Official Transcript of the American Military Tribunal in the matter of the United States of America, against Wilhelm List et al, defendants, sitting at Nurnberg, Germany, on 24, October 1947, 0930, Justice Wennerstrum presiding.
THE MARSHAL: Persons in the Courtroom will please find their seats.
The Honorable, the judges of Military Tribunal V. Military Tribunal V is now in session. God save the United States of America and this Honorable Tribunal.
There will be order in the Court.
THE PRESIDENT: Mr. Marshal, will you ascertain if the defendants are all present in the Court?
THE MARSHAL: May it please Your Honor, all the defendants are present in the Courtroom except the Defendant von Weichs, who is in the hospital, and the Defendant Felmy, who has been excused for interrogation.
THE PRESIDENT: You may proceed with your examination, Dr. Sauter.
DEFENDANT KURT von GEITNER - Resumed DIRECT EXAMINATION - (Continued) BY DR. SAUTER:
Q Witness, yesterday at the end of your examination you talked about an order concerning the treatment of military missions. This is one of those orders in which there is the note that it is to be destroyed as soon as it has been read. Now, it would be of interest to me if you would tell the Tribunal something about German practice concerning the way in which such an order is carried out, how it happened that it did not even come to the knowledge of the troops.
AAs far as I remember the contents of the order were to have been discussed with the Commanders and of subordinate units, but I don't remember this order any longer, now do I know what happened in accordance with this order with reference to the instruction or the informing of subordinate commanders. As far as I know, at that time, we had no German divisions -- only the 1st Bulgarian Occupation Corps. And I am very sorry that I can't remember what happened.
Q Witness, well, let's take the case in the area of the Serbian command. Supposing a military mission was captured and the troops reported this to their headquarters. Then, what steps would you have taken then?
A I?
Q Yes, you or your Commander.
A I wouldn't have taken any steps. This was a decision which would have been made by my Commander. I don't think that he would have followed the order. But he would certainly have ordered that these people would be taken into prisoner camps, precisely the same thing as happened to the prisoners at Alexinas.
Q Witness, I now come to another document with which you are charged, namely, the so-called Italian Order, dated the 11th of September 1943, Document Book XIII, Page 41 of the German text, and Page 55 of the English text, Document NOKW-910, Exhibit 327. I think you can be very brief about your opinion of this order. Did you have anything at all to do with this order?
A I don't know whether it reached us. We had no Italians. Italians came over the Montenegro Frontier amongst whom there were also Fascists, and these Italians were deported. As far as I can remember from the War Diaries the non-Fascists were deported at once, and the Fascists were used for labor allocation.
Q They were deported?
A Yes.
Q By deportation you mean as prisoners of war?
A Yes, as prisoners of war.
Q And now I come to a document which belongs to Count 14 of the Indictment, and you are charged with this count. This talks about the issue or the passing on of orders, about the imprisonment of Serbian inhabitants in concentration camps, forced labor of Serbian civilians.
and about deportation for slave labor. The period is given as September 1939 until 1945. Herr von Geitner, I ask you now were you in any way involed in the affair which has been mentioned in Serbia, and, if so, in which way and how far were you responsible for this?
MR. RAPP: Maybe Dr. Sauter can give us the reference in Document Book XIV to which he is referring.
DR. SAUTER: A document with reference to Herr von Geitner is not given to this point, as far as I remember. At any rate I didn't find it. It states only in the Indictment that the Defendants, that also includes Herr von Geitner, were said to have participated in the affair mentioned. But after studying the document books I couldn't find which document was referred to by the Prosecution with regard to Herr von Geitner. Therefore, that is the only point in which I cannot show the Defendant a certain document.
MR. RAPP: I would like to inquire whether I have been mistaken that Dr. Sauter referred in connection with this question to Document Book XIV initially, and if it has no bearing on this issue we should have it stricken out of the record. It only leads to confusion.
DR. SAUTER: No, that is a mistake by Mr. Rappa. The Indictment is currently numbered, and this point which I am dealing with at the moment is No. 14 in the Indictment. So that everyone can ascertain which point of the Indictment Herr von Geitner's answers refer to, when I ask the question, I mentioned No. 14. That is, this point in the Indictment.
BY DR. SAUTER:
Q Now, Herr von Geitner, I can't show you a certain document with regard to this point because I don't know which documents the Prosecution has in mind, but nevertheless, I would like to ask you to say something with regard to this charge. Did you become guilty in any way concerning this point?
A No, first of all, with regard to the question of the so called concentration camps.
Q Were there such concentration camps?
A Yes.
Q Please always make a pause, Herr von Geitner. What I told you yesterday also goes for today. After the question you must always wait a little. Please continue.
A Yes, mention is often made in the files about concentration camps, especially the concentration camp Semlin. The same camp as also quite often called a collection camp. It was not a concentration camp in the sense applied to concentration camps today. It was exclusively in charge of the Higher SS and Police Leader and served to accommodate prisoners from the band fighting.
Q Herr von Geitner, was this so-called concentration camp or collection camp of Semlin on Serbian soil?
A. No.
Q. But--
A. On Croatian soil.
Q. And who established this collection camp? Was it done by the Commander Serbia or by you personally, or by somebody else?
A. It was set up by the Higher SS and Police Leader.
Q. Witness , as Chief of the General Staff of the Commander Serbia did you have anything to do with this collection camp or with any other collection camps in Serbia during your period of service?
A. Officially, no.
Q. Did you have any kind of supervision over the camp?
A. No.
Q. And did you have the possibility of getting into the camp at all in order to find out yourself about the conditions there?
A. No, I didn't interfere with this matter because I know that the Higher SS and Police Leader wouldn't let strange persons into the camp, but I didn't have any control function at all.
Q. Do you know who was actually and finally responsible for this camp?
A. Only the Higher SS and Police Leader.
Q. And wasn't the Croatian Government also responsible for it?
A. The Croatian Government was supposed to supply the food for it and arrange for the transporting of people whom the Higher SS and Police Leader, not in accordance with orders, wanted for forced labor.
Q. You say, Witness, that you also not competent for this camp and were not responsible. But nevertheless, in spite of this, did you not take any trouble at all to take an interest in the conditions in this camp?
A. Yes, in this way: I was told--I don't know by whom--that the sanitary arrangements in this camp were not in order. This I brougnt to the attention of the Higher SS and Police Leader, and I called the adju tant of the leading medical officer to me.
I don't know what the adjutant was; he was some kind of a medical orderly. I don't know why the leading medical officer himself didn't come. He was probably away. And on behalf of my Commander I told him that they should do something about these conditions and bring the matter in order again in agreement with the Higher SS and Police Leader.
Q. Witness, who was your Commander at that time?
A. If I remember correctly at that time, when I received the first news, General Bader was on leave. And I reported it to Maj. Gen. Hinghofer, and later on, when Bader returned, I told him.
Q. And do you know, witness whether General Bader himself discussed the bad conditions in the Semlin camp with the Higher SS and Police Leader ?
A. Yes.
Q. What do you know about it?
A. I remember a very excited conversation in which General Bader talked about other things and also demanded that the Semlin camp be brought into order.
Q. Witness, what was the attitude of the Higher SS and Police Leader with regard to this demand made by General Bader; especially, was he in agreement with the fact that your doctor, that is the doctor of the Commander Serbia, should visit the camp?
A. I don't know details about it any longer, but in any case, first of all, he refused the chief medical officer entrance into the camp, and after the conversation with Bader he finally gave his consent.
Q. And then what did the doctor of the Commander Serbia report to you, and what happened then?
A. He reported to the Commander that by installing delousing unit etc. we would bring the camp into order again, and this did happen.
Q. Witness, do you know anything about the fact that in Serbia there were also reprisal prisoner camps set up by order of General Bader?
A. Yes, simultaneously with the new formulation or his fundmental order about the reprisal measures, dated the 28th of February 1943 General Bader ordered the establishment of reprisal prisoner camps in a large number of district towns of the country.
Q. And under whose supervision were these reprisal prisoner camps?
A. As far as I know, they were partly under the supervision of the district commander and partly under the police district officer.
Q. And what did you, as Chief of General Staff, have to do with these reprisal prisoner camps?
A. Nothing at all.
Q. You said nothing at all?
A. Yes, nothing at all.
Q. I am now coming to another point of the Indictment. This is Figure 15-D ("D" for "dog"). Herr von Geitner, with this point you are charged with having passed on the order for the deportation to Germany of the male population of whole villages in Serbia for forced labor. This was supposed to have been on the 10th of August 1943. With references to this part of the Indictment under Figure 15-D, there is a document on Pabe 94 of the German Document Book XII, Page 112 in the English Document Book. The Document is NOKW-155, Exhibit No. 306. Would you please look at this document, Herr von Geitner, and describe to the Tribunal whether it has any foundation with regard to you?
A. This is an order of General Loehr, and under Figure IV of this document it states: "In the territories especially valuable for the conduct of battle the male inhabitants between 15 and 60 are to be evacuated. They are to be collected together in guarded labor camps and all insofar as they are capable of working to be transported into the Reich. " In Serbia the evacuation of whole combat areas was certainly not carried out during my time, but I think also the order referred more to coastal areas where at that time one was afraid of landings.
Q. Witness, you had nothing to do with the issuance or the carrying out of this order?
A. I don't know whether this order was passed on by the Commanding General and Commander in Serbia.
Q. And then what about the question of labor at that time, was there a shortage of labor or was there surplus in Serbia?
A. Well, people came sometimes from Germany and they came to me and they started to talk about labor for Germany. But I was not competent for that. I sent them, while Bader was there, to the General Plenipotentiary for Economy, and while Felber was there I sent to the Administrative Staff. In Serbia itself, however, there was a shortage of labor. The number of people who went voluntarily to Germany was supposed to have been , -- I don't know, because I didn't have anything to do with it, -- very low, but forced deportation of labor was only carried out through the High SS and Police Leader , and afterwards, after the order that all prisoners from the band fighting were to be sent to Germany, this also carried out through the troops.
Q. Witness, then who was actually responsible for the transport of captured members of bands to Germany for labor?
This was actually an affair of the Higher SS and Police Leader.
DR. SAUTER: In this connection Your Honor I would like to refer you to a document in Document Book IX, page 67, NOKW 1722, Exhibit 228, English page 51, and also to another document which also deals with this question in Document Book 7, page 72, German, English page 86, NOKW 930, Exhibit 188.
These two documents deal on the same lines with the last statement of the defendant von Geitner.
Q. Witness, I now come to another point; did your headquarters staff, which was under your direction, over have anything to do with the organization of labor, - such cases are said to have occurred?
A. This was probably in autumn 1943 when a teletype came from the Wehrmacht Operational Staff, the Quartermaster Department, with regard to the recruitment of labor for needs of Army supply, air force, and I think the General of Transportation.
Q. Just a moment, witness, these are Documents in Document Book 17 , which is page 54 of the German and page 72 of the English; NOKW 164, exhibit 416, and the same Document in book 17 on page 78 of the German and page 108 of the Engeish, which is Document 171, Exhibit 420. Do you want to say anything else about these two documents, witness?
A. Yes. This labor was supposed to be used in the Southeastern area. It was certainly meant to release German personnel, in the supply offices and on the railroad and these people were supposed to be regularly supplied. They were paid with money and food and their families were locked after. The German Plenipotentiary in Croatia and the Military Commander in Greece were consulted: "A forced recruitment of labor did not enter the question at all," On the whole, Italian prisoners were used in place of this labor.
Q. Witness, did you have anything at all to do with the so-called Serbian reconstruction service, what sort of an installation was this?
A. One day the Prime Minister Nedic came to General Bauer and told him that he had installed a Serbian Labor service and General Bader was rather surprised. Nedic said he wanted to get the young men who were standing around the streets smoking cigarettes busy and to put them to work in the interests of his country.
A competent center for dealing with this was the administrative staff, and it was reported to higher headquarters , and the Reich Labor Minister was against it at first, but finally the matter was approved. The Serbian State Secretary was put in charge of the whole thing and as his advisor there came a senior labor leader from Germany, who was to tell him about German experiences in this matter, and was attached to our administrative staff, not subordinate to it. This man came quite often to the Commander and to me in order to report how the matter was going on. General Nedic was merely recruiting, in the interest of the Serbian Economy, or Serbian transport, and for regulation work in agriculture. The Higher SS and Police Leader asked very frequently for the dissolution, because in this he saw the origin or development of same military organization or another.
Q. Herr von Geitner, up to now I have discussed with you those documents with which you are charged in the written indictment; now, during the course of oral proceedings you have also been brought in contact with other numerous documents, and here I would lake to discuss the most important of these additional documents with you so that you can say something about them. First of all, I take from Document Book 10 page 11 English and page 11 of the German, two documents bearing the number NOKW 973, Exhibit 246. These documents contain two reprisal orders, from the 15 and 16 November 1943. Do these orders bear your signature?
A. Yes.
Q. And according to your opinion are you responsible for these orders?
A. No.
Q. And how does it happen then that these reprisal orders are signed by you, even though you have told us that the issuance of reprisal orders was on principle an affair of the commander himself.
A. First of all I would like to mention that on the first order the date 5th Nov. is, -- this should really be the 5th of January. General Bader was on leave. His deputy at the beginning of January 1943 was the Commander of 704th Division, Major General Juppe.
Q. Perhaps you would spell the name?
A. J-u-p-p-e. Major General Juppe took up an office Pocarevac and retained it there. Then there came two reprisal applications from the administrative sub-area headquarters 809. General Juppe was orally told about these reprisal applications. I don't know who made it. Whether I did it I really don't know any more. He decided that these reprisal applications were to be approved and ordered along these lines. Since he was about 40 to 50 kilometers away I, on his behalf, singed the orders, and also in the orders I stated that Major General Juppe had approved the applications of the sub-area administrative headquarters.
Q. According to your opinion, in this case , did you take over special criminal liability by signing this order on behalf of the deputy commander?
A. No.
Q. Not according to your personal opinion?
A. No.
Q. And are these all the same orders about which General Felber as a witness in his examination on 13 August 1947 has already spoken?
A. Yes.
DR. SAUTER: With regard to this point, Your Honor, I will now read from Geitner Exhibit 6, Document Book I, for Geitner , from Document 8, page 15 and onwards. Figure 3 is on page 19 of the English, page 17 of the German. This is an affidavit of former Chief of General Staff, Franz Halder, dated July 25, 1947, and duly sworn to and certified. In figure 3, General Halder states.
with regard to the two reprisal orders which are being dealt with here:
"3. The order of the Commanding General and Commander in Serbia, section I a. No. 19/43 of 5 November 1943 does according to German understanding not represent a command of the Chief of Staff, but the office routine announcement of a decision made by the Deputy of the Commanding General. To do that the Chief of Staff not only had a right, but it was his duty, whenever the urgency of the matter forbade the awaiting of a handwritten signature by the Deputy of the Commanding General. According to the opinion prevalent within the German Army it is the responsibility of the chief of staff to draw up such a command so that it clearly expresses the decision made by the commander or, if such a decision could not be obtained in a particular case, it atleast conforms with the basic conception of the commander." I don't need to read any more, but I would just like to state here. Your Honor, that in this affidavit of General Helder the date of the order is stated as being the 5th of November 1943, just as it is stated in the copy of the document. It should really be the 5 January. The mistake in the copy was probably taken from General Halder's affidavit, because I sent him this copy at the time, so that he could make his comments about it. This fact can be seen from the number which General Halder gives, which is No. 1-A, 19/43.
THE PRESIDENT: Is there to be some stipulation as to this change --
MR. RAPP: Your Honor, if you please, the assistant Secretary General has the original of this particular document and if I could look through it sometime during the day; if it turns out as Dr. Sauter claims then there is no reason for us not to acceed this point.
THE PRESIDENT: Very well. We will call it to your attention later on in the day.
Q. Witness, have you still got this document there?
A. Yes.
Q. Will you please turn up the page because I want to ask you a few questions about these orders. Document Book 10, page 11, of the English and German; have you got it?
A.Yes.
Q. Please tell us in which form was it expressed in this order, that it is an order by your commander, and not an order of the Chief of Staff General Geitner, how was this visible to the German officer, in the document itself, I mean?
A. In the one document, it states: "The deputy commanding General Major General Juppe, has approved the application of District Headquarters Leskovac of 29 December 1942 to shoot to death 35 hostages." Then the second document states, "The Deputy Commanding General, Major General Juppe, has ordered..."
Q. Witness, keep the document for a minute. Can the fact that this is an order of the Commander and not an order by the chief of staff Geitner; also be seen from the heading of the letter and from the signature?
MR. RAPP: Your Honor, I object to this line of questions. I think Dr. Sauter should ask the witness a question and not suggest the answers to him.
THE PRESIDENT: I think Dr. Sauter you should watch and avoid asking leading questions. In this particular case, it will be overruled, BY DR. SAUTER:
Q. Witness, I first of all ask you quite generally whether from the letter it could be seen and I mean the contents of the letter, look at the external form of the letter and tell us how it can be seen from this whether it is an order of the commander or whether it is an order of the chief of the general staff?
A. At the top of the letter it states, "Commanding General and 6 Commander in Serbia," and it is signed for the commanding general and commander in Serbia, Chief of General Staff. These kind of orders which were made in this way were never orders by the chief of staff, but they were orders for which the commanding general bore the responsibility.
Q. Witness, then according to the usual rules in the German Army how would the heading of the letter have been and how would the signature have been if this had been a personal order by the chief of staff Geitner first of all the heading?
A. If it had been a personal order by the chief of staff, then at the top of the letter it would have said, "Commanding General and Commander Serbia, The Chief of the General Staff and then the signature would simply have read Geitner without the addition of for the commanding general/"
Q. Witness and now I come to another document which concerns the Mladenovac affair. That is the case in which a Communist woman in Serbia shot and killed two German officers. This is a document book 9, document book 9, German page 124, English page 117. It is NOKW 969, exhibit 237. Have you got document book 9, Herr von Geitner?
A. Yes.
Q. Then please turn to page 124, NOKW 969, page 117 of the English, is that the right page?
A. Yes.
Q. First of all tell the Tribunal please what the affair was. about at that time?
A. From a report of the 704th Division, it became clear, I don't know to whom the report was sent, whether it went to the D-C or 1-A, at any rate I learned from this report that on the afternoon of 29 December 1942 in Mladenovac an attack was made on the staff of the batallion stationed there, that is the 724th regiment. The battalion commander was with his adjutant and his doctor on their way home. Suddenly shots rang out from the immediate neighborhood and left and right from the officers two officers fell down. A woman ran out, she was the one who had made the attack. She was followed among others by a former Cetnik leader, but she fired at the persuers and killed the Cetnik leader. Finally she threw herself down somewhere and shot herself to death.
Q. Witness, who was the commander at that time?
A. At this time the commander was Brig. Gen. or Major General Diepold
Q. And then what was reported to the deputy commander about this incident and then what did ho order?
A. In the meantime I was told that documents were found on the woman and among them was a letter stated, "I only wanted to snow you to prove to you that I am not a coward. I have fulfilled my commission." I then asked that this material should be submitted.
Q. Just a moment, what you have just told us previously, that was the contents of a letter?
A. Yes.
Q. And now you are continuing with what you said?
A. Yes, I asked for the submission of the material and that was brought in from Mladenovac with the translation or it was translated by us, I don't know. Then it could be clearly seen from this that the woman was the tool of the Communists in Mladenovac in this affair. In the meantime the application of the 704th Division had come in with regard to the shooting of fifty Communists from Mladenovac. This fact was brought to the knowledge of Major General Diepold. I don't know where he had his staff headquarters but I think it was in Syrmia, yes possibly I think in Sremska Mitrovica.
Q. What sort of a district is this?
A. It is just north of the Save river, the district north of Belgrade, west of the Danube and north of the Save. I think his staff headquarters was there but I don't know.
Q. Witness, can you please tell us why in this case any kind of retaliation order was issued at all by the deputy commander, although the culprit was known.
A. The commander was told about the matter and was told about everything that happened, including the contents of this letter. Thereupon Major General Diepold decided that the proposal of the 704th Division should be approved.
Q. Witness, can you please tell me the reason why Major General Diepold asked as deputy commander ordered the shooting of other people. Just a moment, I remember that formerly a reprisao measure did not come into the question if the culprit had been determined and in this case the culprit was known.
A. It was quite clear from the letter that this woman had been instigated to do it and had acted under a certain pressure.
Q. Witness, what did you have to do with this affair?
A. It is a matter of course that the chief of staff hears about such occurrences which take place in the area of the deputy commander and reports about it.
Q. And thereupon the commander issued the reprisal order?
A. Yes, thereupon the commander issued the order. The fact that the gave the order can be seen from the war diary.
Q. From the war diary; which war diary?
A. From the war diary of the commanding general, and commander, the entry of 24 or 25 December.
Q. The 24th, 25 and 26th of December. Witness, the reprisal order, which is to be found in the war diary is also signed by you. The heading in the letter of 25 December, 1942 states again and I quote: "Commanding General and Commander in Serbia, Department 1-A, No. 650/42." That is the heading of the document and the signature is: "For the Commanding General and Commander in Serbia, the Chief of the General Staff von Geltner." That is the literally quoted signature. How did it happen that you yourself signed this reprisal order?
A. The deputy commander gave the order for the execution of the application of the 704th Division and since he was not present he ordered that the order was to be issued by me.
Q. Herr von Geitner in document 969, NOKW exhibit237, document book 10, page 130 of the German and page 117 of the English. This Document contains and extract from the diary of the 704th Infantry Division, an extract of 25 December 1942 that was the day after the attack. The attack itself took place on Christmas Eve and according to this document, the doctor who was shot at that time, Dr. Engelhard died and the 704th Infantry Division therefore applied for the shooting of 25 additional hostages from the district of Mladenovac. In this application of the division there is an audition, which I would like to read to you, the addition is that "The execution will be carried out by the SD in Belgrade."
What do you know about that, about the application and about the addition?
A. The application again, came to Major General Diepold and was approved by him with the addition that the order was to be issued by the office. Why this execution was to be carried out by the SD in Belgrade and not in Mladenovac, I can only explain by the fact that in Mladenovac there were no longer any Communist reprisal prisoners, but there were possibly some in Belgrade. Therefore that was why the execution was ordered to take place in Belgrade.
Q. And why at that time did the deputy commander order the shooting of an additional 25 hostages in Belgrade; what happened in the meantime to cause him to take this step?
A. According to the provisions fixed by General Bader for one severely wounded German soldier, 25 Serbs were to be shot but for one killed German soldier, 50 and since for the two officers and one Cetnick leader, altogether fifty were shot. Diepold ordered that now for the shooting to death of the doctor, who died a few hours after the attack, a further 25 reprisal prisoners were to be shot.
Q. Witness, the second officer who was shot by the woman was a Lt. Koenig; can you tell us what happened with regard to him relative to his recovery.
A. According to the war diary of the 104th Rifle Division, which had arisen from the 704th Rifle Division, this Lt. Koenig in June or May, I think in May of 1943 died of his wounds in Vienna. If I remember correctly he had a shot in the spine. The 104th Rifle Division thereupon again asked for the shooting of 25 reprisal prisoners because of the fact that now this officer was also dead.
As far as I know this application was not approved. I can say it was not approved, but I, myself, on the 1st of June 1943 was not in Belgrade but I certainly cannot imagine that General Bader would subsequently approve of that action.
Q. These facts can also be seen from a document, which I would like to mention in this connection. This is in document book 12, page 3 of the English. Page 7 of the German. This is NOKW 1013, Exhibit No. 286. This is an extract from the diary of the 104th Rifle Division which arose from the 704th Riffle Division.
Witness, I would now like to show you another document with which you are also charged by the prosecution. Document book 9, page 16 in the German and page 12 in the English document book 9, Document 1335, exhibit 218; have you got this document?
A. Yes.
Q. What can you say about this document, only as far as you have not already said anything about it?
A. An application from Croatia with regard to reprisal measures because of a murdered Volksdeutscher and it was answered to the effect by the 1-A that this could not take place without discussions with the Croatia authorities. The competent person was the police president in Ruma. I did not remember this matter at all, probably it can be traced back to a comment of my commander.
THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Sauter, we will take our morning recess at this time.
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal is now in recess until 1115.
(A recess was taken.)