his being arrested by the SS?
A Yes, he was extremely worried about that at times, particularly later on when he advocated Dr. May's cause.
Q Did Dr. Hohberg give you a list of Himmler's circle of friends?
A Yes, he gave me that list. He once gave it to me as he was leaving the room.
Q What did he say about that?
A I don't remember him saying anything. He simply gave me the list and he told me, "Here is a list of the circle of friends of the Reichsfuehrer, I think you will be interested."
Q What did you do with the list?
A First of all I locked it up in my desk to keep it, but on some occasion I told my colleagues, Dr. von Auge in particular, about this list, and he wanted to have the list because it was very interesting for us to know that we were working in so many places, which were owned by the more intimate circle of friends of Himmler. Unfortunately, the list was burned when we had an air raid in our building.
Q Do you know whether Dr. Hohberg collected evidence and documents against the leading officers of the SS?
A He told me that at an early date. He said, "I am collecting documents against all leaders of the SS with whom I am in contact." He also said, "I want to keep a record of the irregularities, offenses against the war economic laws, and at the end of the war I shall be able to speak about these things."
Q You spoke just now of Dr. May's case. What did Dr. Hohberg tell you about that?
A Dr. Hohberg said this about Dr. May: Dr. May (whom I myself had met briefly) was an extremely capable industrialist from the furniture branch. He had built wooden wings and was an extremely good constructor. Pohl had asked May to have enterprises belonging to May turned over to him, Pohl, or the SS. May had refused to do so, and had thereupon been taken to the Gestapo prison at the Albrechtstrasse. He, Hohberg, had tried to help Dr. May on frequent occasions, but he had not been successful. In the end Dr. May had fallen ill in prison, suffering from TB. This had infuriated me to such an extent that whenever Hohberg visited me I received him with the words, "What have you done about May?" and in the end he said, in despair, "There is nothing I can do any more because Pohl has expressly told me not to interfere in the whole matter, and he said he would be very indignant if I continued to do something for him.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: In all of this conversation he was having with you about SS members, did he tell you anything about Pohl, Frank, Georg Loerner, or any of them? Did he express his opinion about any of them to you?
A no, he gave me his opinion about Pohl very frequently.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: What did he say about him?
A What he said about Pohl, the description he gave of Pohl I can only say in one word. He said -- at least the contents of what he said was that in his opinion Pohl was one of the biggest criminals of the world's history.
BY DR. HEIN:
Q Witness, what did Dr. Hohberg say at the time, about the SS men, and the SS leaders in particular?
A Hohberg made derogatory remarks about the SS leaders. I remember one example particularly. He studied a piece of scalp and he told me, "This is an SS man." I asked him, "What do you mean?"
He said, "He has a fine body but a small brain."
Q Dr. Wolf, were you ever in the office of the defendant Hohberg?
A I went to his office quite frequently, in the building "Unter den Eichen". No in the other office.
Q If I understand you correctly Dr. Hohberg had two offices?
A He had a private office too, which I never entered.
Q Do you know where that private office was?
A No, I don't know where that private office was. He asked me to visit him, but I never had the time. I don't recall having been there.
Q Do you know what the posters said outside his office in the building "Unter den Eichen"?
A No, I don't remember. I don't think it would have been anything in particular. I would remember in that case.
Q Did you notice the sign "Office Chief" on the office?
A I heard that term for the first time here in Nurnberg.
Q Did Hohberg at any time tell you what position he had in the WVHA or the DWB?
AAll he said was that he was an auditor for that firm. That his duties were of an organizational and consulting nature.
Q Did he also tell you that apart from that activity he had a private practice?
A Yes, he told me that.
DR. HEIN: I have no further questions to this witness.
THE PRESIDENT: Do you wish to cross examine the witness, Dr. Seidl?
DR. SEIDL: I have a few questions to ask him.
BY DR. SEIDL:
Q Witness, do you know who was the chairman of the Board of Directors of the Auditing Company?
A The Chairman? At what time do you mean?
Q Between 1933 and 1945.
Court No. II, Case No. IV
A Reichsleiter Fehler.
Q Is it correct to say that Reichsleiter Fehler was an Obergruppenfuehrer in the SS?
A I don't know.
Q Were you ever a Party member?
A Yes.
Q Since when were you a Party member?
A Since 1933.
Q Were you a member of any organization of the Party?
A What do you mean by organization?
Q For instance, the SA?
A No.
Q When did you leave the Party?
A I never left the Party.
Q You never left the Party?
A No.
Q Did you hold an office in the Party?
A No.
Court No. II, Case No. 4.
Q You said just how that Hohberg had told you that Polh was the biggest criminal in history.
A One of the biggest - please!
Q I see. Did he give you a reason for that opinion of his?
A I would like to point out, Dr. Seidl, that I said that I merely reproduced his impressions. He had given me these descriptions of life in the concentration camps, and of other things about which he had learned.
Q Did Dr. Hohberg also express to you that he himself had talked to Pohl about conditions in the concentration camps?
A No.
Q Can you imagine why he reached that judgment of Pohl?
A I don't know what you -
DR. HEIM: If the Tribunal please, I object to this question. The witness is here expected to reproduce the opinion which Hohberg held. What was Hohberg thinking at the time. What was on his mind.
THE PRESIDENT: He wants more than that. He wants the witness to imagine what another man's opinion might be. There are three reasons why the question is improper. The objection is sustained.
BY DR. SEIDL:
Q The defendant Hohberg admitted himself yesterday that his opinion at the time did no longer apply today, after he had learned today in this trial, who was really competent. He never gave you any reasons why he had formed that opinion, did he?
A I told you. He worked in that organization, and on the basis of his knowledge about the organization he reached that opinion. On the basis of the experience which he gained there.
Q Although he himself never discussed it with Pohl, particularly conditions in concentration camps?
A He never told me that he had.
DR. SEIDL: He said yesterday that he never talked to Pohl about conditions in concentration camps.
I have no further questions.
Court No. II, Case No. 4.
BY DR. HOFFMANN (For Defendant Scheide):
Q Witness, your testimony has been most refreshing. I would like to ask you... I wanted to ask you, witness, have you been denazified yet?
A No. I would like to say to that question that my files have been lost, which is the only reason.
BY DR. FRITSCH (For Defendant Baier):
Q Witness, I want to out to you an extremely serious question. I am interested in the affair Dr. May. When did this conversation with Dr. Hohberg about Dr. May take place?
A That was before he left the SS, or before he reported to the Wehrmacht. I don't know the exact date.
Q Whom are you talking about now?
A You are asking when Dr. Hohberg told me about the Dr. May affair, and I am telling you it must have been before he left the SS and joined the Wehrmacht, but I don't know the exact date.
Q But you must be able to give me the year, witness; otherwise your memory seems to be very good.
A It must have been in 1943. 1942 or 1943.
Q Did Dr. Hohberg give you details how Dr. May managed to obtain Butschowitz?
A No.
Q Do you know why Dr. May was arrested?
A I can only tell you what Dr. Hohberg told me.
Q If you can tell us in a few words, I should be very much obliged.
A Dr. Hohberg told me that Pohl wanted to have the enterprises of Dr. May, and that Dr. May had refused to turn the enterprises over.
Q Therefore, the purchase of the Butschowitz Works must have taken place after Dr. May's arrest, didn't it?
A I know nothing about Butschowitz.
Q I am sorry, witness, but Pohl comes to see Smith, and tells him, "I want to have Butschowitz." Dr. May says, "I am not going to give Court No. II, Case No. 4.it to you."
Thereupon, Pohl goes and has Dr. May arrested, and acquires Butschowitz. That is what I deduce from your description.
A I don't know whether Pohl acquired Butschowitz. All I said was that Dr. May was to turn over the enterprise. Whether he did or not I don't know.
Q Anyway, Pohl had May arrested because May refused to give him Butschowitz. Witness, please tell me yes, or no.
A I know nothing about Butschowitz.
Q Butschowitz is the enterprise with which we are concerned here.
DR. HEIM: Mr. President, I object to the admission of this question. The question should be: What did Dr. Hohberg tell you. The witness is not talking about experiences of his own, but simply what Hohberg told him at the time. The question is far too involved.
DR. FRITSCH: If the Tribunal please, I don't think counsel is right. The witness, with an almost marvelous preciseness of memory tells us how Dr. Hohberg behaves in other things. He says himself that his first question to Dr. Hohberg was: "What about May now?" Of course, then he must have known what had happened to May, and why the man had been arrested. And he speaks about the fact that Pohl wanted to acquire Butschowitz. He gives that as the reason for May's arrest.
THE PRESIDENT: The witness says he knows nothing about it except what Dr. Hohberg told him. Now, it is perfectly proper to ask him: "What did Dr. Hohberg tell you?"
DR. HEIM: Exactly, and the other question which I put to him.
DR. FRITSCH: Mr. President, the question was not what did Hohberg tell you; the question was, roughly, as far as I remember; "When was the enterprise taken over by Pohl? Was it before or after the arrest of Dr. May?"
DR. FRITSCH: Mr. President, I have no other possibility to test the veracity of the witness than by this method.
THE PRESIDENT: The difficulty with your position is that the witness says he knows nothing of his knowledge, only what Dr. Hohberg Court No. II, Case No. 4.told him, and you insist that he shall tell you when Pohl took over Butschowitz.
DR. FRITSCH: Perhaps I may put it more precisely, your Honor.
Q Did Dr. Hohberg tell you that Dr. May, at the instigation of Pohl, had been arrested?
A Yes.
DR. FRITSCH: Thank you very much.
WITNESS: I can only state here that he was not arrested at Pohl's instigation.
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. ROBBINS:
Q Witness, you told us that Hohberg told you he was collecting material that could be used against the SS after the war was over -collecting documents, and so forth. You have not heard of any public statements that Dr. Hohberg made against the SS prior to his being brought to Nurnberg, did you?
A I am afraid I don't follow your question.
Q Did you hear of my public statements Hohberg made against the SS after the war ended, prior to his being brought to Nurnberg? Did you hear of his having given evidence to the Prosecution in any case against any members of the SS?
A I saw Hohberg briefly after the war in Frankfurt, and he told me he had a practice again. We never talked about anything else. But I did tell him I had heard that Pohl had been arrested and I assumed that he probably would also be involved in the trial; and thereupon he said, "I don't think so because, as you know, I was an auditor and I always made the condition not to have to join the SS or the Party or leave the church." He was entirely optimistic and said, "My conscience is clean and nothing will happen to me."
Q He didn't tell you he would volunteer any information against the SS or any members of the SS?
A No.
Q Very well. Now -- in 1933/1934 you told us that Gauleiter Court No. II, Case No. 4.Koch had an auditing firm, and that it was competing with your auditing firm.
Is that right?
A I don't know what year the Koch had founded this company. I don't remember the exact date of that foundation.
Q It was some time prior to 1940, wasn't it?
A Yes, certainly.
Q And through his application, and through his political influence with the Party, he was about to put the firm which you belonged to, and which Hohberg belonged to, out of business, wasn't he?
A Yes.
Q And that was the source of your antagonism toward Koch, wasn't it?
A Not only that. Conditions quite generally aroused my opposition. This was merely a contributing factor.
Q And so your antagonism, and Hohberg's antagonism was directed against the Party at that time, wasn't it?
A That is not quite enough. We had our fundamental attitude against that organization.
Q You were fundamentally opposed to National Socialism. Is that why you joined the Party? You can answer that with yes or no. Is that why you joined the Party? Your opposition to National Socialism?
A Excuse me, sir, I am facing a denazification trial, and some of the defense counsel have already asked me that question. I shall be only too glad to give you my files about the matter.
Court No. II, Case No. 4.
Q I didn't ask you for your files or for any information from your files. As a matter of fact, I will withdraw that question. You told us that you were in possession of information about the SS and that you had heard a good deal about the atrocities committed by the SS. Can you tell us today about any public acts of violence that the SS took part in that you heard about?
A I can only tell you what Dr. Hohberg told me. Would that be enough?
Q All right, tell us what he told you about public acts of violence.
A He told me about human experiments, mistreatment of prisoners and inmates when they had attempted to escape, that women had been whipped, that 60,000 people had to work in stone quarries under extremely harsh conditions, that punishment would be very severe if prisoners attempted to escape--that the whole camp had to pay for it collectively. Those, I think, were the essential things which he reported to me and which I remember at the moment.
Q Did he tell you about gassings at Auschwitz, gassing of inmates and Jews?
A No, he didn't.
Q What did he tell you about medical experiments?
A He told me about experiments. He told me that he had heard about freezing experiments, high altitude experiments, and I remember because he told me that in one case two close friends of the Reichsfuehrer-SS had been called in to watch the experiments and had nearly been killed.
Q What did he tell you about the working conditions that you have just mentioned in the stone quarries? What more did he tell you about the stone quarry conditions?
A He said that working conditions were extremely difficult in some cases and that in some cases peoples' lungs would be affected by the dust in these quarries. On the other hand, he said that in the stone quarries efforts would be made to have skilled workers trained Court No. II, Case No. 4.and that it would be possible for inmates to take their examination as apprentices in these stone quarries.
Q Did he tell you about inmates being worked in these stone quarries to such an extent that they died?
A Not in the stone quarries, no.
Q Where did he say these stone quarries were located? Were these SS stone quarries?
A Excuse me, he spoke about concentration camp inmates who worked in concentration camps. Whether these were SS quarries or any other type of quarries, I don't know.
Q Did he tell you about any acts of violence of the SS that took place outside of concentration camps?
A I don't recall anything.
Q Did you see or hear of any acts of violence of the SS that took place during the war outside of the camps?
A Me? No.
Q It was a perfectly peaceful organization as far as you knew?
A No, not at all.
Q Never persecuted the Jews; never herded the Jews into box cars and deported them outside of Germany? You didn't hear anything about that--burning synogogues?
A But, Mr. Prosecutor, I said myself just now--and that can be testified to in affidavits by American citizens, that I, myself, have helped one Jew to escape. He now lives in Chicago. I protected him during the pogrom, and I have an affidavit.
Q I am not interested in that, witness. You told us that you were collecting evidence against the SS and were in possession of-
A Not I.
Q You said you were a member of an anti-Fascist organization. You weren't interested in collecting evidence? Is that right?
A Excuse me; Dr. Hohberg collected the material.
Q You didn't collect any material?
A No, no, I did not.
Court No. II, Case No. 4.
Q And you did not hear of any public acts of violence that took place in Germany on the part of the SS, other than what Hohberg told you?
A No, I also heard things from other people as well; of course I did.
Q All right, what did you hear about public acts of violence?
A What I heard from other people? Somebody was telling me about the gassing of Jews.
Q When did you hear that?
AAfter the outbreak of the war--in 1940 or 1941 perhaps. I am not quite sure.
Q What else did you hear?
DR. HEIM: It seems to me that Mr. Robbins thinks that Dr. Hohberg is still on the witness stand. This has nothing to do with the veracity of this witness, because the witness is here only to tell us what Dr. Hohberg had told him and what he himself remembers still. Mr. Robbins is now asking him what he heard from other people. It is my opinion that this is entirely uninteresting for this trial because this witness is not a defendant.
MR. ROBBINS: May it please the Tribunal, I don't think that I am restricted in my cross examination to the material that Counsel took up on direct examination. One of the important issues in this trial is what the people in Germany knew about the violence that was being committed by the SS, what was common knowledge, and this witness has given us a good deal of information. I am just trying to find out what he knows.
DR. HEIM: May it please the Tribunal, the witness can never tell us what was generally known in Germany. At the most, he can tell us what he knew, and his testimony is of probative importance only if he can tell us what Dr. Hohberg told him.
MR. ROBBINS: May it please the Tribunal, we have heard ten or more defendants say they heard nothing about any of the acts of violence that the SS took part in. Here is a private citizen in Germany Court No. II, Case No. 4.who heard about these things.
I think that it can be inferred from the testimony of other people who heard about these things that it was common knowledge.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, this testimony is directed not so much against Hohberg, as it is toward the defendants who disclaimed any knowledge of the atrocities?
MR. ROBBINS: That is correct.
THE PRESIDENT: I think this testimony is admissible. This testimony is admissible as an impeachment of the testimony of the defendants and possibly also to establish the fact, the corpus delicti, of unlawful acts by the SS. I think it is admissible on two grounds.
BY MR. ROBBINS:
Q Did you understand the ruling of the Tribunal, witness? Will you tell us what else you heard about violent acts of the SS, public acts?
A I would like to make a brief remark first. You can not say that knowledge which I gained-
Q I didn't ask you that. I just asked you about the information that you obtained. What you heard about. Will you answer my question, and then you can make an explanation.
A I heard, for instance, when I was in Vienna, that the Jews were being transported to the East; where to I didn't hear. I was told that they were taken to a place near Lublin, but later on I was in Warsaw, and I saw the destruction of the Warsaw ghetto. I also saw the ghettos in other Polish areas.
Q Is that all you heard? Anything else?
A I saw an industrial concentration camp, which was the mechanical workshop at Neubrandenburg. There the whole industrial enterprise was built up in the shape of a concentration camp, where even the engineers had to work who were members of my organization.
Q Where did you spend most of your time during the war? Where were you located?
A Where I was? I had to consult the enterprises, and that took Court No. II, Case No. 4.me all over the place, and I acquired more knowledge than any other German.
I traveled for 200 or 240 days a year. That might be an explanation for the fact that I had so much knowledge. In Berlin I lived only in a hotel for eight years because I always traveled.
Q Where were you when you heard about the atrocities that were committed in the concentration camps? Where were you?
A In Germany.
Q Where in Germany?
A In Berlin, when Dr. Hohberg was telling me these things.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: When you were in Warsaw and other parts of Poland and gained the information that the ghettos had been destroyed, saw that they had been destroyed, did you get the general information from the people as to what became of the Jews that were in the ghettos that were destroyed?
A Not in Warsaw. I only saw the destruction in Warsaw, and somebody described to me the battles which took place, but that was about a fortnight before the Polish uprising in Warsaw. What the destruction of the Warsaw ghetto looked like in detail, I don't know. It happened earlier.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: Didn't you inquire of the people what had become of the Jews that had lived in the ghetto?
A Yes, I asked.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: What did you find out?
A That they all had perished; almost all of them had perished in the ghetto.
BY MR. ROBBINS:
Q Did you ever hear of a circle of people called the Passmann circle?
A No, I never heard that name.
Q Did Hohberg ever tell you anything at all about Frank, August Frank?
A I don't recall it.
Q Did he ever tell you anything about Georg Loerner?
Court No. II, Case No. 4.
A I don't remember.
Q Did he tell you about any one else connected with the WVHA, any office chiefs?
A I said before that I heard the term "office chief" for the first time here in Nurnberg. He only told me the names of Dr. Volk and Dr. Bobermin. I remember those two names because Dr. Bobermin and Dr. Volk had worked in Germany.
Q Did he tell you that he was collecting information against Volk and Bobermin?
A No, he didn't say so.
Q Pohl was the only man connected with the WVHA that he was collecting evidence against; is that right?
A No.
Q Well, whom else was he collecting evidence against in the WVHA?
A I don't know. He said, "I am collecting material against the big shots," or some such expression.
Court No. II, Case No. 4.
Q Did you give an affidavit to Dr. Heim?
A What about?
Q About the activities of Dr. Hohberg? Let me ask you, did you give such an affidavit on the 11th of April, 1947, in Frankfurt?
A Yes, that is correct.
Q At any rate did Dr. Hohberg tell you that it was inevitable that he, Dr. Hohberg, should have certain powers to give directives if his propositions were to be effective?
A I am afraid I didn't follow your question. What do you mean?
Q At any time during the war did Dr. Hohberg make the statement to you that it was inevitable that he, Dr. Hohberg, should have certain powers to give directives if his propositions were to be effective? That is after he took his position with the Amtsgruppe W.
A I cannot recall that.
Q You told us that you had a job with the Bohemia to work out plans to convert a firm from producing a luxury china to utility china. I ask you if that is a normal and usual function of an auditor? Is that usually done in the course of an auditor's business, such work as this, work of this type?
A No. I should explain that perhaps. I couldn't describe the organization of our enterprise in full because the President cut me short. The technical department of which I was in charge was the Staff of Technical Engineers. We were the only enterprise in Germany who had engineers in their auditing department. For that reason we did work which normally would be done by an engineers' office. In that case we were consulting engineers.
Q You didn't lose your membership with the public accountant organization by reason of that, did you?
A I myself am not an auditor and I am not a member of the Institute of Auditors.
Q You are not a public certified accountant? I thought you told us that you were.
A No.
Court No. II, Case No. 4.
MR. ROBBINS: I have no further questions.
BY DR. HOFFMANN:
Q Witness, you said that you knew in 1940 about the gassing of Jews.
A I said I don't remember the exact date.
Q But could it have been 1940?
A Please let me think a moment. The Polish campaign was in 1939, one or two years after the end of the Polish campaign. Yes, it might be '40 or '41.
Q The beginning of 1941 perhaps?
A Please don't tie me down. I can't tell you for certain.
Q From whom did you hear this?
A I said before I heard this on the train. Somebody was telling me. He said one of the most frightful impressions of his life had been when he saw a transport of Jews which somewhere in Poland had been unloaded and which had been full of naked Jews who were then driven into barracks, and I have heard that they were being gassed.
Q What train was that? Where did you go at the time?
A I told you I traveled daily. I can't tell you what particular trip that was. I worked in the Warthegau on dozens of occasions.
Q But this certainly is an important matter. You should have known, you should remember where you heard that first. It is a terrible thing to hear.
A Nevertheless I didn't make a note.
Q But you must remember where it happened.
A I tell you it is a very important matter, that I heard it somewhere in the train in the Warthegau.
Q In the Warthegau?
A Yes, somewhere in a train. Perhaps I went to Posen. I went to Posen very often.
DR. HOFFMANN: Thank you.
BY MR. ROBBINS:
Q Witness, did you tell anybody about this conversation that Court No. II, Case No. 4.you had?
AAbout this thing which I mentioned just now? I told it to persons in our firm, and to other acquaintances and friends in connection with Hohberg's stories, but I must say I was never believed. People told me: "You probably listened to foreign broad cases. This is atrocity propaganda."
THE PRESIDENT: Counsel, did you offer in evidence the affidavits in Book II.
DR. HEIM: May it please the Tribunal, Book II has not been submitted yet for the sole reason that it is ready in English but not in German, and because it is to be expected that the other defense counsel will object because they have not yet received the book.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, this book contains an affidavit by this witness, does it not?
DR. HEIM: Book II? Yes.
THE PRESIDENT: It was sworn to on the 11th of April?
DR. HEIM: Yes, your Honor.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, if any counsel wants to see that affidavit and use it in cross-examination of this witness, they should have a right to do so. You do not have it in German, copies in German?
DR. HEIM: No, your Honor. I only have one private copy. Through the translation department and the reproduction department I have asked for fifteen copies, but I have not received them yet. That is the reason why I haven't offered the document book yet.
THE PRESIDENT: After this witness has testified in person there is no point in submitting an affidavit, but, on the other hand, you have brought such an affidavit into court, and if other counsel wish to use it to cross-examine him, and perhaps impeach him, they should have that right.
DR. HEIM: Your Honor, I will gladly give my one copy to any defense counsel for that purpose.
MR. ROBBINS: May it please the Court, I was going on the assumption that Dr. Heim would offer this affidavit in evidence. It Court No. II, Case No. 4.contains some material that wasn't covered in the testimony.