Q. Did you later on have anything to do with the plans for frame-work?
A. If Dr. Kammler didn't order any changes or additions then I didn't because the moment when I transferred my work to the Planning Office of that Staff my task was completed.
Q. This answer can be understood in the organization in the construction field of the Waffen SS. I would like to interpolate a small remark at this time. In all of the documents and in all of the affidavits where construction is dealt with it says Office Group C built that and a wrong impression is created by that, namely the impression as if a closed activity existed here and one thinks that this is just a compilation of all independent agencies. It isn't sufficient for him to answer the question if he had built this or that or if he used inmates and it isn't sufficient if he answers that question with "no". This "no" has to be justified. It has to be justified by showing that he couldn't possibly have built it according to the situation of the things. That explanation can be seen from the organization of the construction department of the Waffen SS. As the Chief of the Amtsgruppe is not here, it is the task of the Chief defendant of Amtsgruppe C to clear that question. The description of the functioning of that office is also necessary as a basis for the cross-examination to follow. Also in order to understand the answers given by the witness to the questions put to him on cross-examination on the basis of this statement I have just made, it seems important to me to explain the organization of the Construction Department of the Waffen SS. I would appreciate it if the Tribunal wouldn't mind if I asked a few more questions on this rather dry subject, I ask you, witness, can you tell us very briefly the organization of the Construction Department of the Waffen SS, the top level of which was AmtsgruppeC?
A. Yes, indeed. I would like to tell you, sir, before I continue that during all of those years of my activities I realized that no outsider can understand easily the structure of such an organization. An outsider thinks that such a construction administration of, say a large city of the Reich, seems to him a large construction office where all the things are dealt with on one and the same table. However, in reality it looks entirely different. That is the reason why I would like to explain the organization of the Construction Administration as it really was.
Q. Would you take a look at Document Book No. 11 and take out of there Document NO-3031 which is Exhibit No. 316. It's on page 118 of the English and Page 121 of the German Document Book. It contains a file note signed by Himmler where the organization of the construction Department is written down. I will appreciate if you would go on explaining the whole thing on the basis of this document.
Under Paragraph 6 of this document -- no, I am sorry, I made a mistake. Under paragraph 14 of this document is an approval of the Reichsfuehrer-SS for the organization of the Construction Department-II, and here you have the agencies of Building Inspectorate, Central Construction Managements, and Construction Managements. What is meant by that is this: If something was to be built some place, then a building inspectorate was set up for that particular spot. The building Inspectorate was not a permanent institution, it was established before the beginning of the construction, and disappeared again after completion of that construction project, if there was not another special construction task on that spot. The Building Inspectorate always set up the main plans in every construction case. Generally speaking, it received those construction plans from the lower levels. That is to say, from the office which was subordinated to the Building Inspectorate namely, the Special Building Construction Management. Those Special Building Construction Managements have the following tasks; They procure the material for such construction projects. They issue the plans to an enterprise, and the estimated expenses. The Central Construction Management would then supervise the construction as such, and it would also supervise the material used for that construction. At the completion of the construction, the Construction Management closed the accounts with the firm that built it; then it made up the final accounts, and it audited the special account, and transferred it to their next higher authority, as the Construction Management did not have any treasury of its own. Therefore, it did not pay any bills, and the construction itself after its completion was turned over to the organization which wanted it, and this was entirely eliminated and separated from the Construction administration.
All the Construction Managements of a District were subordinated to the one agency, which was the Central Construction Management in the SS. That Central Construction Management was a permanent agency and contrary to its name, actually did not supervise any construction work. It was the lowest administrative level. They also had a treasury and they could pay accounts up to five-thousand marks. The tasks of a Central Construction Management were the following:
THE PRESIDENT: Was this Central Construction Management within the framework of WVHA?
THE WITNESS: No, Your Honor, the Central Construction Management was subordinated to another agency, which was between the Central Construction Management and the WVHA.
DR. MAYER: You see, Your Honor, there is a special construction inspectorate which was under Amtsgruppe-C. Those are two different terms.
THE PRESIDENT: I understand the witness has told us that the actual construction for a project was accomplished by this Central Construction Management?
THE WITNESS: No, by the Construction Management, Your Honor.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, all right. We are having difficulties with the terms here, and with words. It is the Central Management, is that it?
THE WITNESS: Yes, indeed. Central Management.
THE PRESIDENT: Now the thing we are trying to find out is, what was the relation between the agency which actually did the construction work on any project, and the WVHA? Was there any?
THE WITNESS: Well, let's say, now, if there was a connection that was dealt with the the Central Construction Inspectorate in Amtsgruppe-C, but I will have to explain that later on.
DR. MAYER: It starts down at the bottom with the Construction Management, and then a Central Construction Management, and the the Construction Inspectorate. Those were actually the construction agencies, and on the other hand---
THE PRESIDENT: Tell me that again. It started at the bottom, where, that is what?
DR. MAYER: With the Construction Management.
THE PRESIDENT: The Construction Management on the lowest level.
DR. MAYER: Yes, indeed.
THE PRESIDENT: Then?
DR. MAYER: Then Central ---
THE PRESIDENT:---Construction Management.
DR. MAYER: Central Construction Management was about the same as a construction office in the army.
THE PRESIDENT: And above that?
DR. MAYER: Then came the Construction Inspectorate.
THE PRESIDENT: Inspectorate, Construction Inspectorate.
DR. MAYER: On the other side, Amtsgruppe-C, had an office of its own with the name of Central Construction Inspectorate.
THE PRESIDENT: Yes.
DR. MAYER: Kammler was in charge of what, he actually was in charge of that himself.
THE PRESIDENT: Was there any connection between these three levels, these construction levels, and C-2, or Kammler's Agency?
THE WITNESS: Yes, under special conditions. It was indicated during the war the three construction agencies, which I mentioned before, acted independently up to 100,000 marks, and higher amounts had to be approved by Kammler himself, and the other fact is he had to buy raw material, and also there were certain quotas which had to be applied for, and those things went through the Central Construction Inspectorate Office C-5 in Amtsgruppe-C.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, let's start to build, and we are building now a building which is going to cost two million marks ---
DR. MAYER: If you will excuse me, Your Honor, could I make a suggestion. The witness himself is an expert, let him answer your questions?
THE PRESIDENT: Very well. Witness, you and I are going to build a building, it is a training building for the SS young troopers, or any other kind, and it is going to cost two million marks. Now the first thing I shall have to buy is some stone for the foundation, but first, who drew the plans for the building?
THE WITNESS: The plans were drawn up by the Construction Inspectorate.
THE PRESIDENT: Is that in Office -C?
THE WITNESS: No, that is an agency which is actually considered a medium level, which is under Amtsgruppe-C.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, all right, it is connected with Amtsgruppe-C.
THE WITNESS: Well, Your Honor, it has an immediate connection only with a certain agency in Amtsgruppe-C, that was the Central Construction Inspectorate in Office C-5.
THE PRESIDENT: All right that is one of the special agencies in Amtsgruppe-C which had to do with the drawing of the plans, is that right?
THE WITNESS: The plans were drawn up by the Construction Inspectorate, which was under this higher level. However, the approval had to come from the highest level.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, please don't talk about levels. I am talking about Amtsgruppe-C. Did it have anything to do with drawing the plans?
THE WITNESS: So far as drawing plans were concerned, no.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, who did draw the plans?
THE WITNESS: The Construction Inspectorate.
THE PRESIDENT: Was that not under Amtsgruppe-C?
THE WITNESS: Yes, it was under amtsgruppe-C, yes, that is correct, but under -
THE PRESIDENT: Well, was it a part of Amtsgruppe-C?
THE WITNESS: No, it was an agency outside actually of Amtsgruppe-C. Your Honor, it would be simpler if I told you that there were four Construction Inspectorates in the Reich. One was in Munich, another one in Berlin, another one in Posen, and one in Wiesbaden.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, counsel, perhaps you had better develop this subject yourself. I think I am moving backwards instead of forward. Go ahead you try it.
THE PRESIDENT: I notice it is time for recess.
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal is in recess for fifteen minutes.
(Recess)
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal is again in session.
DR. MAYER: Your Honor, I suggest that the witness should now explain the organization to us, and his connection with this through the example which he has given before. He should explain this to us.
BY DR. MAYER:
Q Witness. I ask you to explain the situation to us.
A I would like to take up the suggestion which the President has made, and I would like to explain the organization through an example. I stated -
Q Just a moment, please. Witness, first of all you are to explain, and afterwards you should explain your previous statements by means of an example.
A: The construction managements, the agencies which had been ordered to carry out the constructions, were subordinated for a certain district to the central construction management; the central construction management was a permanent construction agency in contrast to the construction management which were again dissolved as soon as the construction project had been completed. The central construction management had the following tanks. It had to compile the construction plans for smaller and medium construction projects. It had to obtain the approval for these construction enterprises up to the amounts of 100,000 marks from the next higher agency of the construction inspectorate. It had also the plans approved by the civilian authorities and after the completion of the project, it accounted for bills up to 5,000 marks. Bills which amounted to more than 5,000 marks it submitted to the higher agency, the construction inspectorate.
Besides these construction tasks the central construction management also had to assist in maintaining and repairing buildings which were already in existence. That is, once a year a commission of buildings was conducted and there the central construction management had to give a diagnosis about the state of the buildings with the city administration. However, it also could order the construction management to carry out his duty. Whenever a building was inspected once a year, and when the conditions there had been approved, the central construction management would order the repair work to be carried out by the next construction management which was located in the vicinity.
This central construction management of an area was subordinated to a construction inspectorate. As I have seated before, until the year 1944 there were four construction inspectorates within the Reich territory. We had the Inspectorate North which was located At Berlin;
We had the construction inspectorate South which was located in Munich; we had the construction inspectorate West which was located at Wiesbaden and we had the construction inspectorate East which was located at Posen.
In the year 1944, two inspectorates were added. They were the construction inspectorate Silesia, which was located at Katowicze and the construction inspectorate Bohemia and Moravia which was located at Prague. As far as the tasks of the construction inspectorates were concerned, already in 1941 Dr. Kammler had decided that the entire procedure which was to be followed in carrying out construction, that is, the planning, the execution of the construction, the accounting for the expenses of the construction, and the maintenance of the buildings was to be carried out on a decentralized basis; and it was carried out by the medium agency on the medium level, which is the construction inspectorate. Therefore, from the end of 1941 on the entire execution of construction was located with the construction inspectorates, and with the agencies which were subordinated to the construction inspectorates.
The tasks of the construction inspectorate were the following: The construction inspectorate had the supervision over the subordinate construction agencies. The construction inspectorate furnished the construction plans for larger construction enterprises. The construction inspectorate obtained the approval from the construction authorities. This so-called Regierungspresident, who gave the permission to have such construction carried out at the time.
The construction inspectorate had to take care of the contingents which were required. That is to say, they had to request and procure the construction material from the district commissioner showing the services of the plenipotentiary for the construction economy.
The construction inspectorate at this time administered funds for construction.
It had its own treasury and it paid construction bills independently. In certain cases up to 100,000 marks, in individual cases; if the amounts were over 100,000 marks for an individual case, then the construction inspectorate only had to obtain the approval for this expenditure. Payment of amounts above 100,000 marks was also made by the construction inspectorate. After all, there was no higher agency which had its own treasury. As far as the authority to give instructions is concerned, I must say that a construction inspectorate could never issue an immediate directive to a construction management. But it also had to channel it through central construction management. But a construction management, on the other hand, was not allowed either to by-pass the central construction management or to turn directly to the construction inspectorate, or to turn to Amtsgruppe C at Berlin, directly.
These construction inspectorates which I have just mentioned were subordinated on the highest level to Amtsgruppe C at Berlin, or Doctor Kammler in various tasks, directly.
In order to avoid confusion here, I would like to explain Amtsgruppe C. In reality it was so that within Amtsgruppe C there was a special office which represented the top level. The Tribunal has already referred to the distribution plan in Document Book 2, NO-1288, Exhibit 44, on page 30 of the German text in this document. The Office C-5 has been listed as a central construction inspectorate. That is, as the superior agency for the Reich Construction Inspectorate, the individual main departments, it can be seen that everything that is connected with construction matters at all is incorporated and coordinated in this central construction inspectorate.
With the Main Department C-5, the supervision over construction, that is, C-5-1; and the Main Department C-5-2, the budget and the construction service; and Main Department C-5-3, Raw Materials; and Main Department C-5-4, the Plenipotentiary General for the Construction Economy.
That is raw material and construction material, and allocation of labor.
I believe that it becomes evident from this that everything that had to do with administrative construction matters has been coordinated here. This central construction inspectorate did not have the power to exercise supervision over the construction inspectorate.
Dr. Kammler carried that out personally. Dr. Kammler also personally took care in dealing with all approvals for construction which amounted to more than 100,000 marks. That is, the construction Which had to be authorized and approved by a top-level agency.
I believe that I have shown sufficiently now the construction and the authority the construction agencies had. I stated at the lowest level, the construction management, and then I went over to the central construction management, to the construction inspectorate in Amtsgruppe C. The remaining offices were specialized offices. They were the highest authorities which worked in cooperation with the remaining Reich agencies which had to deal with the tasks which are contained in the assignment plan, just mentioned. The tasks were coordinated in such a way that the sphere of work of one office would not overlap with that of another office. That is, every office had to carry out its work independently. For the occupied territories, the organization at the lower level, that is, the construction managements and the con -
JUDGE MUSMANNO: Dr. Mayer, much of this discussion is very general; one office doesn't overlap another, and expressions of that kind don't present a very clear picture -- to me. I wish we could be a little more tangible and objective and let us get a little more directly to the charges in the indictment. I think we have heard a great deal now about his office and about construction managements, and so on. Can't we become a little more responsive to the things that he has to answer for? You see, unless you control this interrogation and keep in mind always what you have to apply to in the indictment, we can just go on here indefinitely, and not bet a clear picture of his responsibility, if any.
DR. MAYER: Very well, Your Honor. The time has come now for something which the President has suggested. Now we want to show by that example just how the cooperation was carried out. The purpose of the explanation is to explain that the tasks which the defendant had were completely independent and that they had nothing to do with the execution of the construction, and with the task of other offices. After this explanation and the example, I shall come immediately to the concrete question.
BY DR. MAYER:
Q: Witness, will you please give us an account of the example which has been mentioned before?
A: A construction is to be carried out at one place with the cost of 2,000,000 marks. It is to be established at a certain place. The competent agency, the construction management, compiles the sketches for the construction. For these plans it obtains the approval of Dr. Kammler at Berlin.
On that occasion it also requests from Dr. Kammler the furnishing of the quotas for the construction, that is to say, the quotas of raw materials. After the allocation of these quotas of raw material to Office C-V, negotiations are had with the Plenipotentiary General for the construction economy. The Plenipotentiary General approves the quotas of raw materials. Then he orders the district commissioner to furnish these raw materials to the construction management in the form of certificates which can be changed into material on the free construction market.
The construction management now has the approval to carry out the construction. Now it orders the central construction management to appoint a construction management for that certain locality. The construction management carries out this construction, and with the construction certificates it obtains the necessary construction material, After the building has been completed, it receives the bill from the constructing enterprise. Then it turns that over to the inspectorate, and, since the amount is two million marks, the inspectorate must obtain approval from Dr. Kammler in order to spend these funds. The permission is given and the bills are paid by the treasury of the construction inspectorate. That is the procedure in such a construction project when an amount of two million marks is involved.
Q. In order to avoid any misunderstandings later on, I should like to point out that in the occupied territories, in the East, a somewhat different organization was established, which is explained in Document 2128, Exhibit 331, in Document Book 12. I believe you do not have to go into any further details at the moment. However, if it should be necessary, we can refer again to this document. I now want to ask you, after you have explained the official situation to us, witness, by virtue of your activity did you collaborate with other offices of Amtsgruppe C?
A. Office C-II did not have to do that because I did not need any raw materials from my construction enterprises nor did I need any labor. I know construction expenses arose and therefore this work was indepen dent from these fields of work of the offices concerned.
Q. Did any collaboration take place with other office groups of the WVHA and their subordinate offices?
A. No. During my entire activity in the WVHA I have never had any negotiations or discussions with other office groups or any offices which were included in these office groups.
Q. Did you therefore ever request any inmates or did you cooperate in such an order?
A. No, I never did that.
Q. Witness, I want to direct your attention to Document Book 20. There is a series of documents which contain the reports of Kammler and of the tearing down of the Warsaw ghetto. These are documents NO-2503, Exhibit 507, on page 114 of the English text and page 159 of the German test, and the subsequent documents, Exhibit 508, 509, 510, and 511. I therefore ask you, witness, did you have anything to do with this action, and did you have any knowledge of it?
A. The action did not come to my knowledge, nor did I obtain any knowledge of these reports. All these reports were compiled by Dr. Kammler, and with the exception of the last they have the dictation mark of Office C-V. The last document is a secret letter directly from Dr. Kammler to the Reichsfuehrer SS. I should like to state in this connection that the corroboration of an agency of Amtsgruppe C, aside from the person of Dr. Kammler in this demolition and removal of the debris, is understandable to me because the central construction management at Warsaw, which is mentioned in the last document, in the document to which you are referring just now, with regard to the order about construction activities in the East and occupied territories, was immediately subordinated to the economies with the Higher SS and Police leader.
In this document it becomes evident that the work was discontinued by order of the Higher SS and Police leader, and that therefore the authority over this allocation of labor was not with Amtsgruppe C but that it rested with the Higher SS and Police leader. As far as I am informed, Amt C-II was not participating at all in this action, and, as I said before, I did not have any knowledge of what happened there.
Q. The document to which I have referred is Document 2128, Exhibit 331, in Document Book XXII, and this document shows the cooperation of the SS economies with the Higher SS and Police leader.
THE PRESIDENT: Document Book XII?
DR. MAYER: I beg your pardon, I made a mistake. It is Document Book XII.
Q. Witness, were all your collaborators members of the SS?
A. No, not at all. At the end of 1942 the Office C-II besides me was composed of twenty-five members. Of these, sixteen were civilian employees, and of the five officers who worked in my office three were specialist officers, that is, during the war they had been conscripted for that assignment, and during the time they were serving with the WVHA they only had been given a rank in the Waffen SS. However, as soon as they left their position in the WVHA, they again would lose their temporary grade. This did not make their membership in the SS mandatory. At the end of 1943 the office only had about ten to twelve people in it, and more than half of these people were civilian employees. Towards the end of 1944 only four employees had remained, and then the entire staff was composed of civilian employees.
Q. What is the reason for the decrease of personnel?
A. The reason for the decrease of personnel was war conditions, which actually caused us to discontinue our work which was dependent on the peacetime assignments of Dr. Kammler, that is, the preparation of normal construction activity after the end of the war for the construction assignments which had been compiled in Office C-II.
Q. You have mentioned the special staff of Kammler, who has been mentioned repeatedly in this trial. When and how did you obtain knowledge of the existence of this staff?
A. I heard of Kammler's special staff in the year 1943 when Dr. Kammler moved his offices from the WVHA to the Berlin suburb of Grunewald.
At the time I heard that in the same street and same suburb but another building a so-called fighter staff (Jaegerstab) had been established, and Dr. Kammler was also in charge of it. Sometime later I heard something about a so-called armament staff, and in connection with it I also heard of the special staff, which was also directed by Dr. Kammler. Its top letter was not the WVHA, but this was a task which was completely outside the WVHA.
THE PRESIDENT: Counsel, just a minute. You see, this is all of importance only in connection with the use of labor. The only relationship between all of this building program and the complex organization and the indictment is in connection with the use of labor and, of course, the construction of concentration camps, crematoria, and things of that kind. But whether Kammler had a special supervisory staff or a hundred doesn't make any difference. I'm still in the dark as to who ordered the labor used by the construction management or contractor in the building of our two million mark building. Where did the workmen come from and who procured them? Will you direct your questions to that, if you please?
DR. MAYER: Yes, Your Honor. I shall come to these questions. However, the defendant can only answer these questions with no. The explanation for this no can not be given other than to show that in his work he had nothing to do with all these fields. Therefore, I will try to explain that the special staff of Kammler was something entirely different than if it were subordinated to Amtsgruppe C. Therefore, no connection can be assumed there. I must describe the special staff of Kammler very briefly. The Prosecutor has not made any concrete charges against the defendant so far, therefore, I have to deal with the questions on a large framework in order to show that no connection can be established.
THE PRESIDENT: Let me ask the witness one question, first. Do you know where the laborers came from who built the buildings which Kammler had approved?
THE WITNESS: No, Your Honor. I did not know that at the time.
THE PRESIDENT: Did you know that at any time when you were connected with Office C-II? Did you know from where the labor was to come?
THE WITNESS: Your Honor, I never had any contact with any construction agency. From my office I was unable to judge whether the civilian workers were used by construction agencies or if inmates were used at the construction places. As far as I know, inmates were used at construction places.
THE PRESIDENT: That answers the question. Now, who decided what kind of labor to use?
THE WITNESS: Probably the agency decided that or the agency gave the orders which also caused these buildings to be constructed.
THE PRESIDENT: No. No. Somebody had to hire the laborers. Who was it? Was it the construction management?
THE WITNESS: Your Honor, I can not say that from my own experience. In my opinion, probably the following procedure was followed.
THE PRESIDENT: No. No. No. That leads us off into new fields.
Do you know who hired the laborers? Do you know who procured the labor for these construction projects? Do you know?
THE WITNESS: No, Your Honor. I did not know that.
THE PRESIDENT: Now counsel, I see your point. You must explain why he does not know.
DR. MAYER: Yes, Your Honor.
THE PRESIDENT: All right. Pick it up where you left off, then.
Q We were about to discuss a special staff of Kammler. Did you have anything to do with the special staff?
A No. I never had anything to do with it.
Q You have seen from the evidence which has been presented by the Prosecution that Kammler had to carry out a number of tasks in this special project which were in the field of armament, or where he had to deal with some other secret measures. I am referring here to the fighter program, the transfer of the industries into subterranean fields, the weapons program and the construction enterprise S-III at Ohrdruf, also the so-called A and B measures. Did you participate in these measures either within or outside your office C-2?
A No. I did not participate in this during my entire activity.
THE PRESIDENT: You have told us so many things that he did not so, try to find out what this witness did do and see to. I have not heard of anything that he did do.
DR. MAYER: I believe, Your Honor, that I have explained now that the defendant did not do anything; but those things which are contained in Document 1288 in Document Book 2, and which have been described there as his field of assignment.
THE PRESIDENT: All right. Now we are watching the document. It is on page 117 of Volume 2.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: Page 176.
THE PRESIDENT: It is also page 5.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: I see.
DR. MAYER: On page 5 of the English text begins the task of Office C-II.
THE PRESIDENT: Special Building letter?
THE WITNESS: Yes. They are called special building matters.
DR. MAYER: The witness will state just what brought about this title and how it can be explained.
THE PRESIDENT: No. I do not care about titles. I am -
DR. MAYER: Here it is further stated what he had to do in Section C-II, ZV. He has explained further the Main Department. Here it is stated in this connection just how this was only a theoretical plan and just how actual tasks were carried out by him in the form of construction projects and how far he dealt with these matters. In this connection, he has stated that his activities became less and less because as a result of the development of the war, many tasks were discontinued.
THE PRESIDENT: I remember, he testified about home planning after the war and buildings for returned soldiers and all of that; but what did he do during the war?
DR. MAYER: During the war his main task was the preparation of tasks which were to be carried out in peacetime, that is to say, the planning of houses and the collaboration of the construction agencies of the Reich and Reich Commissioners in the execution of the order of the Fuehrer about the construction program of housing after the war. Therefore, the witness has also stated that his office could be completely discontinued before the war without any damage.
THE PRESIDENT: But he said in 1943 these plans for after the war were abandoned due to the pressure of the war. So if you like, let us start with 1943. What did he do then.
DR. MAYER: What he still had to do was to take care of the planning and the sketches of the hospital buildings. The witness has stated that his work office was destroyed through air attacks and he had to begin his work anew. He had also stated that at the end of 1944 and early in 1945, there hardly was any more work accumulating in his office.