THE PRESIDENT: Let us see what we have here, Mr. McHaney, in the way of documents. The next two books, the only other two books we have seem to be numbed 7 and 9. Would that be possible?
MR. McHANEY: It could be possible, Your Honor. The Prosecution is in possession of Book 5. I do not think the Prosecution has Book 6. I think Book 5 has been distributed, but, of course, I am not sure that you have actually received it.
THE PRESIDENT: No. We have not. We have left 7 and 8.
MR. McHANEY: Seven and Eight. My understanding is that certainly you will get 5 today. You should have it already, and I think 6, also. I think tomorrow we should be able to dispose of those two books.
At the present time, since I think some of Defense Counsel do not have Book 5 either, we might call this witness who is outside now, have him sworn and get his name and other preliminary matters, and then continue with him tomorrow morning.
THE PRESIDENT: Why not do the whole business tomorrow morning, ** you are going to stop after his name?
MR. McHANEY: We will continue until the adjournment time, Your Honor. We are prepared to go ahead.
THE PRESIDENT: That is not so vital. If we are going to just take him partway, let us start in with a clean slate tomorrow morning.
MR. McHANEY: Very well, Your Honor.
THE PRESIDENT: Adjournment seems to be indicated until 9:30 hours tomorrow morning.
(Hearing recessed until 0930 hours 10 April 1947)
Official Transcript of the American Military Tribunal in the matter of the United States of America, against Oswald Pohl, et al, defendants, sitting at Nurnberg, Germany, on 10 April 1947, 0930 1630, Justice Toms, presiding.
THE MARSHAL: All persons in Court please take your seats.
The Honorable, the Judges of Military Tribunal No. 2.
Military Tribunal No. 2 is now in session. God save the United States of America and this Honorable Tribunal.
There will be order in the Court.
THE PRESIDENT: Mr. Marshal, you will please ascertain if the defendants are all present.
THE MARSHAL: May it please your Honors, all the defendants are present in the courtroom
THE PRESIDENT: The proper notation will be made. The Prosecution may proceed.
MR. McHANEY: May it please the Tribunal, I will ask the Marshal be directed to summon the Witness Karl Kahr, K-A-H-R.
(The marshal summoned the Witness.)
THE PRESIDENT: The Witness will raise his right hand and repeat after me.
I swear by God, the Almighty and Omniscient, that I will speak the pure truth and will withhold and add nothing.
(The witness repeated the oath).
THE PRESIDENT: You may be seated.
DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. McHANEY:
Q. Witness, your name is Karl Kahr?
A. Yes.
Q. You are a German national?
A. I am an Austrian citizen.
Q. You were born in 1914 at Fuerstenfeld, Austria?
A. Yes.
Q. Are you presently in American custody?
A. Yes.
Q. What is your profession?
A. I am a doctor.
Q. Were you a member of the SS?
A. Yes.
Q. When did you join the SS?
A. In 1940, that is in July, I joined the Waffen SS.
Q. And you acted as a doctor in the SS?
A. Yes.
Q. Did there come a time when you were assigned as a doctor to a concentration camp?
A. Yes.
Q. When was that?
A. That was in 1943, namely in January or February.
Q. And what concentration camp were you assigned to?
A. First of all it was Dachau and the camp at Dora.
Q. What?
A. Dora.
Q. How long were you in Dachau, Witness?
A. I was at Dachau for nine months, and in 1944 I went to Dora.
Q. Did you yo to Dora in January 1944?
A. I did not understand your question.
(The question was repeated to the witness by the interpreter)
A. Yes.
Q. And how long did you stay at Dora?
A. Until Christmas 1944.
Q. And were you subordinated in medical matters while you were in Dora?
A. In medical matters I was first under the stabsarzt of Buchenwald.
Q. What was his name?
A. Dr. Schidlausky.
Q. And were you ultimately subordinated to Dr. Lolling of the WVHA?
A. Yes.
Q. Dr. Lolling was chief of Amtsgruppe D-III in the WVHA?
A. Yes.
Q. Was Dora a sub-camp of Buchenwald when you first arrived there in January 1944?
A. Yes.
Q. Was it ultimately - did it ultimately become a concentration camp in itself known as Nordhausen?
A. Yes.
Q. When did it become know as Nordhausen?
A. In autumn 1944.
Q. Was it not then centrally administered by the WVHA?
A. Well, the administration in itself was self-sufficient. However, it was subordinate to the WVHA.
Q. Now, then, how big was Dora? How many inmates did it have when you first arrived there?
A. Ten thousand of them.
Q. And what was being done at Dora?
A. First of all quarry work was done in Dora; namely, subterranean tunnels were built. Then weapons were produced.
Q. And what was produced?
A. The weapons.
Q. Now, under whose control was this construction and production work carried out?
A. The factory's name was Mittelwerk.
Q. Is the name of Obergruppenfuehrer kammler familiar to you?
A. Yes.
Q. Did Kammler have control over construction and production work at Dora?
A. Yes, he did.
Q. Was Kammler the chief of Amtsgruppe C of the WVHA?
A. I don't know what group the Group C was but I know that Kammler was the chief of the Office for Construction.
Q. Now, will you tell us what living conditions you found when you arrived in Dora in January 1944; that is, living conditions of the inmates?
A. When I arrived in Dora in January 1944, I was horrified by the living conditions which I saw there and which prevailed for the inmates. In no way had any people been worried about the billets, nor did they worry about their clothing which they needed for their hard work, nor did they take care of any sanitary installations. Out of the 10,000 inmates at the time at least 7,000 of them had to live under the earth; that is, in these specially built tunnels. Only 3,000 of them had the possibility to see the sunlight in the camp and to live in barracks. In addition, it so happened that the inmates during the twelve-hour shift had to work in the tunnels and had to spend their leisure time in a tunnel nearby. For the sick inmates, while I was there, there were only four barracks for the sick which had the very least equipment that could be expected so that due to the great, large number of sick inmates it was almost impossible to take care of these inmates. Furthermore, due to bad clothing and bad shoes they had great injuries which occurred while they were working on these pointed stones and the inmates were very badly fed. As they were very badly fed, they did not have the good resistance to these diseases, so that the infections on their legs were at a horrible extent. I myself was a doctor. During my activities prior to that I had never seen such infections. When I arrived there I drew somebody's attention to those infections. I was answered that these were higher things and that it did not matter how many human beings would lose their lives in those mines. The first thing that was important was to carry out the construction program and only slowly and by and by did I suceed with the help of the chief director or manager of the works to get better billets and also to improve the sick barracks so that only in the course of that year, perhaps in May or June, there was a decrease in the death rate and the sick rate and only in May perhaps or June all the units could live in the barracks over there during the day.
The food in that camp was the usual bad food which is known in the concentration camps and only those inmates who used to work in the armament factories there received a special allocation of food. However, the basic ration in itself was bad and consisted for the greatest part in the normal food with a lot of liquids.
Q. Doctor, let's go back just a moment. When you arrived, there were 10,000 inmates working at Dora, is that right?
A. Ten thousand were there at the camp at the time. That is right.
Q. And what nationality were these inmates?
A. At that time all nations were represented at that camp who could be seen in the German concentration camps at the time.
Q. And were there any prisoners of war?
A. Prisoners of war? No, according to my recollection there were a few Italian prisoners of war.
Q. Were there any Russian prisoners of war there?
A. There were also Russian prisoners of war there; however, they were not considered as prisoners of war but as concentration camp inmates.
Q Were there many French prisoners at Dora?
A Yes, there were.
Q Approximately what proportion of the 10,000 would you say were French? Could you give any estmate?
A I cannot give you a correct figure, because I do not remember all the figures. However, I can only add that out of the 10,000 concentration camp inmates, six to seven hundred of them were Germans and all the others were foreigners.
Q You stated that 70 per cent of these inmates had to sleep in the tunnels, is that correct?
A Yes.
Q Was it damp in those tunnels?
A Those tunnels were damp, indeed, and there was frequently water along the walls.
Q And where did the inmates sleep in those tunnels?
A In those tunnels they slept on wooden cots.
Q Did they have any blankets or coverings?
A There were blankets. However, they were not sufficient to cope with the necessities of the damp air in the tunnels.
Q Was there sufficient heat?
AAt the beginning it was cold in those tunnels and later on when the factory got started there was an automatic heating system. However, that was in September, 1944.
Q Now, were they actually digging these tunnels into the hills?
A Yes.
Q And what sort of work did the inmates have to do?
A The inmates had to do mining work, and some of them worked on certain production lines on the V-weapons.
Q And what was the death rate when you arrived in Dora?
A In January, towards the end of the month, the death rate came to 800 dead inmates, for January.
Q That would be approximately 8 per cent per month, is that correct?
A Yes.
Q Now of what were these prisoners dying, from what diseases?
A These inmates died often of the diseases they brought along from other camps. In other words, the lung tuberculosis, which occurred very often. Furthermore, there were organic diseases which resulted from infections with typhus and spotted fever in other camps. And also, I myself saw inmates who organically speaking had no signs of disease but could often have died of malnutrition, because their bodies already showed certain signs of malnutrition.
Q You say that prisoners were working for twelve hours a day?
A. Yes.
Q And were there two shifts of workers?
A Yes.
Q Did some of these workers have to march from their working place to the points where they slept?
A No -- well, yes; of course, they had to walk, but it was just a very short distance.
Q Didn't there come a time when large groups of prisoners had to walk for as much as four hours from their working places?
A Yes. However, that was not in Dora. In Dora the camp was right near their working place. That did happen in another camp which was quite near -- Nordhausen. That really belonged to Dora.
Q Well, in the case of these other camps did that mean that the prisoners therefore had only three or four hours sleep a night because of this long walk to and from the place of work?
A Yes, that is correct.
Q Now, did Dora increase in size during the time you were there?
A Yes, Dora increased in size. I do not have the exact figures, but I believe it increased to approximately 20,000 which I recall from my activities; and, of course, it could have been 25,000.
Q Now, Doctor, let us go over the question of the food rations in a little more detail. Can you tell this Tribunal what the prisoners received in the morning?
A In the morning the inmates received some coffee. This was nothing but ersatz coffee, without milk or sugar.
Q Did they get anything else for breakfast?
A During the course of the day they received one-third of a loaf of bread. They had to divide it themselves. In other words, so that they could have enough bread from the morning until evening. Then at noon they had a stow, which consisted of the usual beans and other vegetables. And in the evening they received margarine and once in a while also hamburgers, sometimes red beets for salads. That, generally speaking, was the food they received.
Q Now, this sausage that you mentioned, was that frequently inedible?
A Due to the fact that the kitchen facilities in Dora were rather primitive, and there were no means of refrigeration, if often happened that the sausage when it was distributed sometimes was no longer edible. In other words, there was the possibility of becoming sick from eating this sausage.
Q Doctor, in your opinion, was this food ration sufficient to sustain a man doing the type of work that was being performed in Dora?
A In my opinion, the food was in no way sufficient, because in the best of cases it amounted to 2,000 calories, counting all the additional allowances; but those inmates who did not work received only approximately 1,000 calories -- and in our opinion, 2,400 calories are necessary for a human being who is not working, in order to keep him alive.
Q How many calories do you think it would take to sustain an inmate doing heavy work in Dora?
A The heavy work in Dora, doing the mining work, 3,000 to 3,500 calories would be necessary. However, in the industrial works, which consisted of easy work on machines, 2,500 calories would be sufficient.
Q Now, Doctor, what clothing was issued to the prisoners?
A The inmates were normally striped clothing in the camp, and also while they were working. They had only that one suit. They had to wear it during working hours and in their time off.
Q And did those clothes become destroyed rather soon because of the type of work?
A The clothing suffered intensely due to their work, particularly when they were working in the mines. Then, of course, if they were carrying out work in the industrial end of it, their clothing were much better. However, as I could see for myself, it was full of oil stains, and the inmates had to walk around in these dirty suits all the time.
Q Was their clothing replaced.
A This clothing was replaced, but after a very long period of time.
Q What sort of shoes did the inmates receive?
A The inmates received wooden soled shoes. The soles were made of wood. The upper part was leather.
Q Did they have any socks?
A Socks were only there to a very limited extent, so that the inmates had to use rages and wrap their feet in them.
Q Did this result in a number of infections in the feet of the inmates?
A Yes.
Q Did you ever complain about the conditions in Dora?
A Yes, I did.
Q To whom did you complain?
A I complained to my immediate office, and that was at a time when we were still under the supervision of Buchenwald. To Dr. Schidlausky Later on I complained in writing to Berlin, to my superior, Dr. Lolling.
Q Did you ever complain to the camp commander at Dora, Ferschner?
A Yes, indeed. Of course. Because I saw him daily, and it was a matter of course.
Q And what reply did you receive to these complaints?
A I received the reply that in these years of the war it was not possible to have certain improvements here and furthermore that it was important in the first place that the construction program be carried out, and in the second place only would these improvements be considered.
Q Well, now, under whose orders did Forschner say that this construction would be pushed irrespective of the conditions under which the inmates worked?
A I did not understand the question.
Q You stated that Forschner and Schidlausky and the other people to whom you complained said that irrespective of the conditions under which the inmates worked, the construction and production work at Dora would have to go forward, it that correct?
A Yes, it is.
Q And who did Forschner tell you had expressed that sentiment, that the work would have to go on in any event?
A. That was Kammler's and Pohl's opinion, and also of the offices in Berlin.
Q. Do you know him, witness?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. Do you see him in this dock over here? If you can't see the dock, you may stand up.
A. (Witness rises) I believe that is the gentleman over there.
Q. Will you indicate his seat, please?
A. He is at the corner, near the entrance.
Q. Is that in the first row?
A. Yes.
MR. McHANEY: I will ask that the record show that the witness properly identified the defendant Pohl.
THE PRESIDENT: The record will so indicate.
BY MR. McHANEY:
Q. We ask, where did you see the defendant Pohl?
A. I was introduced to him during the visit in Dora.
Q. When was that?
A. That must have been in autumn 1944.
Q. And did you try to report the miserable conditions in Dora to Pohl?
A. I did not have the opportunity to do so.
Q. Why not?
A. Pohl came to Dora with a large staff and it was impossible for me to have a conversation with him because right after dinner he left Dora in a hurry. Therefore, it was impossible for me to approach him and deal with these matters.
Q. Did you make any effort to do so?
A. Yes, I did. I was called for dinner especially for that purpose.
Q. Was Dr. Lolling there with Pohl?
A. Not at the time.
Q. Did you ever talk to Lolling about the conditions in the camp?
A. No, I did not.
Q. Did Pohl make an inspection of the camp?
A. The inmate camp itself? -- the answer is no. However, he did visit certain construction camps.
Q. Did he not visit the places where the inmates were living and see the conditions under which they were living?
A. All I know is during that tour of inspection he saw the inmates while they were working at their working places -- or at least he must have seen them. If he visited any other camp apart from Dora -and I am speaking about their living places in particular -- I don't know.
Q. Did Kammler visit Camp Dora very often?
A. Kammler was in Dora several times.
Q. And was he informed about the living conditions there?
A. Yes, he was.
Q. Witness, I want to get this matter straight. When you submitted complaints about the living conditions there, did you get the response that nobody cared how many inmates died; that the main thing was to get this building project finished?
A. I did not quite understand your question.
Q. I say, when you made complaints about the living conditions in Dora, did you get the response that nobody cared how many inmates died; that the main thing was to get the construction project finished?
A. Generally speaking, that was the general opinion that prevailed there.
A. Is the name Pook familiar to you, witness.
A. Yes.
Q. Who was Pook?
A. Pook was the chief dentist in Office Group (or Amt Group) D.
Q. Now, witness, are you informed about the collection of gold teeth of inmates in concentration camps?
A. Yes, I am.
Q. Do you know what was done with the gold from the teeth of deceased inmates?
A. I only know insofar that the gold had to be sent to Berlin.
Q. And to what office was it sent in Berlin?
A. According to my recollection it was sent to Amtsgruppe D-III. However, I do not know who received those teeth because I, myself, had nothing to do with the gold teeth.
Q. Do you know generally whether it was sent to the office of Chief Dentist in Amt D-III?
A. I cannot tell you that for sure.
Q. But you do know that it was sent to Amt D-III?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. Do you see Pook in the defendants' dock?
A (Witness rises) Yes, I do.
Q. Where is he sitting, please?
A. He is sitting right against the wall, and he is third, right next to the door.
Q. Sitting where?
A. In the second row; he is third from the left, near the door.
MR. McHANEY: I will ask that the record show that the witness properly identified the defendant Pook.
THE PRESIDENT: The record will so indicate.
BY MR. McHANEY:
Q. Now, witness, when did you leave Dora?
A. That was around Christmas 1944.
Q. And where did you go then?
A. Then I was transferred to Berlin, and from there I was transferred to Gross-Rosen.
Q. And did you ever have any occasion to return to Dora?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. When was that?
A. That was towards the end of March 1945.
Q. And on that occasion did you hear anything about an order concerning the destruction of Dora if it was threatened by the Allies?
A. I spent one day in Dora while traveling through there, and on that occasion I met a doctor whom I knew who used to work with me. He told me that the day before there had been a discussion with the commander of the camp of Dora during which occasion an order was issued about how people should behave in that Camp Dora; namely, if the enemy should approach. It said in that order that the inmates were to be led to the tunnels and they had to be gassed there so that they could not come into the enemy's hands alive. However, should that prove impossible, because there was no gas in Dora, then these inmates should be blown up together with the tunnel immediately after having been put in there.
Q. From whom did that order come?
A. At the time I learned that a certain Sturmbannfuehrer Barnewald from Buchenwald had brought the order and that the order had come from Berlin. However, I do not know who actually signed the order.
Q. What was the name of this doctor who told you about this in Dora?
A. His name was Dr. Alfred Kurzke.
Q. Did you know a man by the name of Ackerman in Dora?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. What was his position?
A. His position was that of clerk in the administration office for the sick.
Q. And Ackerman was an inmate, was he not?
A. Yes.
Q. Was he well-informed as to the conditions in Dora?
A. Yes, he was.
Q. Now, Doctor, while you were at Dora, is it not true that they shipped out large numbers of inmates who broke down and were no longer able to work?
A. Well, I don't quite understand that. Do you mean they were shipped out of their working places?
Q. No; you are familiar with invalid transports -- are you not, Doctor?
A. Yes, yes; I know that invalid transports took place.
Q. And where were these invalid transports from Dora sent, do you know?
A. I know of one transport right now which was sent to the Rest Camp Bergen-Belsen.
Q. And, actually, was Bergen-Belsen a Rest- or Recreational Camp, Doctor?
A. I only found out while I was a prisoner of war that it was not a rest camp. At the time, however, I did not know too much about it.
Q Doctor, don't you know now that those persons sent in these invalid transports were in fact exterminated in Bergen-Belsen and in other camps?
A I only learned that now. However, I did not know that at the time.
Q But you do know it now, don't you, Doctor?
A Yes, I do.
Q Where and when did you see the defendant Pook?
A I saw Pook one single time in my life, and that was on the occasion of a show at Dr. Lolling's place in Berlin. On that occasion, I was also introduced to Dr. Pook.
Q Now, Doctor, when you came back to Dora in March 1945, were you able to determine anything about the death rate at that time among the inmates?
AAt my visit at the time Dr. Kurzke and many inmates I spoke to on that occasion. I was told that the living conditions had become very bad again, and that the death rate was immensely high, or had immensely increased.
MR. McHANEY: I have no further questions at this time, Your Honor.
THE PRESIDENT: Have the defense counsel arranged the order in which they will cross examine the witness?
DR. SEIDL: Dr. Seidl for the defendant Oswald Pohl. May it please Your Honor, I should appreciate if the Tribunal would agree to the fact that the German defense counsel be allowed to question in the same order that they should appear in the indictment. We have no special arrangement.
THE PRESIDENT: Any plan is agreeable to the defense counsel is agreeable to the Tribunal.
DR. SEIDL: Thank you sir.
CROSS EXAMINATION BY DR. SEIDL:
Q Witness, you were a member in the Waffen-SS in 1944?
A Yes, sir.
Q Correction - 1940, and you joined on an honorary basis?
A Yes, sir.
Q What made you join the SS and not to do your duty to the Wehrmacht?
A I joined the Waffen-SS because the Waffen-SS promised me after three months of good service I would be used as a doctor, whereas, in the Wehrmacht I would have had nothing to do but to recruit and would have to do eleven months at the front.
Q I would like to ask you to speak slowly and to make a short pause after every question.
A Yes.
Q At the time you did not think then that you were to belong as a member of a criminal organization, did you?
A No.
Q How did it happen then that you in 1943 became camp commander in - - - I shall repeat the question. How was it then that you in 1943 first became a doctor in the concentration camp at Dachau, and then a doctor in the concentration camp at Dora?
AAfter I was with the troops, that was at the beginning first in the Ersatz Einheiten itself. However, later on I was on the front in Russia, and I was wounded there at Leningrad front, and I was laid up in a hospital for a long period of time, and then I could no longer be used at the frong and I was assigned to the concentration camp.
Q You stated that early during the work in the concentration camp of Dora, that the death rate was very high?
A Yes.
Q That probably is in connection with the fact that at the time the camp was under construction?
A Yes, it was high, that was the reason.
Q However, later on under your supervision the conditions changed there to the better?
A Yes.
Q In the Camp of Dora secret weapons were constructed? Particularly, the "V" weapon?
A Yes.
Q That was in 1944?
A Yes.
Q Is it correct if I say that these weapons were constructed in these subterranean factories due to the fact that it was impossible to work safely on top of the earth, or the surface, due to the Anglo-American Air Raids?
A Yes, I believe that was the reason.
Q Is it true that these attacks actually killed 800,000 to 1,000,000 people at work of the civilian population?
A That is possible.
Q That with this, however, at the time these factories were only working for the armament -- the factories of the camp Dora were constructed in tunnels?
A Yes.
Q You also mentioned the Mittelwerk company?
A Yes.
Q Do you know that the Mittelwerk was not an Akteingesellschaft, a company with limited liability, and the company was under Administrative Speer?
A Yes.
Q You also know that certain officers were responsible for the work done there?
A For the work, yes.
Q You also said before that we had in the foreground the execution of the planned work, and that it was of no concern to anybody that the people died. I ask you now, witness, who gave you that answer at the time?
A I received that answer first of all by Foerster, then by Dr. Lolling, from Dr. Schidlausky, from Pister, the concentration camp commander at Buchenwald at the time, and several times from Kammler.