The way it worked, was that the rail transportation was requested by Amtsgruppe-B, that is to say for army depots and clothing depots, main depots, etc., etc., etc., and the same applied to Amtsgruppe-C, which had to procure construction material of those things which the agency then applied for, and they applied for them in our agency. As far as Amtsgruppe-W is concerned, because they were economic enterprises, and as far as I was concerned, they were private and civilian enterprises, we did not put any transportation at their disposal, because I did not have the right to request transports with the Operational Main Office. The same applied to Amtsgruppe-D, Amtsgruppe-D did not request any transportation from my office. I believe I will be able to introduce an affidavit later on, and I am quite convinced that this question of transportation, particularly of the inmate transportation system, is clearly explained in this affidavit. I really can not state anything at all about it, because we did not receive any request for the transportation of inmates.
Q. Could you freely dispose over railway transportation particularly where transportation was concerned which had been applied for through your office by these various agencies? Could you, for instance, place ten railroad wagons at the disposal of the Amtsgruppe C for transportation and then ten for another Amtsgruppe and then just communicate between the two and divide your railroad Wagons?
A. The same applied here what applied to motor transportation. We had considerable difficulty in the procurement of railroad wagons. There were certain priorities in the rail transport system. The first priority was given to front line replacements the transportation of armies, the ammunition supplies, clothing, etc., etc. Then came the homeland, then the WVHA, and in the home land, they already had certain priority for supply transportation.
Such requests were placed in the following manner: Let's assume that the clothing depot was located at Stremberg. The whole railroad train did the transporting of clothing to the front line. B-5 called up this Oberscharfuehrer by telephone, and told him, we need for transportation to Dnjeprpetrowsk one whole train for clothes wagons. The way it was carried out was that he forwarded the telephone call to the Operational Main Office, and then in addition to the Operational Main Office there was a central office for the SS transportation problem in Germany proper. That central office contacted the office, and affirmed it, and then assigned the priority number to that particular person requesting it. That priority number was again passed on to the various agencies, and this was a special pass as far as the rail transportation office was concerned. The reloading and unloading, Office B-5 never saw. This entire task was taken care of by an Oberscharfuehrer.
Q. Witness, I would like to show you a document now concerning this matter and this is Document Scheide No. 17 in Document Book Scheide No. I. Would you please comment on this?
A. During my first examination here I stated without remembering all the details, namely, that the central office for the executive matters and supervision of the SS and Police was the Operational Main Office. The transportation officer had his office in Gerlin in the Operational Main Office Building, and for this purpose he had those officers as contained under "A" in paragraph 1, SS Transportation Officer "East", South-east, south, west, northwest, Paris, Russia, north of Riga, central Russia in Minsk, and south Russia in the upper Dnjeprropetrowsk. All the transportation problems which were compiled somewhere abroad were reported to the transportation officer of the Operational Main Office, and from there they called directly to the Operational Main Office.
What I mean to say by that is that all transports including those of the WVHA which came from abroad did not have to be cleared through the long telephone communication system, and that the request from France to Berlin, but they were requested from the nearest transportation office of the of the SS in Paris itself. Transports arrived from agencies of the WVHA of which we did not only have any knowledge but of which we did not have to have any knowledge, because we had no connections whatsoever with their technical aspects. Therefore, the whole idea here was to supervise those transports in Germany as far as they were still possible in spite of the damage which was done to them and to submit requests from the WVHA to the Operational Main Office.
Q. With respect to all of those requests, did you ever receive a request for transportation from Munich?
A. The WVHA, apart from Amtsgruppe-D, did not carry out any transportation of human beings. Those rail transportation orders by the Waffen-SS explained quite clearly what was to be transported, and what not. In dealing with this subject, in one document introduced here before, it is pointed out explicitly that Amtsgruppe-D is not an exception in the question when accidents occurred. In reference to the full extent of this transportation order which we have here, I am convinced that all inmate transports are carried out on the largest scale, and if an order for a complete seizure of all those things had originated towards the middle of 1943, Amtsgruppe-D, would not forget them.
THE PRESIDENT: This is a good time for recess.
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal will recess until 1345 hours.
(Whereupon the Tribunal recessed until 1345 hours, 10 July 1947).
AFTERNOON SESSION
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal is again in session RUDOLF SCHEIDE - Resumed DIRECT EXAMINATION - Continued BY DR. HOFFMANN:
Q Witness, before lunch we had discussed railroad transports, and I would like to put a final question to you. When you worked on that problem, did you ever hear anything about transports of inmates to Auschwitz or other extermination camps?
A No.
DR. HOFFMANN: I would like to submit to the Court, in connection with the answer the defendant has just given, Documents 20 and 21 from Document Book 1, which will be Exhibit 16. I'm sorry-Document 21 from Document Book 1, which will be Exhibit 16. I have already offered Document 20. This is an extract from the minutes of the session of the International Military Tribunal, and it deals with the transport of 50,000 Jews from Greece.
THE PRESIDENT: Which document is Exhibit 15, please?
DR. HOFFMANN: I'm sorry; it should be 15.
THE PRESIDENT: Document No. 17 was Exhibit 14?
DR. HOFFMANN: Yes.
THE PRESIDENT: And this is the next one, is it not?
DR. HOFFMANN: It is the second next one. It is Scheide Document 21.
THE PRESIDENT: Number 15, all right.
DR. HOFFMANN: The question of transports is dealt with here, and this record shows clearly that the WVHA did not arrange these transports, consequently the defendant Scheide can not have been connected with them. Although we are concerned with only one transport in this case, it can be assumed that other transports were handled similarly.
BY DR. HOFFMANN:
Q Witness, I am now reaching a third field of tasks which you were concerned with. In your affidavit you stated that you were an expert in arms and ammunition. The expression "arms and ammunition" -- is that an official designation, or what was your field of tasks?
A The expression "arms and ammunition" became familiar in the course of the war. It became clear from the front that arms and ammunition were the most important things for a soldier, and that is how I became used to this expression. The actual expression should not be "arms and ammunition", but "arms and equipment". From that point of view, my affidavit is wrong because it does not give the correct title, "arms and equipment".
Q.- For what agencies did you have to carry out the supplies for the whole of the WVHA? What directives did you have?
A.- Only the army orders.
Q.- Did that include supplies for Office Group D?
A.- Including Office Group D, yes.
Q.- Witness, in this connection I would like to discuss your work and reconstruct it on the basis of the document books. For that purpose I submit from Document Book Scheide I, Document 13, page 17 of the English document book. This will become Exhibit No. 16. In that document a complete list is contained. What was done by the Defendant Scheide in this connection. Will you please describe to the Court in detail what you had to do and what you didn't do in this respect?
A.- To go back to the beginning, the field of tasks, weapons and equipment, was handled on the basis of army orders, and they were published in the Official Gazette of the Waffen-SS, in Document No. 13. All requests had to be directed to the group, Weapons and Equipment, in the Main Operational Office. Equipment or initial provision with weapons, for instance, when new guard units were established, Office B-V did not have anything to do with it. It was done by direct arrangement between the Main Operational Office and the agency for supplying the troops, for instance, Luftwaffe, Army, etc. The account of weapons kept in B-V, as far as I can remember today, contained, for instance, 15,000 rifles, and that means from the whole of the WVHA, including all its agencies. All I can imagine, therefore, as it is here for the first time that I have heard of 40,000 guard units, that these units which were transferred from the Army had brought their own weapons along. That can only have been arranged by the Chief of the Main Operational Office, or his deputy or Office Group W, Arms and Equipment.
Q.- Now II, "Current supply with weapons, equipment and ammunition."
A.- That is contained in Paragraph 2 in this document. All requests for ammunition had to be submitted to SS-Operational Main Office. The supply would be effected depending on what stocks were available.
Requests had to be made out in accordance with the sample as par annex 2 and they had to be submitted in three copies. Special attention had to be given to the explanation given in the example.
On the next page, Paragraph 3, "Current supplies of ammunition": The replacement units must compute their requirements of practice ammunition according to the Practice Ammunition Decree" of the Chief of Army equipment, to call the thing by its proper name, because the abbreviation will not be intelligible, and the Commander in Chief of the Reserve Army, of 6 December 1940. The ammunition must be obtained directly from the competent Army ammunition depots. The Army ammunition depots are mentioned in the General Army Bulletin 42, No. 760."
"The replacement units report to the SS-Operational Main Office, Section Ib on the 5 January, 5 April, 5 July and 5 October of each year the quantity of practice ammunition used during the passed 3 months in accordance with the above-mentioned Practice Ammunition Decree. The reports have to be made in accordance with the sample submitted with decree Ib, dated 20 December 1940.
THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Hoffmann, this defendant is not charged with supplying ammunition to the Wehrmacht or to the SS. How is this important, this document?
DR. HOFFMANN: Mr. President, what I wanted was to describe the activity as fully as possible, and ammunition was part of his duties, and on the basis of these decrees he did his work.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, there is nothing wrong with his supplying ammunition to the Wehrmacht and the SS. That isn't charged as a crime. That was his duty.
DR. HOFFMANN: If the Tribunal takes this attitude and includes there in the equipment of the guard units in the concentration camps, I shall only be too happy to leave this point.
THE PRESIDENT: There was nothing wrong in supplying ammunition to the guards in the concentration camps. They were SS soldiers and they needed guns and ammunition. Nothing wrong about that.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: I just might add, Dr. Hoffmann, that unless it can be shown that he, the defendant, was aware that the ammunition was being used improperly, inhumanely, and there are some documents to the effect that guards shot down inmates, the mere supplying of ammunition in itself is certainly a legal activity, especially in time of war.
Q. (By Dr. Hoffmann)- To leave this point now, I shall now talk about a side issue contained in the affidavit of the Defendant Scheide, and which might be of interest to this Court. In your affidavits you stated that you were going to build up SS-shipping. Will you please tell the Court briefly what the position was there?
A.- By the middle of 1943 an order of the Reichsfuehrer came out which reached Pohl and was addressed to the Chief of the WVHA to look into the economic implications of SS-shipping on the Black Sea. This was to be built up and established, SS freight ships of 100,000 tons. This proposition originated from General Gerloff who was the Chief of the SS and Police Academy. The idea was that transport ships should bring supplies to the eastern front. They should take the route through the Danube and the Black Sea to the Crimea, etc. Pohl then gave me the order to go to Vienna and use the harbor installations in Vienna on the Danube, and to discuss it with the engineer of the Police and SS Academy. The WVHA was to look after the economic implications of this idea, to establish the whole thing. I went to Vienna together with General Gerloff and looked into matters there. I looked at the shipbuilding yards which we were to be established I returned and told Pohl, suggested to him not to go through with this because we didn't have the ships as yet. When the first ship would reach Vienna then the time would be ripe to construct the shipbuilding yards. As our first ship had not reached Vienna yet we did not do anything about it. That is what I had to do with SS-shipping.
Q.- In your affidavit, Witness, you mentioned the name "Kammler" and it can be seen from your affidavit that Kammler once requested you to work for him. Please tell the Court about that.
A.- As I was working in Office Group C in transportation matters, I knew, of course, Gruppenfuehrer Kammler. Kammler, in the winter of '42 to '43 received the order from the Reichsfuehrer, as I knew, and I also knew later on, to establish the V-weapons. He expected me to give him about 1,000 tons of trucks for that purpose through our Main Operational Office. I established contact with Juettner as Chief of the Main Operational Office. He knew about Kammler's order and declined point blank because the Waffen-SS would never be in a position to equip the chief of army equipment with lorries. Kammler did this, not in his capacity as Chief of Office Group C but on orders of Speer, or at least agencies which were outside the WVHA and the Waffen-SS. Therefore, we did not equip them with the trucks because we did not have them for those purposes, nor were we competent to do so. The trucks came then from the Chief of the OKW, the Chief of Transportation in the OKW, from the Luftwaffe, the Army, the Navy, Todt Organization, etc, to Kammler, including all technical personnel.
Q.- Therefore, within the framework of Action Reinhardt you did not arrange for any transportation or transfers of inmates?
A.- No, and I didn't hear anything about it either.
Q.- Towards the end of the war did your duties change?
Court No. II, Case No. 4.
AAt the end of the War, roughly from the middle of 1944 onwards, I worked very closely together with the Chief of the Army Transportation Services, General Koll. What we had to do there, as I mentioned before, was to concentrate the balance of the trucks which had been left over and to use them as economically as possible. He needed expert transportation officers for that purpose who had experience both at the front and at home. All relevant Army orders had to be known to these officers which is the reason why it was intended to release me from the WVHA altogether and transfer me to General Koll who was the Chief of the Army Transportation Services.
Q Did you remain in Berlin until the end of the War because of that task?
A General Koll gave the following order: The situation was that at the end of the War, when the front approached Berlin more and more closely, the machines had reached Berlin to a distance of 28 kilometers. There was a front between the Oder and Berlin. The front had gone to the North and it was that anything available in the way of trucks or motor cars was used by people to transfer private families and they had hoarded fuel to take evasive action toward the South. This reached such dimensions that it became impossible to take action at all and General Koll attempted to do what he could. When we took evasive action to the South from Berlin, and even before, General Koll gave me the order to go with 35 officers and take such trucks which were not on important duties and confiscate them. That task had nothing to do with WVHA. It was a typical Air Force business, arranged at the order of General Koll.
Q Now, where did this task take you at the end of the War?
AAt the end of the War I collaborated with the representative of General Koll which was Brigadefuehrer Zimmermann. I should mention that the task was subdivided between the South and the North. Brigadefuehrer Zimmermann, as Chief of the Transportation Services acted in Bavaria. The idea was to have these trucks confiscated in order to Court No. II, Case No. 4.supply the Alpine Redoubt.
We confiscated altogether about 10,000 tons of transportation space. Supplies were loaded on the trucks and we also used ships on the Danube. Cities like Munich were supplied in this way. What became of that organization -- it was then just being built up because on paper we now had 10,000 tons of vehicles but I never saw the vehicles only on paper nor did I see the officers again because the advance of the American Armored Armies crowded out this organization and everything blew up so to speak. I had my office in Pullach near Munich in a former Army office.
Q Witness, at the end of the War you were in Berlin. Did you have anything to do with the evacuation of any of the concentration camps such as Sachsenhausen, for instance?
A I would like to say this. I described what the transportation situation was. It would have been quite impossible to arrange for people to be transported. There was a clear order by Hitler that no people must be transported, neither by rail nor by trucks. The reason for this was quite clearly that ammunition and equipment supplies, etc., had to reach the front. No member of the civilian population was allowed to be transported in the course of the years, particularly at the end. I had neither requests for railroad transportation nor for truck transportation in order to transfer or evacuate concentration camps. I would not have been able to carry them out because the situation and the shortage of trucks would have made it impossible.
Q I would like to submit a document concerning the concentration camp Sachsenhausen. This is Document No. 33 which is in Document Book 2. I have already submitted that. I would merely like to draw the court's attention to this document, particularly to page 71 of Document Book 2, about the question of the evacuation of concentration camps. The former commandant of the Concentration Camp Sachsenhausen says in the last paragraph: "On April 18, 1945, I received the verbal order from the Chief of the Office Group D Gluecks to requisition the ships, lying in the West Harbor of Berlin, to take them to Lohnitz Lake Court No. II, Case No. 4.via the Lohenzollern Canal and to ship the Sachsenhausen inmates through the canals to the North Sea and the Baltic Sea.
I refused to carry out this order and suggested once more that the camp should be handed over to the International Red Cross. Gluecks was furious about my refusal and threatened to report me to Himmler. I did not carry out the requisition of the ships, thus this mad scheme was not carried out."
Witness, when the War ended you were in Bavaria. Were you taken prisoner?
A Yes, together with another 13 men, my drivers. I went and surrendered to the Americans as a prisoner. This was at the frontier of Tyrol. I was in uniform at the time. I had with me about 86 drivers, all of whom I had sent to the Tyrolean area and I went in my full uniform without taking anything away from it. I was then taken to Camp Derndorf and from Derndorf to Kematen. And in Kematen as the most senior SS man I left the camp ....
Q We will talk about that later. Witness, I would like to come back to your activity in the WVHA. From the statements made by Sommer it became clear that you also had a work shop which was part of the Motor Pool and that in that work shop inmates were working, concentration camp inmates. When were they sent there and how many were there?
A When on the first of October 1942 I took over B-V in the WVHA I inspected the offices, the Motor Pool and the work shop - and they all existed. Twenty inmates were working in the work shop. To speak quite frankly I didn't notice anything peculiar about that. I had no misgivings. I was just back from the front and all my other tasks were occupying my mind to such an extent that I did not notice anything peculiar. A little later, 4 to 6 weeks later perhaps, when I re-visited the work shop I saw the inmates in their striped uniforms and I told myself the following: To anticipate a little, it was the purpose of penal institutes to lend inmates to work shops for a certain compensation. So, I knew that these were people who had been punished.
Court No. II, Case No. 4.
I had never seen a concentration camp before, nor did I know anything about concentration camps at that moment. I had been at the front since 1939 and I felt I didn't want to have these people around my place. I didn't want them with my young men. I insisted they be sent back at once. As these men had worked together with these men for a long time the inmates knew this. The leader of the inmates asked me would I please talk to him when I came by the next time. When I went past the work shop again I asked the leader of the inmates to come and see me and I would see what he wanted me to do. Let me describe our conversation as literally as possible. I was Sturmbannfuehrer. He said, "Sturmbannfuehrer, please do us one favor. Please let us work here because here we have a good job and if you send us back to the camp again then we become part of the hord and must look for a new job.
Q I would like to submit two affidavits to the court before the witness comments any more about this point. They are in Document Book I, Document Scheide No. 24 which will become Exhibit 17, and Scheide No. 23 which will become Exhibit 18. As these statements are so important I would like to read these two affidavits, first Document 24 which is on page 42 of the English Document Book: After the usual initial sentences he states:
"I have known Herr Scheide since the beginning of 1936 and I was employed on his recommendation in the motor vehicle workshop of the Leibstandarte as a painter. I am neither a party member nor did I belong to any other organization. I can only confirm that Herr Scheide was a refined and decent man towards his subordinates and he was also a good comrade. I can only confirm that he treated the prisoners who were assigned to us in 1943 like human beings. This was confirmed by several prisoners personally.
(Signed) Wilhelm Ehlers" And then Document Scheide 23 on page 40 reads as follows after the usual initial sentences:
"I have known Herr Scheide since 1935. I worked under his supervision in the workshop of the Leibstandarte as a motor mechanic. I, myself, am not a member of the party and I also did not belong to any other organizations."
I skip the next bit and I shall read the next paragraph:
"In the year 1942-43..." I should like to remark this was before Scheide's time.
"...skilled workers from the concentration camps were assigned to us. From a higher authority we received the order to be very reserved toward these prisoners. One day Herr Scheide came to me and asked: 'Huge, how is your prisoner working?' I replied that I was very satisfied, that he was a very industrious and decent man. Then he asked me under pledge of the utmost secrecy: 'Do me a favor and be decent to them, one must have pity on these poor lads.' Then he shook my hand and went away. Once I asked my prisoner what he thought about Herr Scheide. He replied: 'He is a fine man and we all like him very much.'" Now, about that affidavit, witness, I should like to ask you why did you say at the time that the workers should treat the concentration camp inmates decently?
Were you sorry for them?
A By that I mean my motor mechanics, not my inmates. I could have ordered them to treat these men decently and I would have achieved the same thing, but what I wanted to do in this case was to appeal to the human side of my men, because these people who had to walk around in striped uniforms and shorn hair you should feel sorry for. I would like to explain why these inmates came to the Leibstandarte as they had nothing to do with the Leibstandarte. In 1943 we had a very severe air raid on the Leibstandarte. May I explain briefly, even if it seems unimaineable, all of the Leibstandarte was on fire, the whole house was one great wave of fire and the last man was used against this fire in order to get it under control and the workshop of the W.V.H.A. burned down completely.
The damage amounted to 350,000 marks. In the barracks of the Leibstandarte Hitler there were 7,000 men who served as a unit and it became possible to extinguish these 1,000 fire bombs. I was in charge of the work shop and on behalf of the field unit of the Leibstandarte thereupon I used the inmates there. That was the first time I had any contact with my civilian workers. I would not mention this if it did not seem necessary to say the following; when we switched over to genevator gas all drivers of the SS were given additional food rations because it became clear on the basis of this new gas slight symptoms of poisoning became noticeable. I thought it was completely obvious for me to see that the inmates did receive the exact food rations like the men. The chief of office group B, who was Gruppenfuehrer Loerner, gave me the permission to obtain additional supplies from the main depot of the Waffen-SS in Berlin for the inmates as well as the men themselves.
Q. Witness, it seems to me that we can now leave the field of your activities in the WVHA, and I would like to ask you something else; you joined the NSDAP at an early date, as your affidavit shows. This occurred in 1928, your party number was 93,508, you joined the Allgemeine SS in 1931 and your number was 2351. My question is; you met concentration camp inmates in 1943; were you in a position to do anything to change the lot of these people on the basis of your early party membership and SS membership; did you have any special influence on them and what was your position?
A. On 17 March 1933 I joined the Allgemeine SS and I joined the Leibstradarte as a simple SS man and then became a Strumbannfuehrer. My activities, I can say with a clear conscience, were purely military and I had no opportunity to change conditions any more than could any other officer of the army.
Q. Witness, will you tell the court very briefly your motives when you joined the Party?
A. I was trained as a merchant. When I had finished my training, I kept writing letters in order to find a decent job. My parents in 1923 had lost everything in the inflation. I would like to have gone to school if I had the money, but it was my experience that my father, mother, brother and I had to live on 11.40 marks per week. I thought to myself, this cannot go on and for this reason I became an agricultural worker and when I returned from there and found the same conditions that existed previously, I joined the volunteer labor service and worked in the Lueneburger Heide. I worked together with 18 other men and up to that time politics did not bother me at all. I must say that we were fortunate if we two boys had enough to eat in the evening. The conditions put to me were this: you can remain with us but you must join the Party. Any Party I would have joined under those conditions Why? Because I did not want to impose on my father and mother anymore burdens. I did not want to see my mother worried about how to feed us. That is why I joined the Party.
Q. How old were you at the time, witness?
A. I was then 19 or 20 years of age.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: Are your parents living now?
THE WITNESS: My mother is dead, she died during the course of this trial, but my father is still alive.
BY DR. HOFFMANN:
Q. How was it that you joined the SS, witness?
A. In 1930 or 1929 I returned from the volunteer labor service to Wolfenbuettel, which is my home town. Meanwhile, conditions had not changed in any sense of the word. I worked in quarries I wrote envelopes, I became a messenger, and there is nothing that I did not do at that time.
Then comrades came along. I lived in a town of 20,000 inhabitants and many of them went to school with me and we were on intimate terms. They said, "Come along and join the SS, the SS looks after you and they will find you a job." That may seem strange today, but at that time whether you joined the Anti-Fascists or any of the other 32 parties we had at that time, it was always the same story, each party helped itself and when you joined something they would help you along. I am telling you this story as it really was. Thereupon I met the director of a sugar factory near Wolfenbuettel, who as a matter of principle would employ only SS men. It was my intention to graduate in this work, because I thought perhaps this is a new job for me. That is the reason why I joined the SS.
Q. You joined the SS in 1930 and from that time onward you were in Wolfenbuettel; is that correct?
A. Yes.
Q. Until 1933 when the seizure of power occurred?
A. Yes.
Q. What did you do in the SS which was different from the SA, which was also in existence?
A. While the SA protected the halls during the meetings and was distributed throughout the hall, we were underneath the podium and we had to see that the speaker would not meet with an accident. After all formally in political meetings, freedom of speech was not always denied to everyone. Even I was invited one day by the Communist Deputy of the Brunswick Parliament to attend a meeting in that Parliament. I saw how people hit each other on the head with chairs and it became quite impossible for me to understand this. I felt they cannot lead the nation if they cannot lead each other. That is how it was in Germany at the time.
Q. I should like now to submit to the court, Scheide document No. 22 from Document Book 1. This is on page 38 of the English book and it will become Exhibit 19. I would like to read this document, because I think it is important. After the initial phrases, a man called Moehle, says:
"From 1929 until 1936 I was Police Commissioner and chief of the municipal police at Wolfenbuettel. After the government in Burnswick, to which country the town of Wolfenbuettel belongs, was taken over by the NSDAP, the Minister Klagges involved me in a disciplinary proceeding with the aim to discharge me from service. In 1935 after a proceeding of 3 years, the discharge was ordered and a pension was granted to me. The reason for the measures of the State Government was a political one.
"During the war, 1914-18 I was a company commander in an armament battalion. Herr Karl Scheide, the father of Rudolf Scheide, was a soldier in my company. Thus, as I know the latter, I also came to know his son Rudolf. He was a member of the general SS. When I became acquainted with him he was a young man of 20 or 21 years of age.
"I never noticed during my official activity that Herr Rudolf Scheide was an especially active member of the SS. As a result of my activity as chief of the city police in Wolfenbuettel during these stormy political times, I knew all persons who were to be classified as active for the National Socialist ideology. Herr Rudolf Scheide was not one of them. On the contrary, I know Herr Rudolf Scheide to be a reserved and decent man."
I submit this affidavit because of the fact that the police commissioner of the town where Scheide was living at the time as would be the case in all countries, knows everything about the political activity and ideology of a man.
BY DR. HOFFMANN:
Q: Witness, until 1933 we know now how your economy situation was. Did it change after 1933, and what were the opportunities which you were given after the NSDAP took over the government?
A: There were two possibilities for me. One was to take the political career in which case I could have become Ortsgruppenleiter, or the other was to go to an Ordensburg in order to take political training. I did not do that, and I had no intention to do so. At that time, I heard a rumor that an SS-Regiment was to be established in Berlin. What intentions were in back of this, I do not know. If you face the same situation as I where I reached the point where I earned 18 marks a week, I told myself "you must find some method to get out of all this misery." And I thought I might try in Berlin. For that reason, when it became quite clear that a regiment was going to be established, and that it was to be a regular troop unit, I decided to take the career of a soldier.
Q: What was your rank while in the Allgemeine-SS, and what was your rank when you were taken over into the Leibstandarte?
A: I joined the Leibstandarte as an Unterscharfuehrer of the Allgemeine-SS. When I went into the barracks, I had to become a recruit again and give up my former rank. I started at the bottom again as an SS man in the barracks.
Q: Did you leave the Allgemeine-SS when you joined the Leibstandarte?
A: When I joined the Leibstandarte, I left the Allgemeine-SS.
Q: What was the service you did with the Leibstandarte, tell us very briefly?
A: The service with the Leibstandarte might be considered by an outsider to be colossal. I want to sum this up very briefly. Anything new which occurs in Germany is always being regarded with very critical eyes in Germany. That applied to us as well. We were not in a position to issue now army orders. We had to observe the old ones. We were trained by members of the armed forces, were inspected by members of the armed forces, and were treated just like anybody else in the army. Our service was exactly the same, only we had to do more because we were always under the critical eyes of observers.
Q: Did you have any political training there?
A: The political training was given in exactly the same way as it is given by any company commander in the armed forces. He discussed the papers of the day. That is what we received in the way of political training.
DR. HOFFMANN: At this point, I would like to submit a document to the court which is Document No. 42. It is an affidavit which was submitted to the IMT, regarding the Waffen-SS and Leibstandarte. I shall make it Exhibit No. 20, in Book 2, page 109. I do not have to read from this document because it confirms, really, what Scheide has just testified.
BY DR. HOFFMANN:
Q: Witness, what was the special career you took with the Leibstandarte and what were your promotions?