Speaking of this assignment, he told me that this task also interested him very much, but generally speaking he was not too agreeable to that task due to the fact that he came from a Catholic family and he was opposed to the SS organization.
Q Do you know if there were financial motives which moved Dr. Hohberg to take over that auditing work?
AAt the time we discussed that question in our Vorstand, and again and again I was of the opinion, and I am still of the explicit opinion, that no financial reasons played a part when Dr. Hohberg took that job. I believe there were three motives which I would like to stress. First of all he was interested in his job, then he had the wish to become more independent, and finally, thirdly, he had the possibility here to be able to dodge the draft. I would like to add here that Herr Dr. Hohberg, according to my belief, was an anti-militarist. I would not like to say that he was a deserter but rather he was fundamentally opposed to anything that was military.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: Dr. Heim, before we get too far away from the statement made by the witness, perhaps I took it down incorrectly, and I want to be certain, I understood him to say that Hohberg ceased working with his, the witness's organization, because he, Hohberg, wanted to join an organization closer to the SS. Am I correct in what I have indicated in my notes?
THE WITNESS: No.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: That is the way the translation came through.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: That is the way I got it, and I wanted to be certain.
Q (By Dr. Heim) Witness, I believe there was a misunderstanding here. Witness, this misunderstanding could occur due to your statement because you were speaking of the interests on the part of Herr Dr. Hohberg. You were speaking about his interest as an auditor with some SS organization. Now, will you please explain to us briefly what you meant by saying "interests" or to be interested in an SS organization Court No. II, Case No. 4.when you gave your testimony here?
A He was interested in working with an organization, to work in a large organization, to have a larger field of task. However, the Judge just asked me if I spoke of an organization which was closer. That is a misunderstanding. I stated that it was an organization which was close to the SS.
THE INTERPRETER: That is the literal translation, your Honor.
Q (By Dr. Heim) Witness-
JUDGE MUSMANNO: C-l-o-s-e-d, closed?
THE INTERPRETER: Yes, he means an organization which was close, c-l-o-s-e, to the SS.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: Which was near, in other words?
THE WITNESS: That is correct, it was near to the SS. It was close to the SS.
Q (By Dr. Heim) Witness, do you wish to say by that that Dr. Hohberg maintained a sympathetic attitude toward this organization which was close to the SS?
A No, he was simply interested in the task as such. I stated before that he was fundamentally opposed to the SS. I would also like to state that I asked him, "Tell me, Herr Hohberg, how can you go and work with them?" And he told me, "One of the terms will be that I will not have to join the SS; nor will I have to join the Party; nor will I have to resign from the church."
Q Did Dr. Hohberg at the time tell you what kind of a contract he signed with that organization?
A Dr. Hohberg told me that he had a contract; he had signed a contract as a free auditor.
Q On the basis of your knowledge of the facts, was he independent, or was he just an employee there?
A Dr. Hohberg was independent and not an employee on the basis of that contract as a free auditor.
Q According to the regulations and the law, do you think that Hohberg could have been employed anywhere else as an auditor?
Court No. II, Case No. 4.
A That is absolutely impossible. An auditor can either be independent or he can be employed in an auditing company, and he can only be a Prokurist or a member of the Vorstand. Dr. Hohberg, however, was, and I know that for sure, a member of the Institute of Auditors, and the Institute of Auditors was a top organization of the auditors, to which only those people could belong who were auditors, and at that particular moment when an auditor started an activity or some sort of a job with a private industry, he had to resign from that organization.
Q Therefore, based on your knowledge of the facts, are you in a position to describe to this Tribunal whether Dr. Hohberg would have lost his qualifications as an auditor if he had become an office chief in the WVHA?
A Counsel, I would like to ask you what the term "office chief" stands for. May I tell you the reason for asking that question? If that was a military office, or a military organization, then he could have become a member of a military organization, if he had to carry out a military function. If this is a commercial term then Dr. Hohberg could no longer be a member of the Institute of German Auditors.
Q Witness, I can tell you that Dr. Hohberg could not be an office chief if that term means a military organization because Dr. Hohberg was never a soldier.
MR. ROBBINS: Defense counsel telling the witness what Hohberg could be this is a very plain attempt to lead the witness. The witness has already said that he could be an office chief of a military organization and still retain his membership.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: Just a minute.
DR. HEIM: Your Honor, I would like to object to the objection of the Prosecution and say the following: I simply informed the witness of the fact that Dr. Hohberg, prior to the 30th of June, 1943, was not a soldier so that it could not have been a military function, because a military function can only be carried out by a person who is a soldier.
MR. BOBBINS: Now Defense Counsel is going right ahead and doing the same thing that he was doing before. I think this is an outlandish Court No. II, Case No. 4.case of leading the witness, and telling the witness what to say.
THE PRESIDENT: Of course the difficulty is the witness asked to be led. He asked what the term "office chief" in counsel's question meant, and counsel is trying to tell him what he meant by that form as used in his question. I think what you want to know, Dr. Heim, is whether or not Hohberg could have served on the Board of Directors or the Board of Supervisors of one of the DWB industries and still remain an auditor, is that what you mean?
DR. HEIM: Your Honor, that is the way the question should be formulated.
Q (By Dr. Heim) I simply wanted to ask, do you think it possible that the Defendant Hohberg, as long as he was an auditor, could be a business manager, a Prokurist, a person with the authorization to handle the business in such an enterprise or such a company which he had to audit, or then could he carry out any other commercial function there, even if that commercial function was used somehow differently, by some other company?
A No, that is absolutely impossible.
MP. ROBBINS: That wasn't the question put to the witness, it was whether he could have been an office chief, and the witness gave a very illuminating answer, and it is exactly what the Prosecution has contended all along, that he could have been an office chief and still retain his membership.
DR. HEIM: Mr. President, the allegation made by Mr. Robbins does not quite correspond to the facts. The witness asked me for an illuminating explanation concerning the fact and concerning the term "chief of office". He asked me if that was a military or a commercial term, apparently because that name hadn't become known to him in his practice. Therefore, I really do not see gust how far the objection on the part of the Prosecution is justified.
Court No. II, Case No. 4.
MR. ROBBINS: Well, let's let the witness tell us what he knows about the possibilities of retaining his membership without any leading. That is all the Prosecution is asking.
THE PRESIDENT: Suppose we regard this as the question: What could Hohberg have done without forfeiting his membership in the Auditors' Institute?
BY DR. HEIM (Counsel for Defendant Hohberg):
Q Witness, you just heard the question put to you by the Tribunal. I would appreciate it if you would answer the question for me.
A Dr. Hohberg could carry out every consulting activity which an auditor can conduct. However, I would like to stress this point because I didn't express myself clearly. He cannot carry out any commercial activity according to law in one of the enterprises where he is auditing as a broker, as a business manager, or as a member of the supervisory board. However, if you ask me if he could have been an office chief, then, in this particular case, you are asking me too much. That was the reason why I asked you a question by saying what the term "Office Chief" meant. Of course, an auditor has the right to work in a military organization aside from what he is doing. That was the reason why I asked you what you meant by "Office Chief." Is that a commercial term, or is that a military term?
Q Witness, can a person who is not a soldier carry out a military function, apart from his activity as an auditor?
A Excuse me again. I didn't get that.
Q Now, a man who is not a soldier, apart from his economic auditing work, can he do that?
A No, he cannot.
Q If I understood you correctly, then the following holds true. Dr. Hohberg, while carrying out his activity as an auditor, could not carry out a commercial function, according to the law, of any kind; nor could he, since he was not a soldier, carry out any function in a military organization.
Did I understand you correctly?
Court No. II, Case No. 4.
A Yes.
Q Do you know whether Dr. Hohberg was a member of the Institute of Auditors?
A Yes, he was.
Q You stated before that Dr. Hohberg, in his activity as an auditor, had to comply with certain regulations; namely, that he did not have the right to be an auditor and to carry out certain functions at the same time.
Can you tell us, based on your knowledge of the facts, what department issued those regulations?
A I must tell you that I couldn't answer that for sure; I am not very precise on it. I am a member of the supervisory board of an auditing company, but personally I am not an auditor. As far as I know, however, those regulations were issued by the Institute of Auditors. This is the professional organization of the auditors, and as such, it imposes certain laws and regulations.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: Let me get this straight. Let me ask this one question. Witness, if I understand your testimony correctly, you have stated the following, in substance. While Germany was at war between 1939 and 1945, if Dr. Hohberg, the defendant, had been called in to a military organization and made chief of an office for the purpose of carrying on war industries, or war industries vital to the war effort, in a managerial capacity, that he would have forfeited his membership in the Auditing Institute? Is that correct?
BY DR. HEIM:
Q Witness, would you please answer that question on the part of the Tribunal.
A I didn't quite understand that question because the translation was not very good; but I believe that I can answer it correctly.
I believe that Your Honor asked me whether Dr. Hohberg, if he remained a member of the Auditing Institute, would have been able to carry on work in a war industry in a managerial capacity. Is that correct?
JUDGE PHILLIPS: Yes, that is correct.
Court No. II, Case No. 4.
A No, he couldn't have done that.
BY DR. HEIM:
Q Witness, I would still like to speak about this subject. Apparently this problem has not been quite clarified yet. Is this correct: Did Dr. Hohberg lose his qualifications as an auditor if, at the same time, he worked in any other enterprise in a managerial capacity--not in his capacity as an auditor, but rather supervised and managed the enterprise? Is that correct?
A I don't understand your question.
Q Dr. Hohberg was an auditor?
A Yes.
Q Now, if Dr. Hohberg had managed an economic enterprise, managed or supervised or directed it, do you think that he could have been able to carry on his activity as an auditor?
A Of course, he could have a private practice of his own--and he did have one.
Q Witness, you didn't understand me correctly. I don't mean that Dr. Hohberg was auditing another enterprise. Rather, I mean if he was a member of a board of supervisors or a business manager, if he was active there in one of the enterprises, could he still carry on his activity as an auditor?
A No, he couldn't have done that.
Q Can you tell us if an auditor has the right to issue orders or give advice in those enterprises where he is doing auditing work?
A Well, you cannot very well make a detour around such an authority to give orders. It appears quite often because if an auditor received a special assignment, the man who gave him the auditing assignment, either the manager or a member of the board of supervisors, would ask him to act as liaison, so that he wouldn't have to go and bother people who were members of the board of supervisors or the management. He had certain rights, a certain authority. For instance, when he needed an eraser or a pencil, or when he needed statistics, he didn't have to go to the supervisor, and ask him about it.
Court No. II, Case No. 4.
Q But, by that, the independence of an auditor is not at all touched?
A No.
Q Did Dr. Hohberg, with respect to his former company, use that company in order to clear up economic matters--and by that I mean during that time when he worked as an auditor for the DWB?
A Dr. Hohberg consulted us in two cases. The first case was that of the Bohemia Porcelain Works, and on the second occasion he asked us to compile a report on the auditing work of the Apollinaris. I couldn't tell you when the DWB was established, and I can't tell you with certainty whether the first assignment with the Bohemia was given to him before the DWB existed.
Q Who issued the order in these two cases?
AA certain Herr Moeckl issued that assignment. I don't remember his rank anymore.
At the time I carried out negotiations myself with Herr Moeckl. In the case where the Apollinaris is concerned, I don't know whether Moeckl also gave the orders. The handling of the Apollinaris case was given to my colleague Winkelmann, who was a member of the board of supervisors.
Q With respect to those two orders, was Dr. Hohberg the one who gave the orders?
A No; in those two cases Dr. Hohberg did not appear at all. He was extremely correct in that respect, and he was correct in other smaller matters also. I am thinking of one occasion where I had to have an entry permit for the Protectorate in connection with the Bohemia case, and I asked him if he could possibly be of help to me; but he did not want to sign for that and said that an organization of the DWB, or a department of the DWB, had to do that because he did not have the authority.
THE PRESIDENT: We will recess until one forty-five.
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal is in recess until 1345.
(A recess was taken until 1345 hours.)
AFTERNOON SESSION (The hearing reconvened at 1345 hours, July 18, 1947.)
THE MARSHAL: Take your seats, please.
The Tribunal is again in session.
DR. MAX WOLF -- Resumed DIRECT EXAMINATION -- Continued BY DR. HEIM: (Attorney for the Defendant Hohberg):
Q. Witness, before lunch we stopped when we were discussing the two orders which your firm received. What did the Bohemia assignment deal with and when was it given?
A. The Bohemia assignment was given to me by Herr Moeckl, as I said before lunch. I did not receive the assignment there Unter den Eichen, where the DWB was located, but in some building near the Anhalt Station. That was the only indication for me to find out when the first order was given. The second order was given, as far as I remember, when I was under Den Eichen. The first order was concerned with a general technical certificate to the effect of whether or not the Bohemia was technically sound. The second order was concerned with making propositions as to how one could have this factory, which was producing luxury china, produce consumption china.
Q. Did you on that occasion get to know the concerns of the DWB?
A. No, I did not write the certificate myself, but I had it done by a so-called free assistant, Herr Winnrich of Erfurt. I didn't see anything of that enterprise; except the report, because as it is said in the auditing world, I merely analyzed the enterprises, as we called it.
Q. Were any enterprises employing inmate labor audited by your auditors?
A Our institution never audited such enterprises, but I know, for instance, that the Mechanical Works in Neubrandenbrug -- that was a Luftwaffe enterprise which employed inmates -- was audited by auditors, if I recall rightly, of the German Revisional and Trusteeship Company, which is the official reviewing institute of the German Reich.
Q What was the impression you gained of the enterprises which your firm audited?
THE PRESIDENT: DR. Heim, a question like that just leads to an endless answer, and I don't think we are interested in what kind of an impression he gained. What is the real point that you want to know?
DR. HEIM: What I wanted to know was how these enterprises of the DBW looked which were audited by that firm, particularly, how the commercial side, the accounting and so forth, was dealt with.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, that's a better question. If you want to ask how was the accounting handled, that's a narrow, definite question. Answer that question, please.
Q (By Dr. Heim) Witness, how was the accounting handled and the management, and the bookkeeping, and financial contact, in the enterprises which you audited?
AAs far as the Bohemia was concerned, we had received only a technical assignment and later on, an organizational assignment. My assistant, Dr. Winnrich, reported to me that this was one of the best porcelain factories which he had ever come across. That enterprise, for instance--I recall particularly well--had manufactured the porcelain for the coronation in Egypt.
THE PRESIDENT: That doesn't interest us at all.
Q (By Dr. Heim) Witness, please answer my question. Can you tell us how the commercial management of this enterprise was or are you unable to answer that question?
A No, I am afraid I am unable to answer that question.
Q Do you know that the Certificate Department of the Auditing Institute had collaborated with you when you audited that Bohemia Institute?
A Yes, we worked on it there.
Q On the basis of your long contact for many years with Dr. Hohberg, do you know anything about his political attitude? What can you tell us about that?
THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Heim, don't we know all about that from your questions this morning?
DR. HEIM: No, sir. The witness, this morning, only spoke about the political attitude of Hohberg at the time when he met him for the first time in 1934 or 1935, but I want him to tell us whether the political attitude of the Defendant Hohberg changed in the course of years or whether his anti-fascist attitudes remained the same as described by him in 1934?
THE PRESIDENT: But you didn't ask it in that form. You didn't ask that question. All right, go ahead. Answer that question.
Q (By Dr. Heim) You have heard my question. Please give us an answer.
A Dr. Hohberg's attitude became more and more intensified in his refusal to collaborate with the Third Reich, particularly, sine in his work with the DWB where he gained an impression from behind the scenes, he learned much about the SS organizations. What he told us about the organization, the SS, as such, and the Third Reich left no doubt as to where he stood.
Q Did Dr. Hohberg conversationally tell you anything about inhumane conditions in concentration camps?
A Yes, Dr. Hohberg reported roughly to me in extracts what became known since the occupation of Germany by the Allied troops, in the papers.
Q What was Dr. Hohberg's own attitude towards this?
A Dr. Hohberg gave me these reports with the highest indignation and horror, and told me that this was a shame for the whole of Germany.
Q Did you know the intention -- why Dr. Hohberg gave you these reports?
A It was my impression that Dr. Hohberg on the one hand wanted to get it off his chest, but also he had the intention to make this information accessible to a larger circle of people.
Q Did he ask you not to talk about these reports?
A No, he never did that.
Q Did Dr. Hohberg towards you say anything -- that it would be much better for him to discontinue his relations with the DWB?
A He said that very frequently. He often used the expression "I must get out of this business." He always used this term "business" in an ironical sense of the word.
Q Do you know how he thought he could get out of it?
A That, again, he told me. He told me, "I shall try, through intermediaries, to join the Wehrmacht. In no case do I wish to join the SS. If I am called up I must serve with the Wehrmacht."
Q Did Dr. Hohberg tell you why he did not terminate his contract with Pohl and the DWB at an earlier date?
A We discussed that frequently and he told me that it wasn't easy, but I don't know when this happened. But Pohl had told him that he could not leave so easily. It was my impression, and Hohberg hinted at that, that he was worried about his family, if and when he would desert Pohl.
Q Do you know whether Dr. Hohberg took any steps in order to be called up by the Wehrmacht?
A Of course, I said just now he tried to get it done. I think he had been trying to do so for at least a year and a half, if not more.
Q Do you know the reason why Hohberg wanted to be called up by the Wehrmacht?
A He simply wanted to get out of the SS. He did not wish to be conscripted into the SS.
Q Did Dr. Hohberg tell you whether there was a reason for his being arrested by the SS?
A Yes, he was extremely worried about that at times, particularly later on when he advocated Dr. May's cause.
Q Did Dr. Hohberg give you a list of Himmler's circle of friends?
A Yes, he gave me that list. He once gave it to me as he was leaving the room.
Q What did he say about that?
A I don't remember him saying anything. He simply gave me the list and he told me, "Here is a list of the circle of friends of the Reichsfuehrer, I think you will be interested."
Q What did you do with the list?
A First of all I locked it up in my desk to keep it, but on some occasion I told my colleagues, Dr. von Auge in particular, about this list, and he wanted to have the list because it was very interesting for us to know that we were working in so many places, which were owned by the more intimate circle of friends of Himmler. Unfortunately, the list was burned when we had an air raid in our building.
Q Do you know whether Dr. Hohberg collected evidence and documents against the leading officers of the SS?
A He told me that at an early date. He said, "I am collecting documents against all leaders of the SS with whom I am in contact." He also said, "I want to keep a record of the irregularities, offenses against the war economic laws, and at the end of the war I shall be able to speak about these things."
Q You spoke just now of Dr. May's case. What did Dr. Hohberg tell you about that?
A Dr. Hohberg said this about Dr. May: Dr. May (whom I myself had met briefly) was an extremely capable industrialist from the furniture branch. He had built wooden wings and was an extremely good constructor. Pohl had asked May to have enterprises belonging to May turned over to him, Pohl, or the SS. May had refused to do so, and had thereupon been taken to the Gestapo prison at the Albrechtstrasse. He, Hohberg, had tried to help Dr. May on frequent occasions, but he had not been successful. In the end Dr. May had fallen ill in prison, suffering from TB. This had infuriated me to such an extent that whenever Hohberg visited me I received him with the words, "What have you done about May?" and in the end he said, in despair, "There is nothing I can do any more because Pohl has expressly told me not to interfere in the whole matter, and he said he would be very indignant if I continued to do something for him.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: In all of this conversation he was having with you about SS members, did he tell you anything about Pohl, Frank, Georg Loerner, or any of them? Did he express his opinion about any of them to you?
A no, he gave me his opinion about Pohl very frequently.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: What did he say about him?
A What he said about Pohl, the description he gave of Pohl I can only say in one word. He said -- at least the contents of what he said was that in his opinion Pohl was one of the biggest criminals of the world's history.
BY DR. HEIN:
Q Witness, what did Dr. Hohberg say at the time, about the SS men, and the SS leaders in particular?
A Hohberg made derogatory remarks about the SS leaders. I remember one example particularly. He studied a piece of scalp and he told me, "This is an SS man." I asked him, "What do you mean?"
He said, "He has a fine body but a small brain."
Q Dr. Wolf, were you ever in the office of the defendant Hohberg?
A I went to his office quite frequently, in the building "Unter den Eichen". No in the other office.
Q If I understand you correctly Dr. Hohberg had two offices?
A He had a private office too, which I never entered.
Q Do you know where that private office was?
A No, I don't know where that private office was. He asked me to visit him, but I never had the time. I don't recall having been there.
Q Do you know what the posters said outside his office in the building "Unter den Eichen"?
A No, I don't remember. I don't think it would have been anything in particular. I would remember in that case.
Q Did you notice the sign "Office Chief" on the office?
A I heard that term for the first time here in Nurnberg.
Q Did Hohberg at any time tell you what position he had in the WVHA or the DWB?
AAll he said was that he was an auditor for that firm. That his duties were of an organizational and consulting nature.
Q Did he also tell you that apart from that activity he had a private practice?
A Yes, he told me that.
DR. HEIN: I have no further questions to this witness.
THE PRESIDENT: Do you wish to cross examine the witness, Dr. Seidl?
DR. SEIDL: I have a few questions to ask him.
BY DR. SEIDL:
Q Witness, do you know who was the chairman of the Board of Directors of the Auditing Company?
A The Chairman? At what time do you mean?
Q Between 1933 and 1945.
Court No. II, Case No. IV
A Reichsleiter Fehler.
Q Is it correct to say that Reichsleiter Fehler was an Obergruppenfuehrer in the SS?
A I don't know.
Q Were you ever a Party member?
A Yes.
Q Since when were you a Party member?
A Since 1933.
Q Were you a member of any organization of the Party?
A What do you mean by organization?
Q For instance, the SA?
A No.
Q When did you leave the Party?
A I never left the Party.
Q You never left the Party?
A No.
Q Did you hold an office in the Party?
A No.
Court No. II, Case No. 4.
Q You said just how that Hohberg had told you that Polh was the biggest criminal in history.
A One of the biggest - please!
Q I see. Did he give you a reason for that opinion of his?
A I would like to point out, Dr. Seidl, that I said that I merely reproduced his impressions. He had given me these descriptions of life in the concentration camps, and of other things about which he had learned.
Q Did Dr. Hohberg also express to you that he himself had talked to Pohl about conditions in the concentration camps?
A No.
Q Can you imagine why he reached that judgment of Pohl?
A I don't know what you -
DR. HEIM: If the Tribunal please, I object to this question. The witness is here expected to reproduce the opinion which Hohberg held. What was Hohberg thinking at the time. What was on his mind.
THE PRESIDENT: He wants more than that. He wants the witness to imagine what another man's opinion might be. There are three reasons why the question is improper. The objection is sustained.
BY DR. SEIDL:
Q The defendant Hohberg admitted himself yesterday that his opinion at the time did no longer apply today, after he had learned today in this trial, who was really competent. He never gave you any reasons why he had formed that opinion, did he?
A I told you. He worked in that organization, and on the basis of his knowledge about the organization he reached that opinion. On the basis of the experience which he gained there.
Q Although he himself never discussed it with Pohl, particularly conditions in concentration camps?
A He never told me that he had.
DR. SEIDL: He said yesterday that he never talked to Pohl about conditions in concentration camps.
I have no further questions.
Court No. II, Case No. 4.
BY DR. HOFFMANN (For Defendant Scheide):
Q Witness, your testimony has been most refreshing. I would like to ask you... I wanted to ask you, witness, have you been denazified yet?
A No. I would like to say to that question that my files have been lost, which is the only reason.
BY DR. FRITSCH (For Defendant Baier):
Q Witness, I want to out to you an extremely serious question. I am interested in the affair Dr. May. When did this conversation with Dr. Hohberg about Dr. May take place?
A That was before he left the SS, or before he reported to the Wehrmacht. I don't know the exact date.
Q Whom are you talking about now?
A You are asking when Dr. Hohberg told me about the Dr. May affair, and I am telling you it must have been before he left the SS and joined the Wehrmacht, but I don't know the exact date.
Q But you must be able to give me the year, witness; otherwise your memory seems to be very good.
A It must have been in 1943. 1942 or 1943.
Q Did Dr. Hohberg give you details how Dr. May managed to obtain Butschowitz?
A No.
Q Do you know why Dr. May was arrested?
A I can only tell you what Dr. Hohberg told me.
Q If you can tell us in a few words, I should be very much obliged.
A Dr. Hohberg told me that Pohl wanted to have the enterprises of Dr. May, and that Dr. May had refused to turn the enterprises over.
Q Therefore, the purchase of the Butschowitz Works must have taken place after Dr. May's arrest, didn't it?
A I know nothing about Butschowitz.
Q I am sorry, witness, but Pohl comes to see Smith, and tells him, "I want to have Butschowitz." Dr. May says, "I am not going to give Court No. II, Case No. 4.it to you."
Thereupon, Pohl goes and has Dr. May arrested, and acquires Butschowitz. That is what I deduce from your description.
A I don't know whether Pohl acquired Butschowitz. All I said was that Dr. May was to turn over the enterprise. Whether he did or not I don't know.
Q Anyway, Pohl had May arrested because May refused to give him Butschowitz. Witness, please tell me yes, or no.
A I know nothing about Butschowitz.
Q Butschowitz is the enterprise with which we are concerned here.
DR. HEIM: Mr. President, I object to the admission of this question. The question should be: What did Dr. Hohberg tell you. The witness is not talking about experiences of his own, but simply what Hohberg told him at the time. The question is far too involved.
DR. FRITSCH: If the Tribunal please, I don't think counsel is right. The witness, with an almost marvelous preciseness of memory tells us how Dr. Hohberg behaves in other things. He says himself that his first question to Dr. Hohberg was: "What about May now?" Of course, then he must have known what had happened to May, and why the man had been arrested. And he speaks about the fact that Pohl wanted to acquire Butschowitz. He gives that as the reason for May's arrest.
THE PRESIDENT: The witness says he knows nothing about it except what Dr. Hohberg told him. Now, it is perfectly proper to ask him: "What did Dr. Hohberg tell you?"
DR. HEIM: Exactly, and the other question which I put to him.
DR. FRITSCH: Mr. President, the question was not what did Hohberg tell you; the question was, roughly, as far as I remember; "When was the enterprise taken over by Pohl? Was it before or after the arrest of Dr. May?"
DR. FRITSCH: Mr. President, I have no other possibility to test the veracity of the witness than by this method.
THE PRESIDENT: The difficulty with your position is that the witness says he knows nothing of his knowledge, only what Dr. Hohberg Court No. II, Case No. 4.told him, and you insist that he shall tell you when Pohl took over Butschowitz.
DR. FRITSCH: Perhaps I may put it more precisely, your Honor.
Q Did Dr. Hohberg tell you that Dr. May, at the instigation of Pohl, had been arrested?
A Yes.
DR. FRITSCH: Thank you very much.
WITNESS: I can only state here that he was not arrested at Pohl's instigation.
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. ROBBINS:
Q Witness, you told us that Hohberg told you he was collecting material that could be used against the SS after the war was over -collecting documents, and so forth. You have not heard of any public statements that Dr. Hohberg made against the SS prior to his being brought to Nurnberg, did you?
A I am afraid I don't follow your question.
Q Did you hear of my public statements Hohberg made against the SS after the war ended, prior to his being brought to Nurnberg? Did you hear of his having given evidence to the Prosecution in any case against any members of the SS?
A I saw Hohberg briefly after the war in Frankfurt, and he told me he had a practice again. We never talked about anything else. But I did tell him I had heard that Pohl had been arrested and I assumed that he probably would also be involved in the trial; and thereupon he said, "I don't think so because, as you know, I was an auditor and I always made the condition not to have to join the SS or the Party or leave the church." He was entirely optimistic and said, "My conscience is clean and nothing will happen to me."
Q He didn't tell you he would volunteer any information against the SS or any members of the SS?
A No.
Q Very well. Now -- in 1933/1934 you told us that Gauleiter Court No. II, Case No. 4.Koch had an auditing firm, and that it was competing with your auditing firm.