That was the actual purpose, why the Special Task Troop was formed.
Q Witness, when did the budget of the Death Head Units and the concentration camps come into your sphere of task?
A That happened in 1936 when the Inspector of Concentration Camps and Death Head Units was invited to put together the first budget for the Reich, in order to enable the SS Administrative Office to submit this to the Ministry of the Interior. I wish to say briefly here that this blood-curdling term, "Death Head Units" was not coined to express that they should kill anybody and everybody. The term "Death Head Units" was a traditional name of the so-called Death Head Hussars, and it probably originated in the fact that we SS men before 1933 carried a cap which showed a death head, a skull. Eicke, who in 1936 was an inspector, had an administrative office and submitted to us, the Administrative Office of the SS, the first budget for the Reich. Up to that time Eicke himself had done this, because finance was, up to 1936, in the hands of the lands, the countries, the provinces. The SS was not concerned with this at all, the SS Administrative Office, that is.
Q. Now, what happened with that budget of the Death Head units and concentration camps, in the administrative offices?
A. As I said before, it was so formulated which was the correct one, ministerially speaking. Certain bureaucratic traditions had to be of served. It was, so to speak, re-changed into a ministerial document and then submitted to the Ministry of the Interior.
Q. And what did the Reich Ministry of the Interior do thereupon. (Witness, please make a small pause between my question and your answer)
A. The Reich Ministry of the Interior at that time had the task to look after the budget of the special tasks troops, also of the police, and to pass it on to the Reich Ministry of Finance. That was done in the following manner: The Reich Ministry of the Interior would collect all these budgets together, pass them on to the Reich Ministry of Finance, and then the Finance Ministry would be asked to appoint a day for a conference --which they did. The Reich Ministry of Finance invited people to a conference--or, rather, I am sorry--the Reich Ministry of the Interior invited the people to a conference, and the Reich Ministry of Finance was, of course, represented.
Q. Who, otherwise, took part in these conferences?
A. That was a somewhat motley crowd. Around the conference table when these budgets were discussed there would be twenty, twentyfive, or thirty persons; the Reich Minister of Finance, was represented by two or three civil servants under him. The Reich Minister of the Interior was represented; the Wehrmacht sent an observer. Then Pohl and I were represented--depending on who happened to be present. The Treasury Department was represented; the Reich Farmer's Estate was represented, and every case a representative of that troop which the debate was about. That is to say, when the Death Head units were being discussed and the concentration camps, Gruppenfuehrer Eicke would be personally present, with his chief of administration.
Q. Now, at such meetings was there always a unanimous decision?
A. One could not say so. Sometimes debates were very hot and stormy, particularly when the budget of the Death Head units and concentration camps were the topic. Eicke himself interfered in the debate and then very often stormy scenes would be the rule. I can recall a meeting, for instance, when Eicke wished to establish his fourth Death Head unit. Representatives of the ministry of finance opposed this for financial reasons. They thought that the existing troops should be sufficient for the fulfillment of their tasks of guarding the concentration camps. Finally Eicke said, after hours of debate: "Gentlemen, I act on Himmler's orders whether you accept my suggestions or not. I will not be interfered with when I carry out Himmler's orders."
Q. What did Eicke want to say by this?
A. I was somewhat puzzled at his attitude because, after all, the Ministry of Finance existed in order to regulate the Reich finances, including cases of this sort. But Eicke, without our knowledge had already recruited the people for the fourth Death Head unit, and he world have been extremely embarrassed if the Reich Ministry of Finance would not have granted the funds for the purpose. For that reason he became extremely rude--but he got away with it. The Reich Ministry of Finance gave in.
Q. How was it possible that Eicke could be so autocratic?
A. Eicke felt that Himmler would back him up and he never did bother about administrative details. He regarded us merely as people who world prevent his plans from being carried out. He quarreled with us. I know, for instance--I heard it later--that he supplemented his arms by using international gun runners in 1938 or 1939. He got hold of a large umber of heavy machine guns because it was his military ambition to be the leader of a troop. My impression was that Eicke had already given up the tasks of concentration camps and preferred to be the commander of an army unit, although he still was interested in using his privileges as inspector of concentration camps.
Q. What happened after the budget conference?
A. As is usual throughout the world, the Reich Minister of Finance issued a so-called budget. That budget lasted from April first of one year to April first of the next year, and contained the various items for all Reich agencies which would come under the Reich Ministry of Finance. After ten or twelve weeks after the budget conference, the budget accepted by the Reich Ministry of Finance would reach us in the administrative office. The budget for the special task troops would be kept back. I worked on that myself personally. And the budget for concentration camps and Death Head units were passed on to Eicke.
Q. In those budgets, were all items of expenditure singly contained: food, clothes, and so forth?
A. To the last pfennig, certainly: food, clothes, water, any detail was planned to the last penny to great detail.
Q. That was in peacetime?
A. Yes, yes; that was in peacetime.
Q. How, what did you do with that budget?
A. As I said before we worked on the budget of the special task troops down to the last detail... That is to say, we told the troops what they would be allowed to buy. Eicke did the same in his sector, and his administration had the task to see to it that the means were approved of by the Reich Ministry of Finance.
Q. And on the basis of that planning, did you receive monthly allocations?
A. Yes; I talk now, for instance, About the case of the concentration camps--which is of the greatest interest here--the administrative leaders of concentration camps would be given by Eicke an annual budget broken down into months, where the administrative leaders could see very precisely what they would be allowed to spend. And according to this plan they asked for their monies and spent it.
Q. Where did these funds come from?
A. From the Reich Ministry of Finance, direct.
Q. Do I understand you to the effect that the Reich Ministry of Finance was the agency which decided what sums could be spent and also provided the money? Is that correct?
A. That is correct, yes. In this trial the opinion has been expressed frequently that the SS provided us funds for concentration camps. Since 1 April 1943, it was only the Reich Ministry of Finance who would give the money to the Death Head units, the concentration camps, and the special task troops, down to the last penny. It was never done by the SS or the party. As I said before, before 1936 the financing was done by the provinces and we had nothing to do with it at all.
Q. From that time, do you know a case where the Reich Minister of Finance refused to finance concentration camps? Did he have the opportunity to do so?
A. No; the Reich Ministry of Finance, as a matter of principle, would never raise any doubts as to the financing of concentration camps, They did not concern themselves with the basic principles of financing-only the actual amount would be of interest. The financing itself was outside all debate. Of course, he would have had the possibility of giving his veto because after all he was the Reich Minister of Finance; he was the highest Reich official. He had the money at his disposal, and he would have been in a position, had he had moral misgivings about concentration camps, without any difficulty to refuse to finance concentration camps further. Perhaps this is a good moment for me to add that the Reich Minister of Finance, Graf Schwerin von Krosigk, was far from being a fanatical Nazi. He was a remnant of the second Reich. He was taken over as Reich Minister of Finance from the previous government, and had he had misgivings he would have been able to refuse because particularly that man, as I see it, was in a position to express a negative Opinion because, he was a highly educated man from an old German aristo cratic family, and he had studied in England for several years, at Eton College.
He had a great many friends in England, and he spoke English as well as he spoke German. If such a man had no misgivings about financing concentration camps then I did not have to have any misgivings, especially as I was never asked for opinion about this.
Q. Now, to talk about something quite different, when the war broke out were officers of the reserve at the disposal of the Waffen-SS for administrative purposes?
A. Do you mean officers of the Reserve who would have been sent to the front?
Q. Yes, for the administrative duties of the Waffen-SS in the war.
A. No, nothing had been done in that respect. In the Allgemeine -in the General SS, there were about 500 administrative leaders and these leaders of the General SS, as a matter of course, would have been the suitable administrative officers of these Special Task Troops, but, strangely enough. Himmler would never allow these administrative leaders of the General SS to take part in so-called Reserve maneuvers with the Death Head units or the Special Task units. He insisted that they as Reserve officers should -- as Swiss soldiers do -- take part in exercises lasting six to eight weeks with the Wehrmacht as Luftwaffe soldiers, and so forth.
Q. Therefore, the Special Task Troops and the Death Head Units in the field of Budget and administration were not prepared for the war, were they?
A. No, you can say that with the utmost certainty. Not one penny had been planned in the budget for the event of war. In my opinion, it should be possible to find the budget plans in the Reichsministry of Finance from the period of 1938 and 1939. From that it would become quite clear that not one penny was used for a bakery column, or commissary purposes, which is always necessary in war, for Reserve Officers, or staff officers, or even officers in the General Staff. The whole of the Special Task Troop in 1938 and 1939, shortly before the outbreak of the war, did not have a General Staff even, not one single staff officer. It had no provisions, nothing for that in 1938, in winter of 1938. The Special Task Troop was changed from a horse drawn troop to a mechanized troop a few months before the outbreak of the war, and its whole organization was changed. The stables which had been built at great expense in the barracks had been torn down and garages were built and the horse boys had to give up their horses and had to learn how to drive trucks, so that, therefore, we saw no reason to say that the Special Task Troop was a troop which had been well armed and prepared for war.
Q. How about your personal opinion at that time, whether war would break out or not?
A. My personal opinion was the same or even stronger perhaps. As a small intermezzo, perhaps, I could describe here that in 1939, the Spring of 1939, I was given an order, as any other officer of the Special Task Troop to buy a parade uniform; that was a sort of dress uniform which was rather rich in silver and that set me back by about 800 marks, that is, a whole monthly wage, and I never wore it once, because when the tailor finally delivered it, war broke out a week later. Another interesting example was that the Reichs Treasury official in the Spring of 1939 sent the various units to Nurnberg in order to prepare for the Reichs Party rally which was under the motto of peace. That might sound almost blasphemous under present conditions, but it is the truth. Programs had been printed. Tickets had been printed. The earlier units had been sent there already. Defendant Hans Loerner was one of the people who went there and, if in August, 1939, somebody had told me that war would break out four weeks later, I would laughed at him pitifully.
Q. To speak once more about financing of concentration camps, you told us just now that in 1936 the Inspector of Concentration Camps had submitted his first budget.
A. Yes, before then it had been the provinces', Prussia, Bavaria, Saxony. These provinces, Bavaria, Saxony, and Prussia, Eicke would negotiate with those countries directly. The Prussian Finance Minister had a permanent deputy or delegate with Eicke when ---
Q. Therefore, concentration camps existed for three years before the Administrative office started financing them?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you know how many concentration camps existed before the financing was transferred to the Reich?
A. No, I am unable to say that for certain, but what I can say is that in the first budget of 1936 the camps of Dachau, Sachsenhausen, Buchenwald, Ravensbrueck, Mauthausen, and Flossenbuerg were listed.
Q. Up to what period of time were you busy working on the budgets of concentration camps?
A. Up to the 1st of April, 1939.
Q. And how many concentration camps were there at that time?
A. I must make a correction of my previous statement. There were only five camps when I was connected with for the first time -- with the budget for concentration camps and when I handed it over, there were six camps, that is, the six which I have named before -- just now.
Q. What were your duties after 1 April 1939?
A. After 1 April 1939, I was, if I can put it that way -- more or less isolated. That was a most peculiar event in our organization which occurred at that time, and I can no longer explain how it came about. At that time I remained in Munich and Pohl with his closer collaborators went to Berlin and, as has been said before in this trial, on the 1st of April, 1939, he became Main Office Chief. In that Main Office, Budget and Construction, or whatever this strange phenomenon was called, very few of us understood really what this thing was about. I certainly did not go to Berlin and I had nothing to do with this affair.
Q. You therefore were not working in the Office of Budget and Building?
A. No.
Q. Now, where after the 1st of April, 1939, were the budgets of the Special Task Troops and Death Head Units, and the concentration camps worked on?
A. By the Office A-I, I think it was called, of Budget and Building.
Curt 2 Case 4
Q. What did you do in that period of time?
A. I remained up to the outbreak of war in Munich. I looked after the business side of the Special Task Troops up to a point. I was not immediately connected with it and then when war broke out I also went to Berlin. On 1 November 1939 I took over what was called the military administration of the SS Special Task Troops and Death Head Units, which had by that time become the Death Head Divisions. From that Administrative Office, which was a purely military administrative office there grew the Administration Office of the Waffen-SS, where I was in charge as a chief until 1 February 1942.
Q. And in that whole period of time, you had nothing to do with the budget of concentration camps and Death Head Units?
A. No, I did not have the slightest contact. It was a purely military agency dealing with supplies and other needs of a war machine.
Q. When were the budgets of the whole Waffen SS and concentration camps transferred back to you?
A. On 1 February 1942, I became -- I was charged with the whole office of the Waffen SS and I joined the so-called Main Office, that is, the WVHA. Not all my tasks went with me, as it were; all the duties which had, nothing to do with the ministerial side were transferred to below, and, instead we took over from the old Main Office Building and Construction, the budget tasks and the personnel tasks.
Q. What does that mean that only as far as the ministerial side was concerned did you work on budgets and that in actual effect everything was delegated to below. Do you wish to tell the court what you really mean?
A. The Special Tasks groups which have meanwhile become the Waffen SS grow from month to month. After the beginning of the war it had grown from about 40,000 men into a whole army. All one could do thereupon was to divide the tasks. The situation in 1942 was that the administrative offices of the Waffen SS, of which I was in charge at the time, either had to grow into a futile organization or had to be separated into ministerial tasks and into the tasks connected with the leading of troops. To take an example, the clothing of troops could no longer be directed from above. For 250,000 men it had to be done from some main office. At the ministerial level you had to allocate it, whereas the actual distribution was done by the administrative office in the main operational office.
Q. Who approved the expenditure of these items? Did you as earlier on have to account for every item of expense, clothing, feeding, and so forth, and did you have a clear order from the highest level?
A. No. In wartime the whole handling of this was entirely different. In the first year of the war the situation was that the previous budget of 1938 and 1939 was extended automatically. In 1940 no budget conference took place either because it would have been quite impossible. You would have had to contact the Reich Ministry of Finance once a month or once a week and tell them, "Please give me another hundred thousand marks. Himmler has just started another new regiment. We need more clothes." You would just have left the Reich Ministry of Finance and reached the office in order to confirm this when yet another problem would have arisen. Therefore, this whole thing was well-nigh impossible. The Reich Minister of Finance saw the point; and, just as he did with the OKW, he gave permission to the Main Office Budget of Building to spend such money as it needed to carry out its military tasks. The same applied to concentration camps. Concentration camps from the beginning of the war onwards did not have a regular budget. Expenditure could be effected by the administrative leaders in such a way as they occurred.
To give an example, in 1939 concentration camp X had 15,000 inmates, In peace-time should this concentration camp have been increased to 20,000 inmates an additional budget would have had to be submitted, which is to say that the Reich Ministry of Finance would have had to approve an additional or supplementary budget which would approve all expenditures for these 5,000 men. That, of course, could not be done in wartime, which is the reason why since the outbreak of war the socalled open and unrestricted budget was initiated. That is to say, expenditure did no longer need a budget approval, as it were.
Perhaps the Court may have its doubts because one might assume in that case any administrative leader of the concentration camps could do with the money what he wanted to; he could buy as his fancy took him. This, of course, was not the case. After all he was under oath that he would observe the general budget and treasury regulations. Besides, purchase in wartime was so limited and so dependent on material conditionals that the money question was of secondary importance. For instance, if he had to buy 5,000 beds, beds for inmates who had newly arrived, it was not important to find the money for the 5,000 beds. Much more important was the finding of the timber for the 5,000 beds. That was the urgent problem. Therefore, the budget details in wartime had fallen to nothing.
Q. Were there cases ever when approval and permission had become necessary from the WVHA or the Main Office Building and Budget?
A. Yes, only as far as constructions were concerned, and even there I have to modify my statement -- only in cases where massive new constructions were built, that is to say, all those buildings which were built of stone and cost probably more than 100,000 marks. In my affidavit I spoke only of 40,000 marks; but that was wrong. The documents have shown me indicating that I made a mistake.
THE TRIBUNAL (JUDGE MUSMANNO): Dr. Rauschenbach, doesn't it seem that possibly you are going into too much detail on these items? Now, you know with what the indictment charges your client and you know what the prosecution has advanced against him. Of course we are going to give you plenty of latitude, but wouldn't it be well if you could direct and channel your testimony into a reply to what the prosecution has presented and what the indictment charges your client with?
I'm afraid that we may get into a lot of detail which possibly is interesting but certainly doesn't help us too much in deciding the issue.
DR. RAUSCHENBACH: That will apply only to the beginning, your Honor.
THE TRIBUNAL (JUDGE MUSMANNO): Very well.
DR. RAUSCHENBACH: I shall now come immediately to the other things. I only wished to show the Court the difference which has to be made between the influence which Frank had in peacetime and in wartime on budget details, which, in a broader sense from the point of view of the indictment, is connected with conspiracy and finally covered by the words of the indictment that none of the accountants in Office Group A can escape the charge of murder. That was the reason why I went into detail with these budgets. I shall new deal with very much briefer subjects.
BY DR. RAUSCHENBACH:
Q. To sum up what we have said hitherto, Witness, the result is probably this, that for all practical intents and purposes in the three years of peace, 1936, 1937, and 1938, budgets for the Death Head units and concentration camps were in the hands of the Administrative Office SS.
A. Yes.
Q. And when you were again put in charge of these things an open budget had been introduced where the lower grade agencies could dispose of the matters quite freely; is that correct?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, in that period of time was it your impression that for the economic needs of the camp inmates not enough had been done?
A. Do you mean the time before the war or after the war?
Q. Let us start with the period before the war.
A. Lest the Tribunal reproach me again, I shall answer this question relatively briefly, although originally I intended to speak a little more broadly.
In my conviction and according to the evidence I have seen, which should be found in the Finance Ministry, actually, and as long as the conditions of humans in camps were looked after properly, the stay in a concentration camp, as I see it personally, could be quite definitely justified and the state justified in locking up in one of those camps its enemies whom it had to regard temporarily as such.
Q. In 1936 how much money was at the disposal of camps for each single inmate?
A. I can answer that question in the greatest detail because the figures had these strange proportions to one another. The budget for concentration camps in 1936 contained a total sum of 12,000,000 marks without what was known as the building needs. The figure of the inmates concerned was 12,000. That there were actually 12,000 I am unable to say, of course, because as a budget expert I was only interested in the maximum limit. Thus, for a man there was 1,000 marks, if you divide these sums by one another. With individual expenses it all amounted to about 1200.
Q. What had to be paid for with this sum?
A. Everything had to be paid for. Any personal needs of the inmate, his food, his laundry, his clothes, his shoes, his medical care, and any other needs, such as cinemas, radio -- which existed in peacetime in all camps as far as I know -- libraries, all these necessities had to be paid from the 1,000 or 12,00 marks.
Q. How much was earmarked for daily food rations?
A. That was precisely at 60 pfennig for an inmate who didn't work and for an inmate who worked, 80 pfennig.
Q. Will you please compare this with the wages paid out by the Reich Labor Service?
A. That is a good idea because otherwise the Court might think that the 60 pfennig is a very small sum. But the Reich Labor Service was given a daily scale of 72 pfennig for adolescents.
Q. What about the Wehrmacht?
A. The Wehrmacht paid 92 pfennig.
Q. In peacetime cull you feed the men adequately with eighty phennings?
A. Yes, indeed you could, that was entirely possible. If I had to cook for one-thousand men in peacetime, you could cook tasty food for eighty pfennings in peacetime; insofar as the present wages paid out today in German prisons the present time is the same as it was before the war, that is to say, sixty pfennings.
THE PRESIDENT: Recess, please.
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal is in recess fifteen minutes.
(Recess)
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal is again in session.
BY DR. RAUSCHENBACH:
Q. Witness, before the recess you said that approximately 1,200 Reichsmarks per year were spent for expenses for each inmate in the year of 1936 for example. Do you believe that particular amount, actually was used only for the inmates?
A. Yes, I am sure it was, because certain additional requests were also filed.
A. Arc you of the opinion that this amount was sufficient in order to take care of the inmates' health, hygienic and also cultural needs, in order to enable them to lead some sort of a existence worthy of a human being?
A. Yes, financially speaking it was absolutely possible, because at that time only about 1800 marks were put up for the German soldier, in other words, only 600 marks over what the inmates received, and it must not be forgotten that the soldier for military reasons alone had quite different needs than an inmate.
Q. Was anything done in the financial respect also for the families of the inmates?
A. I myself did not deal with that particular matter nor did the Inspectorate have anything to do with it but, I know, that there was a law that the wife of an inmate, or shall we say a man who had been sent to a concentration camp, could immediately apply to the community for a certain amount of money for support of the family, and she received that in addition, I know that the NSV, too, had received an order........
BY THE PRESIDENT:
Q. Did that also apply to inmates that were brought in from the cast?
THE WITNESS: Would you repeat the question please.
(The question was repeated by the interpreter.)
A. I couldn't tell that because I didn't know the laws, I didn't know the laws about the people from the east. I am speaking about the German conditions.
Q. You mean German inmates?
A. Yes.
Q. Of course, if a Jew was separated from his family in Cracow and sent to Nordhausen, you don't mean that the Reich made any provision for his family?
A. No, no, I don't say that.
BY DR. RAUSCHENBACH:
Q. I shall now come to something else, that is to document........
JUDGE PHILLIPS: Let me ask one question. I want to get it straight for the record.
BY JUDGE PHILLIPS:
Q. Witness, I want to know if I have this right. I understood you to say that up to and prior to 1936 that a German inmate in a concentration camp was allocated 60 phennings per day for sustenance if he were not working and 80 pfennigs per day if he was employed or was working, is that correct?
A. For food, yes.
Q. Just for food alone, and not for clothes?
A. Yes.
Q. What was the allocation after 1936, say, for instance, after the war began?
A. It was the same thing until the moment the war started.
Q. During the war what was the allocation?
A. From the moment of the outbreak of the war the sum of money was no longer important, but the food that was available. In other words, what was important and decisive was what the Reich Food Ministry had put at our disposal. That was the dominating factor and not how much any sector spent for it. In other words, if the Reich Food Ministry had allocated a certain amount of food for the inmates, which, through unusual circumstances, had become more expensive so that an amount of 70 to 90 pfennigs had to be spent on food per day, then the Administrative Leader could also say 90 pfennings. That was quite all right. The monetary limitations had been rescinded as of the outbreak of the war.
Q. In other words, after the war there was not any specific amount allocated, but they were supposed to furnish them sufficient food?
A. No, no. He could move from 60 pfennings up to a mark and a mark and a half.
Q. At his discretion?
A. No, it was not at his discretion, but it depended entirely on the allocation of food. Let us take another example, for instance the competent food office, that particular office that was responsible for the concentration camp, one day allocated say meat, fat, and other food which was more expensive. Then the food allocation on that particular day for the inmates could amount to 90 pfennigs. The following day there were perhaps only beans and potatoes there for allocation and then the cost could only be 40 pfennigs. In other words, the decisive factor was not how high the ration could be according to the monetary situation, but it was decided by what the Food Ministry had allocated. Those sums were paid by the Administrative Leader.
Q. In other words then, the Food Ministry could allocate food up to a certain amount or down as low as a certain amount, between those brackets for the concentration camp inmates?
A. Yes, the rations had been fixed, and the food was allocated within that margin. The Food Ministry did not bother about the cost of the Food.
Q. Now, who was responsible to see that they got the food that was allocated by the Food Ministry?
A. The Administrative Leader of the concentration camp.
Q. That was the camp commandant?
A. No, he was the manager of the accounts. He had to see to it that the food which had been allocated to him by the Food Ministry would actually reach the dishes, or shall we say the plates, of the inmates. The concentration camp commandant had the official supervision. That of course, meant that he also had to concern himself with that. If, for instance, the Administrative Leader through negligence let his potatoes become spoiled because he didn't stock them properly, then the concentration commandant could or had to warn him and also punish him because he did not take proper care of the particular ration he was allocated, and because he did not distribute it to the inmates.
Q. Who appointed the Administrative Leaders?
A. The Administrative Leader was named by the WVHA, that is, by the personnel main office. The WVHA made the suggestion, proposed him. The appointment was made by the personnel main office, and the assignment also.
Q. And under what amt in the WVHA was the Administrative Leader responsible, to report to?
A. You mean the man who made the suggestion? That was Pohl himself.
Q. No, you didn't -- I will ask the question again. To what branch of the WVHA was the Administrative Leader required to make his reports?
A. What report do you mean your Honor?
Q. The reports of the food allocation, what he did with the food in the concentration camps.
A. He had to make the report only when there were certain deficiencies. In other words, if everything worked out all right and the food was sufficient, then he did not have to write up a report, and he was not supposed to give one either.
Q. Well, who inspected him from the WVHA to see that he did that?
A. Would you repeat the question, please?
(The question was repeated by the interpreter.)