DR. BERGOLD: May it please this Tribunal, I don't have to introduce myself, I believe, I would like to come back to Exhibit 101. My copy here has the date, 24th of May, 1941. With reference to these Jewish transports, I have some knowledge about it, due to my experience at the first trials, and I would appreciate it if this Tribunal would show me that telegram in its original form. I have doubts that that document can be correct, with that date. 1941 does not seem quite probable to me. That was before the Russian campaign and that is probably a time when there were no Jewish transports. In other words, I just want to see the original.
THE PRESIDENT: The copy has 0941. That may not indicate the year. It says "24-5", 24 May, but the next figure probably does not indicate the year.
DR. BERGOLD: No, it does not. That is why I wanted to see the original. I can see there is no statement of the year, only in the index. The date in the index is the 24th of May, 1941 -- in the Prosecution's index -- and that couldn't possibly be correct. Thank you.
MR HART: On page 76 of the Document Book, I offer Document NO-681, as Exhibit 103. This is a Himmler order regarding anti-partisan activities, directing that the men of families engaged in anti-partisan activities are to be executed and that the women of such families are to be transferred to concentration camps.
At page 81 of the Document Book, I offer Document NO-1017, as Exhibit 104. This is a letter from Gluecks to the camp commanders regarding the transfers of Russian civilian workers to concentration camps, stating that they are to be seized not individually but in terms of numbers.
At page 83 of the Document Book, I offer Document NO-2131, as Exhibit 105. This is a circular directive from Mueller of the RSHA to Pohl, Amts Gruppe D, Concentration Camp Commanders, stating that only prisoners who are able to work and justify themselves are to be sent to the concentration camps. The directive also concerns the transports of prisoners to the concentration camps.
The directive states that for the Eastern workers who are sent to concentration camps they are to be reported by numbers only.
At page 86 of the Document Book, I offer Document NO-1073, as Exhibit 106. This is a statement by Dr. Otto Rascher concerning his activity in checking Poles who were to be liquidated at the transient camp near Soldau. Those who were not liquidated were either released or sent to concentration camps.
At page 90 of the Document Book, I offer Document NO-1411, as Exhibit 107. This is a memorandum of a Dr. Knochen, concerning the wholesale arrest of Jews in France for further deportation to concentration camps east ward.
At page 97 of the Document Book, I offer Document NO-1547. This is a Maul letter to concentration camp commanders requesting reports upon the condition of prisoners on their admission to concentration camps -excuse me, you Honors. I was given to understand that this document had been distributed to your Honors and Defense Counsel. It was given to me about an hour ago with that understanding.
THE PRESIDENT: We have not received it.
MR. HART: If your Honors please, I will omit offering that document at this time, but will reserve the exhibit number.
----END OF TAKE 21---
That will be Exhibit No. 108, reserved for a future offering of Document No. NO-1547. At page 98 of the document book I offer Document No. NO-1558 as Exhibit No. 109. This is a Gluecks' letter to concentration camp commanders concerning the arrival in concentration camps of prisoners from the east, stating that the usual reports concerning the transfers of such prisoners would be discontinued at once.
On page 99 of the document book I offer Document No. NO-2074 as Exhibit No. 110. At page 103 of the document book I offer Document NO2075 --
JUDGE MUSMANNO: Mr. Hart, can't you give us in a very few words an indication of what the exhibit refers to? Now you have --
MR. HART: I was going to include both of those exhibits in my subsequent remarks, Your Honor. I have lumped them together purposefully and I will remark on them after I have offered Exhibit No. 111, because they both relate to the same subjects.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: Very well.
MR. HART: At page 103 of the document book I offer Document No. 2075 as Exhibit No. 111. Exhibit Nos. 110 and 111 consist of correspondence concerning the transportation of Jews from the ghettos to the concentration camps. The substance of the correspondence is a complaint by the Reichsminister for the Occupied Eastern Territories because when the Jews were removed from the ghettos into the concentration camps the income which the Reich Ministry for the Eastern Occupied Territories had formerly obtained from those prisoners was transferred to Pohl of the WVHA. The Reich Ministry for the Eastern Occupied Territories requested Pohl to share that income - and Pohl had refused.
At page 106 of the document book I offer Document NO-383 as Exhibit No, 112. This is a letter from the commander of the Security Police to the administration of the concentration camp at Flossenburg and others concerning the treatment of deceased inmates who were arrested in France. It shows particularly the treatment of the so-called "Nacht und Nebel" prisoners.--
JUDGE PHILLIPS: Will you please read the first paragraph?
MR. HART: Of that exhibit, Your Honor?
JUDGE PHILLIPS: Yes.
MR. HART: "French inmates arrested in France and transferred to German concentration camps should in case of death be dealt with under the decree of the Reich Security Main Office of 23 July 1943 - IV C 2." I can't make out any of it in our copy. The next general number is 103 diagonal 42g. "According to the provisions of the Nacht und Nebel decree (Night and Fog procedure), that is, relatives may not be informed of their death, nor may they be given any property left by the inmates. As it is impossible to keep the property of such prisoners here, I have asked the Reich Security Main Office to order that the property of the deceased inmates who were arrested in France and transferred to Germany be dealt with as follows: (1) The remaining articles of clothing will be given by the concentration camps to the NS Welfare Organization, (2) Valuables and personal effects as well as souvenirs will be kept in the camp."
JUDGE PHILLIPS: We can read it from there on. It is legible from there on.
MR. HART: Yes, sir. I next introduce at page 108 of the document book Document NO-399 as Exhibit No. 113. This is a letter from Sturmbannfuehrer Burger, who was the Chief of Office 4 of Amtsgruppe D, to the defendant Georg Loerner, who was Chief of Amtsgruppe D of the WVHA. I should like to read the letter with the Court's permission:
"With reference to the above-mentioned telephone call I submit the figures of prisoners ---"
DR. HAENSEL (Counsel for the defendant Georg Loerner): This document here, on the last line it contains points, setting up of the clothing points - or dots, rather. It is of great importance to us what he had to do about this report. In other words, what was to happen with the clothes, and I would appreciate it if this document would only be admitted if it had been submitted in toto.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, what --
MR. HART: I don't entirely understand the force of that objection.
THE PRESIDENT: I don't either. What is wrong with the document? In what way is it incomplete?
DR. HAENSEL: On the last line it contains dots. In other words, something is missing there. I take it that these points were made when this thing was copied because something was omitted. However, in order to know what it said there, we should have the text.
THE PRESIDENT: Those dots do not necessarily mean an omission. Have you not looked at the original document?
Dr. HAENSEL: Yes, well, that is the way the document is, too. However, the original itself is nothing but a copy, too. If this Tribunal would mind taking a look at it, please --
Court No. 11 - Case No. 4
THE PRESIDENT: This is a picture of the original. It is a photostate of the original.
DR. HAENSEL: That is not quite possible, because then the signatures would have to be on there. Everything is typewritten there. That is a photostatic copy of a copy, and not a photostatic copy of the original. The original should be much longer and contain other things.
THE PRESIDENT: This is certified to be a photostatic copy of the original document. This is exactly what was found in the German office file.
DR. HAENSEL: Well, I would like to state that there should be more.
THE PRESIDENT: But there isn't. That is all there is.
MR. HART: Continuing the reading: "With reference to the above - mentioned telephone call I submit the figures of prisoners in the camp." I will have to refer to the original document, your Honors, for the date and some figures. "1 August 1944 and the numbers of prisoners scheduled for arrival as well as of stocks of clothing on 15 August 1944. The number of prisoners on 1 August 1944 was:
a) Male prisoners 379, 167
b) Female prisoners 145, 119 Totaling 524, 286 "In addition, the following new arrivals are scheduled:
1.) from the Hungarian program (Jewish scheme)" -And now, if your Honors please, I am referring to the original document because in my mimeographed copy the numbers are incomplete and are missing, the last three digits.
2.) from Lodz (police prison and ghetto).....60,000
3.) Poles from the Government General............15,000
4.) Penal prisoners from the Eastern Territories.10,000
5.) former Polish Officers.......................17,000
6.) from Warsaw (Poles).........................400,000
7.) current influx from Franco, about 15,000 to 20,000 totaling 612,000 "Many of the prisoners are already on the way and will arrive at the concentration camp in a few days" No. 2, being the second general designation, "Inventory of clothing" blank.
I wish to call to your Honors' attention the reference to the clothing inventory is referred to the Defendant Georg Loerner as being responsible on that question for the great number of new prisoners expected. At Page DR. HAENSEL (for Defendant Georg Loerner) The responsibility of Georg Loerner can only be seen by those dots. Therefore I would like to ask you either to submit the whole document or then torestrict the deductions which can be drawn from that. At this point of the proceedings I want to object against the introduction of this document the way it is now, and I would appreciate it if the Prosecution could possibly submit the entire document other than an original photostatic copy, because if Loerner is responsible then we must know what clothing it was.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal will infer nothing from a row of dots. This is where we came in I think. Obviously, sir, the paper was sent to Loerner to fill in the dots after he get it. He was the one who would know the figures which should take the place of the dots, and this letter was sent to him just as it is for him to fill in the figures.
DR. HAENSEL: That is an assumption which might be correct and which I have to make sure of.
Court No. 11 - Case No. 4
THE PRESIDENT: That is our assumption. You can't controvert the dots.
MR. HA*RT: At Page 110 of the document book I introduce, offer Document No. 1284 as Exhibit No. 114. This is a Liebehenschel letter to the camp commanders directing the employment of German, Dutch and Norwegian clergymen in the h*rb gardens.
At Page 11 of the document book I offer Document No. NO1583 as Exhibit No. 115. This is a letter from the Chief of Antsgruppe D to the concentration camp commanders concerning the imprisonment of prominent persons in the concentration camps.
At Page 114 of the document book I offer Document No. NO-1*34 as Exhibit 116. This is a letter from the Chief of Office D-1 to the concentration camp commanders stating that clergymen in concentration camps are to be treated in the same manner as other detainees.
At Page 116 of the document book I offer Document No. NO-568 as Exhibit No. 117. This is a letter from Maurer, the Chief of Office 2 of Amtsgruppe D to the Chief of Office W 5 of Amtsgruppe W of the WVHA concerning the employment of Jehovah's Witnesses who were inmates in the concentration camps.
At Page 117 of the document book I offer Document 1943PS. This document is a statement of the experiences of two Polish priests.
DR. HEIM (For Defendant Hohberg) Your Honor, I object to the introduction of this document. Counsel reads the statement of the index. They are both statements of Polish priests. These two statements by the Polish priests were not affidavits. Both statements lack the form which is prescribed by the Tribunal. The requirements of an affidavit Court No. 11 - Case No. 4 are not complied with.
Particularly on the signatures, they are not legalized by any authority. Both documents are not admissible, because these reports have not been released by an authority. With reference to the statement raised by the Prosecution, that both statements were already introduced during the first trials, with reference to Document 1943- PS I wish to state as far as I can remember here from the Main trial, these two documents were introduced by the Prosecution. However, they were rejected by the Tribunal due to the reasons which I have mentioned now. I would appreciate, therefore, if you would comply with my request.
MR. HART: If your honors please, I did not see that document before it was enclosed in the book, but wrote it up in the index from an analysis of the document. I should like to withdraw the offer of this document in evidence at this time until I have had time to look into the circumstances concerning the document itself. I thought it was a proper affidavit before including it in the book.
THE PRESIDENT: The exhibit will be withdrawn by the Prosecution and may be reeffered if in proper form. The next number will be 118.
MR. HART: I should like to continue at this time with the introduction of documents contained in document book No. 5. I understand that this book was not delivered to the defense counsel twenty-four hours prior to now, but I understand also that all of the documents in the book have been in the hands of the defense counsel for a number of days, and I would anticipate that there would be no great objection on the part of defense counsel to my continuing with the reading of these documents at the present time.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, let's find out whether the Court has Court No. 11 - Case No. 4 Book No. 5.
THE SECRETARY GENERAL : It has not, your Honor. I have not been served with that book. It has not been brought to me.
THE PRESIDENT: We just finished Book 4?
MR. McHANEY: Book 4, yes. If the Tribunal please, if you don't have Book 5 before you, instead of going ahead with the documents, I can at least call a witness and put some of the preliminary matters before us and continue with his testimony tomorrow morning.
THE PRESIDENT: Let us see what we have here, Mr. McHaney, in the way of documents. The next two books, the only other two books we have seem to be numbed 7 and 9. Would that be possible?
MR. McHANEY: It could be possible, Your Honor. The Prosecution is in possession of Book 5. I do not think the Prosecution has Book 6. I think Book 5 has been distributed, but, of course, I am not sure that you have actually received it.
THE PRESIDENT: No. We have not. We have left 7 and 8.
MR. McHANEY: Seven and Eight. My understanding is that certainly you will get 5 today. You should have it already, and I think 6, also. I think tomorrow we should be able to dispose of those two books.
At the present time, since I think some of Defense Counsel do not have Book 5 either, we might call this witness who is outside now, have him sworn and get his name and other preliminary matters, and then continue with him tomorrow morning.
THE PRESIDENT: Why not do the whole business tomorrow morning, ** you are going to stop after his name?
MR. McHANEY: We will continue until the adjournment time, Your Honor. We are prepared to go ahead.
THE PRESIDENT: That is not so vital. If we are going to just take him partway, let us start in with a clean slate tomorrow morning.
MR. McHANEY: Very well, Your Honor.
THE PRESIDENT: Adjournment seems to be indicated until 9:30 hours tomorrow morning.
(Hearing recessed until 0930 hours 10 April 1947)
Official Transcript of the American Military Tribunal in the matter of the United States of America, against Oswald Pohl, et al, defendants, sitting at Nurnberg, Germany, on 10 April 1947, 0930 1630, Justice Toms, presiding.
THE MARSHAL: All persons in Court please take your seats.
The Honorable, the Judges of Military Tribunal No. 2.
Military Tribunal No. 2 is now in session. God save the United States of America and this Honorable Tribunal.
There will be order in the Court.
THE PRESIDENT: Mr. Marshal, you will please ascertain if the defendants are all present.
THE MARSHAL: May it please your Honors, all the defendants are present in the courtroom
THE PRESIDENT: The proper notation will be made. The Prosecution may proceed.
MR. McHANEY: May it please the Tribunal, I will ask the Marshal be directed to summon the Witness Karl Kahr, K-A-H-R.
(The marshal summoned the Witness.)
THE PRESIDENT: The Witness will raise his right hand and repeat after me.
I swear by God, the Almighty and Omniscient, that I will speak the pure truth and will withhold and add nothing.
(The witness repeated the oath).
THE PRESIDENT: You may be seated.
DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. McHANEY:
Q. Witness, your name is Karl Kahr?
A. Yes.
Q. You are a German national?
A. I am an Austrian citizen.
Q. You were born in 1914 at Fuerstenfeld, Austria?
A. Yes.
Q. Are you presently in American custody?
A. Yes.
Q. What is your profession?
A. I am a doctor.
Q. Were you a member of the SS?
A. Yes.
Q. When did you join the SS?
A. In 1940, that is in July, I joined the Waffen SS.
Q. And you acted as a doctor in the SS?
A. Yes.
Q. Did there come a time when you were assigned as a doctor to a concentration camp?
A. Yes.
Q. When was that?
A. That was in 1943, namely in January or February.
Q. And what concentration camp were you assigned to?
A. First of all it was Dachau and the camp at Dora.
Q. What?
A. Dora.
Q. How long were you in Dachau, Witness?
A. I was at Dachau for nine months, and in 1944 I went to Dora.
Q. Did you yo to Dora in January 1944?
A. I did not understand your question.
(The question was repeated to the witness by the interpreter)
A. Yes.
Q. And how long did you stay at Dora?
A. Until Christmas 1944.
Q. And were you subordinated in medical matters while you were in Dora?
A. In medical matters I was first under the stabsarzt of Buchenwald.
Q. What was his name?
A. Dr. Schidlausky.
Q. And were you ultimately subordinated to Dr. Lolling of the WVHA?
A. Yes.
Q. Dr. Lolling was chief of Amtsgruppe D-III in the WVHA?
A. Yes.
Q. Was Dora a sub-camp of Buchenwald when you first arrived there in January 1944?
A. Yes.
Q. Was it ultimately - did it ultimately become a concentration camp in itself known as Nordhausen?
A. Yes.
Q. When did it become know as Nordhausen?
A. In autumn 1944.
Q. Was it not then centrally administered by the WVHA?
A. Well, the administration in itself was self-sufficient. However, it was subordinate to the WVHA.
Q. Now, then, how big was Dora? How many inmates did it have when you first arrived there?
A. Ten thousand of them.
Q. And what was being done at Dora?
A. First of all quarry work was done in Dora; namely, subterranean tunnels were built. Then weapons were produced.
Q. And what was produced?
A. The weapons.
Q. Now, under whose control was this construction and production work carried out?
A. The factory's name was Mittelwerk.
Q. Is the name of Obergruppenfuehrer kammler familiar to you?
A. Yes.
Q. Did Kammler have control over construction and production work at Dora?
A. Yes, he did.
Q. Was Kammler the chief of Amtsgruppe C of the WVHA?
A. I don't know what group the Group C was but I know that Kammler was the chief of the Office for Construction.
Q. Now, will you tell us what living conditions you found when you arrived in Dora in January 1944; that is, living conditions of the inmates?
A. When I arrived in Dora in January 1944, I was horrified by the living conditions which I saw there and which prevailed for the inmates. In no way had any people been worried about the billets, nor did they worry about their clothing which they needed for their hard work, nor did they take care of any sanitary installations. Out of the 10,000 inmates at the time at least 7,000 of them had to live under the earth; that is, in these specially built tunnels. Only 3,000 of them had the possibility to see the sunlight in the camp and to live in barracks. In addition, it so happened that the inmates during the twelve-hour shift had to work in the tunnels and had to spend their leisure time in a tunnel nearby. For the sick inmates, while I was there, there were only four barracks for the sick which had the very least equipment that could be expected so that due to the great, large number of sick inmates it was almost impossible to take care of these inmates. Furthermore, due to bad clothing and bad shoes they had great injuries which occurred while they were working on these pointed stones and the inmates were very badly fed. As they were very badly fed, they did not have the good resistance to these diseases, so that the infections on their legs were at a horrible extent. I myself was a doctor. During my activities prior to that I had never seen such infections. When I arrived there I drew somebody's attention to those infections. I was answered that these were higher things and that it did not matter how many human beings would lose their lives in those mines. The first thing that was important was to carry out the construction program and only slowly and by and by did I suceed with the help of the chief director or manager of the works to get better billets and also to improve the sick barracks so that only in the course of that year, perhaps in May or June, there was a decrease in the death rate and the sick rate and only in May perhaps or June all the units could live in the barracks over there during the day.
The food in that camp was the usual bad food which is known in the concentration camps and only those inmates who used to work in the armament factories there received a special allocation of food. However, the basic ration in itself was bad and consisted for the greatest part in the normal food with a lot of liquids.
Q. Doctor, let's go back just a moment. When you arrived, there were 10,000 inmates working at Dora, is that right?
A. Ten thousand were there at the camp at the time. That is right.
Q. And what nationality were these inmates?
A. At that time all nations were represented at that camp who could be seen in the German concentration camps at the time.
Q. And were there any prisoners of war?
A. Prisoners of war? No, according to my recollection there were a few Italian prisoners of war.
Q. Were there any Russian prisoners of war there?
A. There were also Russian prisoners of war there; however, they were not considered as prisoners of war but as concentration camp inmates.
Q Were there many French prisoners at Dora?
A Yes, there were.
Q Approximately what proportion of the 10,000 would you say were French? Could you give any estmate?
A I cannot give you a correct figure, because I do not remember all the figures. However, I can only add that out of the 10,000 concentration camp inmates, six to seven hundred of them were Germans and all the others were foreigners.
Q You stated that 70 per cent of these inmates had to sleep in the tunnels, is that correct?
A Yes.
Q Was it damp in those tunnels?
A Those tunnels were damp, indeed, and there was frequently water along the walls.
Q And where did the inmates sleep in those tunnels?
A In those tunnels they slept on wooden cots.
Q Did they have any blankets or coverings?
A There were blankets. However, they were not sufficient to cope with the necessities of the damp air in the tunnels.
Q Was there sufficient heat?
AAt the beginning it was cold in those tunnels and later on when the factory got started there was an automatic heating system. However, that was in September, 1944.
Q Now, were they actually digging these tunnels into the hills?
A Yes.
Q And what sort of work did the inmates have to do?
A The inmates had to do mining work, and some of them worked on certain production lines on the V-weapons.
Q And what was the death rate when you arrived in Dora?
A In January, towards the end of the month, the death rate came to 800 dead inmates, for January.
Q That would be approximately 8 per cent per month, is that correct?
A Yes.
Q Now of what were these prisoners dying, from what diseases?
A These inmates died often of the diseases they brought along from other camps. In other words, the lung tuberculosis, which occurred very often. Furthermore, there were organic diseases which resulted from infections with typhus and spotted fever in other camps. And also, I myself saw inmates who organically speaking had no signs of disease but could often have died of malnutrition, because their bodies already showed certain signs of malnutrition.
Q You say that prisoners were working for twelve hours a day?
A. Yes.
Q And were there two shifts of workers?
A Yes.
Q Did some of these workers have to march from their working place to the points where they slept?
A No -- well, yes; of course, they had to walk, but it was just a very short distance.
Q Didn't there come a time when large groups of prisoners had to walk for as much as four hours from their working places?
A Yes. However, that was not in Dora. In Dora the camp was right near their working place. That did happen in another camp which was quite near -- Nordhausen. That really belonged to Dora.
Q Well, in the case of these other camps did that mean that the prisoners therefore had only three or four hours sleep a night because of this long walk to and from the place of work?
A Yes, that is correct.
Q Now, did Dora increase in size during the time you were there?
A Yes, Dora increased in size. I do not have the exact figures, but I believe it increased to approximately 20,000 which I recall from my activities; and, of course, it could have been 25,000.
Q Now, Doctor, let us go over the question of the food rations in a little more detail. Can you tell this Tribunal what the prisoners received in the morning?
A In the morning the inmates received some coffee. This was nothing but ersatz coffee, without milk or sugar.
Q Did they get anything else for breakfast?
A During the course of the day they received one-third of a loaf of bread. They had to divide it themselves. In other words, so that they could have enough bread from the morning until evening. Then at noon they had a stow, which consisted of the usual beans and other vegetables. And in the evening they received margarine and once in a while also hamburgers, sometimes red beets for salads. That, generally speaking, was the food they received.
Q Now, this sausage that you mentioned, was that frequently inedible?
A Due to the fact that the kitchen facilities in Dora were rather primitive, and there were no means of refrigeration, if often happened that the sausage when it was distributed sometimes was no longer edible. In other words, there was the possibility of becoming sick from eating this sausage.
Q Doctor, in your opinion, was this food ration sufficient to sustain a man doing the type of work that was being performed in Dora?
A In my opinion, the food was in no way sufficient, because in the best of cases it amounted to 2,000 calories, counting all the additional allowances; but those inmates who did not work received only approximately 1,000 calories -- and in our opinion, 2,400 calories are necessary for a human being who is not working, in order to keep him alive.
Q How many calories do you think it would take to sustain an inmate doing heavy work in Dora?
A The heavy work in Dora, doing the mining work, 3,000 to 3,500 calories would be necessary. However, in the industrial works, which consisted of easy work on machines, 2,500 calories would be sufficient.