That is to say, the labor assignment for the WVHA, seen from my point of view, was very uninteresting. That is the reason why I cannot tell you in detail who applied for those details.
MR. RUDOLPH: I think that covers it fairly well, your Honor.
Q (By Mr. Rudolph) I would like to skip to your Page 10 of the exhibit, Item 14 KL D-II/04/C, allocation of prisoners to Office Group C, special measures A. What does the term, "special measures" mean as used there?
A By special measures they mean the special construction measures carried out by Kammler. That is to say, the transfer and evacuation of the German industry subterraneously. Those are the special measures described here. Unfortunately and erroneously they were taken into Amtsgruppe C, because organizationally they could only fit into that framework. Kammler, according to my opinion, in those matters was subordinate to the Reich Ministry Speer.
Q Let us skip to Page 12 of your copy, the Item 14 KL D-II/05, allocation of prisoners to Office W-I Dest, for the present not to be further filed 14 KL D-II/13. Will you please summarize in the way you did with respect to Amtsgruppe C, the use of labor made by Amtsgruppe W, and break it down into offices as best you can?
A Under that file note all the details for Office W-I were carried, which according to our opinion, could not be used for armament purposes. Here also, as with all the other W enterprises for DEST, economic enterprise means that the manager of the workshop was over the commander, and who, according to Pohl, was to relieve the work managers of their work.
Office W-II, according to this file chart, only had one labor assignment unit at Golleschau.
Office W-III had meat factories and bakeries where inmates were working, and they worked on supplying the army and picked details of concentration camps. Office W-IV, those were the wood factories. This applies to them also. The same goes for Office W-V and W-VI. Office W-VII never did employ inmates, and Office W-VIII was described by me before. Whether labor assignment was carried out on the Oberschloss Kranichfels I don't know if there were any labor inmates there than for only a short period of time. Does that answer your question, Mr. Prosecutor?
Q No it does not. Will you tell me whether Mummenthey had knowledge, whether Mummenthey approved the labor requisitions for Amt W-I, and how much labor he required for his purposes?
A If Mummenthey considered orders to his work managers they should apply for inmates or not, I don't know. The applications came from the factory managements through the camp commander as business manager, and according to my opinion, Mummenthey only interpolated when the inmates applied for by the business manager had been disapproved by us or by the camp commandants. That inmates were used he knew.
Q You worked for Mummenthey for some considerable time.
A Yes, for a year.
Q As a matter of fact he suggested that you step into Amtsgruppe D-II for the purpose of taking care of the interests of W-I, did he not?
A Yes, when he told me that Maurer had requested me, there was a plan to dissolve the department labor assignment, and Mummenthey told me if the labor goes to D-II it will be wonderful because then you will be able to represent our interests to be sure with reference to the elimination of the difficulties which arose constantly between the commandanteers and our work management, that is correct.
Q Then you know for a fact that Mummenthey was aware of the fact that they were using prisoner inmates and the number that were used?
A Yes, of course.
Q And how many inmates was W-I assigned?
A Mr. Prosecutor, the number cannot possibly be told directly. I assume that with all the tasks there were from between fifteen to eighteen thousand of them.
Q.- And you yourself were familiar with the labor conditions and living conditions of these inmates, were you not?
A.- With reference to all the plants mentioned here, I only knew the large brick works at Oranienburg and the stone plant, and I knew the conditions there as far as I saw them. As far as other ones were concerned, I knew that they were brick factories and other things, and granite plants, where the inmates were being employed.
Q.- Will you tell us what you observed at the various plants of the W-I that you actually did have an opportunity to inspect or examine?
A.- As I stated before, I know the brick works in Oranienburg, and the stone works in Oranienburg, I have no possibility to compare other granite works with the ones I knew, or other brick works with the ones I knew. But I did not see anything at all which would make us conclude that the inmates were working particularly hard or unhumanely.
Q.- What did the inmates have to do?
A.- They had to carry out those tasks which are normally carried out in a stone quarry or in a brick factory. First of all, the clay itself was prepared and it was finished with the bricks.
Q.- Will you tell us what the nature of the work is, please. You have an idea of what it was. You were there; don't just generalize about the type of work they do in a stone quarry. Try to describe what they did.
A.- I went through that large hall in the brick factory -
JUDGE MUSMANNO: Mr. Rudolph, now, he has explained that it is a stone quarry and a brick factory. He has told about the preparation of the clay, and we have a general idea of what is done in a stone quarry. Now, to ask him to give us more in detail what is done, I don't understand why.
Mr. RUDOLPH: Well, according to the version that he has given, Your Honor, one would think that a concentration camp was a very pleasant place --
JUDGE MUSMANNO: But all right! Ask him a specific question: how many tons do they carry on their back? Or did you see them being without food or without water? Direct his attention to something specific. But just to say: tell us now what they do in a stone quarry seems to me opening a door to a lot of unnecessary monotonous details.
BY MR. RUDOLPH:
Q.- What type of labor did these particular inmates perform in the stone quarry?
A.- The inmates broke up the various sheets of stones and they cut the stone in those large cutting halls. The number of inmates in the stone quarries was rather small, and the number of the inmates in the stone halls was rather large.
Q.- And did they carry the broken stone up to any particular point after breaking it?
A.- I only know the quarry in Gross-Rosen. There were the rails there; they had iron towers; and they had certain little wagons running up and down. And that is the way they carried those stones around.
Q.- Who pulled the wagons?
A.- Nobody pulled the wagons: they were pulled; they were operated on machines.
Q.- How heavy were the rocks that they had to lift into the wagons?
A.- Only a man who is an expert in quarry questions can answer you that. I don't know that, Mr. Prosecutor.
Q.- Did they appear to be very heavy, or did they appear to be very light?
A.- Well, as it dealt with stone it probably was heavy. The machine didn't mind that a bit, I presume.
Q.- How far did they have to carry them to the machine?
A.- According to my recollection, they were not carried at all. But those cranes led right across the quarry and, as far as I can recall, it went straight down into the quarry.
The stone was attached to it; the cable went up again, and the crane transferred it into the little wagon.
Q.- How long did they work a day?
A.- You are talking about the inmates, aren't you, Mr. Prosecutor?
The inmates were to work eleven hours a day. This did not work out in winter in open quarries because it became dark early and the inmates had to be transported to the camp in daylight, because there was a danger of escape. That was the reason why the work amounted to approximately eleven hours in summer and in winter it was much shorter -- and that was after the total war was declared in 1943.
In all the plants the work was to amount to approximately eleven hours. However, it was directed by the conditions in the factory, really. I know that it varied between eight and eleven hours, depending on the work and the orders in that factory.
Q.- Were these billets heated in the winter time?
A.- In the concentration camp of Sachsenhausen, when I visited the German armament factories, all year long I saw inmates who were splitting wood and piling the wood, and there was a whole hall full of coal. I have to presume that the billets were heated in the winter.
Q.- You don't know whether these billets received that coal and coke or not? You don't know where they went, of your own knowledge?
A.- No, I don't.
Q.- How much did these laborers receive at -- How much did these laborers receive to eat a day at these stone quarries?
A.- It seemed -- theoretically speaking; I didn't see that myself -the same food which they were to receive. They received the normal food and the heavy worker's rations, as had been directed, and that was the same food which the German civilian worker was receiving with which he simply had to do.
Q.- What was the mortality rate of prisoners assigned to W-I?
A.- I told you yesterday already that in those particular synopses concerning the labor assignment all the movements in the camps could be seen. On page 1 of that synopsis, the deaths had to be entered. From those figures it could not be seen what the inmate died of, where they died, and what factory they were with before. That was unknown to me. We never received the name or the report of the death, and, according to our knowledge, they went to the leading physician, Dr. Lolling.
Q.- But you worked at W-I for the better part of a year, and you have knowledge of that from your own personal knowledge. Now, will you tell us what the mortality rate was at W-I?
A.- I don't know that because the plant manager was not told by the commander what the death rate was. I stated before that we had difficulties quite often because the inmates were transferred once in a while for others, and, therefore, they would return after a few weeks to their own work. And, partly, they were transferred to other managements. That is the only reason why the work manager could not have any insight into the death rates, and, therefore, we couldn't either.
Q.- But you did know that there were a great many who did die in the course of their work from the fact that you had to constantly obtain new sources of labor. Is that not correct?
A.- The number of the inmates in the concentration camps always increased from May, 1942, when, according to my knowledge, there were approximately 50,000 inmates in the concentration camps, they increased to 700,000 in December 1944 -- from 50,000 to 700,000.
Q.- Witness, I am speaking of W-I during the period that you were there -- not during 1944, or what happened later. Will you try to answer the question, please?
A.- I already told you before that the tasks of office inmates and, later on, the Labor assignment of the inmates -- there were difficulties between the work managements and the commandanturs which could not be dealt with locally, and they had to be eliminated.
As long as the number of inmates which could be used for work was placed at our disposal by the commandanturs, there were no difficulties. That the inmates themselves changed, I told you before. They returned after a few weeks or after a few months. Therefore, it could not be seen if inmates had died or if they had been transferred to another camp -- or simply why they had not returned to their work.
Q.- You have testified about penal commandos having existed at the camps. The phrase you used was that they were "drilled to death through penal commandos." Will you explain what you mean by that phrase: drilled to death through these penal commandos"?
A.- On the tenth of January, 1947, I was interrogated. In the course of the interrogation -- which was interrupted repeatedly by the interrogator by telling me that we don't have to write it down; that we can discuss the thing -- the man told me that Nummenthey had testified that there were quite a few death cases in connection with quarries, and that people were worked to death there. And he knew that I was just a "small man" and still he expected me to know that thing and confirm that fact. I told him at the time I didn't know anything about it, but I knew from things which I had been told about the punative details in my internment time, namely, that the punative details had not been dissolved in many camps and that they still existed.
That is how this statement came about. I added in the affidavit that I had found out about it today.
Q.- But you indicated that you were aware of the fact that they existed, and you were under the impression that they had been eliminated. Will you tell me what you understood about their existence -- who told you -- and give us briefly some idea of what the phrase "drilling to death" means?
A.- The term "worked to death" was not originated by me, but was originated by the examiner. I stated explicitly that the punative details according to my recollection, had been dissolved in the spring of 1943; that all the concentration camps had reported the execution of the dissolution, and that while I was interned I found out from an inmate that, for instance, in Neuengamme there was a punative detail up to the very end, and that inmate had told me when I asked him why he was in the punative detail that he was an inmate who was not liked at all, and that one wanted to actually eliminate him, work him to death in there. That is the only knowledge I know about a punative detail.
Q.- What kind of punishment was inflicted on the inmate assigned to these punative details?
A.- The punative details in itself was a punishment which was contained in the camp regulation, According to my opinion and according to my assumption, it consisted of the fact that inmates had to carry out a physical, difficult work, and that he was being kept in a special, inclosed barrack within the camp, and, therefore, he had no contact with the other inmates. That was what one called "an increased arrest, including work" in the army.
THE PRESIDENT: We will recess until one forty-five.
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal will recess until one forty-five.
(A recess was taken until 1345 hours.)
AFTERNOON SESSION (The hearing reconvened at 1400 hours, July 2, 1947)
THE MARSHAL: Take your seats, please.
The Tribunal is again in session.
KARL SOMMER - Resumed CROSS-EXAMINATION (Continued) BY DR. RUDOLPH:
Q: By whom was the original order establishing penal commandos issued?
A: As far as I can remember, the order about penal commandos was part of the camp order for concentration camps, which was issued by Himmler in 1938.
Q: Your office had nothing to do with it in any way?
A: With the issuing of the order? Certainly not. I recall that Maurer at that time caused the penal companies to be dissolved.
Q: You have emphasized frequently the issuance of orders by your office at various places to be kind to the prisoners and treat them in a human fashion. Does not the fact that such orders were issued indicate to you that there was something wrong with the treatment of the prisoners?
Q: Do you mean the dissolution of the penal company, Sir?
A: Not at all. You have said several times in the course of your direct examination that the prisoners were treated very well and that there were orders issued on many occasions reminding the concentration camp commandants to see that the prisoners were treated well and that certain mistreatment should cease. My question is, does not the fact that such orders were issued clearly indicate that there was mistreatment of prisoners and not on an exceptional scale, but on a general scale?
A: I stated, Mr. Prosecutor, that the orders which I saw and which dealt with the treatment of inmates fitted all of them and concerned measures which entailed a decent treatment of the inmates.
I enumerated those orders. I never saw an order by which it seemed that mistreatment of inmates must cease and that they must be treated well.
Q: My question was, did it not indicate to you that there was mistreatment, the fact that they did constantly issue these orders and regulations requiring good treatment?
A: No.
Q: You know, as a matter of fact, that prisoners were severely punished and mistreated, do you not?
A: I know that punishment in the camps meant that prisoners were being beaten.
Q: And all flogging punishments were submitted to your office before execution, is that not correct?
A: Flogging punishment had to be confirmed by Gluecks as Chief of Office Group D. He could ask his deputy to do it for him. I recall in this connection that the Chief of Office D-I, the central agency which was Liebehenschel, once was locked up by Himmler for six weeks, because he had approved a flogging punishment against an inmate where the offense had not been sufficiently severe to warrant a flogging punishment. I do not know the details of this case, but we were all rather surprised when Liebehenschel was put under arrest for six weeks.
Q: You are aware of the fact that an order was issued by your office on 11 April 1944 directing hanging of prisoners committing sabotage in armament works?
THE PRESIDENT: When you say "your office", do you mean of Amtsgruppe D?
MR. RUDOLPH: D-II
THE PRESIDENT: By D-II?
MR. RUDOLPH: That is correct, Your Honor.
A: I know that document, Mr. Prosecutor, but I don't quite know where it is in the document book. It was signed by Mauer I.V., which means as a deputy. He did not act as Office Chief D-II, but as deputy of the Office Chief. The file note shows that it was drawn up in D-I, the central office and written there. It is not an order, therefore, of D-II.
Q: But you were aware of the fact that such an order was issued?
A: No, D-II did not know anything about that order, because it did not receive a copy.
Q: Was not the whole subject of punishment discussed and discussed quite thoroughly at the conferences of the commanders which you attended?
A: I don't know, Mr. Prosecutor, because I said before that I never did take part at one single meeting of the commandants.
Q: Who did take part in these conferences?
A: I can only assume that all camp commandants attended, but I do not know whether these included the commandants from the occupied Eastern Territories. I do not think they were present. The Office Group Chiefs of D, took part, as I can judge, in these conferences, if they were interested, that is to say, if they had to report themselves.
Q: Did Pohl take part in them?
A: I don't know. I do not recall that I saw POhl in Oranienburg at a commandants' meeting, but I only saw these things from the fringes, because I did not have a list of participants and I simply saw the people by accident as it were.
Q: You are aware of the fact that Pister in his affidavit has stated that you were present at the commandant conference in Oranienburg, are you not?
A. I read that, and I possess an affidavit of Pister's where he says he might have made a mistake and that he is unable to say with certainty that I took part in the Commandants' meeting. It is a fact that I never took part.
Q. You know Pister, and he knows you, does he not?
A. I know Pister, and he knows me. In his affidavit Pister says--the one which he gave me, I mean, that it is possible that he made a mistake, and that he simply saw me in the office of my chief on the occasion of the Commandants' meeting, but outside the actual conference.
Q. Do you recall an incident where transports containing Free Polish workers were put in at a concentration camp, and the inmates were not released despite a request to your office that they be permitted to release them?
A. No, I know nothing about that incident.
Q. Yesterday upon the question of one of the judge's as to whether or not you were aware of the fact that there were young people in these concentration camps, you stated that it was a surprise to you. Will you tell me what the title "Special Camp for Young People--Mohringen" menus?
A. I know that there was a camp called Mohringen for the protection of young people which, as far as I know, was supplied with its guards by Office Group D in, I believe, 1942. The camp itself was under the Criminal Police, and as early as 1942 it was completely divorced from any task of Office Group D. How long before that it was part of the Inspectorate of the Concentration Camps I do not know.
Q. Is that item shown in your Document 597, can you tell me? I am sorry, I have it. On page 43 of the German there is an item 0320, Special Camp for Young People, Mohringen, under the heading of Allocation of Prisoners for Work, Office Group D. Will you explain that to me please?
A. That is the file plan of first October, 1942, and as I explained that, in 1942 this camp for Young People was given its guards by Office Group D, and that the jouveniles in the camp had to work. Office Group D and Office D-II were to consult and advise the camp commandant in this respect. Otherwise, as far as being made a part of the file plan, I did not draw it up, as I said. The same applies to the Special Camp Hinzert, where again Office Group D supplied the guards, but D-II had no influence on the organization. The inmates in turn were looked after by the Gestapo Office in Trier and allocated to their work there. We had no influence on them.
Q. How old were these inmates?
A. I never saw them. I don't know any lists about it, but as it was a camp for young People, they must have been juveniles.
Q. You also have in Item 420, Allocation of Prisoners for Work, Office Group C, that is construction work. You have item 0420, which indicates that young people were assigned to construction work?
A. Yes-- no, that does not mean that jouveniles were used for construction work, but that the expert who drew up the plan was of the opinion that this might happen. Whether it actually happened or not, I am doubtful about it. Anyway, I do not know it.
Q. You know, at least, there were children in concentration camps?
A. I know that in the camp for Young People which were not concentration camps, they were jouveniles. But that young people were in the concentration camps themselves, was not known to me. I said yesterday that I once saw a young Russian about 16 or 17 years of age, and he was working in a carpenter shop.
Q. Did the office W-II have a bread works at Auschwitz?
A. Office W-II in my opinion only had inmates in the Portland Cement factory which was near Auschwitz in Golesclian.
Q. Well, there is an item in your prepared summary here indicating that there are inmates assigned to W-II for the purpose of making bread at Auschwitz--pardon me, W-III. That is at 72-B. To whom did they sell that bread and for whom was it manufactured?
A. It was manufactured by Office W-III. To whom it was sold, I don't know.
Q. Well, do you know whether it went to the inmates of Auschwitz?
A. I don't know.
Q. Will you tell me who in W-II requested labor of your office?
A. W-II as it only had one allocation--only requested labor once. Who requested them, I don't know. Probably it was the Works Manager of Golleschau or Pohl ordered them direct.
Q. Would Dobbermann (?) have approved that work order, that request for inmates?
A. He could have done it, but I said before that we thought that the man in whose house the inmates worked that he requested them. In this case, the Works Manager of Golleschau.
Q. What inmates were assigned to Klein's office?
A. As far as I can tell, Klein was in charge of the evacuation homes; and there, in my opinion, the Sudelfeld home only had inmates. I said before that the manager of the Sudelfeld always passed on his wishes to Pohl. He did not have any contact with us, and then these wishes came from Pohl to us in the form of orders. As far as Wefelsburg is concerned, I remember Taubert and Bartels.
I think that Klein himself did not appear in these things at all. As to Castle Kranichfeld, I no longer remember it. I think it can only have been a very brief and a very small allocation of inmates. Anyway, I don't remember anything about it.
Q Will you tell me in what item you have set up the inmates assigned to bomb disposal?
A For bomb disposal, inmates could volunteer. They were promised that after a certain amount of work had been done in that respect, they would be released from concentration camps. Bomb disposal itself was not done by the inmates, but a technician who had been trained and who supervised the detachment of the inmates while they were doing their work.
Q How many persons were assigned to that voluntarily?
A I do not know.
Q Approximately?
A I don't know.
Q Do you consider that type of work the proper type to assign prisoners to?
THE PRESIDENT: That is one for the Tribunal, isn't it?
MR. RUDOLPH: I think so.
BY MR. RUDOLPH:
Q But you were aware of the fact that prisoners were assigned to bomb disposal?
A Yes.
Q Tell me whether the death sentences of Russians and Poles who may have volunteered for bomb disposal work, were they commuted?
A I cannot tell you anything about that at all, I don't know.
Q But you have indicated that they were offered release or amnesty in some form. Now, will you tell me whether that actually happened?
A. I said that I knew that these inmates, after having done this work for a certain period of time, were to be released. To carry out this was a matter for the commandants. How it was done in detail, I don't know.
Q. Was it possible for you to determine in anyway how many people were killed or died in concentration camps from the records that came in to you at regular intervals?
A. It would have been possible, yes.
Q. Did the death rate strike you as being unusual at any time?
A. The death rate figure did not strike me at all because I did not draw any conclusions from the figures; and therefore, could not form an impression.
Q. With respect to the watches that you had repaired at Sachsenhausen, what did you believe the source of those watches to be?
A. These watches had been confiscated, as I was told. It was confiscated enemy property. That is what I knew.
Q. Who told you that?
A. Maurer.
Q. And whom did he said they had been confiscated from?
A. All he said was that it was confiscated enemy property, and later on I believe he said that it came from Poles, Jews, and Russians.
Q. There was no doubt in your mind that it was private property?
A. No.
Q Was there any question in your mind as to the legality of the confiscation of private property?
A If I was told that it was confiscated enemy property, I had to assume that it was justified. I was reinforced in my assumption by a discussion between the interrogation officer and Dr. Sauter when I signed my affidavit. International points of law were discussed between these two, and they couldn't come to an agreement. They both thought they were right, but I am unable to say who was right.
THE PRESIDENT: Who was it that was talking to Dr. Sauter? Who was the other person?
A The interrogating officer, sir. I believe it was Mr. Ortner.
Q Who designated the labor allocation officers in the concentration camps?
A The labor allocation officers in concentration camps were appointed by the camp commandant, and I believe he usually took the former commandants of protective custody camps.
Q Who effected his transfer?
A The camp commandants took those men who had been in their camps and who appeared to be suitable. They could then request transfers from the personnel Main Department of Office Group D; and Maurer was always asked whether he was in agreement with that, and the transfer could then be carried out.
Q Well, then Office D II did have something to say about the makeup of the labor allocation officer personnel, did it not?
A D II did what the camp commandant wanted them to do. Several times labor allocation officers were substituted by other men without D II being asked or without D II having any influence on it because the camp commandants had to work with the man and not D II.
Q Did you issue any instructions to these labor allocations officers?
A Our entire correspondence was directed either to the commandant; or if it was a pure office matter, it went to the allocation department in the commandant's office, never to the allocation officer himself.
Q You testified that you did make trips, official trips, by means of a motor vehicle on different occasions?
A Yes.
Q In those instances the witness Rammler would have no knowledge where you went or when you went, would he?
A I did not have to report to Rammler; but with any trip I made I had, of course, to have an official pass, no matter what vehicle I would use for my trip. Up to the moment when Rammler appeared here, I, know not that Rammler kept the list of these vouchers and passes. Rammler, therefore, must have known when I went away in a car.
Q But you did not need a pass when you went to Sachsenhausen, did you?
A I did have to have an official permit as soon as I left the garrison Oranienburg, and Berlin was part of the Oranienburg garrison. If I left that area I had to have a pass.
Q What did your pass cover? Did it cover your specific location, or were you permitted to stop off at Dachau on your way to Sudelfeld or Buchenwald on your way to Berlin?
A The pass was a military pass which had to be drawn up for every single trip, and the locality to which I had to go was precisely mentioned. It was made out as a voucher for the controlling officers on route, whether, for instance, I was justified in using railroad transportation or going to a certain destination.
Q Well, then your trips to Buchenwald and Dachau were not accidental and they were anticipated?
A No, the trips to Dachau and Buchenwald were on my way. When I went to Auschwitz I passed through Buchenwald; and I passed Dachau when I went to Sudelfeld. For that reason I could easily stop somewhere on route.
Q In the case of your accompanying your wife to Auschwitz, that was not an official trip, was it?
A I was then given leave orders. That was a leave trip.
Q What did your pass specify there? That you could go to Auschwitz?
A That I was going to Koenigshuette and to Kattowitz.
A But you did stop off at Auschwitz on that trip?
A I left the railway at Koenigshuette and took a suburtan train to Auschwitz.
Q You know that crematoriums and gas chambers were installed in Auschwitz, did you not?
A I know that crematoria were in the concentration camps. Whether or how gas chambers were established in Auschwitz I do not know.
Q Isn't it possible that the request to build additional gas ovens for baking bread at Auschwitz was actually a camouflage for the making of these gas chambers?
A I don't know that. People were building all the time in Auschwitz, I believe in Auschwitz alone there were several thousands of inmates working on construction projects. As far as I know, the camp was to be sufficiently large for two hundred thousand men. What was built there I do not know. I know that a great deal was being built there all the time.
Q Well, you know new that gas ovens were built?
A Hoess and other witnesses who had been in Auschwitz have been in Auschwitz have mentioned this, that gas chambers were there. Therefore, they must have been constructed.
Q They were constructed by inmates that you assigned weren't they?
A I don't know. There were Polish civilian workers in Auschwitz who were working with the building management as free workers. I don't know what they built.
Q You were examined by an SS physician at the time of your promotion to an officer in the SS, were you not?
A Me? No.