Q You stated, I believe that you were examined by a physician prior to getting your commission, after you were in D II.
A I was an officer of the army on leave; and before I was drafted into the Waffen SS I had the usual medical examination. The translation just now said, "When you were promoted." That is why I give this reply.
Q You also stated that at the time you applied for your first job with the SS you were told that had you been in the Waffen SS you would never have been discharged from the army. Is that correct?
A I'm afraid I didn't understand your question.
Q Did or did you not state that when you were interviewed for your first job by the SS Veterans' Administration you were told that had you been in the Waffen SS and sustained the wound that you did sustain you would not have been discharged from the army?
A What I said was that the welfare officer of the SS told me that with the Waffen SS I would not have been discharged with a wound of that sort, and I was told that I would have had to serve on the barracks square as a reserve trainee, whereas the Wehrmacht acted more generously.
Q I think you left a few missimpressions with the Court yesterday concerning your connection with Auschwitz. To begin with, wasn't the number of Jews assigned to Auschwitz from Hungary two hundred thousand rather than one hundred thousand?
A During the first conference of at the time of the first information that Jews would come from Hungary, the figure mentioned was one hundred thousand. They were supposed to be Jews who had been members of building batallions. Later on it was said that it might be more.
Q Did't you state on any occasion that the figure was between 150,000 and 200,000?
A Later on it was stated that more than 100,000 would come, yes; and then the figure of between 150,000 to 200,000 was mentioned.
Q You stated in interrogations that it was between 150,000 and 200,000?
AAt first it was 100,000, and later on it was mentioned that it was more.
Q You also created the impression that you heard about the arrival of Jews for the first time when Gluecks informed you of the gassings. Gluecks informed you in June or July, didn't he?
A The exact date is not quite clear to me any more; but I always assumed, until now that this Hungarian action started in June. However from the documents I see that it started as early as May. That is why I said yesterday it must have been May or June.
Q You said yesterday June or July. Now you have already stated on a previous occasion that Maurer informed you in May that they were coming, didn't you?
A I said yesterday it must have been May or June.
Q Well, didn't you on a previous occasion say that you were first informed of this whole action by Maurer?
A No, I said that Gluecks was the first one to inform me.
A.- No, I said that Gluecks was the first one to inform me.
Mr. RUDOLPH: I would like to check a document for a moment, if the Court please.
THE PRESIDENT: He said May or June, and he said Gluecks.
Mr. RUDOLPH: Yes, but I have another document in mind, and he said something else.
THE PRESIDENT: You asked him what he said yesterday, I remember that.
Mr. RUDOLPH: Yes, and then I asked him if one some previous occasion he had said something else.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: While you are looking for your document let me ask a question.
BY JUDGE PHILLIPS:
Q.- Burger is in prison here in Nurnberg now, is he not?
A.- Burger? Yes, he is in prison here.
Q.- With what Amtsgruppe of the WVHA was he assigned?
A.- He was Chief of Office D-IV.
Q.- For how long was he chief of Office D-IV?
A.- From the middle of 1943 until the collapse.
Q.- Maurer is also in prison here now?
A.- Yes, sir.
Q.-When was he placed in prison?
A.- That must have been in March, March of this year, I believe.
Q.- Have you conferred with him since he has been in jail?
A.- No, sir; I have not.
Q.- You have had no opportunity to communicate with him in any way about the testimony in this case?
A.- No, sir.
Q.- Do you know under what circumstances Maurer was arrested?
A.- Yes, I do.
Q.- How did he happen to be arrested?
A.- Burger, when we were arraigned before this Tribunal, had entered the courtroom and had been identified, and as a result of that Maurer was also arrested.
Q.- Burger was identified first?
A.- Yes, Your Honor.
Q.- But both of them were arrested after this case began, therefore they are not on trial, is that correct?
A.- Yes, Your Honor.
Q.- This trial had already begun by the arraignment, bill of indictment had been served, and all before either one of them was placed in custody?
A.- Yes, quite.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: That is all.
BY MR. RUDOLPH:
Q.- Do you recall an interrogation by Alfred Buch on the 4th of October 1946?
A.- I was interrogated about twenty times. When these various interrogations happened, I don't remember.
Q.- Will you take my word that you were interrogated by Alfred Buch on the 4th of October?
A.- Perhaps I may have a look at the document.
Q.- Do you recall the interrogation?
A.- Yes, I do.
Q.- I call your attention to the following answer made by you in response to this question. I want you specifically to note there is nothing in here that could have been suggested by the interrogator, that all the information was volunteered by you.
"Q.- But you were aware of the origin of these watches and how the camps Auschwitz and Lublin obtained them?
"A.- The explanation given to me was to the effect that these watches were confiscated by the Reich from Jews, Poles, Russians. I was in charge of this watch business until the end of 1943 when it was passed on to another, In 1943 Maurer appointed me his deputy, saying that a Fuehrer had to be appointed in every office as deputy for the office chief, someone versed in all matters pertaining to his sphere of work.
In May or June 1944 I was informed by Maurer that a large number of Jews were expected from Hungary. The camp Auschwitz was to receive all Jews. Their number was given as one hundred and fifty to two hundred thousand, and I was ordered to pass these prisoners on immediately to the firms." Do you deny making that answer?
A.- No. When--
Q.- You also stated in that interrogation, and in every subsequent interrogation, that the only reason you asked to be relieved of this assignment was because of the great amount of work that you had, isn't that true?
A. That was the reason I pretended. I said here that I did not wish to be connected with these things.
Q.- But you had an opportunity to make that statement on previous occasions, and the first time you ever made it was on the witness stand yesterday, is it not?
A.- No.
THE PRESIDENT: Is this impeachment?
MR. RUDOLPH: Yes.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, it is certainly impeachment on a collateral or immaterial matter, whether Gluecks told him in May or June, and whether or not he -
MR. RUDOLPH: No, I think he tried to create the impression yesterday your Honor, as soon as he heard about - or at least this is the impression I got - as soon as he heard these Jews were being sent to Auschwitz for extermination he tried to do everything he could to reduce the number who would be exterminated by immediately assigning them to various industrial firms and various work assignments.
THE PRESIDENT: Yes.
MR. RUDOLPH: And actually that is not the case, because this clearly shows he was ordered by Maurer, before he was even aware of the fact that they were to be exterminated, to find places for one hundred and fifty to two hundred thousand Jews who were expected at Auschwitz.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, it is not entirely clear to me, but be ahead and develop it.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: What reason does he assign in the interrogation to his side-stepping the duty which would have involved recording the number of deaths at Auschwitz?
MR. RUDOLPH: The reason assigned is given as follows: "I asked Gluecks to assign this job to some other member of our office as I was buried in work. I was already at work from 8:00 a.m. to 8:00 p.m.", and that is the only reason assigned in this interrogation or any other interrogation that we have from the Defendant Sommer.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: Isn't that what he said on the witness stand also?
MR. RUDOLPH: Yes, he said that, Your Honor, but he didn't say anything about receiving the order from Maurer to find these jobs, which I think is quite important from the time angle. It puts him in a different light if he establishes that he did this very suddenly because of the plight of the Jews, and not because of orders from Maurer.
Q.- (By Mr. Rudolph) Witness, didn't you think it a bit unusual, in view of the excellent food conditions that you have described, that there would be a black market in meatballs made of horse meat at Sachsenhausen?
A.- Black market? What black market? By black market you mean in Germany certain things. If I sell meatballs in a cafeteria to those who are able to buy things in a cafeteria, this is not black market. If I eat no meat dishes day after day, I am only too glad to get meat suddenly, no matter what sort of meat it is, and that became possible by selling meatballs in the cafeteria. That was the only way why they could take these high prices which I mentioned yesterday, That has nothing to do with the food angle.
Q.- But you cited that as an example of corruption going on in the canteens in your interrogation?
A.- Yes.
Q.- Doesn't that indicate to you that there was something wrong with the food?
A.- No, all the fuss is that something was wrong with the decency and honor of the camp commandants.
Q.- You stated that Maurer was an easy man to get along with as long as you did your work in the manner you were supposed to.
A.- Yes.
Q.- And you did your work as ordered, did you not?
A.- Yes.
Q.- And when he ordered you to find jobs for these one hundred and fifty to two hundred thousand jews coming from Hungary, you complied with his order, did you not, yes or no?
A.- Maurer told me at the time -
Q.- I asked you -
A.- Yes, I followed that order.
THE PRESIDENT: We didn't hear it.
A.- Yes, I followed that order.
THE PRESIDENT: There was something after that, zweihunderstausend.
THE INTERPRETER: Tell him to repeat.
A.- What I said was I followed that order not only for 200,000, but in my opinion there were for more.
Mr. RUDOLPH: I have no further questions at this time, if it please the Tribunal.
Court No. II, Case No. 4.
THE PRESIDENT: Any other questions by Defense Counsel? Cross examinations? All right; re-direct, then?
RE-DIRECT EXAMINATION BY DR. BELZER (Counsel for defendant Sommer):
Q Witness, to clear up some things I want to put a few brief questions to you. When you were cross-examined by the Prosecution, reference was made to labor allocation of concentration camp inmates on bomb-disposal work. I would like to ask you who issued the requests to transfer concentration camp inmates for bomb-disposal?
A The basic order was issued by Goering. It concerned not only inmates of concentration camps but inmates also of all penal institutions and concentration camps. The request came from the local police or ARP authorities.
Q Who carried out the allocation?
A The police requested then and the camp commandant transferred them.
Q Office D-2 or Office Group D, in other words, had nothing to do with that type of allocation?
AAfterwards, after the transfer was carried out they were informed.
Q In order to clear up the point as to when you heard first of the arrival of Hungarian Jews, I seem to remember that on direct examination, you said yesterday that you heard first through Maurer of the arrival of these Jews who had been working in the rear area on building work.
But, independent of that, you were told later by Gluecks of the extermination of Jews?
A Yes.
THE PRESIDENT: We understand that; we heard it yesterday and we are not in any doubt as to what he said.
Q Now, as for the reason why you turned down Gluecks to keep a list of the figures, certainly the truth is that both in your first Court No. II, Case No. 4.interrogation as well as on direct examination yesterday you were examined first of all with respect to what reason you had given Gluecks?
A Yes.
Q And I put it to you that surely that was not a particularly convincing reason because work had not been too much-
THE PRESIDENT: We heard all this, and we have good memories. I think we can repeat the answers to your question now in the same words that the witness used...so don't spend any time on it.
Q I then have no further questions to put to this witness, although I would like -
RE-CROSS EXAMINATION BY MR. RUDOLPH:
Q How frequently did you attend meetings of the Labor Allocation officers?
AAs I remember it, there were three such meetings in the three years, and I attended one when it had reached the second day and the actual conference was over, and the Buna works were being inspected.
Q What did you prepare for the office in connection with those meetings, for the person who represented the office?
A The conference was being directed regularly by Maurer, and I don't think any preparations were necessary; Maurer knew his stuff so well that he had all the necessary questions at his fingertips.
Q Did he report to you in any way as to what transpired after the meetings?
A I was present at two conferences but not at the other one.
Q I say: did he ever make a report or indicate to you what had transpired at the meetings?
A No.
Q Did you ever ask to be transferred from your assignment in D-2? Did you ever ask for front-duty or in any way request a change in your assignment?
Court No. II, Case No. 4.
A Mr. Prosecutor, I had taken part in two campaigns. I was badly wounded in France. I was no longer fit for military service. I could not be transferred to the front. In 1943 I attempted to leave D-2; I wanted to work as a civilian employee with the firm. But Maurer turned me down flat, pointing out that there was a war on and everybody had to do his duty wherever he was.
Q Just answer the question I put to you: Did you ever ask for front-duty or any other type of assignment as an SS officer than what you did at D-2?
A Yes.
Q I am not referring to the time you wanted a civilian job. I am referring to some other type, other than that.
A I was a soldier, Mr. Prosecutor, as I was before; and I had to do my duty where I was.
THE PRESIDENT: Just answer the question. Did you ever ask to be transferred from D-2? Yes or no.
WITNESS: Apart from 1943--no.
MR. RUDOLPH: I have no further questions.
THE PRESIDENT: No further questions of this witness by any counsel?
The Court will be in recess, and during the recess the Marshal will remove this witness and produce the next witness ready to testify.
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal will recess for fifteen minutes.
(A recess was taken.)
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal is again in session.
HERMANN POOK, a defendant, took the stand and testified as follows:
THE TRIBUNAL (JUDGE PHILLIPS): Raise your right hand, please, and repeat after me;
I swear by God, the Almighty and Omniscient, that I will speak the pure truth and will withhold and add nothing.
(The witness repeated the oath).
THE TRIBUNAL (JUDGE PHILLIPS): You may be seated.
DR. HOFFMANN: Your Honor, would you please excuse the defendant Scheide tomorrow morning from this session in order to enable him to prepare his case?
THE PRESIDENT: Of course he may be excused.
DIRECT EXAMINATION BY DR. RATZ:
Q. Witness, you were born on the 1st of May 1901 in Berlin? Is that correct?
A. Yes.
Q. Please give us details about your curriculum vitae?
A. My parents came from the Harz. My father was a dentist and he used to have quite a practice in Berlin. In 1908 he moved to Berlin-Lichterfelde. My mother died already in 1934. My father is still alive; and today he is seventy-nine years of age. He is still practicing his profession. I was married in 1927 and have a son, who is eleven years old now.
Q. Would you describe to us in brief terms your professional curriculum vitae?
A. I entered Lichterfeld College in 1921. I attended school there and studied dentistry at the University of Berlin. In 1925 I passed a state examination there as a dentist. In 1927 I be came a full-fledged dentist.
Q. Did you carry on a dental practice of your own? What was the extent of your practice?
A. After I passed my state examination in 1925 I carried on the practice together with my father. That is to say I had a separate office, but we were in the same building and the same apartment. Due to the fact that my father had practiced for a long time my clients also increased very soon.
Q. When did you join the NSDAP?
A. I joined the NSDAP on the 1st of May 1933.
Q. What were the reasons for your doing so?
A. The economic depression in Germany on the one hand, and the communist danger which was increasing steadily, on the other hand compelled me to join the Party.
Q. Did you participate in the Party actively?
A. I was not too interested in the Party in a political way, I never was a member of the Party in the earlier years, nor was I active in the National Socialist Party in any way. I never participated in any rallies because I didn't have any time due to my practice.
Q. Were you a member of the General SS?
A. I was a member of the Mounted SS.
Q. How did you join the Mounted SS?
A. I used to avail myself of the opportunity before of doing a lot of horseback riding. That was a hobby of mine. Early in 1933 a few friends and school comrades of mine, met, and I was with them, too, in order to carry out this program of horseback riding. Women also participated. A few years after that, in 1933 some more gentlemen joined us with the idea of forming a mounted unit. We all joined that unit, because now horseback riding wouldn't be as ex pensive as it would be on a private basis.
Q. Therefore, you joined the SS through horseback riding: You really didn't have the intention of joining the SS, did you?
A. As far as joining the Mounted Unit is concerned it was not decisive for me that it was a Mounted Unit of the SS. The only reason was that I would have toe possibility of doing a lot of horseback riding even for later on. But I believe that we would have joined anyway if this Mounted Unit had been part of any other organization; for instance, the S A.
Q. How did you participate in the SS? What were your activities there in the Mounted SS, that is?
A. I as finally accepted in the Mounted SS in March of 1934. After a short while of my membership there, that is to say approximately two months later, I was used as a dentist. First of all I worked in the Mounted Unit itself, and later on I worked with a unit on the battalion level, as a dentist. That activity, however, limited itself to taking care of the teeth of the SS members of that particular unit. Every few months there were examinations, so-called series of examinations, and as soon as defective teeth were noticed in one of these members, they were complelled to have those teeth fixed until the next examination, and this was done by their private dentists at their own expense. My activity was more of an honorary nature. During all that time, I did not participate in any service in the Mounted Unit or in the Battalion with the exception of this dental activity of mine.
Q. What was your highest rank which you achieved in the Mounted SS?
A. Untersturm fuehrer.
Q. Would you describe to us how you joined the Waffen SS?
A. In July 1940, I was conscripted by the army. In August, 1940, I was called upon by the Waffen SS to appear there for an examination. The examination took place in September and I had to report to the Waffen-SS on the first of October, 1940. That conscription came from the army corps area at Berlin-Schoeneberg.
Q. What was your training like in the Waffen-SS?
A. On the first of October, I had to report at Berlin to the Medical Office in the Gnesebeckstrasse. I from there was sent to Hamburg for eight weeks' basic training with the replacement battalion "Germania".
Q. Where were you transferred to after your training was over?
A. Fater I had completed my basic training, on the first of December all the participants of that curriculum were sent back to the medical office.
Here all of us were promoted to non-commissioned medical officers and distributed to various units of the Waffen SS. At that time, I was transferred to Department 1-Z which was the dental service in the medical office.
Q. What were your official tasks in the medical Department 1-Z?
A. I had to take care of the files of the records of all the dental officers as far as transfers, requests for leave, TDY, promotions, etc. were concerned. Furthermore, I had to take care of the sick funds of the Reich League of German Dentists, concerning dental treatment for SS members which at that time was being carried out and taken care of by private dentists.
Q. Were you promoted during your activity with the medical office, Department 1-Z, dental service?
A. Yes, the medical officers and the dental officers in general were promoted very quickly to higher grades after basic training, on the basis of their age, and their time in the service. That was the reason why the promotions took place in a rather quick succession; in any case, as far as those were concerned who had been there for quite a while, and who were older.
Q. Din you practice as a dental officer during your activity in the SS medical office?
A. Yes, not immediately but a little later on. As I stated before, the dental care of the members of the Waffen SS was still carried out by private dentists, just as was done in the case of the Wehrmacht-that is to say, of the army, the navy or the air force. Now we tried to provide dental care for SS members in dental stations of our own. It was then decided at Berlin to establish a dental station where the numerous members of all the SS agencies in Berlin were to be taken care of. On the basis of my long previous experiences as a dentist, after all I had more than 15 years' experience behind me, I was interested in establishing these medical stations and I was placed in charge of these dental stations later on. However, before the dental station could be opened at all, temporary facilities for the treatment of SS members were established.
That occurred approximately in August 1941. From that moment on, I was active in that dental station. As the dental station which was to be newly established was not only to take care of SS members but also their families and their children, I was given an additional assignment from October 1941 on, at the dental institute of the German League of Dentists in Berlin, in the orthodont department.
Orthodontery deals with the growth of teeth. I had to take care mainly of children's teeth now and I didn't have too much of an opportunity before to deal with those things. From the fall of 1941 on, I was in the medical station of the SS on one hand, and on the other hand I was at the aforementioned institute in the afternoon. That was a private institution of the German medical society and it had nothing to do with the SS. By doing so, my time was completely taken up and a successor was appointed for me in Department 1-Z , who took over my work there.
Q. And you actually withdrew from the service of the medical office formally?
A. The new dental station which was opened on the 1st of May, 942, consisted of twenty-six rooms and on that particular day, the 1st of May, 1942, I left the medical office formally and I was subordinated to the Garrison Headquarters formally of which this medical station was part, because its name was Garrison Dental OfficeBerlin.
Q. How was the subordination in your position?
A. In that particular case, I was subordinated as far as disciplinary measures were concerned to the Garrison commander of Berlin, and as far as the medical office was concerned, I was subordinated to the Garrison Medical officer and factually, I was subordinated to Department 1-Z in the medical office, dental service.
Q. Did you serve in a combat unit of the Waffen SS?
A. Early in 1943 I was transferred to a combat unit. I started serving there as leading dentist with the Division Hohenstaufen. That was on the first of February, 1943.
Q. What was your subordination at the time?
Court No. II, Case No. 4.
A Here again in a military and disciplinary sense I was subordinated to the division commander, and in the medical sense I was subordinated to the divisional medical officer. Factually I was subordinated to Department 1/Z, which in the meantime had become Department XVI in the medical office.
Q As leading dentist with the SS Division Hohenstaufen, what were your tasks there?
A I was leading dentist with the Division Hohenstaufen, and I was active there as a dentist with a dental station in the field, and at the same time I was the factual supervisor of the other eighteen dentists who were working in the division.
Q How long did your activity last as leading dentist of the Division Hohenstaufen?
A Up to the autumn of 1943, August 1943 to be exact.
Q Where were you transferred to then?
A Toward the end of August, 1943, I was transferred to the WVHA as leading dentist, to Office D-III.
Q What were your tasks in that position?
JUDGE PHILLIPS: What was your rank in a military sense when you joined--Just a minute, what was your rank in a military sense when you joined the WVHA in August 1943?
THE WITNESS: I was already an Obersturmbannfuehrer of the Waffen-SS at the time, that is to say, leading medical officer in the field with the army, or chief field officer with the army.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: What was your highest rank in the Waffen-SS?
THE WITNESS: That was my highest rank. During all the time in the WVHA I was not promoted.
THE PRESIDENT: Sturmbannfuehrer?
THE WITNESS: Obersturmbannfuehrer, your Honor.
Q (By Dr. Ratz) As you stated before, you were transferred to the WVHA towards the end of August 1943 as leading dentist, and you became the chief dentist of Office D-III in the WVHA, is that correct?
Court No. II, Case No. 4.
What were your official tasks in that position?
A I was working there as a dentist in the medical station at Oranienburg. I also was leading dentist with the chief of Office D-III. Then I was an expert with questions pertaining to dentistry and medical questions.
Q Would you tell us your position as leading dentist in Office D-III by going into detail?
A Here also I had a three-fold subordination just as it was with the other agencies. I was subordinated in the military and disciplinary sense to the chief of Amtsgruppe D, Gluecks; in a medical sense to the chief physician, and also to the chief of Office D-III, Lolling, and factually I was again subordinated to Office XVI dental service in the medical office.
Q What was your relationship towards the dentists of the concentration camps?
A Here again I was a leading dentist in the division, and I was the factual supervisor of all the dental officers in this sector, i.e., the dental officers in the concentration camps. At the same time I was used as a liaison officer between those camp dental officers and Office XVI in the medical office.
Q You said that in a medical sense you were subordinated to Standartenfuehrer Lolling of the Office D-III. What was Lolling's position there?
A Lolling was the chief of the medical office in the WVHA, and as chief of Office D-III he was the superior of all camp physicians, and thus he was also in charge of all the dental officers in the camps.
Q Did you collaborate with Lolling, were you Lolling's deputy?
AAs I stated before, my main task was to work as a practicing dentist in the garrison of Oranienburg. If Lolling wanted to have some expert opinion on dental matters, he sent for me. That is how it happened that I did not enter the building of the WVHA at all on some days and even if I did enter the WVHA my presence there was only limited to Court No. II, Case No. 4.a short period of time.
This was already explained by the witness Ramler here on the witness stand, namely, that he saw me in my office very rarely or in the Amtsgruppe itself. Due to the difference in our field of tasks, and also due to my factual experience prior to my entering the WVHA, a dentist could never represent or deputize for a medical officer. That was the reason why I could never be Lolling's deputy. In my time, that is to say in the year 1944 when I was a member of Office D-III, Lolling, when he was absent, was represented by a camp physician, that is to say, by the camp physician of Sachsenhausen.
My entire activity as a dentist in Office D-III was very unsatisfactory. First of all it was due to the fact that practically speaking there wasn't anything to do. Then in addition to that there was the factor that I as a man who practiced did not like to work in an office anyway. A further reason was that in my activity there were also difficulties on the part of Lolling, and by that I mean official difficulties. The leading dentist in the agency of the Reich Physician SS and Police, repeatedly tried to facilitate my field of tasks and to create a better relationship between myself and Lolling. That was the reason why he had several conferences with Lolling. Unfortunately he did not succeed in doing so. That was the reason why immediately after my entry into the service I tried to get a job somewhere else as a dentist within the Waffen-SS.
Q Were your attempts to be transferred entirely from OfficeD-III, successful?
A Yes, they were successful. It must have been in the fall of 1944 when I received a notification of a transfer from the personnel section of the medical office, according to which I was being transferred to the Waffen-SS as a leading dentist.
Q Did that transfer actually take place?
A No, it didn't. I don't know why, and I never did find out anything about it. However, I have to assume that Lolling, so to speak, had made certain remarks in the medical office behind my back, and that Court No. II, Case No. 4.transfer was cancelled.