A No, your Honor, it was not. In any case I never hear that it been completed.
Q Was it begun? I mean was it started?
AAs far as I know, yes.
THE PRESIDENT: We'll take a recess.
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal will recess for fifteen minutes.
(A recess was taken.)
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal is again in session.
MR. ROBBINS: May it please the Tribunal, during the recess I conferred with the Secretary General and I think I can now clear up the confusion with regard to Documents No-1293 and No-1923. It is in Document Book IV. The original document which was included in Book IV when it was distributed is the correct document. It is No-1293, a letter from Gluecks dated 4 April 1944 and it has been offered in evidence as Prosecution Exhibit 99. At a subsequent time another document was distributed to be substituted for this document. However, that distribution was a mistake and the original book is correct. The other document, however, has been offered for identification. I put it to the defendant Frank on cross examination. It is NO-1923 and it has been offered in Document Book 22 for identification as Prosecution Exhibit 552. That is the letter which Judge Phillips was asking the defendant about. It is Glueck's letter dated 13 January 1944. So, both of the documents are before the Court. The defense counsel was correct.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: What was the page in Book 22?
MR. ROBBINS: It is on page 64, your Honor, it's the last document.
BY DR. BELZER:
Q. To continue with the direct examination, witness, who was it that ordered inmates to be transferred?
A. A Transfer of one inmate from one concentration camp to another were ordered by Gluecks in all cases. His deputies, Liebenhenschel and then Maurer until the end of 1943 were in a position to sign orders to transfer but Gluecks had to be conferred with at first. The order of the transfer was originally carried out by Office D-I, the central office, but when transfers were carried out difficulties arose because commandants would transfer ill inmates or clothe the inmates badly and things of that sort. Gluecks there-
upon ordered that in the actual order all these things should be mentioned so that they would reach the commandant as an official order. The draft of that order was made by office D-II and was approved by Gluecks. Then from that time onwards in my opinion all, at least, very many orders of transfer were drawn up by Office D-II but signed by Gluecks. These were the transfers from one camp to another whereas transfers from a concentration camp to a labor camp were up to the camp commandant without any specific order being necessary. The formal orders in writing very often were proceeded by teletype letters from Gluecks to the camp which then formed the basis of the actual order of transfer.
Q. Who was responsible for the carrying out of the orders of transfer?
A. The transfer order mentioned specifically that commandant of the camp from which the inmate was transferred, that camp which had to transfer inmates to other camps, was responsible that healthy and well nourished inmates would be transferred with sufficient food for the transport. Then it was also stated who supplied the guard personnel and transport leader who was responsible for the railroad transport. I know that there was an order once that the camp commandant and camp doctor were threatened, that they had to be responsible for the expenses which arose to the Reich if sick inmates were transferred from one camp to another and, therefore, were unable to work at their new camp. Later on, roughly in 1943 as I recall, a special form was drafted where both the commandant from which the transfer was carried out and the receiver camp had to confirm that the transport had been right and proper.
Q. Witness, please look in Document Book 21 at document NO2368, Exhibit 516, page 24 of the German and 25 of the English book. This is an affidavit by Entress. On page 3 of that affidavit at the bottom it says, and I quote: "Inmates were taken over by the head of the political department and the leader of the protective custody or his aid, a camp doctor and a labor assignment leader, carried out the actual selections."
This is the method of extermination in Auschwitz. On page 4 of the same affidavit in paragraph 16 it asserts and I quote: "All juveniles below the age of 16,all mothers accompanied by children, all ill and sick persons, were put on trucks and taken to the gas chambers. The balance of the inmates were taken over by the labor assignment leader and taken to the camp.
On page 6 of this affidavit, it says under paragraph 23: " The following departments of the camp Auschwitz knew of the gassings carried out and participated in them" I skip the next paragraph and continue with 'b': "The labor assignment leader knew about the gassings and participated as he was present when the inmates to be gassed were selected. He was under orders of office D-II." Now my question, witness, is--is it true that the labor allocation leader of Auschwitz camp or any other concentration camp was under orders of Office D-II?
A. No., the labor allocation leader of the concentration camp was the man who helped and assisted the camp commandant in matters of assignments. He received his orders entirely from him and was responsible only to the commandant in what he did.
THE PRESIDENT: Didn't Amt D-II have a representative in each concentration?
A. No, your Honor, the predecessor of D-II, Main Department I/5 had a representative in each camp. On 20 February 1942, this was discontinued and was never changed again.
BY DR. BELZER:
Q. Witness, is it not a fact that the correspondence and the exchange of documents between Office D-II and the Labor Allocation Leader was not carried out direct and immediate but went through the camp commandants?
A Yes, quite. The entire correspondence of D-II went to the camp commandant of the concentration camp, or, if it was a purely beaurocratic process, it was sent to the camp commandant's office of the concentration camp.
Q. And letters written by the Labor allocation Leader to D-II were signed-
A. They were signed by the Labor Allocation Leader on behalf of the camp commandant, which was printed on the form, or else by the commandant himself.
Q. To continue with respect to Entress's affidavit: Those inmates who were not to be gassed--was that part of the duty of the Labor Allocation Leader, in the concentration camp as far as you know?
A. Not that I know of. The camp commandant decided what the Labor Allocation Leader had to do and not D-II. He was to work on any question connected with the allocation of labor. In how far he was used by the camp commandant for other tasks, I am unable to say, It seems to me today that this would vary from camp to camp. Document NE 310 submitted by the Prosecution,Prosecution Exhibit 301 in Document Book II, is an affidavit by Kurt Pani. He talks about the formal process behind labor allocation, and he says, for instance that these orders about the detailing of detachments had been carried out by the commandant himself or the first officer in the protective custody cap. He goes on to say verbatim that in some cases the orders were also given by the Labor Allocation Leader. It is my impression, anyway, that it was not done in the same manner in all camps.
Q. Did Office D-II receive reports about the examinations in Auschwitz through the camp commandant or the labor allocation leader of concentration camp Auschwitz?
A. No.
Q. Was it possible to see from the surveys submitted to D-II anything about these exterminations--from the death rate reports, for instance?
A. No. As the affidavit shows, inmates about to be gassed were not first received into the concentration camp but were taken immediately from their railway wagons to the gas chambers. Therefore they could not appear in the lists as new arrivals or as departed inmates. Hoess also said in his affidavit that he never did keep figures about the gassings.
Q. Witness, in your testimony up to now you have said that you had no official or unofficial observations concerning the examination of certain groups of inmates such as Jews, Gypsies, and so forth. I would like to ask you whether you limit that testimony to persons who appeared on the lists of concentration camps?
A. Yes.
Q. When you commenced on the affidavit of Entress just now, you said that you as an expert in inmate labor allocation, were not in a position to hear anything about the extermination,of special groups of persons because they had not been first received into the various camps. My question is: Did you hear anything about that in any other way at any time?
A. Yes. Antsgruppe Chief Gluecks told me.
Q. Please describe to the Court in the greatest detail on what occasion this happened and what it was that Gluecks told you about.
A. The former commandant of Auschwitz camp in December 1943 or January 1944 was Chief of Office D-I, the central office of Amtsgruppe D. In April of 1944, approximately, it became known that some hundreds of thousands of Jews would arrive from Hungary soon, and we were told that these were Jews who belonged to construction details behind the front line in Hungary and that they represented a danger to the army.
These workers were to be used for work as quickly as possible, and, as it was explained to me at the time, Hoess was sent to Auschwitz because he had connections with the Reich railways and other departments, and it was only through him that it became possible for transportation to become available as quickly as possible in order to transport these workers to wherever they were to work.
One evening about the end of May or the beginning of June 1944 I was called in to see Gluecks. He told me roughly this: " I want you to swear under oath that you will not say one word about what I am about to tell you to anybody. Otherwise, you will lose your life. You know that Jews are about to come from Hungary. By Hitler's orders, some of them have to be killed. Hoess has gone to Auschwitz for that purpose. Every evening he sends me a teletype letter as top secret containing the figures of the Jews who have arrived and have been killed. I shall see to it that these teletype letters will be sent to you so that you can keep a register, because you work every evening late after hours."
When he told me this, I was appalled. I deliberated for a moment, and then I asked him not to give me that order because I was overworked to such an extent that I could not possible take on any additional work. Gluecks was slightly taken aback at this and then told me, "All right, I'll pick out somebody else."
That is how I heard about the extermination of the Jews in Auschwitz.
Q. To clarify this, you therefore were not given the order that Gluecks meant you to have?
A. No.
Q. Why did Gluecks pick you out, of all people?
A. I described before that I used to work every evening until eight or nine o'clock. Everybody else went home at six or seven, whereas we were the only persons to work overtime. I had to assume that this was the reason why Gluecks wanted me to work on this measure--so that these teletype letters, when they reached us, would immediately be looked up in a safe and would not be left lying about In the teletype office.
Q. The reason why you were to be given that assignment was, as you are bound to assume, not that the task which you were meant to do was connected in any way with the field of tasks of D-II and your own matters?
A. No, in no sense of the word.
Q. And this work which Gluecks meant you to do, you, in order to prevent doing this, pretended to be overworked? Was that your real reason?
A. I could pretend to be overworked, and Gluecks had to believe me. Actually, it would not have been too much work if I had carried out this order, but I did not wish to be connected with these things-which is the reason I refused.
THE PRESIDENT: What was the date of this conversation with Gluecks?
A. It must have been in May or June of 1944, Your Honor.
Q. Don't you think that Gluecks really guessed what your real motive was?
A. I think so. I concluded that because, roughly in October of 1944, Gluecks told me that by Himmler's order, the extermination of the Jews in Auschwitz had been discontinued. I was of the opinion at the time that the whole matter was begun only in 1944 and that it had been concluded very soon or at least been discontinued quickly because one had realized the insanity of this measure.
Q. If I understand you correctly, you refused this cold blooded murder Gluecks told you about because it was a crime. Would you have had the authority to prevent this crime being committed?
A. No.
Q. But, in your opinion, at least at the time, was it not possible for you to exercise some influence, at least regarding the extent of this planned extermination? What did you do?
On the day when Gluecks gave me this frightful information Maurer went away on an official trip. He returned the following morning. I immediately reported to him and told him what Maurer had told me and I asked him what he knew about this.
THE PRESIDENT: Only what Gluecks had told him.
THE INTERPRETER: I know, sir, but he said Maurer, unfortunately.
THE WITNESS: Yes, Your Honor. Maurer told me that he himself had heard of these things only in connection with Hoess's departure from Oranienburg to Auschwitz. He told me that it was necessary for us to find as many possibilities of labor allocation as possible and send at least a daily teletype letter to Auschwitz when these plants called for labor, in order to get transports of inmates from Auschwitz into the Reich. He thought that thereby he could sabotage the whole measure. He, himself, was not allowed to interfere with these things, which anyway had nothing to do with the WVHA. He wrote to all sorts of agencies, firms and governmental departments. He rang them up. We made an arrangement with Speer's ministry whereby this ministry would immediately supply us with any labor that was requested. That arrangement came about although Pohl, two years before, had refused to call in Speer or the Plenipotentiary for Labor Allocation in questions pertaining to the labor allocation of inmates.
Maurer did without the somewhat exaggerated security measures for all these camps. The barbed wire, for instance, had to be electrically charged all the time. I recall also in this connection a silent but tough struggle where we emerged victorious in the end. The firm Siemens, which had a branch in Thuringia, was promised female labor by us. Gauleiter Sauckel, who was also Plenipotentiary for Labor Allocation, had forbidden Siemens to take over these inmates. He told them that he could not expect his fellow Thuringians to work under the same roof as Jewish laborers, and he had therefore ordered that women, who were conscripted, should be transferred from Berlin to Thuringia. These conscripted women never reached Thuringia. Neither Siemens nor other firms in the Thuringian area employed female labor, and these firms thereupon simply explained that these women were of foreign extraction.
The fact that Maurer told me that the WVHA had nothing to do with these things was reinforced in my opinion when a few weeks later Office Group D had the following experience. I was sitting in Maurer's office and was showing him the mail. Suddenly the telephone rang, and Maurer was asked to go and see Gluecks. He came back after about twenty minutes in a rage and he showed me a teletype letter which Pohl had sent to Himmler. Pohl sent that teletype letter to Himmler from Dachau and sent Gluecks a copy. In that teletype letter Pohl said that an inmate transport from France had reached Dachau and that by the irresponsible leadership of the transport and a member of the Gestapo 480 inmates had suffocated in the wagons and had reached Dachau dead. He wished to protest strictly against this measure and he expected Himmler to have the responsible persons punished severely.
I know that Gluecks was very indignant with Pohl for having sent that teletype letter to Himmler. He said the punishment of those responsible could also have teen achieved if the teletype letter had been sent to Kaltenbrunner, who would then have punished the people responsible. Now Kaltenbrunner would be bawled out by Himmler, and when anything would happen in a concentration camp in the future and Gluecks had to answer for it, Kaltenbrunner would also immediately appeal to Himmler, and everything would come back to him, Gluecks.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: What was the date of this occurrence?
THE WITNESS: As I recall it, Your Honor, that was a few weeks after Gluecks had informed me originally. From a book by Gross, a former inmate of Dachau, I say that it must have been roughly in July of 1944. He mentions the fact briefly that a large transport with dead people arrived there.
Q. (By Dr. Belzer) Witness, by what you have said just now, do you wish to say that it was your hope to save the people from the planned extermination by incorporating them into labor allocation, and What that aim was the purpose of yours and Maurer's efforts?
A. Yes.
Q. Witness, in one of your earlier interrogations you mentioned this incident with Gluecks. I would like to ask you, was your testimony, when you were interrogated, caused by a document which was put to you?
A. No.
Q. Were you of the conviction when you made that statement that the prosecution would sooner or later find out about this?
A. No, because the only people who knew about this were Gluecks and Maurer. Gluecks has been dead for sometime, and I did not know whether Maurer was dead or alive when I made that statement. Hoess's statement when he said that he never kept figures of these exterminations was known to me.
Q. Witness, since you had to expect that you would incriminate yourself by what you told about this incident, what made you make that statement in your interrogation?
A. I wanted to tell the truth.
Q. With the exception of this one single case, you had no observations concerning the planned extermination of human beings in concentration camps, particularly Auschwitz, as you said. I would like to ask you, witness, what your explanation is of this.
A. The secrecy rules were extremely severe. I myself was sitting at a distance of several hundred kilometers from Auschwitz and could not see what was going on there. Nobody mentioned anything, ever. I myself, having heard about these things from Gluecks, did not tell anybody about this with the exception of Maurer.
Q. Can you tell us more about the secrecy repaired, generally?
A. There were several grades of secrecy, "confidential", "secret", until the highest point, namely, "top secret". I myself, in my department where labor allocation matters were concerned, could only deal with "confidential" or "secret" matters. Incoming mail, "top secret" or "secret", was sent on by me in a sealed envelope as they came in to Maurer, who would then file them in his safe.
Q. Did you know Fuehrer Order No. 1, as it was called?
A. Yes, that was affixed on all the walls in all the offices of Office Group D.
Q. Can you tell us from your memory the contents of that order?
THE PRESIDENT: If he cannot, I can. We have heard it dozens of times, counsel. We know it by heart.
DR. BELZER: I withdraw my questions.
Q. (By Dr. Belzer) In connection with your knowledge about the extermination of the Hungarian Jews, you said that it was your opinion that by incorporating inmates into the labor program you would be able to save these inmates. My question is, are you today of the opinion that through labor allocation of inmates, particularly by the activity of D-II, not only in the case of Hungarian Jews but quite generally, a considerable number of concentration camp inmates were saved?
A. Yes.
Q. Have you any indications that other people, particularly concentration camp inmates themselves, share that opinion and would be prepared to say so today?
A. Yes, and I would ask the Court to be allowed once more to read from the books, specifically from the book "Nacht und Nebel" (Night and Fog), a passage which refers to that.
Court No. II, Case No. 4.
Weissruettel, a former inmate, says on page 117 of that book:
"When, towards the end of 1942, it became necessary in the course of total war to establish an SS Armament Industry, changes became noticeable in the way inmates were being treated. Now, as people were killed at the fronts and bombing warfare paralyzed one armament plant after the other, it became necessary to save all labor that could be saved, no matter whether they were skilled workers or nonskilled workers."
"In that period of time the various improvements occurred which helped to the effect that after 1943 the position of the inmates became somewhat more bearable."
Then, on page 121, he says:
"Labor allocation was established... When that agency was established, the mismanagement which had made life very difficult for thousands of inmates up until then--and in many cases cost their lives, disappeared. Compulsion to do work meant that everybody, no matter who they were and without taking into consideration what he had been doing in civilian life, was now being used as an unskilled worker; but now a special department saw to it that each man would be used where he could be used best. On the basis of a large card-index every inmate could be used wherever he could do his best on the basis of his professional skill. As the enterprises grew and grew, and needed skilled workers to an extent which could no longer be satisfied, it was no longer possible now that an electrical engineer would do digging work. Another advantage also was introduced to us as far as inmates were concerned because medical care was no longer exclusively in the hands of SS doctors and trained nurses, but in the hands of inmate doctors; that is, experts. The mortality among the inmates, which for years had reached sensational heights, now became lower. There was an average of only three deaths per day, and we no longer were afraid to fall ill--"
THE PRESIDENT: Well, is it your conclusion, witness; is it your conclusion that from the end of 1942 on--forward--conditions in Court No. II, Case No. 4.concentration camps continually got better?
WITNESS: Yes, Mr. President.
THE PRESIDENT: Did you see the picture of the conditions in 1945, in the spring?
WITNESS: Yes, I did. I saw that film, and I must say that I am unable to explain the conditions--especially in the case of Belson. The position was that at the time enormous camps of the army and navy were evacuated near Zelle of all food that they contained. Every troop unit of the army could take with it whatever they had transportation for. The civilian population took food home by boxes and by wagons. It is completely incomprehensible to me why the camp commandant did not avail himself of that possibility.
As I said yesterday, I myself, roughly on 28 March 1945, at eleven in the morning for about ten minutes, stayed in Belson to talk to Kramer. I asked him whether he had any news or information which I could take along to Gluecks, and he said no. He said that he was waiting for the Allied Army troops who were, he said, a few kilometers from Zelle with an armored spearhead; and he wanted to hand over the camp to them.
I think it is entirely impossible that this vast mountain of corpses--that the camp commandant Kramer could think that he could emerge unscathed from being taken prisoner. The camp was then overrun in April of 1945 and handed over to the Allies.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, I merely questioned you about your position, your claim, that things got progressively better from the end of 1942--and you are reading from the book which you offer as the authority for that statement. If they got progressively better from 1942 on, I wonder how you reconcile that with what you saw in the spring of 1945?
WITNESS: I believe, Your Honor, that the events and conditions in 1945 were caused by the general emergency in Germany.
THE PRESIDENT: I don't doubt that. I don't dispute it. But I Court No. II, Case No. 4.want to know whether you think that they were an improvement over the conditions in 1942?
WITNESS: No, Your Honor; certainly not.
THE PRESIDENT: Of course not. Well, that is all.
BY DR. BELZER:
Q Witness, your statements referred only to the effect which labor allocation had on life in the camps--not the question of feeding them?
A Yes.
Q And who was responsible for food--or let me put it another way. Was it possible for the food supplies for concentration camps in the last months of the war to be carried out in a manner which excluded deficiencies? And if not, why not?
A I knew nothing about that at the time, but having seen the films about the camps I must assume that the air-raids on railroads and so forth resulted in a very severe emergency. I do not know how much Gluecks or Pohl knew about this. There cannot be any doubt that it did exist.
Q Did Office D-2 have the opportunity to help at all by allocating inmates to do some work?
A When the Russian armies advanced and, when in January, 1945, on the basis of the shortages of raw material the Speer Ministry drew up the so-called Fuehrer Emergency Program--that is, a large number of enterprises were closed down and only the most urgent commodities were produced--any regulation of labor could no longer be maintained, that is, as it existed after February, 1945. We were hardly given the necessary lists and surveys or any other files from concentration camps because labor allocation became less and less as time went on.
Q Mismanagement and bad conditions in the last months of the war in concentration camps were not caused, in other words, by such measures as Office Group D or Office D-2 did, but were simply connected with the military situation?
Court No. II, Case No. 4.
AAs far as I can judge it, yes.
Q Witness, now I would like to give you an opportunity, briefly, to speak about a few documents submitted by the Prosecution-perhaps it might be more appropriate to do this after lunch.
THE PRESIDENT: I was just waiting for that. No will recess until two o'clock instead of a quarter to two.
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal will be in recess until two o'clock.
(A recess was taken until 1400 hours.)
AFTERNOON SESSION (The hearing reconvened at 1400 hours, 1 July 1947.)
KARL SOMMER - Resumed DIRECT EXAMINATION (Continued) BY DR. BELZER:
Q Witness, yesterday you told us that some of the office chiefs had the general permission to enter concentration camps. I believe that I will be able to shorten the cross-examination considerably if I ask you to tell us now what office chiefs had this particular permission?
A The office chiefs over the former inspectorate of the concentration camps which liter on became Amtsgruppe D in the WVHA had that remission.
Q Before the recess, I told you that I would give you the opportunity to briefly give us your opinion with regard to some documents presented by the prosecution, as far as we have not yet dealt with them in the course of your testimony. First of all, I want to ask you which out of the 600 submitted by the prosecution up to now are provided with your signature?
A With the exception of my two affidavits, only document NO-789 which is in Document Book 16 as Exhibit 434. However, this document has nothing to do with the labor allocation of inmates.
Q From your activity in office D-11, not a single document which you have signed exists. Is that correct?
A No.
Q How many documents are provided with your dictation mark?
A Two documents. That is Document NO-1935, Exhibit 129 in Document Book 5 on page 68 of the German text and page 53 of the English. It is a copy of a teletype from the commander off the concentration camp Auschwitz to the commander of the concentration camp Buchenwald and in there he requests a certain opinion. From the letter of the camp commander of Auschwitz it becomes evident that the camp commander at Buchenwald violated the existing regulations about the procurement of inmates. He, therefore, is requested to give his opinion on that subject because Maurer did not want to let this matter go on without taking any action.
The other document is Document NO-597, Exhibit 360 in Document Book 13. It is a file plan which I compiled for D-II which, with a letter from the 9th of June, 1944, was sent to the camp headquarters by office D-II in agreement with their plans.
Q The enclosure to this file plan bears the classification of "top secret." Why was this file plan submitted as a top secret matter?
A The file plan showed where arament industries were located in German Therefore, the enemy intelligence services would have been able to see where the armament plants were located and that is why this whole matter went as "top secret".
Q Were all the files which are listed in the file plan actually filed?
A No, The file plan is a general file plan which is organized according to the organizational chart of the WVHA or according to possibilities which might happen. Within this framework, as far as files accumulate all these files were listed. The file plan therefore does not give us an absolutely exact picture of the conditions.
Q On page six of this file plan under the file designation 14 (XL) D-II 03, the inmate allocation for camp economic plants and the camp operation, there have been listed under 0325 and 0334 and the following camps are listed there: Lublin, men and women: Plassow, men and women: Riga, men and women; Kauen, men and women; Waiwara, men and women. Just how does this act coincide with your former statement that the concentration camps outside of the Reich territory were not subordinated to the office Group D?
I have already previously stated that the concentration camps in the occupied Eastern territories were subordinated to the SS economist with the Higher SS and Police Leader. This also becomes evident from Document NO-2128 which has been introduced by the prosecution. It is Exhibit 331 in Document Book 12. For the concentration camps in the territory of the Higher SS Police Leader for the Baltic Countries this applies at all times. For the concentration camps in the General Government this applies to the camps Plassow and Warsaw at all times, while Lublin for a certain period of time was subordinated to Office Group D. However, conditions there were always kept somewhat unclear since as far as subordination was concerned, they were under Globocnik. The economic experts were notified first by us of official orders; and the economists had to inform us of orders which they issued. Furthermore, they had to notify us of approvals or disapprovals of labor allocation matters so that we could pass on the appropriate information to Pohl. These files had to be kept somewhere and therefore they are listed in this file plan.
Q. Witness, on Page 41 of the file plan under the heading Concentration Camp Dachau and under the file mark 14 KL, D II, 15/5, inmate allocations for SS agencies are listed: 15/5 c, Lebensborn Registered Society at Munich; 15/5 n, Malaria Station, Prof. Dr. Schilling; 15/5 r, Production of Lehlachters Polygal. What did the Office D II have to do with these matters?
A. The Lebensborn Society by order of Himmler received Jehovah's Witnesses who were inmates in concentration camps, and they were used as servants in his SS homes. As to the military production of polygal, for a certain period of time some inmates -- I believe there were four or five -- were sent to Schlacters where they worked for while. The file about the Malaria Station, Prof. Dr. Schilling, in my opinion contained a complaint which I have already referred to. That was a complaint which I have already referred to. That was a complaint by the plant manager of the German production plants because skilled workers were furnished to Dr. Schilling and thereby removed from production in the plants.