Official Transcript of the American Military Tribunal in the matter of the United States of America, against Oswald Pohl, et al, defendants, sitting at Nurnberg, Germany, on 9 July 1947, 1345-1630, The Honorable Robert M. Toms, presiding.
THE MARSHAL: The Honorable, the Judges of Military Tribunal II.
Military Tribunal II is now in session. God save the United States of America and this honorable tribunal.
There will be order in the Court.
HERMANN POOK - Resumed CROSS- EXAMINATION (Continued) BY MR. HIGGINS:
Q. Witness, at this time I would like to hear from you concerning the reports received by you from the concentration camp dentists concerning the extraction of gold from the deceased inmates. Could you please tell me just what these reports contained, that is, what information was contained in these reports?
A. These reports were not very long, but they were only brief reports, and these reports included the number of grams, that is, to say the amounts of gold which had been turned in in grams.
Q. Then on the basis of these reports, if they solely contained a list of the amounts received, you cannot state then that you did not receive gold extracted from the teeth of exterminated inmates, that is correct, isn't it?
A. No. These reports only stated that in the month of June, so-and-so, let's say twenty, grams of gold have been turned over to the administrative official. Nothing further.
Q. You have stated previously that the reports received by you on the gold extracted from the teeth of inmates was not gold which had been taken from those inmates who had been probably put to death, and I just wanted to clear up that point.
That is, from the reports you could not tell that. I would now like to pass on to another question. I would like to ask you whether or not you received these reports from all concentration camps which were under the supervision of the WVHA?
A. I cannot say any more today just where these very brief reports came from. However, they came from all the camps which were subordinated to the WVHA. I have never received such reports from the concentration camps in the Baltic countries, nor did I receive any reports from the camps in the Lublin area. No reports of that kind arrived from that area.
BY THE PRESIDENT:
Q. What about the camps in Holland and France and Belgium?
A. Your Honor, as far as I know we only had this one camp at Herzogenbusch in Holland. I don't know anything about France. I don't know that any existed there. But, as far as I can recall no reports were received from Herzogenbusch either. In any case I don't know of any.
Q. Just a second until I get a picture of the camps. There was a camp called Herzogenbusch in Holland, was there not?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you get reports from that?
A. We received the usual reports from the dental station. We received reports about the personnal working in the dental station and requests for material. However, as I have just stated, I cannot say whether we received any reports about the gold which had been removed from the teeth of the inmates.
In any case I don't think so.
Q. Was Natzweiler in France?
A. I myself have never been in Natzweiler. I believe it was located in Alsace.
Q. Yes. Well, not to raise an old discussion, but was Alsace a part of France?
A. I don't think so. I believe at that time it was part of Germany. It changed quite frequently.
Q. And you didn't receive reports from the camps in the far east like Maidanek?
A. No. The name of Maidanek in particular was completely unknown to me, and I don't even know that a camp existed there. No dentist was assigned to that camp who belonged to our organization, at least I did not have any knowledge of it.
Q. Did you have a dentist at Treblinka?
A. They didn't have one there either.
BY MR. HIGGINS:
Q. Witness, concerning these reports which were directed to be made by Gluecks by the concentration camps and then forwarded to Amt D-III of the WVHA, I notice in Document NO-1923 that Herzogenbusch was one of those listed. We have previously discussed this document and you had commented on it. Does that refresh your recollection?
A Mr. Prosecutor, may I take a look at the document first, please? I believe that I have it right here with me.
Q It is in Book 22, Exhibit 552.
ANO-1923?
Q That's right, that document indicates, does it not, that reports were directed to be made to the Chief of Office D-3 from Herzogehbusch -- this document is dated 13 January, 1944 -- as well as Lublin and Warsaw. It is stated clearly on the listed concentration camps.
A Yes. I stated that I could not remember having received any reports about removal of gold from Herzogehbusch. I didn't say that we did not receive any reports. At the moment I really cannot remember it. At the moment I cannot say just from which camps which did receive these reports.
Q Did you know, witness, that prior to the extraction of gold from the mouths of deceased SS members, that the permission of the next of kin was required to be had?
A I didn't know that. After all, I didn't have anything to do with these things, and I don't know what regulations prevailed, and I don't know whether any prior permission had to be obtained. I have already stated I did not even see the fundamental order by Himmler from 1940 which, after all, was issued at a time when I was not even a member of the Waffen-SS; and even later on I never say this order. I only knew that such an order existed.
Q The reason that I asked you was that your predecessor in office, Reiter, was familiar with such things, and I thought perhaps that you also might have been familiar with these things.
Now, perhaps, you can tell me this: after the gold was removed from the mouths of the deceased prisoners, wasn't it a fact that it was cleaned in the dental stations in the concentration camps? You do know that, do you not?
A I have learned from affidavits of camp dentists that the gold which had been extracted by inmates who worked in the dispensary there, that this gold was then passed on to the dental stations and there it was cleaned and washed. And from there it was passed on to the administrative officer.
Q But you do not know of this of your personal knowledge, from having visited these dental stations on inspection trips?
A No; first of all I never worked in any camp as a dentist, and I have never been part of the camp personnel, and during my short inspection tours I was unable to observe such things. I didn't see anything at all about that.
Q You would say, having this knowledge now, having known now that the dentists supervised the extraction of the gold and having known that they cleaned and weighed it -- you would state that they were in a very favorable position to compile these reports which were sent to you? That is true, is it not? In other words, they occupied a position which qualified them to make out the reports on extractions of gold.
A Well, Mr. Prosecutor, I do not know what to tell you now. After all, the gold consisted of individual teeth and bridges and that was turned in. The records did not show just what the amounts consisted of, but only the quantity was listed in these reports, in grams. It was not stated whether these were fillings or false teeth or things of that kind. I was unable to see that from the reports.
Q The point was, however, that the dentists were well-qualified to submit these reports to you -- and that, I believe, can be answered either Yes or No. Can you state Yes or No to that question?
A Mr. Prosecutor, these weren't reports; they were just very brief reports which went through the official channels to the camp medical officer, because the dentist could not submit then independently. He had to submit this report to the camp medical officer. And from there the reports went to Lolling. I saw the reports and then they were passed on to the medical office Office 14.
Q All right. We Will proceed to another question now. On Direct Examination, witness, you testified that where the removal of gold from the teeth of deceased inmates is done in such a manner as not to imply theft or robbery, it is not a sacrilege. I believe they were pretty nearly your exact words as you gave them on direct testimony. Now, was there any question in your mind that this confiscation of gold teeth was not actually a theft on the part of those who participated in it? And I would like as brief an answer as you possibly can give.
A Naturally, Mr. Prosecutor, I think that the whole matter of removing the gold was incorrect, and I don't consider it to be a nice matter. However, that was an order which had been issued by the highest authority; that was Himmler. And, after all, the dentist did not have anything to do with that, just as little as the person who worked in the office D-3. This extraction of gold was carried out earlier by order of the camp medical officer, and this work was carried out by inmates who worked at the dispensary. I have been able to see that from the affidavits and documents here. I must assume, of course, that irregularities occurred; that is, that inmates did not turn over the gold, and that they kept some of it for themselves. For this reason, apparently, from 1941 or 1942 on, by order of Lolling, the camp dentist had to supervise the whole matter in order to prevent such irregularities.
Q But, nevertheless, despite the fact that the order for the removal of teeth was issued by Himmler, you think that it makes it right -- or do you think it was still wrong to do this? Do you admit that this was theft, that it was wrong despite the fact that the order was issued by Himmler?
A I am quite convinced that if such a thing was carried out, that at least the family members of the deceased inmates should have received this gold.
As I have already stated in my direct examination, in most cases no members of the families existed any longer so that from this perhaps we could have a certain right to this gold. However, as a dentist, I am not informed about the legal aspect of this case, and I cannot make any statement about it.
Q You speak about the relatives of the deceased inmates and the fact that they were not available to receive the gold. Do you know of any single instance in which a relative of the deceased inmates was given the opportunity to enter the concentration camp and to claim that which belonged to the inmate?
A I am not at all informed about these matters because I had nothing to do with them. I never heard anything about it. I didn't hear anything with regard to such extracted gold, nor did I hear anything about the belongings of inmates in general. After an inmate had died I don't know whether the heirs of that person would receive his belongings, or not.
Q Witness, can you tell me what happened to the gold following the receipt of it by the dental station? Do you know to whom it was delivered thereafter?
A Today I know the channel through which this gold was passed on. At the time I did not know. I didn't even know at the time when I arrived in the prison. I only knew that the gold was turned over to the administrative officer -- after all, this whole gold matter was the task of the administration, and the dentist was only connected with it in order to prevent irregularities; secondly, in order to have the gold cleaned. However, he did not have to carry out the extraction, nor did he have anything to do with the utilization of the gold later on. I know today that the gold was passed on by the administrative officer of the camp through Office D-4 in Office Group D, to Mellmer in the WVHA: and from there the gold was again passed on to the Reichsbank. Burger had a dual knowledge of this since, originally, he was the administrative officer of a camp and later on he was a chief of Office in D-4. He has also stated quite clearly that the gold from the extermination actions was routed through special channels and it was treated in a special manner.
Q Isn't it the fact that dental gold was delivered to Amt D-3 while you were a dentist there?
A From the individual concentration camps, as long as I was there, no gold was sent to us. The only shipments of gold -- and we can't even call them shipments of gold -- the only gold which passed through D-3 was the gold which had been requested from Office 14 in order to use it for fillings. This gold was furnished by Office 14. It was sent through Office D-3 and passed on to the dental stations.
Q I believe, witness, that you remember an instance in which gold was received -- that is, dental gold was received -- from a concentration camp by you in D-3, and I am referring to Document NO-1000, which indicates clearly that gold was received by D-3.
A. Mr. Prosecutor, during my interrogation in December, 1946, I have already expressed my opinion with regard to this document to Mr. Wolf, and I did that in writing. I believe that this letter is still available. In this case, also, no gold was sent to D-III. The gold was sent to Lolling and it immediately returned the same way in which it had come, because neither D-III nor I, as dentist, was authorized to accept this.
Q. Witness -
THE PRESIDENT: How can we find that document, NO-1000?
MR. HIGGINS: Your Honor, I have it here and I am going to distribute it immediately. I interrupted the witness, so that --
THE PRESIDENT: It has not been offered yet?
MR. HIGGINS: No, it has not been offered, Your Honors, I would like to give Exhibit No. 575 to this document for reference. I would like to read this document. It is rather brief, containing but one paragraph. It is dated 11 July 1944 and issues from the concentration camp Hinzert. "Subject: Gold for tooth fillings."
THE PRESIDENT: Which concentration camp?
MR. HIGGINS: H-i-n-z-e-r-t, Your Honor, Hinzert. It is indicated on our chart containing concentration camps. However, I do not know whether you are in possession of the chart at this time.
THE PRESIDENT: It is the first time we have heard it mentioned.
Q. (Reading) "Since 1 January 1943 84 grammes of tooth gold have become available here in all, of which 20 grammes were sent to Office Group D, the Head Dentist, on 1 September 1943. The remaining 64 grammes which our courier should have delivered on 29 April 1944, were returned by the Head Dentist of Office Group D, because of the small quantity. This gold is still here." Signed Sporrenberg. Now, it is a fact, is it, Witness, that you received this gold and then later returned it, because the quantity was insufficient. That is the question I would like answered, whether or not you returned it because
A. Mr. Prosecutor, I will have to make a detailed statement about this subject. This document states basically that within a long interval of time only 84 grammes of gold had accumulated. That is a fact which confirms my testimony that the gold from the teeth of deceased inmates didn't amount to very much. The amount of 20 grammes on the 1st of September, 1943? which was turned in according to this document -- was turned in at a time when I was not yet in the WVHA, when I was not yet a dentist in D-III.
Q. Excuse me. However, the 64 grammes referred to were turned into you and you remember it being turned in to you? Is that not right?
A. No, that is not correct.
Q. Well, I would like then to refer to your affidavit which is Document NO-1297. It is Exhibit 14, contained in Book I, at page 71 of the English. "It is true" --- and I am quoting from the affidavit --- "It is true that I talked with Lolling about this and received the order from him to send the gold back. I did this by the request of Burger of D-IV, either orally or by way of a communication," and that statement refers directly to Document NO-1000, which was shown to you at that time. Now I repeat the question --
A. Yes.
Q. Isn't it true that you remember this incident; that you remember receiving this telegram?
A. I did not receive this telegram. This telegram was not addressed to Office D-III. It was not addressed to the Dentist in D-III either, but it was addressed to Office Group D proper. At the time I did not receive any knowledge of that telegram, but I saw it here for the first time during my interrogation last December. May I say something about the 64 grammes of gold. A courier from the camp of Hinzert brought this gold. Since neither Office D-III nor I personally were competent to receive such gold, I asked Lolling what I should do with that gold. Lolling was of the opinion that, if anybody within Amtsgruppe D. was authorized to accept this gold, then this could only be the administration.
He ordered me to go to Burger in order to discuss the matter with him. Burger told me on that occasion that the administrative officer of all camps -- and this was also the administrative officer of the camp of Hinzert --was exactly informed about the channel for turning in gold. He was surprised that this channel had not been used. He himself told me that this amount was too small so that he himself could not accept it. After, from the camps, he did not only receive dental gold, but he received the dental gold, together with other valuables. For this reason, he refused to accept the 64 grammes of gold. He also requested me on his own initiative to give the gold back to the courier so that the administrative officer would submit this gold, together with some other shipments, to him. I personally, as well as the Office D-III, were not able to accept such gold. We did not have any authority to deal with it at all. This was not done either. Neither Lolling nor I accepted the gold.
Q Can you tell me, Witness, what happened to the 20 grammes of gold referred to in the first part of the telegram. In other words, 64 grammes were returned and it would appear that 20 grammes were retained. Can you tell me about that?
A. Unfortunately, I can't tell you anything about it, because I was not with that agency at that time. I have already stated in the course of my interrogation that apparently, according to what I can get from this document, these 20 grammes of gold must have been accepted by my predecessor. However, I don't know anything about that. I cannot see why he should have accepted this, because he was not authorized to accept it either. Actually, he was not authorized to accept that gold. My testimony at that time that he accepted it was only based on my knowledge of this document. I myself only was sent to Office D-III on the 3d of September and I began my duties in the middle of September.
Therefore, I cannot possibly know anything about what happened on the 1st of September.
Q. Witness, I want to ask another question or two before completing this cross-examination, and it's a matter which involves the dental stations in concentration camps, as well as the dental stations in the outside labor camps and I am referring to the so-called "Tooth Action." However, before questioning you on this matter, I would like to read two brief excerpts on the subject, which are contained in the Document Books, and which have therefore already been introduced. In order to refresh your recollection on this and to indicate just what I am talking about, I would like to read you briefly from these documents. The first document from which I wish to read is Document NO-2637, and it's Exhibit 293, contained in Book 10 at page 135 of the English Document Book and page 60 of the German Document Book, and it's an extract of the testimony of Walter Neff, given in the case of the United States versus Karl Brandt, et al, " And then there was " -- and I quote --- "And then there was another action. That was the so-called 'Tooth Action' All prisoners had to go to the hospital for examination and treatment of their teeth. In reality it was determined whether the prisoner had gold in his mouth or not. If he had gold in his mouth, he was registered carefully and after he died he had to pay the gold from his mouth for the last tribute for the fight against National Socialism."
I should like also to read on this same matter an excerpt from Document NO-2332, which is Exhibit 519, in Book 21, at page 28 of the English Document Book and page 13 of the German Document Book, and I quote, "I remember a written order of the Amt. D-III, which, in my opinion, must have been issued in 1943, saying that anyone suffering from a disease was to receive a mark on the upper arms after examination and after removal -- the eventual removal --- of any gold teeth , which read as follows: 'Examined by the Dental Surgeon.'" Now, Witness, I would like to know when you first heard of this action which has been referred to as the "Tooth Action."
It was carried out in the dental stations. The order was issued in 1943 by Lolling. When did you first hear of it?
A In connection with what you have told me, I have heard this word "tooth action" for the first time right now.
Q Had you heard of any action which corresponds with this which might have been called with some other name?
A No. I heard that it was a proscribed procedure in some camps. Apparently, this was a camp order by the camp physician, that a deceased inmate from whom the gold had been removed was stamped on his upper arm "received or examined by the dentist". However, I don't know when this order was issued or who issued it. I must assume, since this was not done in all camps, that the camp physicians in charge in some camps ordered that on his own initiative. I never heard anything about such a tooth action as just described by you.
Q Why do you say that you assume it wasn't the case in any camp? It was issued by Lolling and would seem that all camps would receive the order; that is, all dentists located in the concentration camps would receive the order. I see no reason why it should be distributed to one or two camps and not all of the camps.
A I don't know anything about that. I can only say that if the order had been issued by Lolling then it would have been addressed to all the camps but then he would have addressed it to all camp physicians and not to the dentists. Furthermore, at this time the extraction of gold was a task of the camp physicians and it was not the task of the dentist. The dentist did not have anything to do with the extraction of gold at all. They only had to supervise that from 1942 on. If this order was issued by Looing then it must have been addressed to the camp medical officers and that must have happened at the time when I was not yet assigned to office D-III and I could not have had any knowledge at that time, nor did I gain any knowledge later on.
Q You state that the order issued in 1942 -- that is that order which directed dentists to supervise the extraction of tooth, gold teeth, from deceased inmates, and it is very reasonable to state that the tooth action was also carried out by the dentist by that time in conjunction with the necessary supervision of the extractions; and, that being the case, you would have known of it, would you not, form your various reports and from your inspections of the dental stations in the concentration camps?
A May I state once more quite clearly that the basic order for the removal of dental gold was issued by Himmler on 23rd of September 1940. It was not issued in 1943. All other orders which deal with the removal of dental gold, and the orders prescribing the procedure to be followed were either issued by Lolling or by office D-I. However, they were never issued by any dental agency. All this was done at the time when there was no leading dentists or Head Dentists in the office D-III. From 1942 on the dentists were used to supervise this extraction of dental gold and that was done by order of Lolling. That is all I can say about the subject.
Q Witness, I don't know how you can come to the conclusion that simply because an order directing a certain course of conduct is issued prior to your arriving on the scene, that therefore you wouldn't have knowledge of it. If an order is issued in 1940 to a specific station you don't have to be there in 1940 in order to have knowledge of the order. If you arrive in 1942 and are performing work which is in connection with the subject matter of the order, you will necessarily have knowledge of it; but let us go on to something else. I think we are wasting time on this matter.
A May I say something else on that matter? I am of the opinion that, even if in the year 1940 I had already been in that agency, even then I would not have obtained any knowledge from this order of Himmler because this order was addressed to the dentists since this action was not concerned with the dental service.
But this order was passed through Gluecks and it was passed on to the camp commanders and it was passed on from Lolling to the camp medical officers. However, the dentists never dealt with this matter and, therefore, I would not have gained any knowledge of that order.
Q Isn't it a fact, witness, that it was quite a dangerous matter for one enterned in a concentration camp to have a great deal of gold in in his mouth?
A I don't think so. I am certain that there were many inmates who had a lot of gold in their mouth. I am quite sure that nobody took any stops against these people just because they had a lot of gold in their mouth. The order, which I do not know personally, must have read to the effect that the gold was to be extracted from deceased persons, not from living persons.
Q You did not know of any instance in which the fact that a person had a great deal of gold in his mouth -- you do not know of any reason -excuse me -- or any instances in which that hastened the time of his death? You do not know that?
A I never heard anything about that. I consider something like that completely out of question.
DR. HIGGINS: I have no further questions.
THE PRESIDENT: Any questions by defense counsel?
DR. RATZ: Your Honor, I only want to ask two questions.
REDIRECT EXAMINATION BY DR. RATZ:
Q Witness, yesterday Document 1998 was shown to you. It concerns your career. In this document, under paragraph 12, is the statement: "Medical Squadron SD Main Office." Now, the suspicion has been mentioned that you were connected with the SD, the Security Service of the RSHA. Please explain this point to us quite briefly because I believe that this matter has not been completely clarified.
A I can say very little about that because I do not know the organzation of the RSHA, the SD and the Gestapo. I have never been in my connection with the RSHA or with the SD, the Security Service. The RSHA was established much later. However, as far as I can recall, there never was an SD Main Office. I never heard of that firm at all. In my opinion, it can only be that the SD stands for Sanitaetsdienst -- that means medical service -- and this does not belong to that particular branch at all. It belongs to a different branch. I can't explain this whole thing. Before the soldiers and the non-commissioned personnel in the medical service were usually called Sanitaetsdienstgrade -- ranks in the medical service and, of course, the abbreviation is "SD."
"Sanitaetsdienst" stands for medical service. This has nothing to do with the SD, the Security Service. There must have been some confusion here.
Q There is a second question I want to ask you. In your direct examination you stated that from the reports about the dental gold which was removed from deceased persons you could not gain that these inmates had been exterminated and killed. In the cross examination it was stated that these reports only contained the quantities of gold and that, therefore, you could not see whether the gold came from inmates who had died a normal death or inmates who had been killed. Could you now tell us why you couldn't get the idea that the gold might have originated from inmates who had been killed?
A I know today that or termination measures were carried out in a large scale. It must be assumed that here much more gold was extracted than was done in the case of inmates who had died of a natural death and that was that the reports contained. It is also shown by Document NO 1000which has just been presented that in the camp Hinzert also, within the time limit of more than one year, 84 grams of gold had accumulated. That is only a very small amount if you figure it out by the month, and matters were similarly done in all the other camps. Therefore, from these reports, I could not assume that any such extermination measures and actions were carried out.
Q My last question now is this: this document 1000 which has just been shown to you and this document has also been mentioned in the affidavit by Burger which I presented -- on page 26 of that affidavit of my document book I would like to shown you this particular quotation and I would like to ask you if you want to make any statement about that. Burger states here:
"I cannot say why, from the Camp Hinzert, a pachage of dental gold was one one occasion sent direct to me to me to office D-III. As mentioned above, the dental gold had to be handed over, together with the valuables, to the concentration camp administration which delivered them to office IV."
Is that statement correct or what do you have to say with regard to this statement by Burger?
AAs I know today, this is correct. It should have been turned in through office D-IV and passed on to Berlin. At that time, in 1944, I could only assume that this was the channel through which the gold was passed on. However, at that time I did not have any precise knowledge about it.
DR. RATZ: Your Honors, I have no further questions.
THE PRESIDENT: No questions by other Defense Counsel? Do you have your next witness ready in behalf of this defendant?
DR. RATZ: Yes.
THE PRESIDENT: The Marshall will return this witness to the dock and bring in the witness Dr. Paul Reutter.
(Witness excused)
DR. PAUL REUTTER, a witness, took the stand and testified as follows:
THE PRESIDENT: Witness, raise your right hand, please, and repeat after me: I swear by God, the Almighty and Omniscient, that I will speak the pure truth and will withhold and add nothing.
(The witness repeated the oath).
THE PRESIDENT: You may be seated.
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY DR. RATZ:
Q. Witness, your name is Dr. Paul Reutter? When and where were you born?
A. I was born on 14 October 1911 at Bad Homburg, vor der Hoche.
Q. Since when are you a member of the NSDAP and the SS?
A. I joined the NSDAP in 1933, and I joined the SS in the same year.
Q. Were you the camp dentist at Dachau?
A. Yes. In 1938 I worked at the hospital at Dachau as a civilian employee, and then in 1939 when the war broke out I was conscripted. I received my military basic training, and afterwards I was transferred to the concentration camp Dachau as a dentist. At that time there was no difference as yet between the headquarters dental station and the inmates' dental station. The inmates as well as the SS men were treated in the same dental station.
Q. Before you tell us about your activity as the camp dentist, please tell us your career in detail.
A. In January 1941 I was transferred from the concentration camp, and then I became leading dentist for the Division Viking, which was established at that time. I treated patients at that time at a dental station, and at the same time I had the supervision over 22 dentists who were assigned to that particular division.
Q. Where did you go from there?
A. In October 1942, by order of the Medical Office, I was transferred to the wvha. At the time the position of leading dentist was established in the WVHA, and I was assigned to that position.
I was succeeded by Dr. Pook.
Q. Witness, please tell us some more details about your activity at Dachau. Where was your dental station located?
A. The dental station at Dachau was located withing the camp and was amongst the hospital buildings there. The dental station was very well equipped, and it occupied a lot of space, compared with the dental station before. It was better equipped than any station, or its equipment was at least as good. We had two dental offices there, equipped with the most modern equipment. Then we had x-ray apparatus there, and we had a technical laboratory which was newly established.
Q. Who worked in this dental station?
A. In addition to myself as the dentist, I had a clerk, an assistant. This person was an inmate. In the technical laboratory there were two inmates working. One of then was a dentist who had passed his state examination, and one of then was a dental technician.
Q. Whom did your patients consist of?