A. As I have already stated, we treated SS men and also inmates. We treated approximately 30 patients perday. In the morning our office hours lasted for three and a half hours, and in the afternoon they lasted for three hours. Between 11 and 12 o'clock we would treat SS men, and during the other time we treated the inmates. In the afternoon mainly technical work was carried out, or in the afternoon we would deal with the cases that required some more time.
Q. What work did you carry out?
A. Our equipment and material were such that we could carry out all dental work which might come up. We could threat patients and we could treat badly infected teeth. We could carry out extractions of teeth. We could give treatment to the roots, and we could take x-ray pictures. We could treat wounds of the teeth, and we could replace teeth. We could replace rows of teeth, and we could fit these people out with teeth which could be removed, and also crowns.
Q. Witness, did you make any distinction in this work between your inmate patients and members of the SS?
A. I was a dentist because I liked my profession, and therefore it was natural for me not to make any distinction between SS men and inmates. I considered all of them as patients, and I gave my treatment only according to my professional point of view. I did not make any distinction between an SS man and an inmate.
Q. Were the drugs and the material used for your patients the same.
A. Yes, the material and the medicines which were used were the same. The same material was used for both SS men and inmates When we used anesthesia in the case of extractions, we used exactly the same drugs.
Q. Witness, during your activity as a dentist at Dachau did you also have to treat broken jaws or things of that kind?
A. When I was in the concentration camp at Dachau I did not have to treat any injuries or broken jaws. That is to say, I did not have to give treatment to persons who had their teeth knocked out or something of that sort.
Q. Whenever a patient had to have some teeth replaced, no matter if it was in inmate or a member of the SS, just what procedure was followed?
A. Whenever teeth have to be replaced, then we must make a difference between two things. Teeth for inmates could be replaced at the expense of the Reich, and inmates could have their teeth replaced at their own expense. When it was at the expense of the inmates they could immediately have their teeth replaced; at the expense of the Reich the following procedure was followed. First of all the inmates had to make a request to the camp leader and had to tell exactly what was to be replaced. This was ascertained by the dentist. Then this request was passed on to the Camp Medical Officer through official channels, and then this was passed on to Berlin for approval. Whenever the teeth were fixed at the expense of the inmate customary fees were charged. These are the minimum rates for patients who belonged to insurance agencies and then, of course, these funds were cashed in by the agency which administered the funds of the inmates.
Q. Witness, I now want to refer to the question of the removal of teeth or part of teeth of inmates which consisted of valuable metals. What can you say about that as a dentist?
A. I myself did not carry out such extractions, but inmates had been assigned for that purpose by the Camp Medical Officer. At that time I talked about the extraction of gold with the dentists, and I was told then that this was also done in cases of civilians who had died, and in these cases the gold had also been removed from their mouths.
The gold was removed by inmates who had been assigned to that work by the camp medical officer, and once the gold had been removed it was cleaned, and then it was put into a bag, together with the data of the person to whom it had belonged, and then every month this gold was collected, and then it was sent out by the camp medical officer. A monthly report was submitted to the Medical Office about the gold which had been removed.
THE PRESIDENT: A good place for a recess.
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal will recess for fifteen minutes.
(A recess was taken.)
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal is again in session.
DR. GAWLIK: (Counsel for defendants Bolk and Bobermin) May it please the Court, I would like the two defendants, Volk and Bobermin, to be excused from tomorrow's session in order to prepare their defense.
THE PRESIDENT: Defendants Volk and Bobermin may be excused rom tomorrow's session of court with the consent of the Court and at the request of their counsel.
BY DR. RATZ (Counsel for defendant Pook):
Q. Witness, you just told us about the removal of tooth gold from deceased inmates in the Dachau concentration camp. Did you as a camp dentist take any part in this, or did you supervise the removal?
A. I neither removed the gold myself nor did I supervise the removal. I was not present when It was done. The camp doctor had assigned inmates for the removal.
Q. You sent reports?
A. Yes; they were monthly reports. They were always concerned with small quantities: a few grams, or a few bridges.
Q. In other words, whenever somebody died, and after the gold was removed, the removal was reported to you?
A. What happened was when somebody died the Office would decide what inmates had to remove the gold and he saw to it whether there were any artificial teeth present. If there were, he would remove them.
BY THE PRESIDENT:
Q. How do you mean by "he ?" You said, "The office...." Whom do you refer to?
A. The inmate who was assigned to this.
Q. Who assigned the inmate?
A. The camp doctor.
Q. That is the medical officer -- not the dental officer?
A. No, the doctor of the camp.
BY DR. RATZ:
Q. To what agency did your report go?
A. The reports went to the medical office, Department 1-C, of the medical office.
Q. The office which was called, later on, fourteen?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you have to report to a superior agency about your dental work?
A. Each month a monthly report was sent off by request, and this gave the work done, and gave also a strength report of the personnel employed, hours of work which were observed; the work done was broken down according to the various kinds of treatment. For instance, so-and-so many fillings, so-and-so many fillings without previous treatment; extractions, and so forth. These reports went, as all correspondence from the dentist, to the camp doctor.
Before the war, when I was working in Dachau hospital, from where I could write direct to the medical office, I wrote direct to the medical office in my ignorance and I was reproached for doing this. All correspondence had to be sent through the camp medical officer-which not only went for me but concerned all dentists. They were always under the medical officers. There was a rule, an official directive, that the dental service of the Waffen-SS in war was subordinated unequivocally in professional matters to the next highest dentist, which, at that time when there were no leading dentists, was Department 1-C. And, as far as medical matters were concerned; the medical officer; and in military respects: the camp commandant concerned.
Q. If you required drugs and material for your treatments, what did you do?
A. Orders for drugs and material went the same way. They had to be sent in five copies through the camp medical officer, and the medical officer was the one who passed them back again.
Q. What did you do after you had done your work?
A. Before a treatment was completed the patient appeared in the station; we took down his personal data. He was treated, and the details of the treatment were written down on the file card. That file card also showed whether he had to come back or whether treatment had been completed.
Q. You told us before that when you gave medical dental treatment you made no difference between SS members and inmates. I would like to ask you in addition whether there was a directive according to which certain categories of inmates, such as Jews, had to be given different dental treatment, worse treatment.
A. No, no such directive existed. There was only one rule, that dentists had to treat inmates. From the equipment of the various dental stations it becomes clear quite definitely that as far as the medical office was concerned, the office which had created the dental station, it took an important view of the fact that good and careful treatment was given to the inmates. The drugs no longer available -- or at least in short supply -- in the usual practices were very largely available to those stations.
Q. Witness, do you know the name Anton Feissel?
A. Yes.
DR. RATZ: I would like to say here that a former inmate of the Dachau concentration camp has written to me. I hope that letter can be converted into an affidavit, but I have not yet completed that affidavit. I would, all the same, be most grateful if I would be allowed to show this letter to the witness because this witness is mentioned by name in the letter. Anton Feissel, from Bad Homburg, says as follows:
"As a former inmate of the Dachau concentration camp I came into contact with the members of the dental station.
They treated me because they produced a set of false teeth for me. Dr. Reutter, who is know to me, he is also born in Homburg, treated me, and he, as well as the other personnel in the station, treated me, as well as other inmates in no way which involved immorality or bodily harm. They showed a decent, conscientious, and kind and helpful attitude. I am prepared to give this statement in the form of witness testimony if the dental personnel should be charged with any maltreatment."
BY DR. RATZ:
Q. Would you please tell us something about the statement by this man?
A. One day when I left the dental station and I wanted to go home I saw in the camp an inmate who seemed known to me. I walked up to him and I knew him so well that no mistake was possible, and I asked him what his name was and where he came from. He told me that he was a fellow Bad Homburgian of mine. I knew him because he lived just around the corner from me. I asked him why he was in the camp. He told me that he had made a remark which he should not have made, but I could not get any more precise details from him.
I told him, "Well, well, well, why should you be sent to a concentration camp for a thing like that?" And I told him that he should come and see me in the dental station. He turned up one day and I treated him and gave him a set of false teeth -- which I would have given to anybody else as well, of course. I did not volunteer to do this service in the concentration camp. I was sent there, and I regarded it as my duty as a dentist to help as much as possible.
Q. Witness, therefore, you did not treat Feissel because he was also a native of Bad Homburg?
A Not at all. I gave the same treatment to all the other inmates.
Q I would like to ask you about the statements made by the witness about the attitude taken by dentists, that it was a fair, decent, conscientious and kind --even helpful one. Does that describe your principles as dentists towards your patients correctly?
A I believe so, certainly. I think that the Dental Service most certainly was expected to follow that attitude. I also talked to the inmates who worked in the dental stations and asked what I could do to make their lives as inmates easier for them I did.
Q Witness, you left Dachau at one point and as a head dentist you vrent to the WVHA as the predecessor of Dr. Pook. Under whom were you at that time?
A The dentists, as such as I said before, were all under three types of superior agencies, three superior officers, that is, as far as their professional activities were concerned, to Office D-III. They were under the then Main Department I-C in the Medical Office in the Office XIV, as it was called later, of Office Group D of the Main Operational Office. As far as the medical side was concerned, I was under the Chief of Office D-III, Lolling, and in military and disciplinary matters I was also under Lolling. Lolling's position was such that he was a commanding officer. Therefore he was my military superior.
Q Witness, what was you task as a head dentist? Were you a chief dentist?
A No. There was no such thing as a chief dentist in the SS. My task was professional supervision of the dental stations under the WVHA, the dental stations, in the commandt's office and also the dental stations of the inmates. It was an agency, so to say, which reached Office XIV. It was an intermediary between Office XIV and the dental stations in Office Group D. I was later on again a head dentist with the corps, the 4th Armored Corps. There again that position was merely meant as a concentration point for incoming reports to be passed on to the Medical Office and as a distribution center for orders which came from the Medical Office for the various dental stations.
This merely meant that work should be facilitated.
Q What was your special activity as a leading dentist in Office D-III?
A My task in that job was to concentrate and pass on the monthly reports, professional checks, on the stations, and to pass on the correspondence between the dental to the medical office and vice versa, from the medical office to the individual stations.
Q You made applications for dentures?
A Yes, I made such applications. They reached us. Those concerning inmates I worked on myself, whereas the applications for dentures for SS non went to the medical office.
Q Now, in Office D-III, that is to say, you as leading dentist, were there any reports which reached you form the dental stations about the removal of gold teeth?
A Yes, such reports reached us. They came in, some of them, from individual stations about extraction of dental gold, but many camps sent us a "failure" report to the effect that no dental gold had been extracted. The gold itself was not sent to D-III, but on the administrative channel it was sent to Berlin, but I don't know where. All I know is that when in October, 1942, I joined D-III, I asked questions in the medical office about these gold reports, because at the time I thought that the gold went to the medical office, but I was told that the gold would go through the administrative channel, from the dentists to the administrative offices. Only the reports about the gold would continue to be sent to Office XIV.
Q Were the quantities reported big or small?
A The reports were so small -- and in so many cases they were negative reports -- which, of course, I read -- that I was not struck by anything peculiar. The assumption did not seem obvious that mass extermination or mass executions had been carried out.
Q Would the leading dentists, that is, you, give orders about extraction of dental gold to camp dentists or, at least, about the supervision of this process?
A The leading dentists had no right to issue orders and therefore did not give any orders.
The dentists, that was the same probably in all agencies, were regarded by the medical doctors as the fifth wheel to a car. Any doctor would be highly indignant if a dentist would give him orders. Therefore, we were not in a position to give orders or instructions. That was the business of the professional agency, namely, Office XIV. They were in a position to do so but the leading dentist was not.
Q What about orders for material, drugs, and instruments?
A Reports about material, reports about instruments and drugs were again sent along on the official channel from the dentists through the camp doctors to Lolling in D-III and he had to sign the reports. After that they went from Lolling's agency on to Office XIV. There they were processed and passed on for delivery to Main Medical Depot of the Waffen SS.
Q As a leading dentist you also dealt with the applications for dentures for inmates. What were the principles you observed there?
A Permission to issue dentures for inmates was granted on the same principle as for the Waffen SS or for the civilian sectors. Every dentist, not only in the Waffen SS, but in free practice, there existed an order which was published in the professional journals that dentures could be manufactured only in certain cases and only to a certain extent. If those conditions were observed, the application was granted.
Q What type of dentures did you grant?
A Firm and removable dentures were manufactured in the shape of paladon, palapont, and silka. Palapont is artificial material, a highly modern type of material, which is also being used in the United States, and, also rubber, and in certain cases, steel was used, whenever it was possible. It was not always possible, of course, and it could only be granted in cases where it was possible.
Q As a leading dentist, you gave professional advice to the Office Chief of D-III. In what respect and how did you do it, in detail?
A What I did, generally, was that Lolling would not stand for being given too much advice. If he didn't understand something and he needed an expert, he would come and ask for advice, which happened, for instance, when equipment had to be repaired.
He had to call in an expert whether he wanted to or not, but otherwise, he did not bother and then bills from various detachments came in by people who could not be treated in the camp dental station. They were treated by civilian dentist and the bills reached Office D-III and we had to check up on the correctness of the figures, the prices, and give the order that they should be paid.
Q.- Witness, who decided on transfers of dentists? Was the leading dentist in a position to have any influence on this?
A.- Transfers of dentists from one field unit to Office D-3, for instance, was done at the order of Office 14 in Office Group D of the Main Operational Office - the Personnel Department there or the main department -- I don't know which one it was. What happened was that the transfer was done, every time, to D-3 from where the dentist concerned was transferred, or assigned somewhere else by Lolling himself. And again he did not stand for any interference. On the contrary, he very frequenly changed without asking me or even informing me. Then transfers from the camps to a field unit were again carried out by the Personnel Office in the Medical Office.
Q.- Who deputized for Lolling during his absence?
A.- Lolling was not absent very often. When he was absent, and I recall one instance in particular, he was represented by a camp medical officer, not being a dentist. Generally it was the Medical Office of Sachsenhausen Camp, but there were others too.
Q.- You frequently mentioned the Medical Office. What office are you talking about; which was competent for the dental service? What amounted to the former Medical Office?
A.- In order to make this quite clear, Office 14 in Office Group D of the Operational Main Office was the "Fuehrungshauptamt," the former Medical Office.
Q.- Now, how would you describe the competence of Office 14 as far as the SS dentists were concerned?
A.- This was the highest agency for all dentists in the SS.
Q.- Was your activity as leading dentist satisfactory to you?
A.- In October I went to Oranienburg, and I had nothing to do. When I was told in Office 14 that I was to go to Oranienburg, I had asked that I shouldn't be sent there because I wanted to be a dentist in a dental station. I was told that I should go there for a brief period of time, and I was consoled with the idea that I would soon be transferred.
I went there in October. My work consisted of reading novels. In the first days of the month reports would come in and once I had looked through those there was nothing to do so I was just hanging around, and I was most unhappy because I knew that the civilian population was living under extremely difficult conditions as far as the shortage of dentists was concerned. I frequently asked for my transfer from Oranienburg in order to be put in charge of a dental station again. That was done by the Medical Office. I was sent to the dental station of Munich Garrison where I worked for two months. That assignment lasted only for two months. In January, 1943 I had to go back, but not to Office D-3. I was tempted by the fact that I was sent to the dental station in Oranienburg where I could do my work as dentist, but again I was under Office Chief Lolling who was also the Garrison doctor of Sachsenhausen; so, therefore, I, for all practical intents and purposes -- I did the same work. This work was entirely unsatisfactory because it was a purely routine work. I simply passed on reports and collected and distributed reports. I had no independence, no responsibility.
THE PRESIDENT: Counsel, this witness is not a defendant, and I don't think that his complete life history interests us.
DR. RATZ: I regard this witness as important, Your Honor, because he was Dr. Pook's predecessor and, therefore, knows on what Pook was working. They were doing the same work and, therefore, I think that his testimony shows that the statements made by Pook were creditable. That is why I asked for the details of his work.
THE PRESIDENT: But whether he was busy or whether he liked his job doesn't seem to have anything to do with Pook?
DR. RATZ: The second reason why he was not satisfied with his work, I shall now discuss, which was connected with Pook. This is Lolling's character. I therefore would like to ask the witness about this second point.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, anything to get you to leave the first point.
BY DR. RATZ:
Q.- You were probably dissatisfied also because your superior officer was not a nice man. Will you tell us about Dr. Lolling's character please?
A.- When I went to Oranienburg I heard that Lolling was a morphium addict. He had just been given treatment to get rid of the habit and was not to come back. At least that is what I was told; and only at the insistence of Gluecks he went back there. He, therefore, in order to become indispensable, did not allow anybody to work independently at his side. He was extremely autocratic and did everything himself.
Q.- Did he allow you any insight into his work?
A.- No, he did not.
Q.- Did you know about medical matters from him -- experiments with inmates, for instance, or did you hear from him or his office about extermination action?
A.- No, this was not the case. When I worked in the Garrison dental station of Oranienburg I went in frequently to the building itself where Lolling's agency was housed. Lolling would not tell me about medical matters -- experiments and extermination actions.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: Counsel, if you have a third point don't you think you can leave the second point now? It's pretty well established that Lolling was a rather disagreeable character.
BY DR. RATZ:
Q.- The third point might be the question of the inspection trips witness Reutter made into the camps. I believe that point again is important because parallels can be drawn between his and Pook's activities. Witness, did you make inspection trips to camps?
A.- Yes, I made a few trips of inspection. I was getting a pass which authorized me to visit the dental stations of the camps, but that did not mean that I could go into any dental station. I tried to do that once.
At Sachsenhausen I did not get inside. Therefore, if I wanted to visit a station I had to be announced in advance. Every visit was previously announced by Lolling. In some cases I went alone, and in others with Lolling. And perhaps I could briefly describe a typical visit. In March 1943, in the spring of 1943,-I don't know the exact date -- I and Lolling went in a sleeper from Berlin to Kattowitz. We were met at the train by the Medical Officer of Auschwitz who appeared in his car, and we went to Auschwitz. We had something to eat and Lolling and the Medical Officer went away on their own, and the camp dentist and I inspected the various dental stations. We were riding a motor bike, and I think there were about four or five stations. This was in the morning. In the afternoon I and the dentist again went away in the car, and in the evening I saw mare stations. One was at a distance of about sixty kilometers from the camp. And later in the evening Lolling and I went back in our sleeper to Berlin.
Q.- Will you, very briefly, tell us how the stations were equipped and how the work was done in Auschwitz.
A.- The stations were well equipped. No objections could be made. They were clean; material was plentiful; the instruments and the equipment were adequate, and I saw no reason to raise any objections of any sort. Then I also ........
Q.- One moment, witness, -- another question concerning Auschwitz. When you drove through the camp did you notice anything about a large scale extermination action -- cremations? Gassings?
A.- I noticed nothing of the sort. I saw inmates, but I did not notice anything peculiar.
Q.- Or did you perhaps notice that inmates were being mistreated?
A.- No, I did not.
Q.- What was your impression of the health of the inmates?
A.- The camp dental officer told me that a typhus epidemic had broken out, which had now been drought under control. Generally speaking, the inmates I saw in the dental station made a perfectly normal impression.
Q.- I don't know whether the Court wishes me to ask further questions about further camps which he visited. I would like to ask you something now about your collaboration with other other members of Office Group D. When you were in Oranienburg, had you any close contact with the officers of Office Group D?
A.- In Oranienburg I lived in the garrison quarters, not, as the other leaders lived, in the so-called Inspectorate Building. I knew what these officers looked like, but I had no particularly close contact with them.
Q.- Who dealt with secret matters in Office D?
A.- Secret matters were handled by Lolling. Lolling had a safe and had the keys for the safe where he kept his secret diaries. Every secret matter which reached him had to be filed in a secret diary. I never saw those secret diaries. I never kept a secret diary, nor did I ever have a safe. All this Lolling did himself.
Q.- My final question, witness, is: Do you know the defendant Dr. Pook, and what is your opinion of him?
A.- I met defendant Pook in January of 1941, when I was transferred from Dachau to the Viking Division. He was at the Medical Office at the time. That was a casual contact. In 1943, I met him again in Oranienburg, when he took over that agency. He was transferred from Oranienburg to a new agency, but, as this new agency was not yet ready, I stayed for some time in Oranienburg and thereby gained more knowledge of Dr. Pook's character.
My opinion is that as a dentist, he is, professionaly speaking, very much up to date, because he had been in civilian practice for many years. Later on, when I re-visited Oranienburg from Russia -- some friends there -- I talked to the members of the dental station, and they all described to me how they liked Dr. Pook as a superior officer.
DR. RATZ: If the Tribunal please, before I decided to interrogate this witness, I asked him to give me an affidavit which has become part of my document book. In order to supplement the testimony given by the witness today, I should like to submit this affidavit as Exhibit No. 13, without making any further statement about the affidavit.
THE PRESIDENT: Does the affidavit add anything to his testimony?
DR. RATZ: It speaks about points which I have not asked him about now.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, I think his testimony ought to be given by word of mouth as long as he is here. Affidavits are for witnesses who can not be produced, so I think you had better complete your examination of the witness and not offer the affidavit.
DR. RATZ: Then I shall not offer the affidavit, because the other points are not important points. They concern side issues, and I do not think it very important to ask him about that.
THE PRESIDENT: Any cross examination by other Defense Counsel? Apparently not. The Prosecution may cross examine.
CROSS EXAMINATION BY DR. HIGGINS:Q.- Witness, are you now interned in the Nurnberg prison?
A.- Yes.
Q.- Do you know why you are now a prisoner in the custody of the U.S. Army, Nurnberg prison?
A.- Well, in order to be a witness for the defendant Dr. Pook.
Q.- You have not been taken into custody for any other reason? You are here simply to testify as a witness?
A.- Yes.
Q.- You are not in custody for having been a member of the Waffen SS?
A.- No. I was in the German civilian internee camp in Darmstadt, and from there I was brought here.
Q.- I would like to direct several questions to you concerning your duties while you were a camp dentist at Dachau. When were you a dentist at Dachau -- during what years?
A.- From May -- 15 May 1940 until January 1941.
Q.- You have stated on direct testimony that the inmates there were treated during the morning hours and the afternoon hours; is that true?
A.- Yes, that is what I said. I stated that in the morning they were treated for three hours and a half, one hour of which was reserved for SS men, and in the afternoon technical cases were treated for three hours.
Q.- Testimony produced at this trial shows that during those hours the inmates were not in the concentration camps; they were out working on outside jobs. Now, could you tell us whether or not they had the opportunity to be treated -
A.- May I interrupt here? I don't understand. It is too loud. I did not follow it. It was too loud, and I could not understand it.
Q.- My question is this: You have given us the hours during which inmates were permitted to be treated at your dental station in Dachau. We have had testimony here proving that the inmates during those hours were sent out to work in outside labor camps and in other camps which were situated beyond the limits of the concentration camps.
A.- What I have to say about this is that when I was in Dachau, only a very small part of the inmates went out to do work. Most of them were always inside the camp. There was only one medium size detachment which went out. They worked in the kitchen garden. The other inmates in the camp were not employed.
Q.- What do you say about the opportunity given to those inmates who were forced to leave the concentration camps during the day? Were they given the opportunity to have dental care in the event that they needed it?
A.- They certainly had the possibility. They had to report, and then they were treated. Certainly, the possibility existed.
Q.- They were not forced to work, despite the fact that they needed dental treatment?
A.- Inmates who needed dental treatment could go and see the dentist.
Q.- Now, on direct examination you told us quite emphatically that you never treated any injuries similar to broken jaws and injuries suffered through violence. Could you tell us who did treat such injuries as that?
A.- No such injuries occurred.
Q.- In your affidavit which was to be submitted here you have stated that there was a law obtaining in the Reich which required that prior to the removing of the gold teeth of the deceased inmates, it was necessary that a member of the family be present. Did that particular law pertain to concentration camp inmates also, or were they excluded from it?
A.- That law is known to me as an order. From conversations with other dentists, I deduced that this order or this decree existed, and I know that the removal in the case of civilians was carried out. In concentration camps no possibility existed to do this in the presence of relatives.
MR. HIGGINS: Do you wish to adjourn at this time?
THE PRESIDENT: I do. Recess until tomorrow morning at 9:30.
