Court No. II, Case No. 4.
CROSS EXAMINATION BY MR. HIGGINS:
Q Witness, I would first like to direct your attention to statements recently made by you while you were under direct examination. I believe I understood you to say in response to your counsel's question that no documents were submitted by the prosecution that showed that there was such a thing as a dental station, section, or office in the WVHA, was that your contention?
A Yes.
Q Then document NO-111, with which I would think you are familiar, there is set out Office D-III of the WVHA; D-III/1 and D-III/2 are offices which are stated to be offices for the medical and dental care of the SS and offices for the medical and dental care of the inmates. Now, wouldn't you think that would satisfy you so far as the contention is concerned that no such offices existed? In other words, wouldn't you say that these were dental offices as such as D-III?
A Mr. Prosecutor, may I ask you to save a copy of that document. I don't have the document book.
THE PRESIDENT: I have one here, Mr. Robbins. Is it a chart?
MR. ROBBINS: It is a chart, Your Honor, but it isn't in German.
MR. HIGGINS: While we are waiting, I might proceed with another question to the witness.
BY MR. HIGGINS:
Q Returning to statements made by you on direct examination, you stated that never, before your attendance at this Court, heard the name of Globocnik, is that correct, is that what you said?
A Yes, that is correct.
Q You are certain of that?
A I cannot recall ever having heard the name at any other occasion before that.
Q I would like to read from an interrogation conducted by Mr. Ortman on 13 November 1946, in which you stated that you had heard of Court No. II, Case No. 4.the name of Globocnik.
After I have read, will you please tell me then whether or not you insist that you have never heard of his name before? The interrogator asked: "Do you know Obergruppenfuehrer Globocnik?" And the reply is: "No. Question: 'Did you hear that name today for the first time in your life?" And you state: "The name I have already heard before."
Now, when did you hear that name before? This interrogation was conducted prior to the arraignment, and prior to the sessions being held here. Now, I would like to know the occasion in which you heard that name and in reference to what?
A I really cannot recall it, and I don't know what caused me to make the statement at that time. I cannot ever recall having heard that name at an earlier time. I also cannot recall having made this statement before this particular interrogator.
Q Then, you state that this statement as made here is incorrect, is that right? You had never before heard the name of Globocnik?
A I claim that, but I do not recall having heard the name before. It was completely unknown to me. I never worked at all in the East, and only toward the end of 1943 did I enter the WVHA. I know today that at that period of time Globocnik was not there anymore.
Q Well, it is very possible, despite what you say, that you had heard of the name of Globocnik. Globocnik was an extremely important man. He was Obergruppenfuehrer in the Waffen-SS, and it is quite possible that you have heard the name?
A I cannot recall ever having heard of that name. I do not know in what connection I could have heard it. I have already described this in detail where I was assigned during my membership in the WaffenSS. None of the agencies where I was working had any contact whatsoever with Globocnik.
Q I should like to turn to another question, then, referring to your statements on direct examination. You stated that you were drafted into the Waffen-SS after having served in the Allgemeine-SS and Court No. II, Case No. 4.Reiter-Standarte?
A No, I did not serve in the Reiter-SS. The Reiter-SS was not a military organization in the sense that there I could have spent some time of service. This was an organization rather like the General-SS.
Q One moment, I'd like to go into that at a later time. The question I would like to ask you now is concerning your being drafted into the Waffen-SS. You stated that you had been drafted into the Waffen-SS, did you not?
A Yes, I know exactly that by virtue of a notification of the Army Corps Area which was competent for me; on the 26th of September, I was called up, and I was told to report on the first of October to the medical officer of the Waffen-SS on Glesebeckstrasse in Berlin. I had to report on the first of October.
Q And you stated that while a member of the Waffen-SS you knew of the policy of anti-Semitism that was carried out, didn't you?
A I didn't quite understand your question.
Q While you were a member of the Waffen-SS, you stated that you were aware of the policy which was carried out against the Jews, insofar as they were denied participation in professional fields and in the business life of Germany above their percentage of representation in the community?
A No, Mr. Prosecutor, I didn't say that. I said to the contrary, for members of the Waffen-SS, just for all members of military forces, my political activity was prohibited. This was also expressed by the fact that a member of the Wehrmacht, and thus also a member of the Waffen-SS, could not possibly vote.
Q Just a moment, witness, I would like not to go into that. I would just like you to answer the question as I put it. When you were a member of the Waffen-SS, you knew of this policy against the Jews which I previously have described, did you not? I don't wish to know whether or not you participated in it or what were the regulations against participation in political actions; all I want to know is Court No. II, Case No. 4.whether or not you knew this policy was being carried out.
AAs a member of the Waffen-SS this policy was not known to me, but I stated that assa member of the Reiter-SS and a member of the Party, in a certain sense, I occupied myself with these questions to a very small extent. I have already stated that I occupied myself so little with these matters because, first of all, I was not interested in them.
Q Just one moment, witness, I don't much care for a long answer on the point. I have asked you a question. Did you know about it. I believe under direct examination you stated that you did, and you described it quite fully. Now, my question again is simply this: Did you know that such a policy was being carried out by the SS, a general policy pursued by the SS and by the Reich.
A In the direct examination, I have stated quite clearly that I did not have any knowledge of any program of the Party or the SS to carry out any extermination policy. I did not have any idea about it.
THE PRESIDENT: Listen, witness; answer this question, witness. Did you know that the Jews were being discriminated against?
A Your Honor, I haven't quite understood your question.
THE PRESIDENT: Did you know that the Jews were being discriminated against?
A Your Honor, did I understand your question to mean that this was not in my capacity as a member of the Waffen-SS, but generally?
THE PRESIDENT: You only have one mind, whether you knew it as a member of the Waffen-SS or private citizen, or any other way. Did you, a man named Pook, know that the Jews were being discriminated against?
A Just like any other resident in Germany, I had to notice -I don't know what year this was -- at the end of the 30's, the people had to start wearing the Jewish Stars. I knew that a certain discrimination existed.
THE PRESIDENT: The answer then is yes?
Court No. II, Case No. 4.
A Yes, Your Honor.
BY MR. HIGGINS:
Q And despite the fact that you knew of this discrimination against the Jews,on the part of the SS and generally on the part of the Reich, you continued to advance and appear to be sympathetic with it, did you not? In other words, your last rank in the SS was Obersturmbannfuehrer. That is a high rank. Now, despite the fact that you knew of this discrimination, you continued to carry out your job and co-operated with the SS in these things, or rather in your job, is that not right?
A Mr. Prosecutor, I knew that -- just like any other resident of Berlin or any other resident of any other cities -- but I was not able to do anything about it. I could do just as little as any other person. After all, these orders came from the highest authorities of the Reich, and they were not issued by any Party or SS agency. As I have already stated before, during the war I could not leave the WaffenSS.
Q Just a moment, witness. Did you attempt to do anything about it?
A I have already stated before, during my direct examination, that I, on my part, did not make any differences with regard to race or profession, when I treated my patients. I can prove that. I stated that I treated my patients who came to me for treatment no matter what their profession was or their political attitude. That was until I was conscripted, as long as I carried out my private profession.
THE PRESIDENT: This is the place to stop. We will recess until a quarter of two.
(A recess was taken until 1345 hours).
AFTERNOON SESSION The hearing reconvened at 1345 hours.
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal is again in session.
THE PRESIDENT: The record will indicate that the defendant Baier is absent from this afternoon session with the consent of the Court, upon request of his counsel.
WITNESS DR. HERMANN POOK CROSS-EXAMINATION (continued) BY MR. HIGGINS:
Q. Witness, prior to the recess we discussed Document No. 111, and at this time I wish to submit this document to you, and I want you to tell me whether or not from that document you can determine that dental offices were located in AMT-D-III?
A. This chart is dated 1942. In none of the the three departments, D-III/I, D-III/2 or D-III/3 is there a dental station. The word "dental " is mentioned, of course, but I stated before, in none of the organizational charts you can find a dental agency or the word "leading dentist"; that the word dental as such is used, that --
Q. One moment, witness, I don't remember the issue of the leading dentist being involved in the statement made by you on direct examination. All I wish to establish is the fact that in D-III/I and D-III/2 were located offices which were dedicated to medical and dental care of the SS and dental and medical care of the inmates, and this is correct, is it not?
A. Yes, that is what it says there. However, it does not have a main department of its own, that is what I said.
Q. That is all I want to hear. Witness, I would now like to take up matters dealing with your party affiliations; I would like to ask you to tell me when you became a member of the NSDAP.
A. I became a member on the 1st of May 1933.
Q. And what was your party number?
A. I don't recall the number. I believe it was something like two million 600 thousand arid something, but I couldn't give you the exact number.
Q. The record states that the number was 2,645,140; that sounds correct, does it not?
A. Yes, it would be about right.
Q: Now, will you tell me, witness, when you joined the Allgemeine-SS?
A: I joined the Allgemeine-SS in the summer of 1933. It was not the Algemeine-SS but the Reiter-SS the Mounted-SS. I was permitted to join the group finally, and I received my pass in March 1934, approximately. I can recall the exact date.
Q: I see. Then you were a member of the Reiter-SS in 1933?
A: Yes, as of the summer of 1933, and officially as of March 1934.
Q: The record shows that officially you were a member of the Reiter-SS as of 1933. What do you say to that?
A: Well, I just stated that I joined in the summer of 1933. I was actually accepted in March 1934. That is the date when I received my number as a member and also the pass.
Q: I would just like to tell you that according to your SS record, you are entered as an SS member as of June 1933; that is, you officially were a member of the SS in June 1933.
A: I stated before that I joined in the summer of 1933. However, at the beginning it was not an official unit of its own. It was just being established, so that really at that time we were still wearing civilian clothes and were not wearing a uniform, and I do not deny -- which fact I repeated several times -- that I was a member of the SS as of June 1933, but the official act only took place in March 1934. That was when I received my membership number and my pass. That was after I had been examined in February 1934.
Q: The Reiter-SS was a part of the Allgemeine-SS, was it not; it was a branch of the Allgemeine-SS?
A: Well, I couldn't tell you that for sure. It was some sort of a sub-department, a special department, a special part of the Allgemeine-SS, yes.
Q: What, in addition to that, can you tell me about the Reiter-SS? Rather briefly, can you tell me something about the Reiter-SS? Just what sort of an organization was it?
A: You mean he Reiter-SS in particular?
Q: Yes.
A: The Reiter SS, for its main part, consisted of the various rural horse-riding unions. All those unions, which existed all over the country, as rural unions after 1933 usually became Reitersturms of the SS -- special units of the SS. I can't tell you very much about it. All I know is that there were several Sturms in Berlin, which were later on compiled into a Reiterstandarte, which means a mounted police group. In 1933 I was a member of a Sturm, but only for a short period of time. After that I was employed as a dentist with that Sturm, and later on with the Standarte, so that from that moment on I did not really participate in the actual service. I used to do a little riding, not very much, but I did do it quite often. That, of course, was outside of my dental activity there. That was the only thing that I participated in.
Q: Now, you became a member of that organization in June 1933. Could you tell me very briefly with what organizations you were associated between the time you became a member of the Reiter-SS and the the that you assumed duties in the Waffen-SS? Can you tell me very briefly what organization you were associated with?
A: Apart from my membership in the Party, I was a member of the National Socialist Welfare. Then I was a member of the Medical Association. I was a member of a Students' Union, the National Socialist Students' Union, through my students' corporation.
Q: I believe you misunderstood my question, witness. What I would like to know are the names of the organizations with which you were associated in the SS, that is, you were with the Panzer Division, were you not -- the SSPanzorgrenadier-division?
A: During my membership in the Waffen-SS, you mean, not in the Reiter-SS? After I was conscripted into the Waffen-SS in 1940, I was also assigned a front line duty, and in that capacity as a Leading Dentist I belonged to the Ninth SS Panzerdivision Hohenstaufen. That was in 1943.
Q: You were associated with the SD, were you not? You were at one time a leader in the Medical Squadron SD, Main Office, were you not -- prior to your being drafted into the Waffen-SS?
A: I never had any connection whatsoever with the SD.
Q: You are positive that you were never at any time associated with the SD?
A: Yes, indeed. Absolutely.
Q: In this respect, I would like then to submit to you Document NO 1998, which is an extract from your service record, and for purposes of reference I would like to number it Exhibit 574. The record indicates that on 15 August 1939 you were an Untersturmfuehrer, a Leader in the Medical Squadron, SD, in the Main Office, does it not? The current number is 12, and you will see it on the left corner.
A: I don't quite see how the whole connection is. Would you give me some time to think it over? I have no idea whatsoever about it. Let's see: This probably does not stand for SD, Security Service. It probably stands for Medical Service -- the same initials. It could not be SD Main Office.
Q: What could SD in the Medical Service indicate? That seems rather novel. SD, Medical Service -- what would that be?
A: It could be the Medical Main Office. I can't understand it either.
Q: You do see, however, that under 12 you are listed as belonging to the SD or being associated with it? Isn't it indicated there under current number 12?
A: Yes, indeed. May I make a statement about this, please?
Q: Go right ahead.
THE PRESIDENT: To answer the question, of course.
A: During that time -- that is, in 1939 -- I was a member of the Sanitaetsoberstaffel I Spree as a dentist. That was my last position which I had within the Reiter-SS. It is a Medical Special Group I/Spree. I would like to explain the whole thing. All those dentists who were members of the mounted units at that time were all compiled into one single medical squadron. I was a member of the Medical Special Squadron I/Spree. That particular squadron dealt with the dental supply for the Reiter-SS.
Q: Excuse me, witness. Was that on 15 August 1939 that you state you held that position?
A: It could be. I couldn't tell you for sure, however but that was my last official position within the Reiter-SS.
Q: Then you state that this excerpt from the service record is incorrect; that you were actually never associated with the SD?
A: Yes; yes, indeed. I can tell you that to the best of my knowledge I never had anything to do with the SD.
Q: Could you tell me your SS service number?
A: Well, I don't recall the number very well. I believe it is 155,000, and I see here 155,870. That is correct.
Q: What was your highest rank in the Allgemeine-SS?
A: Untersturmfuehrer.
Q: When did you become a member of the Waffen SS?
A: On 1 October 1940.
Q: And the highest rank you held in that organization was Obersturmbannfuehrer?
A: Yes, Obersturmbannfuehrer.
Q: You were promoted to that rank in March 1942; that is correct, is it not?
A: In April 1942.
Q: And in August 1943 you were transferred to Amt D-III of the WVHA; that is correct, is it not?
A: End of August 1943, yes, that is correct.
Q: It is true, is it not, that after your call-up to the Waffen-SS you discontinued your private practice in Berlin?
A: I did continue my private practice as long as I was active in Berlin, and I worked in the evenings and also on Sundays. I even continued that activity when I was working in Oranienburg. That was when I was a member of the WVHA, and I continued that activity to as large an extent as I could. It was only when I belonged to some field unit and was not in Berlin or in Germany and during the first few weeks of my basic training in Hamburg that I could not continue my practice.
Naturally, I did not continue my practice to the same extent that I did before. I could treat only a very few patients.
Q: Your practice was very much curtailed? After your assignment to Amt D-III of the WVHA, you not only worked in Oranienburg, but you lived there also, did you not; you slept there; you stayed in Oranienburg?
A. Yes, I had a room within the dental station at Oranienburg. I spent quite a few nights out there, but I often returned to Berlin, particularly on Sundays. That is, I continued my practice as much as I could, of course, if only to a very small extent.
Q. To whom did your transfer orders directing you to the WVHA issue? In other words, who were you directed to report to in Amt D-III of the WVHA?
A. Mr. Prosecutor, I don't quite know how to understand the question. You mean report on dental matters?
Q. Who was the reporting authority contained in the orders which transferred you for duty to Amt D-III of the WVHA?
A. That was Office XIV, dental service within Amtsgruppe D of the Operational Main Office.
Q. At that time you were directed to report to Lolling, were you not?
A. Yes, Dr. Lolling was my medical superintendent, and I had to report to him, yes.
Q. And you were to assume duties as the dentist in charge as of September, 1943, that is correct, is it not?
A. My title was the leading dentist with the chief of Office DIII. I was the technical superior of all the concentration-camp dentists, and I had to advise Lolling on dental matters, and as an expert I had to deal with all the dental cases which came up, as an expert.
Q. Witness, I didn't ask you what were your duties in Amtsgruppe D. I simply asked you whether or not you were directed to report then, and as a matter of fact you did report in September of 1943 as dentist in charge, that is correct, is it not?
A. I already reported to him towards the end of August, because I had already been transferred toward the end of August. But then I took leave again, because I came back from a field unit, and I actually started my official position towards the middle of September.
Q. How long did you remain in the capacity as dentist in charge in Amt D-III? It is true, is it not, that you enjoyed that position until the capitulation, until the end of the war?
A. It was the 15th of April, that is between the 15th and the 16th of April, I was evacuated from Oranienburg, together with others, and we were the first ones from Amtsgruppe D who left Oranienburg.
Q. During your duties in Amt D-III, you had quite a few occasions to hear of Obergruppenfuehrer Pohl, did you not?
A. I have heard the name several times.
Q. In what connection did you hear the name of Pohl mentioned?
A. I only heard about him in conversations once in a while, and sometimes I saw Obergruppenfuehrer Pohl walk into the house, or when he drove up with his car, but I didn't know him.
Q. Did you have any personal contacts with him?
A. No, I didn't. I only met him here. I only met him here personally in this jail. I only knew him from sight.
Q. Then upon entering the WVHA you did not meet Obergruppenfuehrer Pohl?
A. No, because he was in Berlin, and Amtsgruppe D was in Oranienburg.
Q. Witness, I would like you to tell me something about your immediate superior, Standartenfuehrer Lolling. You were a collaborator of his. As you have just stated here this afternoon, you were his personal adviser. What can you tell me about the character of this man?
A. I was his personal consultant in dental matters. I have already testified here in this trial during the direct examination about his character, that Lolling didn't have, I would like to say, a good character. He was a morphinist; and he drank quite a lot. That in itself went to show that he didn't have a firm character. He was not very much esteemed within Amtsgruppe D. Nobody actually respected him, and he suffered very much under those conditions. As I heard, I don't quite recall when it was, he was to be transferred from his position. However, as I was told, Gluecks kept him back.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: Why ask him so much about Lolling, these details?
MR. HIGGINS: Your Honor, I think it is quite important to know something of the character of this man, rather to inquire fully into the character of this man, because he was the chief of Amtsgruppe D-III. He was the person responsible for the hundreds of thousands of inmates who were interned in these concentration camps. He was a medical man, and if things were in order you would think that a man enjoying that position would be a person that was capable and respected, and who was known for his desires to benefit humanity so to speak.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: Proceed.
BY MR. HIGGINS:
Q. Is that all you can tell me about this man Lolling?
A. I am of the opinion that from the medical standpoint he wouldn't have been very efficient, because he didn't practice at all. He had a deputy for that type of work. I don't know, Mr. Prosecutor, what else you want to know.
Q. Well, there is no question in your mind is there, Witness, that this man, Lolling, was responsible for the medical care of the inmates in concentration camps? That was his job, to see that the inmates were well cared for?
A. Yes.
Q. Would you say that he was a sadist?
A. Yes, that was his task.
Q. What do you know of his private tattoo collection? You have heard undoubtedly, and I am asking you now when you first learned about it.
A. I never heard anything about tattooings. I only heard about it here for the first time in this trial, and I never saw anything of the kind in his office.
Q. How close was his office to yours? You were both in the same building in Oranienburg, were you not?
A. As I stated before, during the day I was in the garrison dental station, which was at a distance of approximately one kilometer from the house of Amtsgruppe D within the enclosure of the barracks, and once in a while I was there in my own office within Office D-III. Lolling had an office of his own, but for most of the time he was in the office next door where his first clerk was. I only went to that office once in a while in order to see if here was any mail for me.
Q. Concerning the amount of time you spent in the office in Oranienburg, I intend to devote a little time to that later. I just want to establish the fact that you were on occasions in Lolling's office, were you not? You came to see Lolling. He sent for you when he needed your advice in certain dental matters, and you came there and you spoke to him?
A. Yes, yes, indeed.
Q. How did you feel serving under such a man as Lolling? Didn't you realize some feeling of repugnance considering yourself a subordinate to such an individual?
A. Mr. Prosecutor, I stated before that due to all these bad conditions on one hand and due to the little work which I had here, on the other hand, I tried to resign from Office D-III, very soon after my transfer, because I wanted to practice as a dentist. All of those things, and particularly my personal relationship to Lollong, contributed to the fact that I tried to find a different assignment as soon as I could.
Q. You say you wished to be relieved of your position because you wished to practice dentistry. Haven't you been telling us all along that the greatest amount of your time was spent doing that very thing, haven't you stated that?
A. Yes, indeed, and that was the only possibility for me to work at all, just through that activity in the garrison dentistry.
Q. Why do you say that your prime reason for wishing to be transferred was because you wished to practice dentistry?
A. Mr. Prosecutor, I have stated before that I had a dental station of my own in Berlin, and I was in charge of that clinic. That clinic consisted of twenty-six rooms. Four additional dentists were working with me, five technicians, and about eight auxiliary female helpers. They were all working with me. The garrison dentistry in Oranienburg, compared with that was rather small because it only had two working places.
Q. Witness, excuse me one moment. Upon asking a question, I wish you would just answer the question I ask instead of going off into different fields. It takes a great deal of time, and if you will just answer the question I ask instead of going off into different fields. It takes a great deal of time, and if you will just answer the question that I ask then I am sure we will get along much better.
You stated you did attempt to resign from your position as dental advisor to Lolling and as dental supervisor of concentration camps?
A. Yes, indeed.
Q. How great an effort did you make to resign? We have heard statements, rather statements are before this Court for individuals associated in the medical and dentists profession who attempted to resign and suc ceeded. Your predecessor in office Reuter, was one of those individuals. He became dissatisfied with Lolling, and he secured his resignation from there. Greunuss resigned working under Lolling, and he too secured a transfer. How was it these individuals were able to effect a transfer from their respective offices and you were not?
A. My predecessor Reuter remained in that particular position as long as I did. He did not succeed either to leave earlier, and I actually succeeded in doing so in the autumn of 1944, by carrying through my transfer without Lolling knowing about it. Then when the permission for transfer came from the medical office, Lolling was quite angry about it. That was the reason, of course, my not telling him anything about my transfer, that due to his despotic attitude, he tried everything he could in order to cancel this transfer. At any rate I tried to leave and my transfer was canceled. I could not do anything against it.
Court No. II, Case No. 4.
He was aggravated because I went over his head. I tried to get away with it, but the whole thing was annulled. I couldn't do a thing about it.
Q In other words, you did not succeed in transferring from D-3? Yes or no.
A No, not at that moment.
Q What did you know of the Euthanasia program that was carried out under Lolling's direction?
A Mr. Prosecutor, I have already stated that at that time when the Euthanasia program was going on in full swing I was not a member of the WVHA or of Office D-3. I know nothing at all about it, and I saw it from the documents here about all those things that were going on.
Q You did not know of his implication in sterilization and castration either then? Is that right?
A No, I never knew anything about it. I didn't even know the persons nor their names who carried out these experiments. I only found out about those names here in the Medical Trial.
Q It is true, is it not, witness, that you inspected concentration camps on orders issued by Lolling?
A Yes, indeed.
Q He issued the order to you to inspect these camps, and you inspected them and made reports on them, did you not?
A I have to state here that I didn't visit the camps themselves. I only had permission to visit the dental stations within those camps. I have stated that fact also before, that Lolling was actually against my traveling all the time. I have repeated that here several times; namely, that I succeeded in actually getting my travel orders. It was part of my task, you see, to visit those dental stations.
Q Witness, I am very much interested in knowing how you were able to inspect dental stations located in concentration camps without Court No. II, Case No. 4.visiting the camps.
How were you able to do that?
A No; I did not say so. Of course I did have to enter the protective custody camp; however, there were certain regulations concerning that visit. I was not to enter the camp all by myself, and I could only visit the dental station.
Q I did not ask you whether or not you were able to visit the concentration camps all by yourself; I just asked you how you were able to inspect dental stations located in concentration camps without visiting the concentration camps. You have stated previously that you inspected concentration camps and dental stations--but you did not visit concentration camps. Now, I was very much interested in knowing how that is to be done. I believe it is an impossibility.
You have stated that the dental stations were located in the protective custody camp.
THE PRESIDENT: Let him answer your questions, Mr. Higgins. You have got him on the point of the question--then you drop him.
MR. HIGGINS: I did not realize that I dropped him, Your Honor.
A The dental stations, generally speaking, were in those barracks where the dispensary was for the inmates. Those barracks were not in the middle of the camp, but they were usually at the edge of the camp, or often right near the entrance. I can only tell you about those things which I saw myself. I only saw very few of them. Now, for instance, I can tell you something about the camp of Sachsenhausen; the way it was there was the following. When you entered through the gate you had that large parade ground. Right behind the parade ground, you had the barracks, the dispensary, and also the dental station, therefore, was the very first barracks to your left. When I entered this dental station, I didn't see anything at all about the living barracks in the camp; I only saw them from a distance of about 100 hundred meters--but not close-up. And the same as in this particular case here applied to all the other camps. That is the only way it can be explained, that if one entered the dispensary for the dental station Court No. II, Case No. 4.one didn't have to see about the activities in the camp or the barracks themselves.