Apart from that, I was not a small rifleman who could put down his rifle and walk away. I was responsible also for the fact that in this highly unpleasant state of affairs complete chaos should not break out. I had to remain on my post in order to look after the food policy to the last moment. Nor can I reproach myself with the fact that I offered senseless resistance because I was not on the fighting job. I was merely supplying people with food.
Q Did you yourself observe what happened to people who at that time acted against discipline?
A No, I did not observe anything of that sort; that somebody was shot in my presence.
Q But you knew that might happen.
A It was widely known at the time. It was broadcast even.
Q Witness, when you carried out that task to supply the troops with food when they took their last stand, you evacuated food stocks from Dachau. Was that food which was earmarked for the troops, or did you also take food stocks from the concentration camp?
A May I say first of all that I did not only evacuate food from Dachau but also from all food offices of the army and the SS. What I evacuated from Dachau was purely food for the troops. Food supplies for the concentration camp were outside my competence; and I knew nothing about it.
Q These stocks were not near the concentration camp but at a certain distance?
A It was entirely impossible to mix these two stocks up. I said that the food depot at Dachau was at a distance of about three kilometers from the concentration camp in a totally different part.
DR. PRIBILLA: If the Tribunal please, I have no further questions on redirect examination but I should like to say that Document No-2331 in Document Book 21, which is Vieweg's affidavit, referred to just now by the Prosecution, in the German document does not contain Tschentscher's name.
I saw just now that in the Prosecution's copy that passage is contained.
THE PRESIDENT: How does it happen that the German document doesn't correspond with the English?
MR. ROBBINS: I believe that a paragraph must have been omitted from the stencil on the German. I feel certain it is in the original files with the Secretary General. I will check it at the recess to make certain, however.
THE PRESIDENT: Is it a whole paragraph apparently omitted?
MR. ROBBINS: Apparently, yes.
THE PRESIDENT: All right.
EXAMINATION BY THE TRIBUNAL (JUDGE MUSMANNO):
Q Witness, did I understand you to say that in the closing days any officer could shoot any other officer without giving an accounting to any body just because in his mind he assumed that the man he was going to shoot was not doing his duty?
A That is how it was announced. He had the right to bring the man before a court martial, a rather rapid court martial. The way it was done was that the court martial was formed by three officers. One was usually equal in rank to the defendant. It was a very rapid trial but its legal forms were observed.
Q Oh, it wasn't then, that one could on his own volition whip out a pistol and shoot down another officer.
A No, I didn't think it was like that at all.
Q When did this order come through?
A I heard of that order when the Russians reached the Danzig area, which was at the beginning of 1945.
Q Very well.
THE PRESIDENT: The marshal, may remove the witness from the box.
The next witness for the defense?
DR. PRIBILLA: This is witness Walter Hoyer, who was a colleague of Tschentscher's in B.I.
WALTER HOYER, A Witness took the stand and testified as follows:
THE PRESIDENT: Witness will you raise your right hand and repeat after me:
I swear by God, the Almighty and Omniscient, that I will speak the pure truth and will withhold and add nothing.
(The witness repeated the oath.)
THE PRESIDENT: You may be seated.
MR. ROBBINS: May it please the Tribunal, I should like for it to appear on the record that notice was not given to the prosecution as required by the rules for the calling of this witness. However, we do not press any objection.
DR. PRIBILLA: I'm very sorry. Mr. President, that I informed the Prosecution too late about this witness, but on the other hand it was-
THE PRESIDENT: No objection is made. Go right ahead.
DIRECT EXAMINATION BY DR. PRIBILLA:
Q Please give us your full name and the date of your birth.
A My name is Walter Hoyer. I was borned in Tilsit on the 3rd of November 1907.
Q Tell us very briefly your career.
A I was trained as a merchant until 1927. I trained to be a merchant. My training was finished in 1925. Then I was an employee in various places of the Reich. When war broke out, I was called up; and in January 1940 I was transferred to the Waffen-SS. I was greatly interested in an administrative career; and I took part in a brief training course at the SS Administrative School in Dachau. Having completed that course I was dismissed as an administrative non-commissioned officer and transferred to the troops. In March 1941 I was promoted to SS Untersturmfueh rer of the Reserve, and shortly after that I became the administrative officer of a battalion in an SS division.
Q. Is it true that you joined the party and SS only after 1933?
A. Yes, that is true. I joined the general SS in July of 1933 and the Party in 1937.
Q. When and how did you contact the WVHA for the first time?
A. My division in the spring of 1942 was withdrawn from Russia. I had to report to my reserve unit which was the personnel office of the Main Office. From there I was transferred to Office B-I.
Q. Is it true that in WVHA, you were assistant in Office B-I, and from October, 1943, the defendant Tschentscher was your superior?
A. Yes, that is Correct.
Q. From when until when did you work in B-I?
A. I joined the Office in May of 1941 until the beginning of April 1945.
Q. You were there for a longer period of time than Tschentscher was?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you know precise details of the tasks and duties of Office Group B and in particular, Office B-I?
A. Yes. I am very precisely informed about that.
Q. What was your special field?
A. In B-I, I worked on supply and food questions. I worked according to the directives of the OKH as Office B-I was part of the Wehrmacht organization in respect to food.
Q. Tell us, briefly, the duties of Office Croup-B, such as you knew them.
A. Office Group B consisted of Offices B-I, Food; B-II, Clothing, B-III, Accommodations; B-IV no longer exists; B-V, Transport. All those offices which supplied troops were concentrated in that office group. Office Group B, therefore, was also called Troop Economy. Special details of the offices II to V are not known to me. I did not have the opportunity or any reason to know that. I know, for instance, that up to a point there was collaboration with Office B-V, Transport.
B-V worked on the formal request for railway wagons. It supplied trucks to transport our food, but I did not know any more details.
Q. Tell us, please, all about Office B-I.
A. The competence of Office B-I was concerned with the proceasing of food and PX matters for the units of the Waffen-SS and the units of the regular police. I mentioned before the close collaboration with the OKH. Directives issued by the OKH had to be strictly followed by B-I. The directives had to be observed most strictly so that food would be distributed equally among all units of the troops whether they were members of the Navy, the Army, the Luftwaffe or of the Waffen-SS. In order to calculate the food rations, Office B-I was given strength reports which, as far as the Waffen SS was concerned, came from the Operational Main Office.
An important task was to adapt OKH directives to the needs of the Waffen-SS and Police and to issue the ration lists to the agencies of the Police and Waffen-SS. Extra supplies of food were obtained through the food depots of the troops which then sent the food to the units of their district.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: Would you say that the food for the Waffen SS was superior to that furnished to the Wehrmacht in quality and quantity?
THE WITNESS: The food supply to the troops by the food depots was just what the OKH had decided for the units of the Army.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: Very well. Office B-I then had to supervise the food supplies and check up on the depots. That, roughly, is what Office B-I did.
Q. Witness, I was also struck by your remark that the directives by the OKH had to be adapted to the requirements of the WaffenSS and the Police. Why was that necessary if the rations were the same?
A. I meant by adapting, that the OKH directives, of course, had used Army terms. Now we simply changed that to Waffen-SS terms in connection with the terms used by the Food depots. The actual contents remained the same.
Q. I think we can understand only if you will explain to the Court that all terms from a simple man to the highest leader were completely different with the SS and Police than they were with the Army.
A. Yes. That is quite correct. Ranks had different titles in the Waffen-SS.
Q. Did Office B-I have any official contacts with concentration camp matters?
A. No.
Q. Can you say that with the utmost certainty, particularly, that food supply for the concentration camps was not effected by the B-I?
A. B-I did not have that duty. It was not competent.
Q. who was competent for that, in your opinion and knowledge?
A. As I see it, the food supplies for concentration camps was up to the actual concentration camp itself in connection with the regional agencies, the food offices. I think when a concentration camp had its doubts, it had to apply to its superior agency.
THE INTERPRETER: If the Tribunal please, I have a message that the film has run out, the recording film.
THE PRESIDENT: Counsel, we will have to wait until additional sound film has been installed. We have come to the end of a role. We will suspend. We will not divide the recess. We will take a recess now for 15 minutes or so.
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal is in recess for 15 minutes.
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal is again in session.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal wishes to announce that - I am sorry the other defense counsel are not here, but perhaps those that are will take the message - we will be in session this coming Saturday from nine o'clock until one, but on Monday, July 7th, we will not be in session at all. We will recess on Thursday night, July 3rd, the following day is a holiday, the Fourth of July, and we will resume sessions on the following Tuesday morning, that will be the 8th of July, at the usual time. But this coming Saturday, Saturday of this week, we will be in session from nine o'clock, not nine-thirty, until one.
BY DR. PRIBILLA:
Q What can you tell us from your knowledge, about the fact, that some witnesses testified here to the effect that the Defendant Georg Loerner is the main food chief, also with respect to concentration camps?
A I hear this expression here for the first time. In any case this expression is wrong. Amtsgruppe B for "Baker" was not an agency in charge of Amtsgruppe D for "Dog". That was the reason why a connection in that sense is not possible.
Q Who was it that fixed the food rations for the inmates in the concentration camps?
A The Reich Food Ministry.
Q How do you know that?
A That is a fact which became know to me in the office.
Q In your office the so-called ration list was set up. Do you know that list, what it was all about?
A Well, yes, that is correct. In Office B for "Baker" I, a ration list was set up. It was also published. That list existed already at the time when I, in 1942, joined that office. That list in its contents was about the same as, for instance, an army regulation containing the number 86/1. It was the same or similar to that army regulation. I can only understand the publication of that list by the Office B for "Baker" I by saying that all the regulations which apply to that field, which, of course, were rather complicated, and varied and had been arranged so as to enable the experts who handled such matters to have all the regulations condensed.
Q Did you or did Tschentscher or anybody else from Office B-1 have any influence or participate when fixing the rations?
A No, in no way.
Q Did Office B-1 receive food statistics and food situation statistics about the concentration camps?
A No.
Q Did you think that Office B-1 would have been able to use the food stocks; for instance, for the benefit of the concentration camps? Or were those tasks, were those stocks only used for a specific task?
A Office B-1 could not do whatever they wanted with the stocks. By that I mean they couldn't do it for the benefit of the concentration camps. Office B-1 had certain allocations which had been set in advance and which were to be distributed to certain army units, and, according to the personnel strength of these army units. The personnel strength, as a total towards the end, amounted to one million men and, therefore, this office was in charge of the procurement.
Q What you just said is only to be understood basically -
A Yes.
Q Now, did you have a certain margin in which you could move freely in certain specific cases?
A Yes, there was a small margin. The personnel strength varied at times. In any case, the change of personnel strength did not amount to very much, and the margin itself was not very large either.
Q Could one say then that the Army Economy stocks were certain installations which were at the disposal of procurement of food for the concentration camps?
A No, that is not correct. The army economy stocks were not at the disposal of the concentration camps.
We supervised that, particularly to the effect that clear separation of tasks could be reached.
Q Such a supervision of the army economy stocks --- was that necessary? Were any attempts made by any other agencies to draw food from those army stocks?
A Maybe it can be easily explained that such attempts were carried out and were made repeatedly. A supervision really was necessary.
Q Is it correct that Office B-1 was dissolved in March, 1945?
A Yes, that is correct. All tasks which were carried out by that office had been transferred to the high command of the army, or rather, re-transferred to the high command of the Army.
Q What was the reason for the change?
A General army administrative simplification, personnel and materiel savings, to the effect to eliminate parallel agencies in the same localities. Already in the years '43 and '44 the individual agencies of the Waffen SS and Police, were at liberty to procure food and to grow food at the nearest food camp regardless of what kind of an installation it was.
In other words, an installation of the army or of the SS.
BY THE PRESIDENT:
Q Witness, in the field -- that is, at the front -- did the SS and the Wehrmacht fight side by side?
A The Waffen SS and the Wehrmacht in the front lines fought side by side. This can be understood thus; the divisions of the Waffen SS were incorporated in a certain army unit of the army. For instance, two divisions of the army; then perhaps a division of the Waffen SS in addition to that formed one group, and that group of the Waffen SS was dealt with exactly as both the other divisions which fought side by side.
Q Did the Wehrmacht High Command control the Waffen SS?
A The High Command of the Wehrmacht, seen from our point of view; that is, the WVHA, B-1, and as far as food was concerned -- they did have control. That is, to the effect that we had to make reports about food consumption monthly so that the High Command of the army knew at all times if we actually used the rations which were permitted us by them.
Q Well, I wasn't talking about food -- if you had two divisions of the Wehrmacht and one division of the SS--who commanded that group, a Wehrmacht officer?
A Yes, the Wehrmacht controlled those SS groups.
Q Well, certain SS divisions were also united into one corps. In other words, a large unit. But an SS High Command -- if I understand that correctly -- which were over all the units; well, I know of no such thing.
Q The OKW--if that is the right-- if those are the right letters -the Wehrmacht had the supreme command of all the armed forces in the field?
A The Oberkommando of the Wehrmacht was in charge of all the armed forces in the front.
Q Including the SS?
A Yes, indeed; including the SS.
Q Now, did the Wehrmacht have its separate food supply? Separate from the SS?
A Well, in the front line the SS drew their food rations with the army supply office--that is, the army supply office of the Wehrmacht the SS in the front line did not have its own supply camp or supply stocks.
Q The Wehrmacht drew its food for the Wehrmacht forces from the army supply source?
A Yes, indeed.
Q Now, did the SS get its food supply from the same place, or did it come from a separate place? From, for example, from Office B-2?
A The fighting units of the Waffen SS, basically speaking were supplied by the Wehrmacht.
Q. So Office B-2 merely supplied the SS who were not fighting -
A Office B-1-
Q Office B-1, yes.
A The Office B-1 only supplied the special units of the Waffen SS and Police. By that I mean those units which were at home, in the homeland.
Q I understand.
BY DR. PRIBILLA (Counsel for the defendant Tschentscher)
Q You said that during the last year of the war separation between army supply stocks of the army and of the Waffen SS in the homeland were united for reasons of simplification of administration. Did this apply also the separation between the civilian food sector and the military food sector?
A The separation between the military and the civilian sector did not change.
Q This dissolution of Office B-1, and its incorporation into the High Command of the Army did not take place suddenly, but that apparently extended over a longer period of time. It was prepared for a longer period of time?
A Yes, that is correct. These preparations already started early in 1944.
Q Do you know any case where vouchers or request slips and certain documents concerning the food of the concentration camps went to Office B-1 or were dealt with in B-1?
A No. I know of no such thing. I would like to mention here that Office B-1 did not have a treasury of its own, not an auditing office. The food supply procured by the army warehouses or troop stocks were paid for by them. The requests for the army, basically speaking, also went to the troop economy depots without going through Office B-1.
Q Can you recall any case where negotiations were carried out in Office B and where the feeding of the concentration camp inmates was the subject of the negotiations?
A No, in Office B-1 there was no reason for doing that.
Q Do you know Professor Dr. Schenk?
A Yes; I know Professor Dr. Schenk.
Q What was his position? What were his tasks?
A Professor Dr. Schenk was the food inspector of the Waffen SS and Police.
A His agency supervised the fixing of food and the preparation of food with the army. He endeavored to eliminate certain complaints which arose when feeding the army. He endeavored to eliminate those points by changing them for the better.
Q Was he under Office B I in any way?
A No. Prof. Schenk was not subordinated to Office B I. I can recall that Prof. Dr. Schenk received his instructions from the Main Office Chief and/or from the Reichsfuehrer SS directly.
Q Was there a special expert of that field of tasks in your office who also knew the Inspector of Food, Prof. Dr. Schenk? Who do you think can give us the best information on everything that Prof. Dr. Schenk did?
A If I understand you correctly, you probably mean the scientific side of it all. I believe that the collaborator at the time, Obersturmfuehrer Dr. Ertl, could give you information.
Q Witness, what were the connections between Office B I and Amtsgruppe D and their agencies? Did they have common conferences?
What was the actual amount of the correspondence or the oral conversation?
AAn official connection between Amtsgruppe D and Office B I did not exist. Conferences and negotiations did not take place either. As far as the correspondence of D, between D and B I, is concerned, I can't recall that either.
Q Witness, you were already in your office when the defendant Tschentscher took over that office. During the time of the collaboration you met Tschentscher both personally and officially. Would you please tell us your personal idea about the way this defendant Tschentscher took care of his office, and will you also tell us about his character?
A It is known to me that the Office Chief at the time had been transferred from the front line duty to Office B I. My Chief of Office at the time up to the very end appeared to me only in a very correct manner; and that is the way I met him. In his attitude and appearance he was simple at all times.
He was also a real example to us. I know that he loves his family. Of course, by that I mean that he loves his children also. I know of nothing disadvantageous against my office chief at the time.
DR. PRIBILLA: I have no further questions to the witness.
THE PRESIDENT: Any cross examination by other defense counsel? Apparently not. The prosecution may cross examine.
CROSS EXAMINATION BY MR. WALTON:
Q Witness, are you in custody at this time?
A Yes, I am in custody and have been since November of last year. To be exact, I am here in Nurnberg in the jail.
Q Do you know why you are in custody?
A In December I was interrogated by the American authorities. That interrogation referred to questions which dealt with the fields of tasks of the office at the time, B I. No charges were made against me. Since December of last year I have not been interrogated again, up to this examination here.
Q Then you believe that you are in custody because of your activities in the WVHA?
A On the basis of that first conversation in December, that was the conclusion I had to draw; and I was told nothing else either.
Q Now, I believe on your direct examination you testified that you worked under the defendant Tschentscher during a year and a half that he was in the WVHA?
A Yes, that's correct.
Q Is it true that your official and personal relations were always friendly during the time that you worked for him?
A Yes, that is correct, too.
Q And the fact is that you admired him both as an officer of the Waffen SS and as an Amtschef? Was that not so?
A My office chief at the time was very short in his attitudes as we were a military unit. However, as I said before, he was always correct.
Q And you are still his friend today? Is that true?
A Even today I am on a good relationship basis with my office chief at the time.
Q Now, did you ever see Prof. Dr. Schenk in the office of the defendant Tschentscher?
A The offices of Office B I and the offices of Prof. Dr. Schenk were not very far distant from each other. The WVHA was repeatedly damaged by direct hits during air-raids. We moved the offices together in the building and therefore created a closer connection between the various agencies.
Q Then you have seen Prof. Dr. Schenk in the office of the defendant Tschentscher several times?
A Yes. I saw Prof. Dr. Schenk in the office of my chief of office on one occasion.
Q Do you know the subjects upon which Dr. Schenk and the defendant Tschentscher conferred, or have you heard the subjects about which they spoke?
A No, I don't know that.
Q Did you ever see the defendant Georg Loerner in the office of the defendant Tschentscher?
A I also saw the chief of office in my chief of office's office.
Q More than one time?
A I should like to add there that the supervisor of my chief at the time very often had something to do with my chief; that is to say, my chief was with the Amtsgruppe chief several times and the other way around.
Q Were you present at any of these conferences?
A Would you repeat the question, please?
Q Were you present at any of the conferences between the defendant Tschentscher and the defendant Georg Loerner?
A Yes, I was.
Q Do you remember any of the topics which were discussed at these conferences?
THE TRIBUNAL (JUDGE MUSMANNO): Mr. Walton, why don't you refer directly to whatever it is you want him to testify on? As to your first asking if they ever got together -- well, it is obvious they would get together; they're in the same office group. Now, did he hear any conversation? What did he hear them talk about? I presume you want to contradict him on something. But get right to that point on which you want to contradict him.
MR. WALTON: Very well.
Q I did not hear the witness' answer to the last question.
A The matters which were discussed in my presence between the chief of the Amtsgruppe and the chief of the office were, basically speaking, purely official matters of Office B I. They were talking about the food supply of the army. I can't recall any other conferences.
Q Did you evacuate from Berlin to Dachau with the staffs of Amtsgruppe A and B in April of 1945?
A Not together with them. The evacuation took place by rail, that is, train by train; and that is how I also was transferred from Berlin in the month of April to Dachau.
Q Did you ever see the defendant Tschentscher at Dachau?
A I saw my chief of office at the time also in Dachau for a short while.
Q Did you ever see the defendant Tschentscher in the concentration camp at Dachau?
A I myself never stepped in the premises of the concentration camp Dachau nor do I know that my chief of office at the time ever went into that concentration camp.
MR. WALTON: No further questions.
THE PRESIDENT: No questions from defense counsel? This witness may be excused. Who is your next witness, please?
THE PRESIDENT: Your next witness, please.
ARNOLD JULIUS HERMANN ERTEL, a witness, took the stand and testified as follows:
JUDGE MUSMANNO: Please raise your right hand and repeat after me:
I swear by God, the Almighty and Omniscient, that I will speak the pure truth and will withhold and add nothing.
(The witness repeated the oath.)
You may be seated.
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY DR. PRIBILLA:
Q Witness, would you please give this Tribunal your full name?
A My name is Dr. Arnold Julius Hermann Ertel, E-r-t-e-l.
Q When and where were you born?
A I was born on 22 June 1905 in Hohensalza.
Q Will you please describe your curriculum vitae and your career in the Waffen-SS?
A I am a doctor of agriculture. After completion of my studies, and after having practiced that profession, I became an employee of the Agricultural Chamber in Berlin. Later on, I was with the milk supply offices in Berlin. In 1935 I was transferred to the Reichs Health Service and the food physiological department. That is where I became Regierungsrat. In 1939 I was transferred to the Ministry of the Interior in the Reich as an expert for food questions.
On the 15th of April, 1943, I was drafted into the Waffen-SS. I was first transferred to the artillery there and I fought at the front line in Russia. When I was drafted, I was selected as a leader by the officer in charge in Berlin. As I had an academic background, I also was administrative officer. Early in 1944, upon orders of the Operational Main Office, I was transferred to the leadership school of the Waffen-SS in Arolsen. That is where I completed my study.
In April, 1944, I was promoted to SS-Untersturmfuehrer.