THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal is again in session.
HERMANN POOK, a defendant, took the stand and testified as follows:
THE TRIBUNAL (JUDGE PHILLIPS): Raise your right hand, please, and repeat after me;
I swear by God, the Almighty and Omniscient, that I will speak the pure truth and will withhold and add nothing.
(The witness repeated the oath).
THE TRIBUNAL (JUDGE PHILLIPS): You may be seated.
DR. HOFFMANN: Your Honor, would you please excuse the defendant Scheide tomorrow morning from this session in order to enable him to prepare his case?
THE PRESIDENT: Of course he may be excused.
DIRECT EXAMINATION BY DR. RATZ:
Q. Witness, you were born on the 1st of May 1901 in Berlin? Is that correct?
A. Yes.
Q. Please give us details about your curriculum vitae?
A. My parents came from the Harz. My father was a dentist and he used to have quite a practice in Berlin. In 1908 he moved to Berlin-Lichterfelde. My mother died already in 1934. My father is still alive; and today he is seventy-nine years of age. He is still practicing his profession. I was married in 1927 and have a son, who is eleven years old now.
Q. Would you describe to us in brief terms your professional curriculum vitae?
A. I entered Lichterfeld College in 1921. I attended school there and studied dentistry at the University of Berlin. In 1925 I passed a state examination there as a dentist. In 1927 I be came a full-fledged dentist.
Q. Did you carry on a dental practice of your own? What was the extent of your practice?
A. After I passed my state examination in 1925 I carried on the practice together with my father. That is to say I had a separate office, but we were in the same building and the same apartment. Due to the fact that my father had practiced for a long time my clients also increased very soon.
Q. When did you join the NSDAP?
A. I joined the NSDAP on the 1st of May 1933.
Q. What were the reasons for your doing so?
A. The economic depression in Germany on the one hand, and the communist danger which was increasing steadily, on the other hand compelled me to join the Party.
Q. Did you participate in the Party actively?
A. I was not too interested in the Party in a political way, I never was a member of the Party in the earlier years, nor was I active in the National Socialist Party in any way. I never participated in any rallies because I didn't have any time due to my practice.
Q. Were you a member of the General SS?
A. I was a member of the Mounted SS.
Q. How did you join the Mounted SS?
A. I used to avail myself of the opportunity before of doing a lot of horseback riding. That was a hobby of mine. Early in 1933 a few friends and school comrades of mine, met, and I was with them, too, in order to carry out this program of horseback riding. Women also participated. A few years after that, in 1933 some more gentlemen joined us with the idea of forming a mounted unit. We all joined that unit, because now horseback riding wouldn't be as ex pensive as it would be on a private basis.
Q. Therefore, you joined the SS through horseback riding: You really didn't have the intention of joining the SS, did you?
A. As far as joining the Mounted Unit is concerned it was not decisive for me that it was a Mounted Unit of the SS. The only reason was that I would have toe possibility of doing a lot of horseback riding even for later on. But I believe that we would have joined anyway if this Mounted Unit had been part of any other organization; for instance, the S A.
Q. How did you participate in the SS? What were your activities there in the Mounted SS, that is?
A. I as finally accepted in the Mounted SS in March of 1934. After a short while of my membership there, that is to say approximately two months later, I was used as a dentist. First of all I worked in the Mounted Unit itself, and later on I worked with a unit on the battalion level, as a dentist. That activity, however, limited itself to taking care of the teeth of the SS members of that particular unit. Every few months there were examinations, so-called series of examinations, and as soon as defective teeth were noticed in one of these members, they were complelled to have those teeth fixed until the next examination, and this was done by their private dentists at their own expense. My activity was more of an honorary nature. During all that time, I did not participate in any service in the Mounted Unit or in the Battalion with the exception of this dental activity of mine.
Q. What was your highest rank which you achieved in the Mounted SS?
A. Untersturm fuehrer.
Q. Would you describe to us how you joined the Waffen SS?
A. In July 1940, I was conscripted by the army. In August, 1940, I was called upon by the Waffen SS to appear there for an examination. The examination took place in September and I had to report to the Waffen-SS on the first of October, 1940. That conscription came from the army corps area at Berlin-Schoeneberg.
Q. What was your training like in the Waffen-SS?
A. On the first of October, I had to report at Berlin to the Medical Office in the Gnesebeckstrasse. I from there was sent to Hamburg for eight weeks' basic training with the replacement battalion "Germania".
Q. Where were you transferred to after your training was over?
A. Fater I had completed my basic training, on the first of December all the participants of that curriculum were sent back to the medical office.
Here all of us were promoted to non-commissioned medical officers and distributed to various units of the Waffen SS. At that time, I was transferred to Department 1-Z which was the dental service in the medical office.
Q. What were your official tasks in the medical Department 1-Z?
A. I had to take care of the files of the records of all the dental officers as far as transfers, requests for leave, TDY, promotions, etc. were concerned. Furthermore, I had to take care of the sick funds of the Reich League of German Dentists, concerning dental treatment for SS members which at that time was being carried out and taken care of by private dentists.
Q. Were you promoted during your activity with the medical office, Department 1-Z, dental service?
A. Yes, the medical officers and the dental officers in general were promoted very quickly to higher grades after basic training, on the basis of their age, and their time in the service. That was the reason why the promotions took place in a rather quick succession; in any case, as far as those were concerned who had been there for quite a while, and who were older.
Q. Din you practice as a dental officer during your activity in the SS medical office?
A. Yes, not immediately but a little later on. As I stated before, the dental care of the members of the Waffen SS was still carried out by private dentists, just as was done in the case of the Wehrmacht-that is to say, of the army, the navy or the air force. Now we tried to provide dental care for SS members in dental stations of our own. It was then decided at Berlin to establish a dental station where the numerous members of all the SS agencies in Berlin were to be taken care of. On the basis of my long previous experiences as a dentist, after all I had more than 15 years' experience behind me, I was interested in establishing these medical stations and I was placed in charge of these dental stations later on. However, before the dental station could be opened at all, temporary facilities for the treatment of SS members were established.
That occurred approximately in August 1941. From that moment on, I was active in that dental station. As the dental station which was to be newly established was not only to take care of SS members but also their families and their children, I was given an additional assignment from October 1941 on, at the dental institute of the German League of Dentists in Berlin, in the orthodont department.
Orthodontery deals with the growth of teeth. I had to take care mainly of children's teeth now and I didn't have too much of an opportunity before to deal with those things. From the fall of 1941 on, I was in the medical station of the SS on one hand, and on the other hand I was at the aforementioned institute in the afternoon. That was a private institution of the German medical society and it had nothing to do with the SS. By doing so, my time was completely taken up and a successor was appointed for me in Department 1-Z , who took over my work there.
Q. And you actually withdrew from the service of the medical office formally?
A. The new dental station which was opened on the 1st of May, 942, consisted of twenty-six rooms and on that particular day, the 1st of May, 1942, I left the medical office formally and I was subordinated to the Garrison Headquarters formally of which this medical station was part, because its name was Garrison Dental OfficeBerlin.
Q. How was the subordination in your position?
A. In that particular case, I was subordinated as far as disciplinary measures were concerned to the Garrison commander of Berlin, and as far as the medical office was concerned, I was subordinated to the Garrison Medical officer and factually, I was subordinated to Department 1-Z in the medical office, dental service.
Q. Did you serve in a combat unit of the Waffen SS?
A. Early in 1943 I was transferred to a combat unit. I started serving there as leading dentist with the Division Hohenstaufen. That was on the first of February, 1943.
Q. What was your subordination at the time?
Court No. II, Case No. 4.
A Here again in a military and disciplinary sense I was subordinated to the division commander, and in the medical sense I was subordinated to the divisional medical officer. Factually I was subordinated to Department 1/Z, which in the meantime had become Department XVI in the medical office.
Q As leading dentist with the SS Division Hohenstaufen, what were your tasks there?
A I was leading dentist with the Division Hohenstaufen, and I was active there as a dentist with a dental station in the field, and at the same time I was the factual supervisor of the other eighteen dentists who were working in the division.
Q How long did your activity last as leading dentist of the Division Hohenstaufen?
A Up to the autumn of 1943, August 1943 to be exact.
Q Where were you transferred to then?
A Toward the end of August, 1943, I was transferred to the WVHA as leading dentist, to Office D-III.
Q What were your tasks in that position?
JUDGE PHILLIPS: What was your rank in a military sense when you joined--Just a minute, what was your rank in a military sense when you joined the WVHA in August 1943?
THE WITNESS: I was already an Obersturmbannfuehrer of the Waffen-SS at the time, that is to say, leading medical officer in the field with the army, or chief field officer with the army.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: What was your highest rank in the Waffen-SS?
THE WITNESS: That was my highest rank. During all the time in the WVHA I was not promoted.
THE PRESIDENT: Sturmbannfuehrer?
THE WITNESS: Obersturmbannfuehrer, your Honor.
Q (By Dr. Ratz) As you stated before, you were transferred to the WVHA towards the end of August 1943 as leading dentist, and you became the chief dentist of Office D-III in the WVHA, is that correct?
Court No. II, Case No. 4.
What were your official tasks in that position?
A I was working there as a dentist in the medical station at Oranienburg. I also was leading dentist with the chief of Office D-III. Then I was an expert with questions pertaining to dentistry and medical questions.
Q Would you tell us your position as leading dentist in Office D-III by going into detail?
A Here also I had a three-fold subordination just as it was with the other agencies. I was subordinated in the military and disciplinary sense to the chief of Amtsgruppe D, Gluecks; in a medical sense to the chief physician, and also to the chief of Office D-III, Lolling, and factually I was again subordinated to Office XVI dental service in the medical office.
Q What was your relationship towards the dentists of the concentration camps?
A Here again I was a leading dentist in the division, and I was the factual supervisor of all the dental officers in this sector, i.e., the dental officers in the concentration camps. At the same time I was used as a liaison officer between those camp dental officers and Office XVI in the medical office.
Q You said that in a medical sense you were subordinated to Standartenfuehrer Lolling of the Office D-III. What was Lolling's position there?
A Lolling was the chief of the medical office in the WVHA, and as chief of Office D-III he was the superior of all camp physicians, and thus he was also in charge of all the dental officers in the camps.
Q Did you collaborate with Lolling, were you Lolling's deputy?
AAs I stated before, my main task was to work as a practicing dentist in the garrison of Oranienburg. If Lolling wanted to have some expert opinion on dental matters, he sent for me. That is how it happened that I did not enter the building of the WVHA at all on some days and even if I did enter the WVHA my presence there was only limited to Court No. II, Case No. 4.a short period of time.
This was already explained by the witness Ramler here on the witness stand, namely, that he saw me in my office very rarely or in the Amtsgruppe itself. Due to the difference in our field of tasks, and also due to my factual experience prior to my entering the WVHA, a dentist could never represent or deputize for a medical officer. That was the reason why I could never be Lolling's deputy. In my time, that is to say in the year 1944 when I was a member of Office D-III, Lolling, when he was absent, was represented by a camp physician, that is to say, by the camp physician of Sachsenhausen.
My entire activity as a dentist in Office D-III was very unsatisfactory. First of all it was due to the fact that practically speaking there wasn't anything to do. Then in addition to that there was the factor that I as a man who practiced did not like to work in an office anyway. A further reason was that in my activity there were also difficulties on the part of Lolling, and by that I mean official difficulties. The leading dentist in the agency of the Reich Physician SS and Police, repeatedly tried to facilitate my field of tasks and to create a better relationship between myself and Lolling. That was the reason why he had several conferences with Lolling. Unfortunately he did not succeed in doing so. That was the reason why immediately after my entry into the service I tried to get a job somewhere else as a dentist within the Waffen-SS.
Q Were your attempts to be transferred entirely from OfficeD-III, successful?
A Yes, they were successful. It must have been in the fall of 1944 when I received a notification of a transfer from the personnel section of the medical office, according to which I was being transferred to the Waffen-SS as a leading dentist.
Q Did that transfer actually take place?
A No, it didn't. I don't know why, and I never did find out anything about it. However, I have to assume that Lolling, so to speak, had made certain remarks in the medical office behind my back, and that Court No. II, Case No. 4.transfer was cancelled.
In any case I had requested the transfer anyway without discussing it with him before.
Q During your various jobs which you held in the Waffen-SS, did you continue your private practice?
A Yes, during all those years I continued working at night and Sundays when possible and I continued on my private practice in Berlin-Lichterfelde, that is with the exception of the time when I was with the division.
Q I shall now come to your activity in the medical office of the Waffen-SS, Department 1/z, dental service. How long were you working there?
A I worked there from the 15th of December, 1940, to August, 1941, while my formal membership extended up to the 1st of May, 1942.
Q Witness, will you tell us a few things about the development of the dental service of the Waffen-SS?
A When towards the end of 1944, I was transferred to the dental service of the medical office, that dental service was rather small. In its early stages it only consisted of two rooms, but through the reconstruction of the Waffen-SS in 1941, and by setting up numerous new divisions, a compulsory extension of the dental service became necessary, and it was also realized that healthy teeth were good for the general physical condition of a human being. Thus during that time a large number of dentists were conscripted into the army who generally speaking were members of the General-SS in order to alleviate those conditions.
The dentists who were conscripted there were not young, anymore, generally speaking. They had private practices for years. As I stated before, as long as they had not received any basic training they were sent to that training and, as I stated before, their rank was fixed according to the time spent in service and experience in service. Later on, they were also promoted much faster than the other army officers.
Department 1-Z then became a Main department with several other departments. And later on after the large reorganization took place in 1943 it became Amt 14 in the operational main office.
Q. In the Operational Main Office and not in the WVHA?
A. No, not in the WVHA. The official designation was Office14 in Amtsgruppe D, Medical Office of the Waffen SS in the Operational Main Office.
Q. Would you now tell us what your job consisted of, as far as the inmates were concerned?
A. There was no difference in the treatment given by dentists in the Waffen-SS, regardless of who was being treated: an SS member or a concentration camp inmate. The treatment was always the same.
Q. Was that the official attitude of Office-14 in the Operational Main Office?
A. Yes. Office-14 and the chief at the time, Dr. Blaschke, felt that way too. In Office-14 this opinion was not only restricted to the treatment itself but also applied to the installation of the dental station and the provision for medical equipment.
Q. What were the competencies and the tasks of the Office-14 which you just mentioned?
A. The competence of Office-14 of the Dental Service in the medical office extended to all dental questions, both in a factual sense as well as in a personnel sense. And it was competent for all dentists of the Waffen-SS. It had to take care of the supply of all dental facilities for all the Main offices, including the WVHA and the concentration camps in connection with that, the same as it had to take care of supplying SS combat units out in the field or SS dental stations in SS garrisons in the homeland.
The tasks were the establishment of new dental stations and the supplying of these stations with all sorts of equipment and material.
Q. You told me that it was also competent in a personnel sense.
A. Yes, I said that. Yes, I said both in factual matters and also in personnel questions, with reference to all the dentists in the Waffen-SS.
Q. In the indictment it is stated that you were the Chief Dentist of the WVHA, and that all the dental officers in the concentration camps were subordinated to you. Would you make a statement as to that?
A. There was no such thing as a Chief Dental Officer in the Waffen-SS. Therefore, there was no such thing in the WVHA either. There was only one office chief in the dental service, and it was the Chief of Office-14 of the Medical Office. The dentists in the concentration camps were subordinated to me, as leading dentist, only in a factual sense. I was a liaison officer in Office-14.
Q. Witness, will you please explain how the establishment of supervising offices came about?
A. First of all, the term which you used before--leading dentist--did not necessarily mean that there had to be an office there. It is just a term. The leading dentist was necessary because as the result of the increase in the number of dentists the supervision had become more difficult. In order to eliminate that difficulty, this office of the leading dentist was established. That only applied to larger units: to the divisions and the field units of the Waffen-SS and the WVHA. That is to say, D-3.
As I stated before, the leading dentist was the factual supervisor of all the dentists who were working in his sphere, in his
Q. Would you explain to us now what the tasks of the leading dentists were, in general?
A. The leading dentist had to supervise those dentists who were under him, and he also had the right to exercise a control over them. The orders which came from the dental service of Office-14 in the Medical Office were sent to the dentist subordinated to them. The same is true of the monthly reports which were requested by Office-14; they were gathered by the physicians subordinated to them and forwarded to Office-14.
In other words, it was nothing but a transient agency in order to facilitate the tasks of Office-14.
Q. What were the qualities that the medical officers of the Waffen-SS had both in a factual and authoritative sense?
A. As I stated before, the largest percentage of the dentists who had been called into the Waffen-SS were all experienced and elderly dentists who had practiced for years privately. They had no criminal records, but rather they had carried on their dental activities and their private practices according to the normal ideas of morality and ethics. And they also carried on that activity under the same ideas, even when they were conscripted into the Waffen-SS, regardless of whether they were working, or being used in combat units, in depots or in a concentration camp as camp dentists.
Q. You stated before that later on the Main Department 1-Z became an office of it's own?
A. Yes; in the spring of 1943 the Medical Service of the Waffen-SS was reorganized and the medical office became a Main office in the WVHA. Therefore, the dental service became an independent office with several main departments. Nothing changed in the competence or in the field of tasks of the dental office and the medical office.
Q. I would appreciate it now if you would tell us what your activity was in Department 1-Z of the Medical Office. Did you have the authority to sign orders?
What was the extent of the work you had there, and who made all the necessary decisions as far as personnel matters were concerned?
A. As a person dealing with personnel questions, I could recommend transfers, approve or disapprove leaves and recommend promotions. The final decisions concerning personnel questions were made by the personnel office of the Medical Office.
Apart from that, I had to carry out the auditing of the accounts which had to be turned in by all the German Society of Dentists. This was nothing but factual and mathematical auditing and it was carried out by me and I passed on the vouchers to the Medical Office for payment.
Q. In order to understand the extent of the Office, would you tell us how many other experts worked in that department that you just mentioned, in 1-Z of the Medical Office?
A. There was a Chief of Department 1-Z, a Deputy Chief, and there were three experts, including myself.
Q. Who was the chief of the department? Who was his deputy?
AAt the time the chief was the former Standartenfuehrer Dr. Blaschke, who later on became leading dentist with the agency of the Reich Physician. His deputy was the Hauptsturmfuehrer Dr. Yost.
Q During your activity with the medical office, did you have anything to do with concentration camps?
A Yes.
Q What did you have to do with camp dentists at the time?
AAs the Dental Service, as I stated before, was pompetent for all dental questions, I myself had to keep records of the personnel files of all the dentists in the camps, the same as it applied to all the other records concerning the dentists. The monthly reports were also evaluated in the other departments and the monthly applications for sunds were dealt with there too, and passed on to the Medical Office, if they were approved.
Q Do you mean the applications and requisitions of the dental staff?
A Yes.
Q Did you, during your activity at the time or later on, find out anything or hear anything about inhumane actions in the concentration camps -- by that I mean, gassings and killings?
A No, during all the time of may activity in the Medical Office, that is to say, from September, 1940 to August, 1941, I never at any time had any knowledge about the extermination camps, nor did I know anything about cruelties and other inhumane treatment. However, later on, I never heard anything about these things, nor did I see anything.
Q Please tell us in detail about your activity as Chief Dentist in Office D-III with Dr. Lolling. How long were you working for him there? I am going to ask you a series of questions now.
A From the middle of September, 1943, up to the 15th of April, 1944.
Q What can you tell us about his personality as a such and about your relationship to him?
A It is rather difficult for me to say something at this point, because Lolling is dead, as I heard, and what I have to say about him is not good. I could not appreciate Lolling as a physician or as a human being. When I found out that I was transferred to his office, Lolling had just gone through a cure because he was a addict. The other office chiefs who were on the same level as I in office Group D did not appreciate him very much. They showed him that openly by the treatment which they gave him. They just didn't accept in their circle and he was quite aware of that. In order to create a counter-balance he was very bossy with other people where he could actually do it on the basis of his official capacity. He was constantly endeavoring to become indispensible to his chiefs, and he saw to it all the time that nothing was taken away from him with reference to competence and authority. All those things did not help to bring about a better or more friendly relationship with him. He had a certain circle of friends to which I did not belong and to which I really didn't want to belong.
Q Did you have frequent conversations with him? Did he tell you anything about his competence?
A I had very few official dealings with him, but even those few conferences which I had with him only referred to dental questions. Even in that particular field he made decisions without conferring with me about them. As I stated before, as my medical superior he gave me trouble. All those things naturally compelled me to try to find a different job with the Waffen SS as a dentist.
Q How was your subordination to Lolling?
A I believe that I already stated before that militarily and disciplinarily I was subordinated to Gluecks the Chief of the Amtsgruppe D, and in medical sense I was subordinated to the Chief of Office, D-III, Lolling, and I was subordinated to Office 14 in Amtsgruppe D of the Operational Main Office.
Q Therefore, you had three superiors. What was your official relationship with regard to these three superiors?
A That applied to all dentists. Each dentist had a three-fold subordination system over him, so to say. I, as dentist in Amtsgruppe D hardly had any official contacts whatsoever with Gluecks, my military superior. There was only one occasion when I stepped into his office, and that was shortly after my transfer, in order to report to him just as it is customary in the military service. I had a few things to do with Lolling as my medical superior and with Office 14 in the Medical Office, that is to say, with the Chief of office and I had something to do in a factual respect, because, just as all the concentration camp dentists were factually subordinated to me, I was subordinated to the Chief of Office 14 in the Operational Main Office. All orders and reports of a factual nature came form there and I also had to forward all the monthly reports asked for by Office 14 to them. That activity of mine as a leading dentist was of such a subordinate nature that this was one of the reasons why I was looking for a different assignment. The only thing was that I could work in the dental station as a leading dentist.
Q What was you position as a leading dentist toward the subordinated dentists?
A I was the factual superior of the camp dentist. However, I had no authority to issue any orders of my own. All orders of a factual nature came from Office 14.
Q Will you explain to us the subordination system as far as the camp dentists were concerned?
A. The camp dentists also had a three-fold subordination. By that I mean, in a military and disciplinary sense, to the camp commandant; medically, to the camp physician; factually they were subordinated to me.
Q The camp dentists, just like you, therefore could receive orders from three different directions. Therefore, it was possible that a camp dentist would receive an order from the camp commandant or the camp medical officer of which you as leading dentist and factual superior knew nothing at all?
A Yes, it was absolutely possible. The camp dentist could receive an order from the camp commandant, or the camp medical officer, of which I knew nothing. That was an internal camp matter.
Q According to your opinion, how far did your official responsibility go?
A My official responsibility arose from my official position. I had to obey my superior and I was responsible for the actions on the part of the camp dentists who were subordinated to me factually, but only as far as actions were concerned, as I said, within the framework of my capacity as supervisor.
Q If a camp dentist received an order from a camp commandant or from a camp medical officer, then he himself had to take the responsibility; is that correct?
THE PRESIDENT: We will recess until tomorrow morning at 9:30.
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal will recess until 9:30 tomorrow morning.
(The Tribunal adjourned until July 3, 1947, at 0930 hours.)
Court No. II, Case No. 4.
Official Transcript of the American Military Tribunal in the matter of the United States of America against Oswald Pohl, et al, defendants, sitting at Nurnberg, Germany, on 3 July 1947, 0930-1500, Justice Robert M. Toms, presiding.
THE MARSHAL: Take your seats, please.
The Honorable, the Judges of Military Tribunal No. 2.
Military Tribunal No. 2 is now in session. Gos save the United States of America and this honorable Tribunal.
There will be order in the court.
THE PRESIDENT: The record will indicate that the defendant Scheide is absent from this session of court by request of his counsel and with leave of the Court.
DR. FRITSCH (Counsel for defendant Baier): Your Honor, I would appreciate it if the defendant Baier could possibly be excused this afternoon from this court in order to enable him to prepare his defense.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal will recess at three o'clock anyway. The Tribunal proposes to recess for the day at three o'clock anyway. Your client may be excused at twelve thirty.
HERMANN POOK - Resumed DIRECT EXAMINATION (Continued) BY DR. RATZ (Counsel for the Defendant Pook):
Q Witness, I asked you yesterday about the position and activity which you had in Office D-3. I would like to continue with the examination today. It says in the indictment that you had something to do with the dental care of the concentration camp inmates. Is that correct?
A The dental care of all those who belonged to the Waffen-SSand, therefore, also of the concentration camp inmates was subordinated to Office 14 in the Operational Main Office. All regulations for the entire dental service came from there, and this office also had to carry out the supplying of material and the establishment of new stations.
In this particular case, I was acting as a liaison officer between the dental officers of the camps and the Office 14 of the Oper ational Main Office.