A Maybe it can be easily explained that such attempts were carried out and were made repeatedly. A supervision really was necessary.
Q Is it correct that Office B-1 was dissolved in March, 1945?
A Yes, that is correct. All tasks which were carried out by that office had been transferred to the high command of the army, or rather, re-transferred to the high command of the Army.
Q What was the reason for the change?
A General army administrative simplification, personnel and materiel savings, to the effect to eliminate parallel agencies in the same localities. Already in the years '43 and '44 the individual agencies of the Waffen SS and Police, were at liberty to procure food and to grow food at the nearest food camp regardless of what kind of an installation it was.
In other words, an installation of the army or of the SS.
BY THE PRESIDENT:
Q Witness, in the field -- that is, at the front -- did the SS and the Wehrmacht fight side by side?
A The Waffen SS and the Wehrmacht in the front lines fought side by side. This can be understood thus; the divisions of the Waffen SS were incorporated in a certain army unit of the army. For instance, two divisions of the army; then perhaps a division of the Waffen SS in addition to that formed one group, and that group of the Waffen SS was dealt with exactly as both the other divisions which fought side by side.
Q Did the Wehrmacht High Command control the Waffen SS?
A The High Command of the Wehrmacht, seen from our point of view; that is, the WVHA, B-1, and as far as food was concerned -- they did have control. That is, to the effect that we had to make reports about food consumption monthly so that the High Command of the army knew at all times if we actually used the rations which were permitted us by them.
Q Well, I wasn't talking about food -- if you had two divisions of the Wehrmacht and one division of the SS--who commanded that group, a Wehrmacht officer?
A Yes, the Wehrmacht controlled those SS groups.
Q Well, certain SS divisions were also united into one corps. In other words, a large unit. But an SS High Command -- if I understand that correctly -- which were over all the units; well, I know of no such thing.
Q The OKW--if that is the right-- if those are the right letters -the Wehrmacht had the supreme command of all the armed forces in the field?
A The Oberkommando of the Wehrmacht was in charge of all the armed forces in the front.
Q Including the SS?
A Yes, indeed; including the SS.
Q Now, did the Wehrmacht have its separate food supply? Separate from the SS?
A Well, in the front line the SS drew their food rations with the army supply office--that is, the army supply office of the Wehrmacht the SS in the front line did not have its own supply camp or supply stocks.
Q The Wehrmacht drew its food for the Wehrmacht forces from the army supply source?
A Yes, indeed.
Q Now, did the SS get its food supply from the same place, or did it come from a separate place? From, for example, from Office B-2?
A The fighting units of the Waffen SS, basically speaking were supplied by the Wehrmacht.
Q. So Office B-2 merely supplied the SS who were not fighting -
A Office B-1-
Q Office B-1, yes.
A The Office B-1 only supplied the special units of the Waffen SS and Police. By that I mean those units which were at home, in the homeland.
Q I understand.
BY DR. PRIBILLA (Counsel for the defendant Tschentscher)
Q You said that during the last year of the war separation between army supply stocks of the army and of the Waffen SS in the homeland were united for reasons of simplification of administration. Did this apply also the separation between the civilian food sector and the military food sector?
A The separation between the military and the civilian sector did not change.
Q This dissolution of Office B-1, and its incorporation into the High Command of the Army did not take place suddenly, but that apparently extended over a longer period of time. It was prepared for a longer period of time?
A Yes, that is correct. These preparations already started early in 1944.
Q Do you know any case where vouchers or request slips and certain documents concerning the food of the concentration camps went to Office B-1 or were dealt with in B-1?
A No. I know of no such thing. I would like to mention here that Office B-1 did not have a treasury of its own, not an auditing office. The food supply procured by the army warehouses or troop stocks were paid for by them. The requests for the army, basically speaking, also went to the troop economy depots without going through Office B-1.
Q Can you recall any case where negotiations were carried out in Office B and where the feeding of the concentration camp inmates was the subject of the negotiations?
A No, in Office B-1 there was no reason for doing that.
Q Do you know Professor Dr. Schenk?
A Yes; I know Professor Dr. Schenk.
Q What was his position? What were his tasks?
A Professor Dr. Schenk was the food inspector of the Waffen SS and Police.
A His agency supervised the fixing of food and the preparation of food with the army. He endeavored to eliminate certain complaints which arose when feeding the army. He endeavored to eliminate those points by changing them for the better.
Q Was he under Office B I in any way?
A No. Prof. Schenk was not subordinated to Office B I. I can recall that Prof. Dr. Schenk received his instructions from the Main Office Chief and/or from the Reichsfuehrer SS directly.
Q Was there a special expert of that field of tasks in your office who also knew the Inspector of Food, Prof. Dr. Schenk? Who do you think can give us the best information on everything that Prof. Dr. Schenk did?
A If I understand you correctly, you probably mean the scientific side of it all. I believe that the collaborator at the time, Obersturmfuehrer Dr. Ertl, could give you information.
Q Witness, what were the connections between Office B I and Amtsgruppe D and their agencies? Did they have common conferences?
What was the actual amount of the correspondence or the oral conversation?
AAn official connection between Amtsgruppe D and Office B I did not exist. Conferences and negotiations did not take place either. As far as the correspondence of D, between D and B I, is concerned, I can't recall that either.
Q Witness, you were already in your office when the defendant Tschentscher took over that office. During the time of the collaboration you met Tschentscher both personally and officially. Would you please tell us your personal idea about the way this defendant Tschentscher took care of his office, and will you also tell us about his character?
A It is known to me that the Office Chief at the time had been transferred from the front line duty to Office B I. My Chief of Office at the time up to the very end appeared to me only in a very correct manner; and that is the way I met him. In his attitude and appearance he was simple at all times.
He was also a real example to us. I know that he loves his family. Of course, by that I mean that he loves his children also. I know of nothing disadvantageous against my office chief at the time.
DR. PRIBILLA: I have no further questions to the witness.
THE PRESIDENT: Any cross examination by other defense counsel? Apparently not. The prosecution may cross examine.
CROSS EXAMINATION BY MR. WALTON:
Q Witness, are you in custody at this time?
A Yes, I am in custody and have been since November of last year. To be exact, I am here in Nurnberg in the jail.
Q Do you know why you are in custody?
A In December I was interrogated by the American authorities. That interrogation referred to questions which dealt with the fields of tasks of the office at the time, B I. No charges were made against me. Since December of last year I have not been interrogated again, up to this examination here.
Q Then you believe that you are in custody because of your activities in the WVHA?
A On the basis of that first conversation in December, that was the conclusion I had to draw; and I was told nothing else either.
Q Now, I believe on your direct examination you testified that you worked under the defendant Tschentscher during a year and a half that he was in the WVHA?
A Yes, that's correct.
Q Is it true that your official and personal relations were always friendly during the time that you worked for him?
A Yes, that is correct, too.
Q And the fact is that you admired him both as an officer of the Waffen SS and as an Amtschef? Was that not so?
A My office chief at the time was very short in his attitudes as we were a military unit. However, as I said before, he was always correct.
Q And you are still his friend today? Is that true?
A Even today I am on a good relationship basis with my office chief at the time.
Q Now, did you ever see Prof. Dr. Schenk in the office of the defendant Tschentscher?
A The offices of Office B I and the offices of Prof. Dr. Schenk were not very far distant from each other. The WVHA was repeatedly damaged by direct hits during air-raids. We moved the offices together in the building and therefore created a closer connection between the various agencies.
Q Then you have seen Prof. Dr. Schenk in the office of the defendant Tschentscher several times?
A Yes. I saw Prof. Dr. Schenk in the office of my chief of office on one occasion.
Q Do you know the subjects upon which Dr. Schenk and the defendant Tschentscher conferred, or have you heard the subjects about which they spoke?
A No, I don't know that.
Q Did you ever see the defendant Georg Loerner in the office of the defendant Tschentscher?
A I also saw the chief of office in my chief of office's office.
Q More than one time?
A I should like to add there that the supervisor of my chief at the time very often had something to do with my chief; that is to say, my chief was with the Amtsgruppe chief several times and the other way around.
Q Were you present at any of these conferences?
A Would you repeat the question, please?
Q Were you present at any of the conferences between the defendant Tschentscher and the defendant Georg Loerner?
A Yes, I was.
Q Do you remember any of the topics which were discussed at these conferences?
THE TRIBUNAL (JUDGE MUSMANNO): Mr. Walton, why don't you refer directly to whatever it is you want him to testify on? As to your first asking if they ever got together -- well, it is obvious they would get together; they're in the same office group. Now, did he hear any conversation? What did he hear them talk about? I presume you want to contradict him on something. But get right to that point on which you want to contradict him.
MR. WALTON: Very well.
Q I did not hear the witness' answer to the last question.
A The matters which were discussed in my presence between the chief of the Amtsgruppe and the chief of the office were, basically speaking, purely official matters of Office B I. They were talking about the food supply of the army. I can't recall any other conferences.
Q Did you evacuate from Berlin to Dachau with the staffs of Amtsgruppe A and B in April of 1945?
A Not together with them. The evacuation took place by rail, that is, train by train; and that is how I also was transferred from Berlin in the month of April to Dachau.
Q Did you ever see the defendant Tschentscher at Dachau?
A I saw my chief of office at the time also in Dachau for a short while.
Q Did you ever see the defendant Tschentscher in the concentration camp at Dachau?
A I myself never stepped in the premises of the concentration camp Dachau nor do I know that my chief of office at the time ever went into that concentration camp.
MR. WALTON: No further questions.
THE PRESIDENT: No questions from defense counsel? This witness may be excused. Who is your next witness, please?
THE PRESIDENT: Your next witness, please.
ARNOLD JULIUS HERMANN ERTEL, a witness, took the stand and testified as follows:
JUDGE MUSMANNO: Please raise your right hand and repeat after me:
I swear by God, the Almighty and Omniscient, that I will speak the pure truth and will withhold and add nothing.
(The witness repeated the oath.)
You may be seated.
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY DR. PRIBILLA:
Q Witness, would you please give this Tribunal your full name?
A My name is Dr. Arnold Julius Hermann Ertel, E-r-t-e-l.
Q When and where were you born?
A I was born on 22 June 1905 in Hohensalza.
Q Will you please describe your curriculum vitae and your career in the Waffen-SS?
A I am a doctor of agriculture. After completion of my studies, and after having practiced that profession, I became an employee of the Agricultural Chamber in Berlin. Later on, I was with the milk supply offices in Berlin. In 1935 I was transferred to the Reichs Health Service and the food physiological department. That is where I became Regierungsrat. In 1939 I was transferred to the Ministry of the Interior in the Reich as an expert for food questions.
On the 15th of April, 1943, I was drafted into the Waffen-SS. I was first transferred to the artillery there and I fought at the front line in Russia. When I was drafted, I was selected as a leader by the officer in charge in Berlin. As I had an academic background, I also was administrative officer. Early in 1944, upon orders of the Operational Main Office, I was transferred to the leadership school of the Waffen-SS in Arolsen. That is where I completed my study.
In April, 1944, I was promoted to SS-Untersturmfuehrer.
Q What was your last rank as an official?
A My last rank as an official was Oberregierungsrat.
Q Is it correct that it was only after 1933 that you joined the Party and the SS?
A Yes. I joined the party or rather I signed up in 1932 and I joined the Allgemeine-SS Cavalry between 1933 and 1934.
Q When and how were you transferred to the WVHA, and what was your field of task?
A I was transferred to the WVHA immediately after the end of my apprenticeship. I was transferred to Office B-I there.
Q What was your field of task?
A In Office B-1, I first of all dealt with tasks of the cooks apprenticeship school of the Waffen-SS. Later on, I dealt with personnel and organization of the Army Economic Camps. Furthermore, Georg Loerner used me as a recordman, a man to keep the records in the commissions of which he had charge. This had to do with the simplification of the Wehrmacht Administration.
Q Please tell us in a few words the tasks of Office B-1.
A Office B-1, principally, had the task of supplying to the units of the Waffen-SS and Police, who were stationed in the homeland, with both food and PX articles. That food supply and PX supply was also to be applied to the reserve troops. That was the reason Army Economic Gestapos were established which took care of that matter. All tasks which were dealt with by Office B-1 concentrated on those things I just mentioned.
Q Did Office B-1 have anything to do with the food supply of concentration camps?
A Office B-1 had nothing to do with the supplying of concentration camp inmates with food.
Q From where does the food of concentration camp inmates come?
A The concentration camps drew their food from the Civilian Sector. They received from the competent food office, certain coupons and it was on the basis of those Bezugsscheine or coupons that they drew their rations through the civilian food supply agencies.
The guards of the concentration camp were military units. They were fed just like all the other units of the Waffen-SS and the Police.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: Did each concentration camp commander order and obtain the food supply for the concentration camp inmates?
THE WITNESS: I do not know that. I do not know too much about the orders which were sent to the concentration camp commandants.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: You said they were drawn from civilian supply depots?
THE WITNESS: Yes. That is correct. That was a general regulation issued by the Reichs Food Ministry. It was known to all of us.
Q Did you, during your term in Office B-1, have the opportunity to find out who visited Herr Tschentscher in order to negotiate with him?
A Yes. I had an office for quite a while which was right next to Mr. Tschentscher's. All visitors who wanted to see Mr. Tschentscher had to go right through my office. I was not the man in charge of the anteroom of Mr. Tschentscher, but I still had the task of keeping undesirable visitors away from him. That was the reason I had to ask every visitor for the reason he was present. Most of the time the visitors were troop commanders and administrative leaders who wanted to discuss with him some sort of feeding in question. That referred either to the distribution in one of the four Army ration depots or perhaps reference was made to PX articles. There was also the question of supply. That was the main thing. Most of the visitors who came dealt with those things. However, there were certain people who wanted to have something for themselves. Most of the time the applicants want PX articles. I had to see to it that these visitors were sent away from Mr. Tschentscher. That is the reason we had a big sign in the office which said, "This is Office B-1, not a grocery store."
Q In other words, it was your task to ask the visitors who wanted to see Tschentscher what they wanted.
You could tell us who visited Tschentscher and what they wanted. Were there any people who came from Office Group D?
A The people who came from Office D, I did not know. I still do not know them at the present time. If they had come often, I would have known them.
Q Do you know anything about the fact that D-4 had asked him to supply food for the concentration camps? By "him" I mean Dr. Tschentscher?
A You mean delivery of normal food? No. D-IV did not ask him for any such thing because what Mr. Tschentscher had was nothing but Army supply. That Army supply was not to be sent to anybody else but the Army. However, I know for sure that once in a while, certain food supplies were given out by Tschentscher. I can recall additional food for old people was given out by Tschentscher, and also canned vegetables for the sick. Tschentscher helped out with such things once in a while.
Q Was that something that occurred regularly or only once in a while?
A I already said before that, he just helped them out once in a while because normally, he could not have been able to send supplies to them. They were Army supplies.
Q Was there a right to request such supplies?
A Only the Army had the right to request such supplies, nobody else.
Q Did Tschentscher also help other agencies in a similar way, once in a while?
A Yes. That did occur. He supplied something to hospitals once in a while. That is, only on special occasions, holidays. Then they also sent something to the people who were left behind, I mean relatives of veterans who were killed in the war and to certain units who came home who had lost everything in the homeland, and who were tired.
Certain supplies were also sent to Muselman units who needed something special due to religious reasons.
Q Did you have the opportunity to see the entire correspondence of Office B-1?
A Yes. I saw all the correspondence with the exception of the secret matters. I only saw the secret matters as far as they concerned my own field of task.
Q How was it with the field of task with other officers in the WVHA?
A We did not have too much contact with the other officers in the WVHA. We knew there was a separation between various fields of task, and what they were doing, but as far as what was going on with the officers themselves, was concerned, we did not know. We very rarely discussed those tasks among each other because the things that we would have discussed were daily routine matters. What would have been interesting usually went through as secret. Therefore, it could not be discussed. I would like to add at this point that the secrecy in our organization was very severe. For instance, every bomb damage regardless how small it was, which occurred in an Army Economic Depot was to be reported to our office secretly. In other words, there was not very much talk about things of common interest.
Q What other offices did you have contact with in the WVHA?
A We were in the same house with offices B-2 and B-5. We had a certain contact with those two agencies or offices, and with B-5 particularly with Supply questions.
Q Unofficially was there any contact there?
A Well of the unofficial contact that was rather limited, even very limited you know to days of the bombs in Berlin. We were only glad when everything had passed by, we were glad if we had survived the night, and we did not have to make contact with members of the other offices, because they were distributed over a larger area. For instance, the WVHA, I did not know anybody whom I could speak to with the German "thou", which is a rather intimate form of addressing somebody.
Q How often did the defendant Tschentscher represent Amtsgruppen Chief Loerner in the office?
A I only had experience with him on one occasion. That was early in 1944 when Loerner was taking a short vacation.
Q What was the impression you had about the deputization?
A I was under the impression the deputization limited itself to the fact that Tschentscher would deal with the matters which he would have had to report to Loerner in such a way that he could make a final decision. Finally with other office chiefs he acted in the same way of their competencies. Herr Tschenstcher submitted several things for his signature. If other offices did this as deputy of Loerner's I did not observe.
Q Did you know Professor Schenk?
A Yes, Professor Schenk was already known to me during my civilian activity. Early in the war he was sub-physician in the Army, and he was a man in the confidence of Dr. Conti of the Reich Health Service, and he was Medical Advisor with the Reich Food Ministry, and I esteemed him very highly, I think, at the time because he was very objective, he appeared to be very objective to me, and because he appeared to be a good scientist. Later on, however, unfortunately I had to change my opinion.
Q What did Professor Schenk have to do with B-1?
A Professor Schenk actually had very little to do with Office B-1. Of course, we were highly interested in his suggestions with respect to the food, and every change to the better, and he made several suggestions to us. However, officially, according to my knowledge, he was under Pohl and Himmler exclusively, and was only dealt with by Office B-1 in an economical sense.
Q Were you under an impression that Professor Schenk was a man who could exert a lot of influence, if he had an independent position, and if he did whatever he pleased, and, this above all, was he dependent upon you or Office B-1 with whatever he wanted to take care of?
A I believe that Professor Schenk was very independent indeed. He did not depend upon our office, or upon Tschentscher.
Q Is it correct that Professor Schenk carried out some activity which went outside the framework of the WVHA?
A Yes, during the last few months of the war he became Food Inspector with the High Command of the Army. In his official position with us he was mainly in charge of the control and supervision of the Unit of the Waffen-SS and of the Police, which lived in barracks. However, we found that Schenk was actually experimenting in things we would not hear very much about, because of course, he was very discreet. If one asked him a question he would answer the question very briefly, and he would not show what the score was. Things became rather complicated with him for us; that I remember I had small discussions with him because I had dared to cross him on things in one of his books which he had written, and I would like to say while at the beginning of the war when I first met him he appreciated criticism. Yes, he once liked scientific arguments, and I would like to say that he was very sensitive towards me during the war, as sensitive as a deer. The most important thing which he created was the Vitamin-C from gladioles.
That preparation was used quite a lot by the Army. Then furthermore, he created new spices, because there was a definite lack of foreign spices in Germany, and his suggestions for the betterment of Army food were published in several books and leaflets.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: Why did you change your opinion later on with regard to him?
A I did not quite get that question. Did you ask me why or what?
Q You said you thought very highly of him?
A Yes.
Q At one time, but that later on you had to change your opinion of him. Now will you give us circumstances which made you change your opinion, and why you changed your opinion of him later on?
A I had to change my opinion about him because at the beginning he was very frank, he could stand a criticism, and he was very objective, and it was later on that he changed entirely. He was under the impression that whatever he said was correct, and he just would not comply with certain regulations, etc.
Q It was not because of any experiments that he conducted on concentration camp inmates that caused you to change your opinion of him, was it?
A No, I don't know anything about the experiments which were carried out on inmates, at least, allegedly. I don't know anything about it.
BY DR. PRIBILLA:
Q Now, witness, you told us of your titles under Dr. Tschentscher, and you told us about the officialship in the Agriculture Chamber in Berlin; that in 1935 you joined the Food Physiological Department of the Reich, and that you also became Oberregierungsrat in the Reich Ministry of Interior for interior questions, that is correct, is it?
A Yes.
Q Then I shall submit you questions concerning documents which we have here at our disposal in reference to what Professor Schenk is supposed to have done in the experimental field; then I might start with the assumption that you have a certain expert knowledge about those food questions?
A Yes. Well, I had to deal with those things officially.
DR. PRIBILLA: Your Honor, I would like to stop the examination of the witness Ertel so far as his knowledge from Office B-1 is concerned. However, I would like to ask him a whole series of questions dealing with the things which actually appeared in this trial; that is, about the so called food experiment. What I mean I wish to ask him certain questions which he has an expert can answer. If you will permit me I would prefer to ask those questions after the noon recess, and then I would like to make certain remarks.
THE PRESIDENT: That is quite agreeable. We will take a recess now.
THE MARSHALL: The Tribunal is in recess until 1345 hours.
(A recess was taken until 1345 hours, 24 June 1947)
AFTERNOON SESSION (The hearing reconvened at 1345 hours.)
DR. PRIBILLA: If the Tribunal please, before asking the witness Ertel about something else, I should like to make a statement about my evidence on this point.
Yesterday and today I have attempted to clarify the relationship between Schenk's and Tschentscher's fields of tasks. I have endeavored to show that Schenk had an independent position, that as Himmler's favorite and as the Inspector with the OKH for Food for the Troops and Food Inspector for the Police and SS, he worked independently and that Tschentscher had nothing to do with whatever work and research was done by Schenk.
At this point I wish to go through the material submitted by the Prosecution about Schenk's experiments. In all documents submitted by the Prosecution about what was called the food experiments, I was struck by the fact that very little or nothing concrete was contained therein about the experiments themselves. I was present at the first Nurnberg trial as a Defense Counsel, and on both occasions we have talked of very many awful things about experiments on human beings. There can not be any doubt that a large number of our fellow human beings were tortured or killed in medical experiments, but in this case, in the field of food experiments, I saw nothing in the earlier trials which would show that the actual experiment was made in a dangerous manner, and, therefore, it is my opinion and part of my evidence that the material submitted here contains nothing which would be similar to these serious and frightful things.
I wanted to say that first before I begin to investigate Schenk's food experiments, and perhaps I shall have to smile about it even.
Court No. II, Case No. 4.
DR. ARNOLD ERTEL - RESUMED DIRECT EXAMINATION (Continued) BY DR. PRIBILLA:
Q Witness, do you know that Reichsfuehrer Himmler had a large number of ideas in all sorts of scientific fields which he attempted in an amateurish way, although quite originally, to carry out?
A Yes, that is very well put.
Q Yesterday, for instance, we heard that Himmler one day wanted to create a house of bad food. In that house cooks and troop commanders who had fed their troops badly were to stay where they could only eat burnt or spoiled food, and then be fed for three weeks in an exemplary way so that they could see the difference. Do you know about that?
A Yes, the house of bad food for troops is known to me, but from the beginning, as I see it, it was a farce. We had the order on one occasion from Himmler to carry out a course of that sort, but it became clear very quickly that the troops from the beginning were opposed to it, and we succeeded only in catching a few old police officials who were unable to escape from carrying out that order.
THE PRESIDENT: With the present state of the record, and the amount of proof submitted by the Prosecution on this subject, the Tribunal feels that it is not necessary for you to make any inquiry of this witness at this time. Should further proof be offered, or should it become necessary to meet this issue, you may recall this witness later to testify on this subject. I suggest that the necessity for more direct examination does not appear.
DR. SEIDL (For Oswald Pohl): May it please the Court, the food experiments which are the subject of the examination of this witness are part of the evidence submitted by the Prosecution and are contained, I believe, in Document Book 8. My colleague, Dr. Pribilla, and I came to an agreement that only one of us would talk about these food experiments and examine this witness, and from that point of view, Court No. II, Case No. 4.namely, that as defense counsel for Defendant Tschentscher he is more interested in the statements by this witness, we agreed between each other that he should ask this witness, inasmuch as questions will be concerned with food experiments.