We confiscated altogether about 10,000 tons of transportation space. Supplies were loaded on the trucks and we also used ships on the Danube. Cities like Munich were supplied in this way. What became of that organization -- it was then just being built up because on paper we now had 10,000 tons of vehicles but I never saw the vehicles only on paper nor did I see the officers again because the advance of the American Armored Armies crowded out this organization and everything blew up so to speak. I had my office in Pullach near Munich in a former Army office.
Q Witness, at the end of the War you were in Berlin. Did you have anything to do with the evacuation of any of the concentration camps such as Sachsenhausen, for instance?
A I would like to say this. I described what the transportation situation was. It would have been quite impossible to arrange for people to be transported. There was a clear order by Hitler that no people must be transported, neither by rail nor by trucks. The reason for this was quite clearly that ammunition and equipment supplies, etc., had to reach the front. No member of the civilian population was allowed to be transported in the course of the years, particularly at the end. I had neither requests for railroad transportation nor for truck transportation in order to transfer or evacuate concentration camps. I would not have been able to carry them out because the situation and the shortage of trucks would have made it impossible.
Q I would like to submit a document concerning the concentration camp Sachsenhausen. This is Document No. 33 which is in Document Book 2. I have already submitted that. I would merely like to draw the court's attention to this document, particularly to page 71 of Document Book 2, about the question of the evacuation of concentration camps. The former commandant of the Concentration Camp Sachsenhausen says in the last paragraph: "On April 18, 1945, I received the verbal order from the Chief of the Office Group D Gluecks to requisition the ships, lying in the West Harbor of Berlin, to take them to Lohnitz Lake Court No. II, Case No. 4.via the Lohenzollern Canal and to ship the Sachsenhausen inmates through the canals to the North Sea and the Baltic Sea.
I refused to carry out this order and suggested once more that the camp should be handed over to the International Red Cross. Gluecks was furious about my refusal and threatened to report me to Himmler. I did not carry out the requisition of the ships, thus this mad scheme was not carried out."
Witness, when the War ended you were in Bavaria. Were you taken prisoner?
A Yes, together with another 13 men, my drivers. I went and surrendered to the Americans as a prisoner. This was at the frontier of Tyrol. I was in uniform at the time. I had with me about 86 drivers, all of whom I had sent to the Tyrolean area and I went in my full uniform without taking anything away from it. I was then taken to Camp Derndorf and from Derndorf to Kematen. And in Kematen as the most senior SS man I left the camp ....
Q We will talk about that later. Witness, I would like to come back to your activity in the WVHA. From the statements made by Sommer it became clear that you also had a work shop which was part of the Motor Pool and that in that work shop inmates were working, concentration camp inmates. When were they sent there and how many were there?
A When on the first of October 1942 I took over B-V in the WVHA I inspected the offices, the Motor Pool and the work shop - and they all existed. Twenty inmates were working in the work shop. To speak quite frankly I didn't notice anything peculiar about that. I had no misgivings. I was just back from the front and all my other tasks were occupying my mind to such an extent that I did not notice anything peculiar. A little later, 4 to 6 weeks later perhaps, when I re-visited the work shop I saw the inmates in their striped uniforms and I told myself the following: To anticipate a little, it was the purpose of penal institutes to lend inmates to work shops for a certain compensation. So, I knew that these were people who had been punished.
Court No. II, Case No. 4.
I had never seen a concentration camp before, nor did I know anything about concentration camps at that moment. I had been at the front since 1939 and I felt I didn't want to have these people around my place. I didn't want them with my young men. I insisted they be sent back at once. As these men had worked together with these men for a long time the inmates knew this. The leader of the inmates asked me would I please talk to him when I came by the next time. When I went past the work shop again I asked the leader of the inmates to come and see me and I would see what he wanted me to do. Let me describe our conversation as literally as possible. I was Sturmbannfuehrer. He said, "Sturmbannfuehrer, please do us one favor. Please let us work here because here we have a good job and if you send us back to the camp again then we become part of the hord and must look for a new job.
Q I would like to submit two affidavits to the court before the witness comments any more about this point. They are in Document Book I, Document Scheide No. 24 which will become Exhibit 17, and Scheide No. 23 which will become Exhibit 18. As these statements are so important I would like to read these two affidavits, first Document 24 which is on page 42 of the English Document Book: After the usual initial sentences he states:
"I have known Herr Scheide since the beginning of 1936 and I was employed on his recommendation in the motor vehicle workshop of the Leibstandarte as a painter. I am neither a party member nor did I belong to any other organization. I can only confirm that Herr Scheide was a refined and decent man towards his subordinates and he was also a good comrade. I can only confirm that he treated the prisoners who were assigned to us in 1943 like human beings. This was confirmed by several prisoners personally.
(Signed) Wilhelm Ehlers" And then Document Scheide 23 on page 40 reads as follows after the usual initial sentences:
"I have known Herr Scheide since 1935. I worked under his supervision in the workshop of the Leibstandarte as a motor mechanic. I, myself, am not a member of the party and I also did not belong to any other organizations."
I skip the next bit and I shall read the next paragraph:
"In the year 1942-43..." I should like to remark this was before Scheide's time.
"...skilled workers from the concentration camps were assigned to us. From a higher authority we received the order to be very reserved toward these prisoners. One day Herr Scheide came to me and asked: 'Huge, how is your prisoner working?' I replied that I was very satisfied, that he was a very industrious and decent man. Then he asked me under pledge of the utmost secrecy: 'Do me a favor and be decent to them, one must have pity on these poor lads.' Then he shook my hand and went away. Once I asked my prisoner what he thought about Herr Scheide. He replied: 'He is a fine man and we all like him very much.'" Now, about that affidavit, witness, I should like to ask you why did you say at the time that the workers should treat the concentration camp inmates decently?
Were you sorry for them?
A By that I mean my motor mechanics, not my inmates. I could have ordered them to treat these men decently and I would have achieved the same thing, but what I wanted to do in this case was to appeal to the human side of my men, because these people who had to walk around in striped uniforms and shorn hair you should feel sorry for. I would like to explain why these inmates came to the Leibstandarte as they had nothing to do with the Leibstandarte. In 1943 we had a very severe air raid on the Leibstandarte. May I explain briefly, even if it seems unimaineable, all of the Leibstandarte was on fire, the whole house was one great wave of fire and the last man was used against this fire in order to get it under control and the workshop of the W.V.H.A. burned down completely.
The damage amounted to 350,000 marks. In the barracks of the Leibstandarte Hitler there were 7,000 men who served as a unit and it became possible to extinguish these 1,000 fire bombs. I was in charge of the work shop and on behalf of the field unit of the Leibstandarte thereupon I used the inmates there. That was the first time I had any contact with my civilian workers. I would not mention this if it did not seem necessary to say the following; when we switched over to genevator gas all drivers of the SS were given additional food rations because it became clear on the basis of this new gas slight symptoms of poisoning became noticeable. I thought it was completely obvious for me to see that the inmates did receive the exact food rations like the men. The chief of office group B, who was Gruppenfuehrer Loerner, gave me the permission to obtain additional supplies from the main depot of the Waffen-SS in Berlin for the inmates as well as the men themselves.
Q. Witness, it seems to me that we can now leave the field of your activities in the WVHA, and I would like to ask you something else; you joined the NSDAP at an early date, as your affidavit shows. This occurred in 1928, your party number was 93,508, you joined the Allgemeine SS in 1931 and your number was 2351. My question is; you met concentration camp inmates in 1943; were you in a position to do anything to change the lot of these people on the basis of your early party membership and SS membership; did you have any special influence on them and what was your position?
A. On 17 March 1933 I joined the Allgemeine SS and I joined the Leibstradarte as a simple SS man and then became a Strumbannfuehrer. My activities, I can say with a clear conscience, were purely military and I had no opportunity to change conditions any more than could any other officer of the army.
Q. Witness, will you tell the court very briefly your motives when you joined the Party?
A. I was trained as a merchant. When I had finished my training, I kept writing letters in order to find a decent job. My parents in 1923 had lost everything in the inflation. I would like to have gone to school if I had the money, but it was my experience that my father, mother, brother and I had to live on 11.40 marks per week. I thought to myself, this cannot go on and for this reason I became an agricultural worker and when I returned from there and found the same conditions that existed previously, I joined the volunteer labor service and worked in the Lueneburger Heide. I worked together with 18 other men and up to that time politics did not bother me at all. I must say that we were fortunate if we two boys had enough to eat in the evening. The conditions put to me were this: you can remain with us but you must join the Party. Any Party I would have joined under those conditions Why? Because I did not want to impose on my father and mother anymore burdens. I did not want to see my mother worried about how to feed us. That is why I joined the Party.
Q. How old were you at the time, witness?
A. I was then 19 or 20 years of age.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: Are your parents living now?
THE WITNESS: My mother is dead, she died during the course of this trial, but my father is still alive.
BY DR. HOFFMANN:
Q. How was it that you joined the SS, witness?
A. In 1930 or 1929 I returned from the volunteer labor service to Wolfenbuettel, which is my home town. Meanwhile, conditions had not changed in any sense of the word. I worked in quarries I wrote envelopes, I became a messenger, and there is nothing that I did not do at that time.
Then comrades came along. I lived in a town of 20,000 inhabitants and many of them went to school with me and we were on intimate terms. They said, "Come along and join the SS, the SS looks after you and they will find you a job." That may seem strange today, but at that time whether you joined the Anti-Fascists or any of the other 32 parties we had at that time, it was always the same story, each party helped itself and when you joined something they would help you along. I am telling you this story as it really was. Thereupon I met the director of a sugar factory near Wolfenbuettel, who as a matter of principle would employ only SS men. It was my intention to graduate in this work, because I thought perhaps this is a new job for me. That is the reason why I joined the SS.
Q. You joined the SS in 1930 and from that time onward you were in Wolfenbuettel; is that correct?
A. Yes.
Q. Until 1933 when the seizure of power occurred?
A. Yes.
Q. What did you do in the SS which was different from the SA, which was also in existence?
A. While the SA protected the halls during the meetings and was distributed throughout the hall, we were underneath the podium and we had to see that the speaker would not meet with an accident. After all formally in political meetings, freedom of speech was not always denied to everyone. Even I was invited one day by the Communist Deputy of the Brunswick Parliament to attend a meeting in that Parliament. I saw how people hit each other on the head with chairs and it became quite impossible for me to understand this. I felt they cannot lead the nation if they cannot lead each other. That is how it was in Germany at the time.
Q. I should like now to submit to the court, Scheide document No. 22 from Document Book 1. This is on page 38 of the English book and it will become Exhibit 19. I would like to read this document, because I think it is important. After the initial phrases, a man called Moehle, says:
"From 1929 until 1936 I was Police Commissioner and chief of the municipal police at Wolfenbuettel. After the government in Burnswick, to which country the town of Wolfenbuettel belongs, was taken over by the NSDAP, the Minister Klagges involved me in a disciplinary proceeding with the aim to discharge me from service. In 1935 after a proceeding of 3 years, the discharge was ordered and a pension was granted to me. The reason for the measures of the State Government was a political one.
"During the war, 1914-18 I was a company commander in an armament battalion. Herr Karl Scheide, the father of Rudolf Scheide, was a soldier in my company. Thus, as I know the latter, I also came to know his son Rudolf. He was a member of the general SS. When I became acquainted with him he was a young man of 20 or 21 years of age.
"I never noticed during my official activity that Herr Rudolf Scheide was an especially active member of the SS. As a result of my activity as chief of the city police in Wolfenbuettel during these stormy political times, I knew all persons who were to be classified as active for the National Socialist ideology. Herr Rudolf Scheide was not one of them. On the contrary, I know Herr Rudolf Scheide to be a reserved and decent man."
I submit this affidavit because of the fact that the police commissioner of the town where Scheide was living at the time as would be the case in all countries, knows everything about the political activity and ideology of a man.
BY DR. HOFFMANN:
Q: Witness, until 1933 we know now how your economy situation was. Did it change after 1933, and what were the opportunities which you were given after the NSDAP took over the government?
A: There were two possibilities for me. One was to take the political career in which case I could have become Ortsgruppenleiter, or the other was to go to an Ordensburg in order to take political training. I did not do that, and I had no intention to do so. At that time, I heard a rumor that an SS-Regiment was to be established in Berlin. What intentions were in back of this, I do not know. If you face the same situation as I where I reached the point where I earned 18 marks a week, I told myself "you must find some method to get out of all this misery." And I thought I might try in Berlin. For that reason, when it became quite clear that a regiment was going to be established, and that it was to be a regular troop unit, I decided to take the career of a soldier.
Q: What was your rank while in the Allgemeine-SS, and what was your rank when you were taken over into the Leibstandarte?
A: I joined the Leibstandarte as an Unterscharfuehrer of the Allgemeine-SS. When I went into the barracks, I had to become a recruit again and give up my former rank. I started at the bottom again as an SS man in the barracks.
Q: Did you leave the Allgemeine-SS when you joined the Leibstandarte?
A: When I joined the Leibstandarte, I left the Allgemeine-SS.
Q: What was the service you did with the Leibstandarte, tell us very briefly?
A: The service with the Leibstandarte might be considered by an outsider to be colossal. I want to sum this up very briefly. Anything new which occurs in Germany is always being regarded with very critical eyes in Germany. That applied to us as well. We were not in a position to issue now army orders. We had to observe the old ones. We were trained by members of the armed forces, were inspected by members of the armed forces, and were treated just like anybody else in the army. Our service was exactly the same, only we had to do more because we were always under the critical eyes of observers.
Q: Did you have any political training there?
A: The political training was given in exactly the same way as it is given by any company commander in the armed forces. He discussed the papers of the day. That is what we received in the way of political training.
DR. HOFFMANN: At this point, I would like to submit a document to the court which is Document No. 42. It is an affidavit which was submitted to the IMT, regarding the Waffen-SS and Leibstandarte. I shall make it Exhibit No. 20, in Book 2, page 109. I do not have to read from this document because it confirms, really, what Scheide has just testified.
BY DR. HOFFMANN:
Q: Witness, what was the special career you took with the Leibstandarte and what were your promotions?
A: I decided to take the career of a transportation officer in the Leibstandarte for the simple reason because the service of an infantry man became too monotonous for me. Therefore, I joined the transportation service.
Q: What duties did you perform with the Leibstandarte when the war broke out?
A: I went to Saarbruecken with this unit in the Saar area. I went to the Sudetenland and to Vienna with it.
Q: Witness, you were also there on the 9th of November 1938 when, on Goebbels' orders, the Jews had their windows smashed. What did you see on that day, what can you tell us about the share taken by the SS?
A: In that night, I stayed in the barracks. I stayed at the barracks because should something happen in the transportation service somebody should be around. Somebody telephoned me in my flat that night about halfpast eleven. And this order was issued by the officer of the day that the barracks are blocked, nobody must leave the barracks. You could not ask why on that occasion, and when the conversation came to an end, once again I telephoned the officer of the day. I asked him what was going on. He said, "There is an officers' meeting. Will you please come over?" I went upstairs to the staff officers' room, and all companies were alerted. Every soldier who had come back from leave went into the barracks and couldn't leave it again. After the alerting, arms were issued, and I cannot possibly describe to you the atmosphere. We had no idea why suddenly in the middle of the night, without any reason, we should be issued arms and ammunition. Then about two or three in the morning the regimental commander came back from the Reichs Chancellery and told us a Jewish Pogrom had taken place in Berlin, and the Leibstandarte was to be used to protect the population.
We did not know what he was talking about until the next day when we saw the smashed windows in Berlin. And I would like to assure you here that there was only one opinion:
This is madness.
DR. HOFFMANN: At this point I would like to submit a document about the 8th of November 1938 which is Document Scheide 37, in Book 2, and it will be Exhibit 21. This again is a Document from the IMT Trial, and it describes in great detail -- I am so sorry, I made a mistake here with the Document Number. I am talking about Document 36, if Your Honors please, which will be given Exhibit No, 21. It describes in great detail the events of the night of 9-10 November in the immediate neighborhood of Himmler's home. Through these descriptions, the testimony of Scheide is confirmed.
BY DR. HOFFMANN:
Q: Witness, where were you when you belonged to the Leibstandarte during the war?
A: I took part in all the campaigns of the Leibstandarte up to 1942: Poland, Holland, Belgium, France, Greece, and Russia.
Q: Witness, do you know anything of Himmler's Speech at Posen of 4 October 1943?
A: I did not know anything about the Posen Speech.
DR. HOFFMANN: At this time I would like to submit Document No. 37 from Document Book 2, which will become Exhibit No. 22. That again is a Document used before the IMT, and it shows beyond any doubt that the participants of the Posen Speech represented a definite circle of people, and that Himmler had told the man who gave the affidavit expressly that he was not allowed to say anything about the Posen speech, and that the man had to sign a piece of paper that if he should break the secrecy obligations, he would be liquidated.
You will find this on page 2 of Document 37.
Court No. II, Case No. 4.
DR. HOFFMAN (Counsel for defendant Scheide): Witness, you were a member of the Lebensborn. What did you think the Lebensborn was, and were you a particularly active member?
WITNESS: I know the Lebensborn only from the fact that on the first of each month I lost one Mark for the Lebensborn.
DR. HOFFMAN: What had become generally known about the Lebensborn becomes clear from an affidavit which I should like to submit as Scheide Document 41 and Exhibit 23. It is on page 104 of Document Book 2-
THE PRESIDENT: We will take the recess, Dr. Hoffman.
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal will recess for fifteen minutes.
(A recess was taken.)
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal is again in session.
DR. KLINERT: Dr. Klinert for the defendant Volk. Your Honor, I just want to suggest if the defendant Volk could possible be excused from the session tomorrow, all day long, to enable us to prepare his defense.
THE PRESIDENT: At the request of his counsel, the defendant Volk will be excused from the session tomorrow.
DR. HOFFMAN: May it please, Your Honor, I still have a few more basic questions to ask this witness.
THE PRESIDENT: May I inject a question, please.
DR. HOFFMAN: I say, I have a few more basic questions to ask the witness.
THE PRESIDENT: And I said, may I interrupt you to ask a question.
DR. HOFFMAN: Oh, I am sorry, Your Honor.
BY THE PRESIDENT:
Q Witness, except for one short period, did you have anything to do with transportation by railroad?
A Yes, indeed, your Honor.
Q During how long a period?
A Well, it started three months after the establishment of the office. For that particular task I had the Oberscharfuehrer transferred from the F.H.A. to my section. The way it worked, the central office of the transportation office for the SS and Police was in the Operational Main Office, and ours was nothing but a branch office of it, that is to say, the office of B-5, was nothing but a subsidiary office.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, all right.
BY DR. HOFFMAN:
Q Witness, would you please tell us what you had to do then in continuation of the President's question?
A Your Honors, the office used formerly to send all the requests concerning railroad transportation to the Operational Main Office from the WVHA. Each agency would do that on its own. However, the establishment of Office B-5, I got myself a Railroad Transportation Expert from the Operational Main Office, and brought him over to my section, and he collected the applications for rail transportation, in my office and passed them onto the Operational Main Office.
Q What did you do then, please?
A Then we transported clothing for the front lines, and clothing from the front lines back to homeland, for instance winter clothes had to be stored again in the summer. Then we transported for Amtsgruppe-C their whole construction material, that is, they would request wagons from our office, according to the special type of wagon. For instance, should there be calcium, if the calcium should be liquid, they had to have closed wagons, and if clothes they had to have the cloth wagons.
THE PRESIDENT: Railroad cars are known as wagons?
BY DR. HOFFMAN:
A Yes. In other words, there are certain types of wagons, and they were classified by each agency according to the types. With Amtsgruppe-C it was always listed as construction material; with Amtsgruppe-B they were listed as clothing and supplies Wefgong. Due to the fact that a transport say, in Hamburg, could not be landed the same war as a transport in Munich, for instance, or anywhere else in Germany, it was not always possible, for B-5 to control every individual transport. The idea now was that each agency had loaded those wagons according to prevailing regulations of the Wehrmacht. The sender was responsible for loading, and the receiver was responsible for unloading.
Q Did you ever carry out any transportation for Amtsgruppe-D?
A We never did transport anything for Amtsgruppe-D, unless one of the officers of Amtsgruppe-D requested so many wagons for the transportation of food. Let's say, then, it is possible that we gave them one, five or ten wagons but definitely not for inmates. During the entire period of time I was in charge of Office B-5 I never transported any concentration camp inmates; no such requests ever reached Office B-5.BY THE PRESIDENT:
Q Certain concentration camp inmates were transported in railroad cars?
A Yes, indeed, Your Honor.
Q Where did they get them?
A It is like this, Your Honor. I could not tell anything very precise. I shall, in a few days, introduce an affidavit written by some one who knows all about it. If I may anticipate from this affidavit now before, I will do so, but it would then not come from my own knowledge, however.
Q Well, we will wait for the affidavit then.
A Very well, Your Honor.
Q For example, if there were a thousand asocial persons, we will call them, still retained in the east to be transported to Auschwitz, you had nothing to do with furnishing transportation?
A No, Your Honor, I did not, nor did I ever know anything about it.
THE PRESIDENT: Oh.
BY JUDGE PHILLIPS:
Q I want to ask a question, please. Listening to your testimony very carefully I arrive at this conclusion in a general way. That you as Chief of B-5 of the WVHA in certain instances were subordinate to two main offices for certain purposes. Your office was subordinate to the Operational Main Office for certain duties, and for other duties to the WVHA. Is that correct?
A It is a little bit different, Your Honor. Basic orders concerning transportation, arms, and ammunition, and railroad transportation came from the Operational Main Offices, and never from the WVHA, and those were my three great fields of tasks.
Now then the situation is as follows: Of course, I was representing the interests of the WVHA, that is to say, I had to adjust the interests of the WVHA, to those of the Operational Main Office that is the task when one transfers experts from one office to another.
Q Didn't you have to transmit certain requisitions, certain requests from the WVHA to the Operational Main Office?
A Yes, indeed.
Q That is the way I understand it.
BY DR. HOFFMANN:
Q Witness, state again, please, in very few brief terms what requests of the Operational Main Office you passed on? Only in very brief terms.
A Railroad transport, or concerning everything:
Q Everything?
A Very well. In a very few brief terms, this is the way it worked; trucks, tires, fueld, spare parts, all were compiled in Office B-5 every month, according to precise models and orders. They were coordinated by B-5, and passed on to Operational Main Office. So far as weapons and ammunition were concerned, arms amounted to ten or twenty rifles, for some agency per month, or replacements, and this was written down monthly, as well. So far as practice ammunition was concerned, the requests came in every three months. It was nothing but a routine job, and nobody was too interested in it. Now with the rail transportation, it worked out that if and when you had transported something, the request was passed onto the Operational Main Office, and sent back through the same channel by telephone. That in very few brief terms were the tasks.
Q Witness, the SS regulations published, concerning for instance the way a SS man should behave. What was your opinion of those matters during the war?
A Your Honors, the whole thing developed in the following way: We used to read those gazettes in the old days.... Let me interrupt this. I would like to tell you a few things about the time when I was in the barracks - and then let me speak about the war.
As I stated before, the SS as well as the Wehrmacht, was doing its duty in the barracks, and as far as our tasks were concerned, we were equal to the Wehrmacht, because as far as maneuvers were concerned, we always had to work with the Wehrmacht. In other words, we had to fit exactly into that frame. The relationship of the Reich Leader towards the Leibstandarte is very important. I am not telling you something that is a secret. You can ask anybody in the Leibstandarte, and he will tell you about it. The Reich Leader was a man for us who was absolutely inscrutable, and I can really say that from those 4800 men of whom the Leibstandarte consisted at first, these men were the best, the crack men of Germany, who had been selected out of a whole nation and brought together into this barracks. From 70,000 volunteers who had volunteered and who were one meter, 80 centimeters tall, we accepted only 700 men as fit. In other words, we were in a position to select the very best men, and I can tell you that from my company of 186 men, 185 became officers; that is to say when the Waffen-SS was established, they became officers.
We did our duty, in sincere, manly, honest, and clean enthusiasm and I may say that I was there with pleasure, and I liked my duty. I was present in many parades, in many rallies, the Olympic Games, and on several other occasions we supplied the guards of honor. I went through the march into Austria, and I saw the cheering crowds. In other words, I saw National Socialism from the sunny side.
That was peace time. Then came the war, and that is the other side of the coin. We marched out and were just part of all the army units that were fighting out in the front line.
The SS was never the leading unit. We were always being led by the Wehrmacht. That at least applies up to 1942 when I was present. I never did experience that we were the leading unit. The Wehrmacht was always in charge.
Let me tell you something else which must also be told, because during that time there were always the fire service. We used to call ourselves the fire guards, because we were always assigned to these particular duties where there was a fire as it were. That is to say, where the mud was the deepest. We were always to be *ound there.
The same Wehrmacht generals who caused such a thing as Stalingrad, or did not have enough strength be say "No*, we are not going to play along with you, and we will not reduce our forces to 90,000 men", all these generals were not ashamed to gain their Ritterkreuze and their Oak leaves or their medals with our help, but then when I was interned in the camp I saw how everything was always being blamed on the SS, and I can really tell you that during the war, both in my own troop and all the incidents that occurred there, I forgot all my idealism, once and for all, and I would not go out a second time if they pushed me to it.
As far as the extermination of Jews is concerned, I can tell you that during the entire time when the whole nation of decent soldiers was struggling--because, after all, there were 12,000,000 soldiers out there--during all that time something was happening that was so horrible that one just can't find any words to explain it. Am I to excuse myself today for it? I can not excuse myself. All I can say is that I did not know it, and I can only add that, as Germans, we shall try to rehabilitate and repair all the damage we have done, and nothing else.
Q You were captured then, and you were in various PW camps. Now, will you tell me the names of the PW camps in which you were?
A I was in the PW camp Kematen. Then later on in Kamm. Immediately after that, in Regensbrug. That is all.
DR. HOFFMANN: I would like to produce for the Tribunal now from my Document Book No. 1, Scheide, Scheide Document 30, on Page 50 of This is a statement given by an American major who was in charge of a PW camp and who is telling us about the fact that the defendant Scheide had established a camp at Regensburg together with his SS Unit, and the same statement can be found in Document Book, Scheide, No. 1, Document 31 on page 51, and this is with reference to the first PW camp in which the defendant Scheide was, and in Document 32, Document No, 1, we can find a similar statement.