He had to call in an expert whether he wanted to or not, but otherwise, he did not bother and then bills from various detachments came in by people who could not be treated in the camp dental station. They were treated by civilian dentist and the bills reached Office D-III and we had to check up on the correctness of the figures, the prices, and give the order that they should be paid.
Q.- Witness, who decided on transfers of dentists? Was the leading dentist in a position to have any influence on this?
A.- Transfers of dentists from one field unit to Office D-3, for instance, was done at the order of Office 14 in Office Group D of the Main Operational Office - the Personnel Department there or the main department -- I don't know which one it was. What happened was that the transfer was done, every time, to D-3 from where the dentist concerned was transferred, or assigned somewhere else by Lolling himself. And again he did not stand for any interference. On the contrary, he very frequenly changed without asking me or even informing me. Then transfers from the camps to a field unit were again carried out by the Personnel Office in the Medical Office.
Q.- Who deputized for Lolling during his absence?
A.- Lolling was not absent very often. When he was absent, and I recall one instance in particular, he was represented by a camp medical officer, not being a dentist. Generally it was the Medical Office of Sachsenhausen Camp, but there were others too.
Q.- You frequently mentioned the Medical Office. What office are you talking about; which was competent for the dental service? What amounted to the former Medical Office?
A.- In order to make this quite clear, Office 14 in Office Group D of the Operational Main Office was the "Fuehrungshauptamt," the former Medical Office.
Q.- Now, how would you describe the competence of Office 14 as far as the SS dentists were concerned?
A.- This was the highest agency for all dentists in the SS.
Q.- Was your activity as leading dentist satisfactory to you?
A.- In October I went to Oranienburg, and I had nothing to do. When I was told in Office 14 that I was to go to Oranienburg, I had asked that I shouldn't be sent there because I wanted to be a dentist in a dental station. I was told that I should go there for a brief period of time, and I was consoled with the idea that I would soon be transferred.
I went there in October. My work consisted of reading novels. In the first days of the month reports would come in and once I had looked through those there was nothing to do so I was just hanging around, and I was most unhappy because I knew that the civilian population was living under extremely difficult conditions as far as the shortage of dentists was concerned. I frequently asked for my transfer from Oranienburg in order to be put in charge of a dental station again. That was done by the Medical Office. I was sent to the dental station of Munich Garrison where I worked for two months. That assignment lasted only for two months. In January, 1943 I had to go back, but not to Office D-3. I was tempted by the fact that I was sent to the dental station in Oranienburg where I could do my work as dentist, but again I was under Office Chief Lolling who was also the Garrison doctor of Sachsenhausen; so, therefore, I, for all practical intents and purposes -- I did the same work. This work was entirely unsatisfactory because it was a purely routine work. I simply passed on reports and collected and distributed reports. I had no independence, no responsibility.
THE PRESIDENT: Counsel, this witness is not a defendant, and I don't think that his complete life history interests us.
DR. RATZ: I regard this witness as important, Your Honor, because he was Dr. Pook's predecessor and, therefore, knows on what Pook was working. They were doing the same work and, therefore, I think that his testimony shows that the statements made by Pook were creditable. That is why I asked for the details of his work.
THE PRESIDENT: But whether he was busy or whether he liked his job doesn't seem to have anything to do with Pook?
DR. RATZ: The second reason why he was not satisfied with his work, I shall now discuss, which was connected with Pook. This is Lolling's character. I therefore would like to ask the witness about this second point.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, anything to get you to leave the first point.
BY DR. RATZ:
Q.- You were probably dissatisfied also because your superior officer was not a nice man. Will you tell us about Dr. Lolling's character please?
A.- When I went to Oranienburg I heard that Lolling was a morphium addict. He had just been given treatment to get rid of the habit and was not to come back. At least that is what I was told; and only at the insistence of Gluecks he went back there. He, therefore, in order to become indispensable, did not allow anybody to work independently at his side. He was extremely autocratic and did everything himself.
Q.- Did he allow you any insight into his work?
A.- No, he did not.
Q.- Did you know about medical matters from him -- experiments with inmates, for instance, or did you hear from him or his office about extermination action?
A.- No, this was not the case. When I worked in the Garrison dental station of Oranienburg I went in frequently to the building itself where Lolling's agency was housed. Lolling would not tell me about medical matters -- experiments and extermination actions.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: Counsel, if you have a third point don't you think you can leave the second point now? It's pretty well established that Lolling was a rather disagreeable character.
BY DR. RATZ:
Q.- The third point might be the question of the inspection trips witness Reutter made into the camps. I believe that point again is important because parallels can be drawn between his and Pook's activities. Witness, did you make inspection trips to camps?
A.- Yes, I made a few trips of inspection. I was getting a pass which authorized me to visit the dental stations of the camps, but that did not mean that I could go into any dental station. I tried to do that once.
At Sachsenhausen I did not get inside. Therefore, if I wanted to visit a station I had to be announced in advance. Every visit was previously announced by Lolling. In some cases I went alone, and in others with Lolling. And perhaps I could briefly describe a typical visit. In March 1943, in the spring of 1943,-I don't know the exact date -- I and Lolling went in a sleeper from Berlin to Kattowitz. We were met at the train by the Medical Officer of Auschwitz who appeared in his car, and we went to Auschwitz. We had something to eat and Lolling and the Medical Officer went away on their own, and the camp dentist and I inspected the various dental stations. We were riding a motor bike, and I think there were about four or five stations. This was in the morning. In the afternoon I and the dentist again went away in the car, and in the evening I saw mare stations. One was at a distance of about sixty kilometers from the camp. And later in the evening Lolling and I went back in our sleeper to Berlin.
Q.- Will you, very briefly, tell us how the stations were equipped and how the work was done in Auschwitz.
A.- The stations were well equipped. No objections could be made. They were clean; material was plentiful; the instruments and the equipment were adequate, and I saw no reason to raise any objections of any sort. Then I also ........
Q.- One moment, witness, -- another question concerning Auschwitz. When you drove through the camp did you notice anything about a large scale extermination action -- cremations? Gassings?
A.- I noticed nothing of the sort. I saw inmates, but I did not notice anything peculiar.
Q.- Or did you perhaps notice that inmates were being mistreated?
A.- No, I did not.
Q.- What was your impression of the health of the inmates?
A.- The camp dental officer told me that a typhus epidemic had broken out, which had now been drought under control. Generally speaking, the inmates I saw in the dental station made a perfectly normal impression.
Q.- I don't know whether the Court wishes me to ask further questions about further camps which he visited. I would like to ask you something now about your collaboration with other other members of Office Group D. When you were in Oranienburg, had you any close contact with the officers of Office Group D?
A.- In Oranienburg I lived in the garrison quarters, not, as the other leaders lived, in the so-called Inspectorate Building. I knew what these officers looked like, but I had no particularly close contact with them.
Q.- Who dealt with secret matters in Office D?
A.- Secret matters were handled by Lolling. Lolling had a safe and had the keys for the safe where he kept his secret diaries. Every secret matter which reached him had to be filed in a secret diary. I never saw those secret diaries. I never kept a secret diary, nor did I ever have a safe. All this Lolling did himself.
Q.- My final question, witness, is: Do you know the defendant Dr. Pook, and what is your opinion of him?
A.- I met defendant Pook in January of 1941, when I was transferred from Dachau to the Viking Division. He was at the Medical Office at the time. That was a casual contact. In 1943, I met him again in Oranienburg, when he took over that agency. He was transferred from Oranienburg to a new agency, but, as this new agency was not yet ready, I stayed for some time in Oranienburg and thereby gained more knowledge of Dr. Pook's character.
My opinion is that as a dentist, he is, professionaly speaking, very much up to date, because he had been in civilian practice for many years. Later on, when I re-visited Oranienburg from Russia -- some friends there -- I talked to the members of the dental station, and they all described to me how they liked Dr. Pook as a superior officer.
DR. RATZ: If the Tribunal please, before I decided to interrogate this witness, I asked him to give me an affidavit which has become part of my document book. In order to supplement the testimony given by the witness today, I should like to submit this affidavit as Exhibit No. 13, without making any further statement about the affidavit.
THE PRESIDENT: Does the affidavit add anything to his testimony?
DR. RATZ: It speaks about points which I have not asked him about now.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, I think his testimony ought to be given by word of mouth as long as he is here. Affidavits are for witnesses who can not be produced, so I think you had better complete your examination of the witness and not offer the affidavit.
DR. RATZ: Then I shall not offer the affidavit, because the other points are not important points. They concern side issues, and I do not think it very important to ask him about that.
THE PRESIDENT: Any cross examination by other Defense Counsel? Apparently not. The Prosecution may cross examine.
CROSS EXAMINATION BY DR. HIGGINS:Q.- Witness, are you now interned in the Nurnberg prison?
A.- Yes.
Q.- Do you know why you are now a prisoner in the custody of the U.S. Army, Nurnberg prison?
A.- Well, in order to be a witness for the defendant Dr. Pook.
Q.- You have not been taken into custody for any other reason? You are here simply to testify as a witness?
A.- Yes.
Q.- You are not in custody for having been a member of the Waffen SS?
A.- No. I was in the German civilian internee camp in Darmstadt, and from there I was brought here.
Q.- I would like to direct several questions to you concerning your duties while you were a camp dentist at Dachau. When were you a dentist at Dachau -- during what years?
A.- From May -- 15 May 1940 until January 1941.
Q.- You have stated on direct testimony that the inmates there were treated during the morning hours and the afternoon hours; is that true?
A.- Yes, that is what I said. I stated that in the morning they were treated for three hours and a half, one hour of which was reserved for SS men, and in the afternoon technical cases were treated for three hours.
Q.- Testimony produced at this trial shows that during those hours the inmates were not in the concentration camps; they were out working on outside jobs. Now, could you tell us whether or not they had the opportunity to be treated -
A.- May I interrupt here? I don't understand. It is too loud. I did not follow it. It was too loud, and I could not understand it.
Q.- My question is this: You have given us the hours during which inmates were permitted to be treated at your dental station in Dachau. We have had testimony here proving that the inmates during those hours were sent out to work in outside labor camps and in other camps which were situated beyond the limits of the concentration camps.
A.- What I have to say about this is that when I was in Dachau, only a very small part of the inmates went out to do work. Most of them were always inside the camp. There was only one medium size detachment which went out. They worked in the kitchen garden. The other inmates in the camp were not employed.
Q.- What do you say about the opportunity given to those inmates who were forced to leave the concentration camps during the day? Were they given the opportunity to have dental care in the event that they needed it?
A.- They certainly had the possibility. They had to report, and then they were treated. Certainly, the possibility existed.
Q.- They were not forced to work, despite the fact that they needed dental treatment?
A.- Inmates who needed dental treatment could go and see the dentist.
Q.- Now, on direct examination you told us quite emphatically that you never treated any injuries similar to broken jaws and injuries suffered through violence. Could you tell us who did treat such injuries as that?
A.- No such injuries occurred.
Q.- In your affidavit which was to be submitted here you have stated that there was a law obtaining in the Reich which required that prior to the removing of the gold teeth of the deceased inmates, it was necessary that a member of the family be present. Did that particular law pertain to concentration camp inmates also, or were they excluded from it?
A.- That law is known to me as an order. From conversations with other dentists, I deduced that this order or this decree existed, and I know that the removal in the case of civilians was carried out. In concentration camps no possibility existed to do this in the presence of relatives.
MR. HIGGINS: Do you wish to adjourn at this time?
THE PRESIDENT: I do. Recess until tomorrow morning at 9:30.
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal will recess until tomorrow morning at 0930 hours.
(Whereupon the Tribunal recessed at 1630 hours, 9 July 1947 until 0930 hours, 10 July 1947.)
Official Transcript of the American Military Tribunal in the matter of the United States of America against Oswald Pohl, et al, defendants, sitting at Nuernberg, Germany, on 10 July 1947, 0930-1630, Justice Toms presiding.
THE MARSHAL: Persons in the courtroom will please find their seats.
The Honorable, the Judges of Military Tribunal 2. Military Tribunal 2 is now in session. God save the United States of America and this Honorable Tribunal. There will be order in the court.
DR. PAUL REUTTER (Resumed) CROSS EXAMINATION (Continued)
THE PRESIDENT: The record will indicate that the defendants Volk and Bobermin are absent from this session of court by leave of Court and at the request of their counsel.
BY MR. HIGGINS:
Q. Witness, you realize that you are still testifying under oath in this Tribunal, do you not?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, referring to yesterday's direct examination, you told us that the inmates of concentration camps and SS members received the same dental treatment, that equal care was given to each. Could you tell me whether or not this applies to the time you served as camp dentist in Dachau as well as the time that you served in the WVHA as leading dentist?
A. Yes, it refers to both periods.
Q. You neither knew from your own knowledge nor heard of any discrimination whatsoever in the treatment of inmates in concentration camps?
A. I did not know from my own observations, nor did I ever hear of any discrimination in the treatment of concentration camp inmates
Q. You have told us, witness, on your direct examination that in your capacity as chief dentist of the WVHA you visited concentration camps on tours of inspection. These tours of inspections took place during the period of time you served as leading dentist in the WVHA, did they not?
A. Yes.
Q. Approximately how many times did you visit concentration camps on tours of inspection?
A. I am afraid I didn't understand the question. My earphones are too loud -- yes, I can hear now.
Q. My question, witness, was this: Approximately how many times did you visit concentration camps on tours of inspection?
A. I went there only infrequently, which was not my fault. I was not able to go to a concentration camp unless I was sent there.
Q. Witness, my question was: Can you tell me approximately how many times you visited concentration camps on tours of inspection? That is the question.
A. Well, I went once to Auschwitz, twice to Ravensbruck; I went to Dachau once, once to Neuengamme.
Q. And that is the extent of your trips? You cannot remember any other trips you made?
A. No.
Q. And on these visits to concentration camps did you see any single instance of ill-treatment of inmates?
A. On these inspection trips I only went to the dental stations for which purpose I had been given a pass.
Q. My question was: During these tours of inspection did you see any single instance of ill-treatment of inmates? And that can be--
A. No, I never saw anything of the sort.
Q. Were you aware of the fact that inmates were being exterminated in concentration camps?
A. I did not know that either.
Q That is sufficient, please. Witness, you stated that you found nothing whatsoever objectionable in the concentration camps. Now my question is this: Do you know of any concentration camp or labor camp in which inmates were malnourished, overworked, or poorly cared for? That question can be answered "yes" or "no".
A No, I did not know any such thing.
Q None whatsoever? That question can be answered "yes" or"no".
A No.
MR. HIGGINS: I have no further questions, your Honors.
THE PRESIDENT: No further questions on behalf of defense counsel? If not the Marshal may remove the witness.
(The witness was excused.)
DR. HOFFMAN: (Attorney for the Defendant Scheide) If the Tribunal please, I request that the Defendant Scheide be called to the witness stand and my defense will be based on my two document books and the witness Scheide. I hope that the Tribunal has the copies of my document books.
THE PRESIDENT: We have. The Marshal will bring the Defendant Scheide to the witness stand.
RUDOLF HERMANN KARL SCHEIDE, a witness, took the stand and testified as follows:
JUDGE MUSMANNO: Will you please raise your right hand and repeat after me:
I swear by God, the Almighty and Omniscient, that I will speak the pure truth and will withhold and add nothing.
(The witness repeated the oath.)
JUDGE MUSMANNO: You may be seated.
DIRECT EXAMINATION BY DR. HOFFMAN:
Q Witness, according to your affidavit, which is a part of Document Book I on page 64, both in the English and German texts, you joined the WVHA in the autumn of 1942 -- you were transferred.
My question is, where were you before? What was your position? Please give us a brief description of all that.
A May I perhaps take the liberty of being very brief about my military career and I shall come back to it later on. I was company leader of a company in the body guard of Adolf Hitler. Later on I became an engineer and before I joined the WVHA I was a Divisional Engineer of the First Tank Division.
Q Were you what might be called a transport expert? If so, please tell us that you understand by a transport expert.
A Here again I wish to be brief. It is a very extensive field and a lot of details will be involved. The tasks of a transport officer are first of all of an administrative nature, maintenance and care of all vehicles, repair work, spare parts, tires, fuel, liaison with the Main Operational Office, with the OKH, with the transport agencies of the Army and firms, to carry out all general orders of the Army and the transport of all reports, and giving answers before a tribunal, in case of accidents. He does not decide when vehicles will be used, because in very few cases he has the competence nor can he judge how much the various commanders can do themselves.
Q Witness, were you trained for this work? How did you acquire the expert knowledge?
AAfter joining the Leibstandarte, the body guard, I received the order to report to the police school for traffic and take part in a training coarse for experts and police officers, which lasted over a year. Here it was that I received my training and the Prussian Minister of Transport promoted me to an expert in transport matters.
Q Witness, who decided your transfer?
A My transfer to the WVHA came the Chief of the Main Operational Office, which was Obergruppenfuehrer Juettner. At the time he ordered it.
Q Witness, will you please briefly tell the Tribunal what the task of the Main Operational Office was, and perhaps you could compare it to a corresponding agency in the Army?
A The Main Operational Office, the Fuehrungshauptamt, might be compared to the OKH. All matters pertaining to troops used to be concentrated in the Main Operational Office. Also under the Main Operational Office all expert officers were subordinated, in my own case, because all transport officers who later on order by the Army called themselves Divisional and Regimental Engineers. The way to understand this is, as the WVHA had its administrative officers in all agencies of the Troops, so did the Main Operational Office send transport experts also to the troop agencies or agencies of the whole country. The orders came from the Army, via the Main Operational Office to reach the various individual officers. One must understand, therefore, that I did not act on orders by the WVHA, because these were administrative orders. I acted exclusively on Army orders which were adjusted to the Waffen SS. My superior agency was the Main Operational Office, therefore.
Q Witness, in the German Army, there were certain colors. I don't know whether or not the Waffen SS had a special color. Did you have any special color or badge which showed you were part of the transport system?
A Our badges were pink. Will you please submit Document 45, Doctor.
DR. HOFFMAN: If the Tribunal please, I have an additional document as the witness just said, but I do not know whether it has been translated yet. I shall submit it later on. From there it becomes clear that the badge of the rank of the defendant was pink.
Q Can you tell us what colors were used by the other members of your branch?
A If I remember, right, they were blue.
Q Witness, were you transferred by the Main Operational Office for technical reasons, or what were the reasons?
A Doctor, may I please briefly comment on this document?
Q No, please answer my question first.
A What happened was roughly this: I received the order from Gruppenfuehrer Juettner to report to the WVHA, because their transport conditions were somewhat confused. The same applied to the equipment and also for railroad transport, but I would like to talk about that later on. At this moment I would like to talk about motor transports only. The Main Operational Office had vehicles for years which they passed on to the WVHA. The WVHA grew and grew, and, therefore, the many agencies, roughly, 500 of them, whenever they requested fuel, tires, oil, spare parts, and all the thousands of things which are needed for transport conditions, applied for them directly from the agencies of the Main Operational Office. The Main Operational Office in its turn went and contacted each agency of the WVHA. The result was a colossal confusion and nobody knew where they were. In the transport world, it is very often the case that the man who has his driver's license is convinced that he is competent to do his job and, therefore, people were used who, although they were good drivers could not look after the vehicles very carefully. It was not possible to administer these things independently. We had to rely on the Army entirely, because the total supplies for the whole of the German Army, including all units of the Waffen SS, the Labor Service, the Todt organization, and so forth, were supplied by the Army alone. Therefore, it became necessary within the WVHA to create an agency which looked after the interests of the Army and particularly those of the Main Operational Office.
Q Witness, were you transferred to do exclusively your job with the WVHA, or were you given another assignment as well?
A I have to say this about that. As one of the most senior transport officers of the Special Task Unit, the Verfuegungstruppe, which later on became the Waffen SS I had gathered a large amount of experience and when the situation in the Easter Front became so difficult, to use a comparison here, in Kirowograd, after we had taken Cherson on the Black Sea, I received the order to look after the division from a point of view of transports and spare parts.
I went to the Army motor pool in Kirowograd and looked after transports and there I requested about 700 tons of spare parts. The answer given to me by the Army was, "We have 500 tons of mud guards. If you can use them, help yourself, but that is all we have got."
I was then given an order by my commanding officer to go back to Berlin, and there speed up things with the OKH. Therefore, I went to Colonel Grothe, who was the Chief of the Maintenance Branch of the Army in the OKW, and I talked to him about the conditions at the front. What he did was he opened his drawer of the desk, and threw about five-hundred requests upon the table. According to these requests the result was that the front needed about five-hundred thousand tons of spare parts, and Hitler had approved twenty-five thousand tons. The result was that they could not use new vehicles, especially, because of minor parts that were missing.
Q. Witness, don't go too deeply into this.
A. On the basis of this fact I was given the order to establish a vehicle department direct in Berlin for the First Army Division. Thereafter, I used all my peacetime contacts with certain firms, and I established a depot of spare parts of around three million marks, and we did not have to worry about the future any more. When I was transferred to the WVHA that depot existed, and was in full swing. I left for the WVHA, and my commanding officer made the condition that this task mainly was to furnish divisional troops with all spare parts, and with the necessary details that I would continue with that task. I kept that up until 1944--the middle of 1944, and the depot was then at the order of the Reichsfuehrer dissolved.
Q. Witness, then you left the Main Operational Office, and received the order to be transferred. Where did you report?
A. I reported to the Personnel Office of the WVHA, and there Standartenfuehrer Loerner who was there at the time introduced me to Obergruppenfuehrer Pohl. Pohl asked me what I had done before, and I told him what I had done in the past. Thereafter, he sent me to Standartenfuehrer Loerner.
We had a very brief conversation where I reported militarily.
Q. Pohl did not give you any special directive, or tell you what he had to do for you?
A. No, as I said before, it was purely a military formality, and he told me that Loerner would be my chief, and I was to report to him.
Q. You then went to Georg Loerner. What did Loerner tell you that you had to do?
A. I went to him, and I want to say this. The only man that knew about the vehicle situation in the WVHA, was Gruppenfuehrer Loerner. The reason for this was that transport matters of Office Groups A and B were concentrated in Office Group B. He, therefore, had all these worries, and he experienced them himself. For that reason he had earlier on established contact with Guttner, and expressed the wish that he would like to have a transfer office of his own, which I believe was the reason I was transferred there.
Q. Did Loerner give you any special directives, or what did he tell you?
A. Loerner said this to me at the time. After I had explained what I had done in the past, he told me I need hardly tell you any more, you know your business better than I do, and told me then to take up connections, or to call somebody in in order to get special contact with the Main Operational Office, and gave me an order for the transport situation.
Q. Do you want to mention this to have been the situation, that now you looked at that office to see what you had to do quite generally, so will you please tell the Tribunal what you found there?
THE PRESIDENT: May I interrupt you, Dr. Hoffman. When he speaks of the Main Operational Office, that is the Fuehrungshauptamt of the Main SS Office?
DR. HOFFMAN: If the Tribunal please, so far as I know there are a certain number of ten or twelve Main Offices of the SS. Amongst those Main Offices of the SS there was the WVHA, and the SS Main Operational Office had the same position as the OKH had in the Army.
THE PRESIDENT: I understand that. Now the Fuehrungshauptamt was divided into other offices, A, B, C and D, and other offices. Can the witness tell us the number of the office to which he was attached?
THE WITNESS: Your Honor, what happened was that Office X in the Main Operational Office was in charge of all transport offices.
THE PRESIDENT: That is Office X?
THE WITNESS: Yes. Then in addition to this there was I-A and the chief of the Main Operational Office who was Obergruppenfuehrer Juettner, issued the order to Office 10 and the transfer offices, which were distributed accordingly.
THE President: Yes.
BY DR. HOFFMAN:
Q. Witness, to repeat my question. When you said, after you reported to Loerner and looked at your office, what were the tasks that you found there?
A. When I left Loerner, I looked at the office. All I saw was the transport office-
Q. Witness, just a moment. Witness, please continue?
A. I found the Motor Pool Office, and I could do nothing with it, really. Anyway the Motor Pool of the WVHA was no good to me. Thereupon, I went to the Main Operational Office, and there the agency concerned explained their worries to me, which they had. I obtained an order to go and see Standartenfuehrer Ziersch. He was in charge of equipment for the armies in the Main Operational Office, and Obersturmbannfuehrer Curtius, who was in charge of rail transports, and Obersturmbannfuehrer Fink, who was the organizational officer; we all sat down together and drafted an order for the WVHA, which we submitted to Loerner, who passed it onto Pohl, and then that order reached all agencies of the WVHA.