THE PRESIDENT: He is listed here as a witness. You are not expecting to call him as your witness?
DR. SEIDL: He is not my witness, but he will be examined by Dr. Rauschenbach, his own defense counsel as a witness, on his own behalf.
THE PRESIDENT: All right. With the exception of the witness--what was his name, the witness who is in the camp?
DR. SEIDL: SS Obergruppenfuehrer Hans Juettner; he was the Chief of the SS Main Leadership Office. I shall be able to forego all the other witnesses, although I shall reserve the right to submit an affidavit from one or two of those witnesses at a later date.
THE PRESIDENT: All right. The defendant Pohl rests his case with certain exceptions, with the right to call one more witness, Juettner, and to submit an unspecified number of documents. Very well.
DR. SEIDL: Yes, Your Honor.
Court No. II, Case No. 4.
DR. RAUSCHENBACH: Dr. Rauschenbach for the defendant August Frank. Your Honor, I would appreciate if the defendant August Frank be placed in the witness dock.
AUGUST FRANK, a witness, took the stand and testified as follows:
JUDGE MUSSMANO: Will you please raise your right hand and repeat after me: I swear by God, the Almighty and Omniscient, that I will speak the pure truth, and will withhold and add nothing. (The witness repeated the oath) You may be seated.
BY DR. RAUSCHENBACH:
Q Witness, will you tell me in a few short terms your curriculum vitae up to 1933?
A I was born on 5 April 1898 in Augsburg in Bavaria as the fifth child of my family. My father who worked as a simple railroad man and through plain diligence, climbed as high as an official for a railroad, and was a man of a few words, but due to this hard struggle for life in order to feed a family of nine people, his health suffered very early. After the fourth grade, I already had to break up my studies in order to start some sort of a practical profession in order to be able to withdraw from my father some of the support. Right in the middle of my training in which I was being trained in business the world war broke out. Up to 1916 I was still working as commercial clerk, and in 1916 I became a soldier. Then for a period of twentythree months I was at the Western Front without any interruption as a front soldier. In 1918 I returned after the end of the war as a NCO. In 1918 my oldest brother was killed in action, and that is how I became the head of the family, so to say according to age. In 1919 my father died. In 1920 I had decided to join the Bavarian Country Police because the bad times did not make the commercial profession very promising. In 1923 I got married, and in the following years, that is, from 1923 till about 1927 I may say through sacrifices in both material and physical respects, I completed my education, which I had to give up Court No. II, Case No. 4.due to the difficult situation at the time, and by studying at night I was able to complete it almost entirely.
Then up to 1930 I was a member of the Bavarian Landespolizei, the Bavarian Land and Country Police, and I resigned from that position after twelve years of service.
Q Do I understand from your statement correctly that before 1933 you were in the Army for twelve years, and after that you served another nine and one-half years in the Bavarian Landespolizei?
A Yes, that is correct, in the Bavarian Land and Country Police. It was organized in a military manner, and it was being lead by Oberst von Seisser, who was a very important man, and who became known later on when he eliminated the Hitler Putsch. That is when I started my military career. I received a full training in all branches of military administration, and, I had the possibility to acquaint myself with that particular branch of the service.
Q Why was it that you resigned in 1930 from the Landespolizei?
A I did that for two reasons. The first reason was the fact that I as Police Secretary held the rank of a Lieutenant, and my pay amounted to only one-hundred seventy marks per month. As we said in Germany, that was not enough to live on and was too much to die on. The second reason was that the prospects for advancement were so to say zero, because that unit of police amounted to 10,000 men, and therefore, they only had a small number of positions and unfortunately these positions were occupied by young people. In other words, I could figure it out very well, that practically speaking that to await a promotion from lieutenant to a captain, I would either have gray hairs, or no hair at all, because I could not possibly have a promotion within the next twenty years. Then I resigned from the Bavarian Landespolizei, and due to having renounced this career, I received a compensation or compensation in the amount of ten-thousand marks.
Q Did you have a better life when you were a civilian?
A Yes, yes indeed. In the first year I organized a business that flourished. However, unfortunately I had the misfortune in 1931, Court No. II, Case No. 4.the time of the deepest depression to become involved in it.
I had money owing to me. I could not get it because those who borrowed it were under difficulty themselves. That was why in the Autumn of 1931 I just the same as some other German business managers, I had to become bankrupt, and to give up my business.
Q Were you unemployed then?
A No, I was not unemployed. I never in my life received compensation for unemployment, but I always tried with all means at my disposal to get through both for myself and my family. That is why in the Winter I was represented to firms, and I was travelling salesman, and in the Summer I was teacher of calisthenics, and also I was a lifeguard, and that is how I earned my living.
Q When did you join the SS?
A I joined the Allgemeine-SS in May 1932. A little later on, I became full-time member.
Q How was it that you joined the SS on a full-time basis?
A I joined the Allgemeine-SS due to various reasons. The general situation of the suffering I saw around me, the million of unemployed, the number which kept increasing; the danger of communism; all those things induced me to join the Allgemeine-SS. However, when I joined it on a full time basis there were other reasons, namely, for professional reasons. I learned from a SS-comrade that the Economic Office at the time in Munich was looking for experts in Army Administration, or, generally speaking for the administration. As I thought myself qualified for that position I wrote a letter to them, or rather I applied for that position to Obergruppenfuehrer Schneider. He was Pohl's precedessor. In April 1933 he actually employed me as a full time SS-man. I might add here for limitation that so far as the pay was concerned, I was only getting paid three marks a day at the beginning of the time.
Q Why was it that you were simply an SS-man although you had been a soldier for twelve years already, had resigned from the Landes Court No. II, Case No. 4.polizei with a rank of an officer?
A Yes, the reason was the following: When I joined the SS I went to see SS-Brigadefuehrer -- I can not recall the name at the present moment -- yes, SS-Brigadefuehrer Seidt-Dittmarsch, he was the commander of my particular unit, he was the chief or representative of the SS Main Offices, of which the Administration Office was part. When, I applied for that job I admitted that one of my brother-in-laws was Jewish, so he had certain misgivings to confirming my employment. However, after all he did approve it after telling me I had to begin my career as a simple SS-man. I had already interrupted my connections, and I agreed with that particular clause.
JUDGE MUSSMANO: What happened eventually with your brotherin-law?
THE PRESIDENT: One moment. I am advised that the recording tape has run out, and they will have to start in on a new spool, which we will do at 1:45.
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal is in recess until 1:45.
(A recess was taken until 1345, 5 June 1947).
AFTERNOON SESSION (The hearing reconvened at 1345 hours, 5 June 1947)
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal is again in session.
AUGUST FRANK (Resumed) DIRECT EXAMINATION (Continued) BY DR. RAUSCHENBACH:
Q. Witness, before the recess I asked you why you were employed as a simple SS man although you had left the regular police as an officer, and you told me the reason had been because members of your family had intermarried with Jews. Will you please explain the details to me?
A. The Court asked me before what the fate of my brother-in-law had been. Let me tell you this in three brief sentences:
I knew my brother-in-law, Philipp Rosenberger, since 1931, that is to say, from a time when I had not yet had any contact with the SS, In the summer of 1932, my sister -- to whom I was like a father, as I explained before --- told me she wished to marry Phillip Rosenberger. I knew Phillip as a very industrious and decent merchant whose family had, for four generations, been living in Dresden, and I agreed to the marriage. I continued my contact with him although it decreased during 1933 and 1936, and I admit that I approached my sister with the idea that she should obtain a divorce from here husband. She told me at the time, "No; I shared the good years with my husband, and therefore I wish to share the less good years with him too."
My brother -in-law and my sister lived in Dresden without interference up to 1939. He was employed in his father's firm, Jewish commercial people had very few prospects of doing good business; therefore, my brother -in-law approached me to help him to emigrate. Once again I admit frankly that I tried to influence my sister again to obtain a divorce and not to share with her husband the uncertain fate of a refugee. However, my sister persisted with her decision and there was nothing I could do. All I did was to help them with their emigration, and the result was that they emigrated to Milan without being interfered with.
From that time onwards I heard very little about them.
My sister told me that her husband had wanted to go to Southern Italy from Milan in order to build up a new life for himself there. Should he not succeed in doing so, he would emigrate to Palestine. where she would follow him later on.
To sum this up from the very scarce news I had from them, my sister heard nothing from her husband for six months and then she received a brief communication that her husband had been arrested by the Italian Secret Police and been put into a camp. I believe, on an island. From that day onwards my sister heard no more from her husband, nor do I believe that she has any news of him now. She is still waiting to hear, but I don't believe there is much hope. Whether my brother-in-law perished in that camp, or whether he was lost on route to Palestine, I am unable to say.
When I escaped in 1945 I wanted to join my sister in Italy in order to hide with her, but I was prevented from doing so for a variety of reasons. Meanwhile, however, I had reestablished contact with my sister and, without my asking her to do so, she gave me an affidavit from the Italian Police, where she confirms more or less what I have told the Court just now.
BY JUDGE MUSMANNO:
Q. Where is your sister now?
A. In Bresano, Italy, together with her child. She is well off; she is employed in a cinema. Her little daughter speaks Italian as well as she speaks German, and she is an interpreter with the British Military Government.
Q Did you have any trouble during the time that you were a Lietuenant General in the SS and Deputy Chief of WVHA, in reconciling your present position, which was committed to persecution, and in some ways, whether you did or did not actively participate in it, to the extermination of the Jews, and the fact that one of this despised race was regarded by you with such high favor that you took him into the bosom of your family and had him marry your sister whom you loved as a child?
A That question is justified. The Reichsfuehrer referred only once to the fact that I had Jewish relatives. That was at the beginning of the war when I was a Major General. At that time, as I shall explain later on, I was purely a soldier, and I said at the time that I had lost contact with my sister, that my sister had emigrated, and that was that as far as the Reichsfuehrer was concerned. As far as the other matters concerning, your Honor, my personal attitude about the question of extermination, might I ask to be allowed to give my answer later on when we reach the document by which I am incriminated in that respect?
JUDGE MUSSMANO: Very well.
BY DR. RAUSCHENBACH:
Q Did you at that time in 1939, when you were an SS leader, did you not endanger your position when you sponsored the emigration of your brother-in-law?
A I think endangering is saying too much. The only thing I had to be afraid of was that the Reichsfuehrer would find out I didn't keep my promise which was to break off all contact with my sister. The emigration as such I sponsored through a method which nobody could find out about. I used intermediary persons for the purpose.
Q Now, what is the explanation of your unusual career? In ten years you were promoted from a lieutenant to a General.
A True. The explanation probably is that I was one of the very few people in the SS who were experts in military administration. Also when I became a Major General I had been a soldier for more than twenty years.
Q Now, I shall refer to your affidavit which is Document NO-1576, and it is Exhibit No. 4. in Document Book I, Page 12 in both the English and the German versions. There you say that by assuming the name of Franz Mueller you managed to stay at large until 17 December 1946.
A Quite right. I was at that time a chief. At the time of the surrender, that is, I was Chief of the Police Administration, or rather the Administrative Police, and in that capacity there were under my direction the police agency at Munich. I was the highest chief, as it were, from a ministerial point of view, for the so-called passport agency, apart from a good many others, such as food police, administrative police, market police, registration police, etc. In that capacity it was an easy thing for me to obtain the necessary paper in the last two days before to the collapse, and armed with that paper I managed to hide for a bit. As I said before, I wanted to go to Italy to join my sister, but I did not succeed in doing so because Austria at that time sealed off its frontiers hermetically, and I had to pass through Austria. It was no longer possible to do so. I stayed near the frontier for some time, and strange to say I was employed by the Americans in a job, they not realizing that I was an SS-Obergruppenfuehrer. Under my assumed name as a simple workman I worked under the Americans for four or five months in a concrete factory. No harm was done to me because although the work was hard and severe I gained insight into the social conditions of a simple workman, one of the most difficult and dangerous professions from a medical point of view.
Q Witness, that, I think, is sufficient about that subject. In the last months of the war did you attempt ever, by using your position in southern Germany, to work towards a premature end of the war?
A No, unhappily I did not. As most of the other defendants here, I am bound to say, or even I may say, that we did not worry about escaping or about deserting.
We did our duty until the collapse, although I personally had been realizing for some time in my position as Chief of the Army Administration, Chief of the German Police Administration, as Chief of the whole of the supply services for German Armed Forces, that the war had been lost for Germany, but my duties in the last days and last weeks were not concerned with saving the issue, but to give the food, the bread, to the soldiers right up to the last day. I believe I shall have an opportunity of saying more about this.
Q Now to talk about something else, up to 1935 in the Administrative Office of the SS you worked on the treasury and budget duties of the Allgemeine-SS?
A Yes. In '33 and '34 up to the summer of 1935 I was working on manifold duties. As I said, there were so few experts working there, apart from Pohl I was practically the only one at the time who knew anything at all of what might be called military administration, and I had to help out everywhere in order to establish the treasury departments, to start the books, and altogether to get the whole thing going from a technical point of view. In '35 Pohl, under whom I was working at the time, told me, I was then chief of a department, "Frank, what you have to do now is to draw up a budget for the so-called SS Special Task Troops." That Special Task Troop, the Verfuegungstruppe, consisted of three battalions at the time. I did so. I drew up the budget in the way I had learned it and submitted it to the Ministry of Finance and the Ministry of the Interior. I myself in 1937 was made part of the Special Task Troop with the rank equivalent to that of a Lieutenant Colonel.
Q Will you please explain to the Court what the SS Special Task Troop was?
A The SS Special Task Troop, the Verfuegungstruppe, was maintained at the time as a representative body around the Fuehrer. That is to say, whenever Hitler came to Munich or to Stuttgart or anywhere else, a big city, a battalion or regiment of the Special Task Tropp was used as a parading unit, as a protective and security unit for his personal protection.
That was the actual purpose, why the Special Task Troop was formed.
Q Witness, when did the budget of the Death Head Units and the concentration camps come into your sphere of task?
A That happened in 1936 when the Inspector of Concentration Camps and Death Head Units was invited to put together the first budget for the Reich, in order to enable the SS Administrative Office to submit this to the Ministry of the Interior. I wish to say briefly here that this blood-curdling term, "Death Head Units" was not coined to express that they should kill anybody and everybody. The term "Death Head Units" was a traditional name of the so-called Death Head Hussars, and it probably originated in the fact that we SS men before 1933 carried a cap which showed a death head, a skull. Eicke, who in 1936 was an inspector, had an administrative office and submitted to us, the Administrative Office of the SS, the first budget for the Reich. Up to that time Eicke himself had done this, because finance was, up to 1936, in the hands of the lands, the countries, the provinces. The SS was not concerned with this at all, the SS Administrative Office, that is.
Q. Now, what happened with that budget of the Death Head units and concentration camps, in the administrative offices?
A. As I said before, it was so formulated which was the correct one, ministerially speaking. Certain bureaucratic traditions had to be of served. It was, so to speak, re-changed into a ministerial document and then submitted to the Ministry of the Interior.
Q. And what did the Reich Ministry of the Interior do thereupon. (Witness, please make a small pause between my question and your answer)
A. The Reich Ministry of the Interior at that time had the task to look after the budget of the special tasks troops, also of the police, and to pass it on to the Reich Ministry of Finance. That was done in the following manner: The Reich Ministry of the Interior would collect all these budgets together, pass them on to the Reich Ministry of Finance, and then the Finance Ministry would be asked to appoint a day for a conference --which they did. The Reich Ministry of Finance invited people to a conference--or, rather, I am sorry--the Reich Ministry of the Interior invited the people to a conference, and the Reich Ministry of Finance was, of course, represented.
Q. Who, otherwise, took part in these conferences?
A. That was a somewhat motley crowd. Around the conference table when these budgets were discussed there would be twenty, twentyfive, or thirty persons; the Reich Minister of Finance, was represented by two or three civil servants under him. The Reich Minister of the Interior was represented; the Wehrmacht sent an observer. Then Pohl and I were represented--depending on who happened to be present. The Treasury Department was represented; the Reich Farmer's Estate was represented, and every case a representative of that troop which the debate was about. That is to say, when the Death Head units were being discussed and the concentration camps, Gruppenfuehrer Eicke would be personally present, with his chief of administration.
Q. Now, at such meetings was there always a unanimous decision?
A. One could not say so. Sometimes debates were very hot and stormy, particularly when the budget of the Death Head units and concentration camps were the topic. Eicke himself interfered in the debate and then very often stormy scenes would be the rule. I can recall a meeting, for instance, when Eicke wished to establish his fourth Death Head unit. Representatives of the ministry of finance opposed this for financial reasons. They thought that the existing troops should be sufficient for the fulfillment of their tasks of guarding the concentration camps. Finally Eicke said, after hours of debate: "Gentlemen, I act on Himmler's orders whether you accept my suggestions or not. I will not be interfered with when I carry out Himmler's orders."
Q. What did Eicke want to say by this?
A. I was somewhat puzzled at his attitude because, after all, the Ministry of Finance existed in order to regulate the Reich finances, including cases of this sort. But Eicke, without our knowledge had already recruited the people for the fourth Death Head unit, and he world have been extremely embarrassed if the Reich Ministry of Finance would not have granted the funds for the purpose. For that reason he became extremely rude--but he got away with it. The Reich Ministry of Finance gave in.
Q. How was it possible that Eicke could be so autocratic?
A. Eicke felt that Himmler would back him up and he never did bother about administrative details. He regarded us merely as people who world prevent his plans from being carried out. He quarreled with us. I know, for instance--I heard it later--that he supplemented his arms by using international gun runners in 1938 or 1939. He got hold of a large umber of heavy machine guns because it was his military ambition to be the leader of a troop. My impression was that Eicke had already given up the tasks of concentration camps and preferred to be the commander of an army unit, although he still was interested in using his privileges as inspector of concentration camps.
Q. What happened after the budget conference?
A. As is usual throughout the world, the Reich Minister of Finance issued a so-called budget. That budget lasted from April first of one year to April first of the next year, and contained the various items for all Reich agencies which would come under the Reich Ministry of Finance. After ten or twelve weeks after the budget conference, the budget accepted by the Reich Ministry of Finance would reach us in the administrative office. The budget for the special task troops would be kept back. I worked on that myself personally. And the budget for concentration camps and Death Head units were passed on to Eicke.
Q. In those budgets, were all items of expenditure singly contained: food, clothes, and so forth?
A. To the last pfennig, certainly: food, clothes, water, any detail was planned to the last penny to great detail.
Q. That was in peacetime?
A. Yes, yes; that was in peacetime.
Q. How, what did you do with that budget?
A. As I said before we worked on the budget of the special task troops down to the last detail... That is to say, we told the troops what they would be allowed to buy. Eicke did the same in his sector, and his administration had the task to see to it that the means were approved of by the Reich Ministry of Finance.
Q. And on the basis of that planning, did you receive monthly allocations?
A. Yes; I talk now, for instance, About the case of the concentration camps--which is of the greatest interest here--the administrative leaders of concentration camps would be given by Eicke an annual budget broken down into months, where the administrative leaders could see very precisely what they would be allowed to spend. And according to this plan they asked for their monies and spent it.
Q. Where did these funds come from?
A. From the Reich Ministry of Finance, direct.
Q. Do I understand you to the effect that the Reich Ministry of Finance was the agency which decided what sums could be spent and also provided the money? Is that correct?
A. That is correct, yes. In this trial the opinion has been expressed frequently that the SS provided us funds for concentration camps. Since 1 April 1943, it was only the Reich Ministry of Finance who would give the money to the Death Head units, the concentration camps, and the special task troops, down to the last penny. It was never done by the SS or the party. As I said before, before 1936 the financing was done by the provinces and we had nothing to do with it at all.
Q. From that time, do you know a case where the Reich Minister of Finance refused to finance concentration camps? Did he have the opportunity to do so?
A. No; the Reich Ministry of Finance, as a matter of principle, would never raise any doubts as to the financing of concentration camps, They did not concern themselves with the basic principles of financing-only the actual amount would be of interest. The financing itself was outside all debate. Of course, he would have had the possibility of giving his veto because after all he was the Reich Minister of Finance; he was the highest Reich official. He had the money at his disposal, and he would have been in a position, had he had moral misgivings about concentration camps, without any difficulty to refuse to finance concentration camps further. Perhaps this is a good moment for me to add that the Reich Minister of Finance, Graf Schwerin von Krosigk, was far from being a fanatical Nazi. He was a remnant of the second Reich. He was taken over as Reich Minister of Finance from the previous government, and had he had misgivings he would have been able to refuse because particularly that man, as I see it, was in a position to express a negative Opinion because, he was a highly educated man from an old German aristo cratic family, and he had studied in England for several years, at Eton College.
He had a great many friends in England, and he spoke English as well as he spoke German. If such a man had no misgivings about financing concentration camps then I did not have to have any misgivings, especially as I was never asked for opinion about this.
Q. Now, to talk about something quite different, when the war broke out were officers of the reserve at the disposal of the Waffen-SS for administrative purposes?
A. Do you mean officers of the Reserve who would have been sent to the front?
Q. Yes, for the administrative duties of the Waffen-SS in the war.
A. No, nothing had been done in that respect. In the Allgemeine -in the General SS, there were about 500 administrative leaders and these leaders of the General SS, as a matter of course, would have been the suitable administrative officers of these Special Task Troops, but, strangely enough. Himmler would never allow these administrative leaders of the General SS to take part in so-called Reserve maneuvers with the Death Head units or the Special Task units. He insisted that they as Reserve officers should -- as Swiss soldiers do -- take part in exercises lasting six to eight weeks with the Wehrmacht as Luftwaffe soldiers, and so forth.
Q. Therefore, the Special Task Troops and the Death Head Units in the field of Budget and administration were not prepared for the war, were they?
A. No, you can say that with the utmost certainty. Not one penny had been planned in the budget for the event of war. In my opinion, it should be possible to find the budget plans in the Reichsministry of Finance from the period of 1938 and 1939. From that it would become quite clear that not one penny was used for a bakery column, or commissary purposes, which is always necessary in war, for Reserve Officers, or staff officers, or even officers in the General Staff. The whole of the Special Task Troop in 1938 and 1939, shortly before the outbreak of the war, did not have a General Staff even, not one single staff officer. It had no provisions, nothing for that in 1938, in winter of 1938. The Special Task Troop was changed from a horse drawn troop to a mechanized troop a few months before the outbreak of the war, and its whole organization was changed. The stables which had been built at great expense in the barracks had been torn down and garages were built and the horse boys had to give up their horses and had to learn how to drive trucks, so that, therefore, we saw no reason to say that the Special Task Troop was a troop which had been well armed and prepared for war.
Q. How about your personal opinion at that time, whether war would break out or not?
A. My personal opinion was the same or even stronger perhaps. As a small intermezzo, perhaps, I could describe here that in 1939, the Spring of 1939, I was given an order, as any other officer of the Special Task Troop to buy a parade uniform; that was a sort of dress uniform which was rather rich in silver and that set me back by about 800 marks, that is, a whole monthly wage, and I never wore it once, because when the tailor finally delivered it, war broke out a week later. Another interesting example was that the Reichs Treasury official in the Spring of 1939 sent the various units to Nurnberg in order to prepare for the Reichs Party rally which was under the motto of peace. That might sound almost blasphemous under present conditions, but it is the truth. Programs had been printed. Tickets had been printed. The earlier units had been sent there already. Defendant Hans Loerner was one of the people who went there and, if in August, 1939, somebody had told me that war would break out four weeks later, I would laughed at him pitifully.
Q. To speak once more about financing of concentration camps, you told us just now that in 1936 the Inspector of Concentration Camps had submitted his first budget.
A. Yes, before then it had been the provinces', Prussia, Bavaria, Saxony. These provinces, Bavaria, Saxony, and Prussia, Eicke would negotiate with those countries directly. The Prussian Finance Minister had a permanent deputy or delegate with Eicke when ---
Q. Therefore, concentration camps existed for three years before the Administrative office started financing them?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you know how many concentration camps existed before the financing was transferred to the Reich?
A. No, I am unable to say that for certain, but what I can say is that in the first budget of 1936 the camps of Dachau, Sachsenhausen, Buchenwald, Ravensbrueck, Mauthausen, and Flossenbuerg were listed.
Q. Up to what period of time were you busy working on the budgets of concentration camps?
A. Up to the 1st of April, 1939.
Q. And how many concentration camps were there at that time?
A. I must make a correction of my previous statement. There were only five camps when I was connected with for the first time -- with the budget for concentration camps and when I handed it over, there were six camps, that is, the six which I have named before -- just now.
Q. What were your duties after 1 April 1939?
A. After 1 April 1939, I was, if I can put it that way -- more or less isolated. That was a most peculiar event in our organization which occurred at that time, and I can no longer explain how it came about. At that time I remained in Munich and Pohl with his closer collaborators went to Berlin and, as has been said before in this trial, on the 1st of April, 1939, he became Main Office Chief. In that Main Office, Budget and Construction, or whatever this strange phenomenon was called, very few of us understood really what this thing was about. I certainly did not go to Berlin and I had nothing to do with this affair.
Q. You therefore were not working in the Office of Budget and Building?
A. No.
Q. Now, where after the 1st of April, 1939, were the budgets of the Special Task Troops and Death Head Units, and the concentration camps worked on?
A. By the Office A-I, I think it was called, of Budget and Building.
Curt 2 Case 4
Q. What did you do in that period of time?
A. I remained up to the outbreak of war in Munich. I looked after the business side of the Special Task Troops up to a point. I was not immediately connected with it and then when war broke out I also went to Berlin. On 1 November 1939 I took over what was called the military administration of the SS Special Task Troops and Death Head Units, which had by that time become the Death Head Divisions. From that Administrative Office, which was a purely military administrative office there grew the Administration Office of the Waffen-SS, where I was in charge as a chief until 1 February 1942.
Q. And in that whole period of time, you had nothing to do with the budget of concentration camps and Death Head Units?
A. No, I did not have the slightest contact. It was a purely military agency dealing with supplies and other needs of a war machine.
Q. When were the budgets of the whole Waffen SS and concentration camps transferred back to you?
A. On 1 February 1942, I became -- I was charged with the whole office of the Waffen SS and I joined the so-called Main Office, that is, the WVHA. Not all my tasks went with me, as it were; all the duties which had, nothing to do with the ministerial side were transferred to below, and, instead we took over from the old Main Office Building and Construction, the budget tasks and the personnel tasks.
Q. What does that mean that only as far as the ministerial side was concerned did you work on budgets and that in actual effect everything was delegated to below. Do you wish to tell the court what you really mean?