I enumerated those orders. I never saw an order by which it seemed that mistreatment of inmates must cease and that they must be treated well.
Q: My question was, did it not indicate to you that there was mistreatment, the fact that they did constantly issue these orders and regulations requiring good treatment?
A: No.
Q: You know, as a matter of fact, that prisoners were severely punished and mistreated, do you not?
A: I know that punishment in the camps meant that prisoners were being beaten.
Q: And all flogging punishments were submitted to your office before execution, is that not correct?
A: Flogging punishment had to be confirmed by Gluecks as Chief of Office Group D. He could ask his deputy to do it for him. I recall in this connection that the Chief of Office D-I, the central agency which was Liebehenschel, once was locked up by Himmler for six weeks, because he had approved a flogging punishment against an inmate where the offense had not been sufficiently severe to warrant a flogging punishment. I do not know the details of this case, but we were all rather surprised when Liebehenschel was put under arrest for six weeks.
Q: You are aware of the fact that an order was issued by your office on 11 April 1944 directing hanging of prisoners committing sabotage in armament works?
THE PRESIDENT: When you say "your office", do you mean of Amtsgruppe D?
MR. RUDOLPH: D-II
THE PRESIDENT: By D-II?
MR. RUDOLPH: That is correct, Your Honor.
A: I know that document, Mr. Prosecutor, but I don't quite know where it is in the document book. It was signed by Mauer I.V., which means as a deputy. He did not act as Office Chief D-II, but as deputy of the Office Chief. The file note shows that it was drawn up in D-I, the central office and written there. It is not an order, therefore, of D-II.
Q: But you were aware of the fact that such an order was issued?
A: No, D-II did not know anything about that order, because it did not receive a copy.
Q: Was not the whole subject of punishment discussed and discussed quite thoroughly at the conferences of the commanders which you attended?
A: I don't know, Mr. Prosecutor, because I said before that I never did take part at one single meeting of the commandants.
Q: Who did take part in these conferences?
A: I can only assume that all camp commandants attended, but I do not know whether these included the commandants from the occupied Eastern Territories. I do not think they were present. The Office Group Chiefs of D, took part, as I can judge, in these conferences, if they were interested, that is to say, if they had to report themselves.
Q: Did Pohl take part in them?
A: I don't know. I do not recall that I saw POhl in Oranienburg at a commandants' meeting, but I only saw these things from the fringes, because I did not have a list of participants and I simply saw the people by accident as it were.
Q: You are aware of the fact that Pister in his affidavit has stated that you were present at the commandant conference in Oranienburg, are you not?
A. I read that, and I possess an affidavit of Pister's where he says he might have made a mistake and that he is unable to say with certainty that I took part in the Commandants' meeting. It is a fact that I never took part.
Q. You know Pister, and he knows you, does he not?
A. I know Pister, and he knows me. In his affidavit Pister says--the one which he gave me, I mean, that it is possible that he made a mistake, and that he simply saw me in the office of my chief on the occasion of the Commandants' meeting, but outside the actual conference.
Q. Do you recall an incident where transports containing Free Polish workers were put in at a concentration camp, and the inmates were not released despite a request to your office that they be permitted to release them?
A. No, I know nothing about that incident.
Q. Yesterday upon the question of one of the judge's as to whether or not you were aware of the fact that there were young people in these concentration camps, you stated that it was a surprise to you. Will you tell me what the title "Special Camp for Young People--Mohringen" menus?
A. I know that there was a camp called Mohringen for the protection of young people which, as far as I know, was supplied with its guards by Office Group D in, I believe, 1942. The camp itself was under the Criminal Police, and as early as 1942 it was completely divorced from any task of Office Group D. How long before that it was part of the Inspectorate of the Concentration Camps I do not know.
Q. Is that item shown in your Document 597, can you tell me? I am sorry, I have it. On page 43 of the German there is an item 0320, Special Camp for Young People, Mohringen, under the heading of Allocation of Prisoners for Work, Office Group D. Will you explain that to me please?
A. That is the file plan of first October, 1942, and as I explained that, in 1942 this camp for Young People was given its guards by Office Group D, and that the jouveniles in the camp had to work. Office Group D and Office D-II were to consult and advise the camp commandant in this respect. Otherwise, as far as being made a part of the file plan, I did not draw it up, as I said. The same applies to the Special Camp Hinzert, where again Office Group D supplied the guards, but D-II had no influence on the organization. The inmates in turn were looked after by the Gestapo Office in Trier and allocated to their work there. We had no influence on them.
Q. How old were these inmates?
A. I never saw them. I don't know any lists about it, but as it was a camp for young People, they must have been juveniles.
Q. You also have in Item 420, Allocation of Prisoners for Work, Office Group C, that is construction work. You have item 0420, which indicates that young people were assigned to construction work?
A. Yes-- no, that does not mean that jouveniles were used for construction work, but that the expert who drew up the plan was of the opinion that this might happen. Whether it actually happened or not, I am doubtful about it. Anyway, I do not know it.
Q. You know, at least, there were children in concentration camps?
A. I know that in the camp for Young People which were not concentration camps, they were jouveniles. But that young people were in the concentration camps themselves, was not known to me. I said yesterday that I once saw a young Russian about 16 or 17 years of age, and he was working in a carpenter shop.
Q. Did the office W-II have a bread works at Auschwitz?
A. Office W-II in my opinion only had inmates in the Portland Cement factory which was near Auschwitz in Golesclian.
Q. Well, there is an item in your prepared summary here indicating that there are inmates assigned to W-II for the purpose of making bread at Auschwitz--pardon me, W-III. That is at 72-B. To whom did they sell that bread and for whom was it manufactured?
A. It was manufactured by Office W-III. To whom it was sold, I don't know.
Q. Well, do you know whether it went to the inmates of Auschwitz?
A. I don't know.
Q. Will you tell me who in W-II requested labor of your office?
A. W-II as it only had one allocation--only requested labor once. Who requested them, I don't know. Probably it was the Works Manager of Golleschau or Pohl ordered them direct.
Q. Would Dobbermann (?) have approved that work order, that request for inmates?
A. He could have done it, but I said before that we thought that the man in whose house the inmates worked that he requested them. In this case, the Works Manager of Golleschau.
Q. What inmates were assigned to Klein's office?
A. As far as I can tell, Klein was in charge of the evacuation homes; and there, in my opinion, the Sudelfeld home only had inmates. I said before that the manager of the Sudelfeld always passed on his wishes to Pohl. He did not have any contact with us, and then these wishes came from Pohl to us in the form of orders. As far as Wefelsburg is concerned, I remember Taubert and Bartels.
I think that Klein himself did not appear in these things at all. As to Castle Kranichfeld, I no longer remember it. I think it can only have been a very brief and a very small allocation of inmates. Anyway, I don't remember anything about it.
Q Will you tell me in what item you have set up the inmates assigned to bomb disposal?
A For bomb disposal, inmates could volunteer. They were promised that after a certain amount of work had been done in that respect, they would be released from concentration camps. Bomb disposal itself was not done by the inmates, but a technician who had been trained and who supervised the detachment of the inmates while they were doing their work.
Q How many persons were assigned to that voluntarily?
A I do not know.
Q Approximately?
A I don't know.
Q Do you consider that type of work the proper type to assign prisoners to?
THE PRESIDENT: That is one for the Tribunal, isn't it?
MR. RUDOLPH: I think so.
BY MR. RUDOLPH:
Q But you were aware of the fact that prisoners were assigned to bomb disposal?
A Yes.
Q Tell me whether the death sentences of Russians and Poles who may have volunteered for bomb disposal work, were they commuted?
A I cannot tell you anything about that at all, I don't know.
Q But you have indicated that they were offered release or amnesty in some form. Now, will you tell me whether that actually happened?
A. I said that I knew that these inmates, after having done this work for a certain period of time, were to be released. To carry out this was a matter for the commandants. How it was done in detail, I don't know.
Q. Was it possible for you to determine in anyway how many people were killed or died in concentration camps from the records that came in to you at regular intervals?
A. It would have been possible, yes.
Q. Did the death rate strike you as being unusual at any time?
A. The death rate figure did not strike me at all because I did not draw any conclusions from the figures; and therefore, could not form an impression.
Q. With respect to the watches that you had repaired at Sachsenhausen, what did you believe the source of those watches to be?
A. These watches had been confiscated, as I was told. It was confiscated enemy property. That is what I knew.
Q. Who told you that?
A. Maurer.
Q. And whom did he said they had been confiscated from?
A. All he said was that it was confiscated enemy property, and later on I believe he said that it came from Poles, Jews, and Russians.
Q. There was no doubt in your mind that it was private property?
A. No.
Q Was there any question in your mind as to the legality of the confiscation of private property?
A If I was told that it was confiscated enemy property, I had to assume that it was justified. I was reinforced in my assumption by a discussion between the interrogation officer and Dr. Sauter when I signed my affidavit. International points of law were discussed between these two, and they couldn't come to an agreement. They both thought they were right, but I am unable to say who was right.
THE PRESIDENT: Who was it that was talking to Dr. Sauter? Who was the other person?
A The interrogating officer, sir. I believe it was Mr. Ortner.
Q Who designated the labor allocation officers in the concentration camps?
A The labor allocation officers in concentration camps were appointed by the camp commandant, and I believe he usually took the former commandants of protective custody camps.
Q Who effected his transfer?
A The camp commandants took those men who had been in their camps and who appeared to be suitable. They could then request transfers from the personnel Main Department of Office Group D; and Maurer was always asked whether he was in agreement with that, and the transfer could then be carried out.
Q Well, then Office D II did have something to say about the makeup of the labor allocation officer personnel, did it not?
A D II did what the camp commandant wanted them to do. Several times labor allocation officers were substituted by other men without D II being asked or without D II having any influence on it because the camp commandants had to work with the man and not D II.
Q Did you issue any instructions to these labor allocations officers?
A Our entire correspondence was directed either to the commandant; or if it was a pure office matter, it went to the allocation department in the commandant's office, never to the allocation officer himself.
Q You testified that you did make trips, official trips, by means of a motor vehicle on different occasions?
A Yes.
Q In those instances the witness Rammler would have no knowledge where you went or when you went, would he?
A I did not have to report to Rammler; but with any trip I made I had, of course, to have an official pass, no matter what vehicle I would use for my trip. Up to the moment when Rammler appeared here, I, know not that Rammler kept the list of these vouchers and passes. Rammler, therefore, must have known when I went away in a car.
Q But you did not need a pass when you went to Sachsenhausen, did you?
A I did have to have an official permit as soon as I left the garrison Oranienburg, and Berlin was part of the Oranienburg garrison. If I left that area I had to have a pass.
Q What did your pass cover? Did it cover your specific location, or were you permitted to stop off at Dachau on your way to Sudelfeld or Buchenwald on your way to Berlin?
A The pass was a military pass which had to be drawn up for every single trip, and the locality to which I had to go was precisely mentioned. It was made out as a voucher for the controlling officers on route, whether, for instance, I was justified in using railroad transportation or going to a certain destination.
Q Well, then your trips to Buchenwald and Dachau were not accidental and they were anticipated?
A No, the trips to Dachau and Buchenwald were on my way. When I went to Auschwitz I passed through Buchenwald; and I passed Dachau when I went to Sudelfeld. For that reason I could easily stop somewhere on route.
Q In the case of your accompanying your wife to Auschwitz, that was not an official trip, was it?
A I was then given leave orders. That was a leave trip.
Q What did your pass specify there? That you could go to Auschwitz?
A That I was going to Koenigshuette and to Kattowitz.
A But you did stop off at Auschwitz on that trip?
A I left the railway at Koenigshuette and took a suburtan train to Auschwitz.
Q You know that crematoriums and gas chambers were installed in Auschwitz, did you not?
A I know that crematoria were in the concentration camps. Whether or how gas chambers were established in Auschwitz I do not know.
Q Isn't it possible that the request to build additional gas ovens for baking bread at Auschwitz was actually a camouflage for the making of these gas chambers?
A I don't know that. People were building all the time in Auschwitz, I believe in Auschwitz alone there were several thousands of inmates working on construction projects. As far as I know, the camp was to be sufficiently large for two hundred thousand men. What was built there I do not know. I know that a great deal was being built there all the time.
Q Well, you know new that gas ovens were built?
A Hoess and other witnesses who had been in Auschwitz have been in Auschwitz have mentioned this, that gas chambers were there. Therefore, they must have been constructed.
Q They were constructed by inmates that you assigned weren't they?
A I don't know. There were Polish civilian workers in Auschwitz who were working with the building management as free workers. I don't know what they built.
Q You were examined by an SS physician at the time of your promotion to an officer in the SS, were you not?
A Me? No.
Q You stated, I believe that you were examined by a physician prior to getting your commission, after you were in D II.
A I was an officer of the army on leave; and before I was drafted into the Waffen SS I had the usual medical examination. The translation just now said, "When you were promoted." That is why I give this reply.
Q You also stated that at the time you applied for your first job with the SS you were told that had you been in the Waffen SS you would never have been discharged from the army. Is that correct?
A I'm afraid I didn't understand your question.
Q Did or did you not state that when you were interviewed for your first job by the SS Veterans' Administration you were told that had you been in the Waffen SS and sustained the wound that you did sustain you would not have been discharged from the army?
A What I said was that the welfare officer of the SS told me that with the Waffen SS I would not have been discharged with a wound of that sort, and I was told that I would have had to serve on the barracks square as a reserve trainee, whereas the Wehrmacht acted more generously.
Q I think you left a few missimpressions with the Court yesterday concerning your connection with Auschwitz. To begin with, wasn't the number of Jews assigned to Auschwitz from Hungary two hundred thousand rather than one hundred thousand?
A During the first conference of at the time of the first information that Jews would come from Hungary, the figure mentioned was one hundred thousand. They were supposed to be Jews who had been members of building batallions. Later on it was said that it might be more.
Q Did't you state on any occasion that the figure was between 150,000 and 200,000?
A Later on it was stated that more than 100,000 would come, yes; and then the figure of between 150,000 to 200,000 was mentioned.
Q You stated in interrogations that it was between 150,000 and 200,000?
AAt first it was 100,000, and later on it was mentioned that it was more.
Q You also created the impression that you heard about the arrival of Jews for the first time when Gluecks informed you of the gassings. Gluecks informed you in June or July, didn't he?
A The exact date is not quite clear to me any more; but I always assumed, until now that this Hungarian action started in June. However from the documents I see that it started as early as May. That is why I said yesterday it must have been May or June.
Q You said yesterday June or July. Now you have already stated on a previous occasion that Maurer informed you in May that they were coming, didn't you?
A I said yesterday it must have been May or June.
Q Well, didn't you on a previous occasion say that you were first informed of this whole action by Maurer?
A No, I said that Gluecks was the first one to inform me.
A.- No, I said that Gluecks was the first one to inform me.
Mr. RUDOLPH: I would like to check a document for a moment, if the Court please.
THE PRESIDENT: He said May or June, and he said Gluecks.
Mr. RUDOLPH: Yes, but I have another document in mind, and he said something else.
THE PRESIDENT: You asked him what he said yesterday, I remember that.
Mr. RUDOLPH: Yes, and then I asked him if one some previous occasion he had said something else.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: While you are looking for your document let me ask a question.
BY JUDGE PHILLIPS:
Q.- Burger is in prison here in Nurnberg now, is he not?
A.- Burger? Yes, he is in prison here.
Q.- With what Amtsgruppe of the WVHA was he assigned?
A.- He was Chief of Office D-IV.
Q.- For how long was he chief of Office D-IV?
A.- From the middle of 1943 until the collapse.
Q.- Maurer is also in prison here now?
A.- Yes, sir.
Q.-When was he placed in prison?
A.- That must have been in March, March of this year, I believe.
Q.- Have you conferred with him since he has been in jail?
A.- No, sir; I have not.
Q.- You have had no opportunity to communicate with him in any way about the testimony in this case?
A.- No, sir.
Q.- Do you know under what circumstances Maurer was arrested?
A.- Yes, I do.
Q.- How did he happen to be arrested?
A.- Burger, when we were arraigned before this Tribunal, had entered the courtroom and had been identified, and as a result of that Maurer was also arrested.
Q.- Burger was identified first?
A.- Yes, Your Honor.
Q.- But both of them were arrested after this case began, therefore they are not on trial, is that correct?
A.- Yes, Your Honor.
Q.- This trial had already begun by the arraignment, bill of indictment had been served, and all before either one of them was placed in custody?
A.- Yes, quite.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: That is all.
BY MR. RUDOLPH:
Q.- Do you recall an interrogation by Alfred Buch on the 4th of October 1946?
A.- I was interrogated about twenty times. When these various interrogations happened, I don't remember.
Q.- Will you take my word that you were interrogated by Alfred Buch on the 4th of October?
A.- Perhaps I may have a look at the document.
Q.- Do you recall the interrogation?
A.- Yes, I do.
Q.- I call your attention to the following answer made by you in response to this question. I want you specifically to note there is nothing in here that could have been suggested by the interrogator, that all the information was volunteered by you.
"Q.- But you were aware of the origin of these watches and how the camps Auschwitz and Lublin obtained them?
"A.- The explanation given to me was to the effect that these watches were confiscated by the Reich from Jews, Poles, Russians. I was in charge of this watch business until the end of 1943 when it was passed on to another, In 1943 Maurer appointed me his deputy, saying that a Fuehrer had to be appointed in every office as deputy for the office chief, someone versed in all matters pertaining to his sphere of work.
In May or June 1944 I was informed by Maurer that a large number of Jews were expected from Hungary. The camp Auschwitz was to receive all Jews. Their number was given as one hundred and fifty to two hundred thousand, and I was ordered to pass these prisoners on immediately to the firms." Do you deny making that answer?
A.- No. When--
Q.- You also stated in that interrogation, and in every subsequent interrogation, that the only reason you asked to be relieved of this assignment was because of the great amount of work that you had, isn't that true?
A. That was the reason I pretended. I said here that I did not wish to be connected with these things.
Q.- But you had an opportunity to make that statement on previous occasions, and the first time you ever made it was on the witness stand yesterday, is it not?
A.- No.
THE PRESIDENT: Is this impeachment?
MR. RUDOLPH: Yes.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, it is certainly impeachment on a collateral or immaterial matter, whether Gluecks told him in May or June, and whether or not he -
MR. RUDOLPH: No, I think he tried to create the impression yesterday your Honor, as soon as he heard about - or at least this is the impression I got - as soon as he heard these Jews were being sent to Auschwitz for extermination he tried to do everything he could to reduce the number who would be exterminated by immediately assigning them to various industrial firms and various work assignments.
THE PRESIDENT: Yes.
MR. RUDOLPH: And actually that is not the case, because this clearly shows he was ordered by Maurer, before he was even aware of the fact that they were to be exterminated, to find places for one hundred and fifty to two hundred thousand Jews who were expected at Auschwitz.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, it is not entirely clear to me, but be ahead and develop it.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: What reason does he assign in the interrogation to his side-stepping the duty which would have involved recording the number of deaths at Auschwitz?
MR. RUDOLPH: The reason assigned is given as follows: "I asked Gluecks to assign this job to some other member of our office as I was buried in work. I was already at work from 8:00 a.m. to 8:00 p.m.", and that is the only reason assigned in this interrogation or any other interrogation that we have from the Defendant Sommer.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: Isn't that what he said on the witness stand also?
MR. RUDOLPH: Yes, he said that, Your Honor, but he didn't say anything about receiving the order from Maurer to find these jobs, which I think is quite important from the time angle. It puts him in a different light if he establishes that he did this very suddenly because of the plight of the Jews, and not because of orders from Maurer.
Q.- (By Mr. Rudolph) Witness, didn't you think it a bit unusual, in view of the excellent food conditions that you have described, that there would be a black market in meatballs made of horse meat at Sachsenhausen?
A.- Black market? What black market? By black market you mean in Germany certain things. If I sell meatballs in a cafeteria to those who are able to buy things in a cafeteria, this is not black market. If I eat no meat dishes day after day, I am only too glad to get meat suddenly, no matter what sort of meat it is, and that became possible by selling meatballs in the cafeteria. That was the only way why they could take these high prices which I mentioned yesterday, That has nothing to do with the food angle.
Q.- But you cited that as an example of corruption going on in the canteens in your interrogation?
A.- Yes.
Q.- Doesn't that indicate to you that there was something wrong with the food?
A.- No, all the fuss is that something was wrong with the decency and honor of the camp commandants.
Q.- You stated that Maurer was an easy man to get along with as long as you did your work in the manner you were supposed to.
A.- Yes.
Q.- And you did your work as ordered, did you not?
A.- Yes.
Q.- And when he ordered you to find jobs for these one hundred and fifty to two hundred thousand jews coming from Hungary, you complied with his order, did you not, yes or no?
A.- Maurer told me at the time -
Q.- I asked you -
A.- Yes, I followed that order.
THE PRESIDENT: We didn't hear it.
A.- Yes, I followed that order.
THE PRESIDENT: There was something after that, zweihunderstausend.
THE INTERPRETER: Tell him to repeat.
A.- What I said was I followed that order not only for 200,000, but in my opinion there were for more.
Mr. RUDOLPH: I have no further questions at this time, if it please the Tribunal.
Court No. II, Case No. 4.
THE PRESIDENT: Any other questions by Defense Counsel? Cross examinations? All right; re-direct, then?
RE-DIRECT EXAMINATION BY DR. BELZER (Counsel for defendant Sommer):
Q Witness, to clear up some things I want to put a few brief questions to you. When you were cross-examined by the Prosecution, reference was made to labor allocation of concentration camp inmates on bomb-disposal work. I would like to ask you who issued the requests to transfer concentration camp inmates for bomb-disposal?
A The basic order was issued by Goering. It concerned not only inmates of concentration camps but inmates also of all penal institutions and concentration camps. The request came from the local police or ARP authorities.
Q Who carried out the allocation?
A The police requested then and the camp commandant transferred them.
Q Office D-2 or Office Group D, in other words, had nothing to do with that type of allocation?
AAfterwards, after the transfer was carried out they were informed.
Q In order to clear up the point as to when you heard first of the arrival of Hungarian Jews, I seem to remember that on direct examination, you said yesterday that you heard first through Maurer of the arrival of these Jews who had been working in the rear area on building work.
But, independent of that, you were told later by Gluecks of the extermination of Jews?
A Yes.
THE PRESIDENT: We understand that; we heard it yesterday and we are not in any doubt as to what he said.
Q Now, as for the reason why you turned down Gluecks to keep a list of the figures, certainly the truth is that both in your first Court No. II, Case No. 4.interrogation as well as on direct examination yesterday you were examined first of all with respect to what reason you had given Gluecks?
A Yes.
Q And I put it to you that surely that was not a particularly convincing reason because work had not been too much-
THE PRESIDENT: We heard all this, and we have good memories. I think we can repeat the answers to your question now in the same words that the witness used...so don't spend any time on it.
Q I then have no further questions to put to this witness, although I would like -
RE-CROSS EXAMINATION BY MR. RUDOLPH:
Q How frequently did you attend meetings of the Labor Allocation officers?
AAs I remember it, there were three such meetings in the three years, and I attended one when it had reached the second day and the actual conference was over, and the Buna works were being inspected.
Q What did you prepare for the office in connection with those meetings, for the person who represented the office?
A The conference was being directed regularly by Maurer, and I don't think any preparations were necessary; Maurer knew his stuff so well that he had all the necessary questions at his fingertips.
Q Did he report to you in any way as to what transpired after the meetings?
A I was present at two conferences but not at the other one.
Q I say: did he ever make a report or indicate to you what had transpired at the meetings?
A No.
Q Did you ever ask to be transferred from your assignment in D-2? Did you ever ask for front-duty or in any way request a change in your assignment?
Court No. II, Case No. 4.
A Mr. Prosecutor, I had taken part in two campaigns. I was badly wounded in France. I was no longer fit for military service. I could not be transferred to the front. In 1943 I attempted to leave D-2; I wanted to work as a civilian employee with the firm. But Maurer turned me down flat, pointing out that there was a war on and everybody had to do his duty wherever he was.
Q Just answer the question I put to you: Did you ever ask for front-duty or any other type of assignment as an SS officer than what you did at D-2?
A Yes.
Q I am not referring to the time you wanted a civilian job. I am referring to some other type, other than that.
A I was a soldier, Mr. Prosecutor, as I was before; and I had to do my duty where I was.
THE PRESIDENT: Just answer the question. Did you ever ask to be transferred from D-2? Yes or no.
WITNESS: Apart from 1943--no.
MR. RUDOLPH: I have no further questions.
THE PRESIDENT: No further questions of this witness by any counsel?
The Court will be in recess, and during the recess the Marshal will remove this witness and produce the next witness ready to testify.
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal will recess for fifteen minutes.
(A recess was taken.)