Q.This entry from the War Diary to which the defendant has just referred was dated the 12th of August 1943, and the Tribunal will find it in Document Book Geitner 4, Document 96, page 32. I must correct myself, it is not to be found under the 12th of August, but under the 14th August.
A. And under the 12th.
Q. Under the 12th, witness, there is the first mention of it. It states here, a Major Eckers and the District Commander of Uzice report about the attack of the bandits on the SFK volunteers in Arillie. The Commander of Bulgarian Infantry Regiment 61 will bring the matter in order with his Regiment. That is under the 12th of August.
MR. RAPP: Your Honor, may I inquire if defense counsel intends at a later time to submit these documents and read them into the record, or whether or not the quotation allegedly to be found in these documents as given to us by the witness are to be admitted in evidence in lieu of the document.
DR. SAUTER: Your Honor, I took the liberty of reading these extracts from the War Diary in order to recall these matters to the memory of the defendant, who knows them. At the same time I wanted to tell the Tribunal what the War Diary says about the matter concerned. I think at any rate this is expedient, because the War Diary is an objective piece of evidence, It is not only just prepared for the trial.
MR. RAPP: Dr. Sauter did not understand my question, or if he did and this is to be his answer I am not satisfied with this type of an answer.
JUDGE CARTER: Dr. Sauter, you expect to offer these exhibit's in your Document Book No. 4 into evidence, is that correct?
DR. SAUTER: Yes.
JUDGE CARTER: And at that time the Prosecution will have the opportunity to cross-examine on them.
DR. SAUTER: Yes, of course.
JUDGE CARTER: Is that a satisfactory answer?
MR. RAPP: Yes, your Honor.
JUDGE CARTER: You may proceed.
Q. Witness, do you remember that it was subsequently reported to you that the whole thing was an act of revenge by 500 bandits, as is stated here, against volunteers and that in the report which went to you it was expressly stated that the enemy had been wellarmed. Did you get this report?
A. At that time probably; I can't remember details any more.
Q. Witness, as a precaution I must ask you this: Was this action, the destruction of 65 houses, ordered by anybody? The Prosecution describes it as an act of reprisal.
A. It was ordered by nobody, If it states here that 500 bandits were concerned in the affair and that they were well-armed, then it is understandable that fighting took place. Nobody in the staff of the military commander ordered this and with regard to the expression, "act of revenge," this referred to the operation of the bandits against the volunteers.
Q. And when did you as Chief of Staff first gain knowledge of this whole matter?
A. I don't know any more. Judging from the diary it may well be that I knew about the fact that the bandits had made some kind of operation against Arillie, before the 12 August, because it states here: "It is reported about an attack on the SFK volunteers", and I do not assume that this was the first report. In any case at that time in this neighborhood planned mopping up operations took place against Draja Mihajlovic. This I know for certain, and there Mihajlovic seems to have attacked Arillie.
Q. In the indictment the date is given as August 15, 1943; you said previously that you knew about this before the 12 August 1943.
How can you explain the difference between these two dates?
A. On the 15 August, according to the War Diary the District Commander of Uzice reported that the enemy had been smashed in three groups near Arillie. Individual fighting took place, and on this occation I would like to say that the indictment states that. This is in the English text of the indictment. This concerns troops under the command, and as it states command and jurisdiction, - I don't know how the word "jurisdiction" has to be translated here. In the German edition of the indictment, as far as I know, it was translated "unter dem kommando und der Befelsgewalt". I translated "jurisdiction" as "Gerichtsbarkeit." The Bulgarians were subordinate in the same way as the police were now subordinate to the judicial authority of the commander. In my opinion in this case, however, where it was clearly a fighting operation, the commander had no cause to intervene. The fact that the Bulgarians were not very tame was known to the Commander, but he could not do without them, because he hadn't any German troops. Often enough General Bader complained to the Bulgarian commanding General of the Bulgarian Occupation Corps, General Nikoloff.
Q.- Witness, we will now come to the next point of the indictment, - in figure 12-B the indictment charges you with the fact that you also passed on the so-called Commissar Order of the 8th June 1941. This document NOKW-1076, Exhibit 14, Prosecution Document Book 1, page 34 of the German, page 49 of the English text. You were charged in this during the period of time after June 1941 without further details, is that correct?
A,- No. I think on the 1st July 1941, first of all, I was in the rear army area "Center". During the course of the summer I was commandeered to the Army Group Staff Center. During this period I heard about the Commissar Order. I neither passed at on nor did I urge the troops to carry it out, because according to my duties with the Army Group Center I was neither a commander with the Army Group Center, nor had I to draw up orders for the Troops, First of all I had the control of all the road communications in the rear of the front.
Q.- That isn't terribly interesting what your duties were, but we are interested to know whether you had anything at all to do with the Commissar Order?
A.- No.
Q.- Also not in the Balkans when you were there from July 1941?
A.- No.
Q.- And then you never pass it on to the troops?
A.- No.
Q.- Or reminded the troops about it?
A.- No.
Q.- And did you assume that the Commissar Order was valid for the Balkans and for the band warfare?
A.- No.
Q.- You did not assume that?
A.- No.
Q.- Herr von Geitner I would now like to show you another order, in which there is also mention of the Commissar Order, that is Document N0KW-1722, Exhibit 228, Document Book 9 page 67 of German, and page 51 of the English. Can you remember this order?
A.- This is the same order which we previously discussed.
Q.- An order on the 10th October 1942?
A.- Yes.
Q.- Signed by Bader?
A.- Yes.
Q.- This order it also deals on this point with a new summation by Bader of 25 March 1942, and this point does not state that commissars are to be shot, but it states that the men who are captured in combat armed are to be shot, but if I remember correctly -
Q.- I have got the order here?
A.- Officers, political commissars and couriers, are to be interrogated previously, and if possible in the presence of someone from the SD. The commissars were in this case only mentioned because General Bader wanted them to be interrogated, before they were shot. Only those men were to be shot who were found during the fighting with their weapons in their hands. A special treatment of the Commissars with reference to shooting was not planned in this order and was not intended.
Q.- The fact that people who were captured during the fighting with their weapons in their hands should be shot, did you think this was correct?
A.- According to the current orders given at that time this was correct.
Q.- The next figure of the indictment in which you are mentioned is Figure 12-H -- Commando Order. You are charged with having passed on the Commando order of 18 October 1942 to your troops. The document is contained in Document Book 9, page 41 of the German, English page 28.
This is Document 61, Exhibit 285. Is this charge against you with regard to the commando order correct?
A.- I couldn't remember this Commando Order at all. This order which gives a reason for the Commando Order didn't reach us at all, because it was only intended for the commanders in chief, as far as I know. As far the actual commando order coming to us at all, this seems to me to be shown in a document which was submitted to General Foertsch during cross-examination. This order, which I also didn't remember any more, and which had a supplement attached to it by the Army Group, ordered the distribution down to Battalions, return after completion. Therefore I must assume that this order reached the commanding general and Commander in Serbia and was probably passed on This passing on could not be avoided at all, because if I remember correctly this order contains very severe threats to those superiors who did not abide by it.
My commander therefore passed it on. The case about the supplement of the army group was not very clear to me and it actually did not have anything to do with the commando order at all.
Q. Witness in document 1132, exhibit 243 in document book 10, page 1 in the German and page 1 in the English, this is document No. 1132, document 1-c, and order of the commanding general, commander in Serbia, in which the commanding general Serbia gives an order of the chief of the general staff of army group E to the chief of the subordinate authorities about the drawing up of daily reports. In this order of the chief of the general staff, under figure 7, there is mention about the treatment of sabotage commandos. This order of the commanding general in Serbia is supposed to have been signed by you?
A. Also correct.
Q. Signed in such a way that at the end it reads: "for the commanding general and commander in Serbia, the chief of the general staff," and then comes your initials and underneath the name von Geitner written by typewriter. I would like to show you this document from document book 10, please look at it and tell us what you have to say about it?
A. This is the regular passing on of a order to the chiefs, concerning drawing up of the daily reports. In this order the passage was contained and it was simply the passing on of the order and that is how this order came about. It really does not concern the commando order itself, but it concerns reports which in every way concern commandos. The order meant here, as shown in another document had nothing to do with band warfare. As far as I remember it only the later order about the mission can be valid concerning band warfare. How the commanding general and commander acted in such cases can be seen from one case, I think it was in 1942, where British soldiers were captured in Alexinas and were then sent to Germany as prisoners of war.
Q. Witness, another document has been submitted NOKW 832; exhibit 284, it is contained in document book 11, page 59 in the German and page 76 in the English. It is a document dated 8 January 1943; do you have the document book 11, witness?
A. Yes.
Q. From this it can be seen that the order mentioned of the chief of the general staff and army group E dated 8 January 1943 was passed on to the chiefs of the subordinate corps; what can you say about this as regard to yourself?
A. That it is correct what I said.
Q. And during your time an the Serbian area, were so-called commandoes, that is sabotage groups, of the Allies found and how often?
A. I don't know know often, but the fact what it happened quite a number of times has been stated by the witness Wollny and the people later on made prisoners of war.
Q. Witness and then there is also mention of the commando order in a document submitted, document No. 155 in document book 12, exhibit No. 306, page 96 English and page 112 of the German. The last figure, this is an excerpt from an order of the commando in chief Southeast? In the last figure in this order General Loehr adds that the order of the Wehrmacht commander southeast is herewith rescinded? What do you have to say about this?
A. This additions about which I spoke about myself had almost no connection at all with the commando order.
Q. And therefore you maintain and you can swear that in your area the commando order was not carried out by you?
A. No.
Q. And previously you mentioned an order about military missions
A. Yes.
Q. Which appeared with the bands in the Southeast. This is an order of the chief of the O.K.W. of 30 July 1944 about the treatment of such military missions. It is document No. 537-PS, exhibit No. 488 in document book 21, German text page 65, English text page 75 and what have you to say today about this order?
A. Well, I cannot remember the order at all any longer. It is completely gone from my memory. I road the whole thing here again. From the proceeding orders it can be seen that military missions as they appeared among the bands in the southeast were not to be regarded as commandoes. It is stated in this order that they are not to be treated as commandoes. As far as I remember at that time Englishmen were not captured at all in the summer of 1944. If they had been taken prisoner, then, I think, they would have been treated in exactly the same way as those people captured in Alexinas.
Q. And that means?
A. This means that they would have become prisoners of war.
Q. Witness, please look at the last figure of this order and then please answer the question of whether this order was passed on by your commander or by you to the subordinate units.
A. I could not be passed on, at the most it could be announced orally.
Q. And how does the end of this order read?
A. "This order is not to be passed on by the general headquarters and staffs of equal rank to the other Wehrmacht units and after its announcement it has to be destroyed."
Q. And then what can you say from this concluding provision about the action on this in your office?
A. One had to take note of the order and bear it in mind for any occasion in which the commander spoke to the subordinate commanders and could tell them about this order and then to destroy it.
Q. And can you tell us, on the basis of this concluding provision, whether the order was passed on to the subordinate commanders of the troops?
A. I don't think so because at that time we had subordinate to us no large German units at all, as far as I remember.
At that time we were as poor as a church mouse and I cannot remember this matter at all.
PRESIDING JUDGE CARTER: The Tribunal will recess until tomorrow morning at 9:30 o'clock.
(The Tribunal recess until 0930 hours, 24 October 1947.)
Official Transcript of the American Military Tribunal in the matter of the United States of America, against Wilhelm List et al, defendants, sitting at Nurnberg, Germany, on 24, October 1947, 0930, Justice Wennerstrum presiding.
THE MARSHAL: Persons in the Courtroom will please find their seats.
The Honorable, the judges of Military Tribunal V. Military Tribunal V is now in session. God save the United States of America and this Honorable Tribunal.
There will be order in the Court.
THE PRESIDENT: Mr. Marshal, will you ascertain if the defendants are all present in the Court?
THE MARSHAL: May it please Your Honor, all the defendants are present in the Courtroom except the Defendant von Weichs, who is in the hospital, and the Defendant Felmy, who has been excused for interrogation.
THE PRESIDENT: You may proceed with your examination, Dr. Sauter.
DEFENDANT KURT von GEITNER - Resumed DIRECT EXAMINATION - (Continued) BY DR. SAUTER:
Q Witness, yesterday at the end of your examination you talked about an order concerning the treatment of military missions. This is one of those orders in which there is the note that it is to be destroyed as soon as it has been read. Now, it would be of interest to me if you would tell the Tribunal something about German practice concerning the way in which such an order is carried out, how it happened that it did not even come to the knowledge of the troops.
AAs far as I remember the contents of the order were to have been discussed with the Commanders and of subordinate units, but I don't remember this order any longer, now do I know what happened in accordance with this order with reference to the instruction or the informing of subordinate commanders. As far as I know, at that time, we had no German divisions -- only the 1st Bulgarian Occupation Corps. And I am very sorry that I can't remember what happened.
Q Witness, well, let's take the case in the area of the Serbian command. Supposing a military mission was captured and the troops reported this to their headquarters. Then, what steps would you have taken then?
A I?
Q Yes, you or your Commander.
A I wouldn't have taken any steps. This was a decision which would have been made by my Commander. I don't think that he would have followed the order. But he would certainly have ordered that these people would be taken into prisoner camps, precisely the same thing as happened to the prisoners at Alexinas.
Q Witness, I now come to another document with which you are charged, namely, the so-called Italian Order, dated the 11th of September 1943, Document Book XIII, Page 41 of the German text, and Page 55 of the English text, Document NOKW-910, Exhibit 327. I think you can be very brief about your opinion of this order. Did you have anything at all to do with this order?
A I don't know whether it reached us. We had no Italians. Italians came over the Montenegro Frontier amongst whom there were also Fascists, and these Italians were deported. As far as I can remember from the War Diaries the non-Fascists were deported at once, and the Fascists were used for labor allocation.
Q They were deported?
A Yes.
Q By deportation you mean as prisoners of war?
A Yes, as prisoners of war.
Q And now I come to a document which belongs to Count 14 of the Indictment, and you are charged with this count. This talks about the issue or the passing on of orders, about the imprisonment of Serbian inhabitants in concentration camps, forced labor of Serbian civilians.
and about deportation for slave labor. The period is given as September 1939 until 1945. Herr von Geitner, I ask you now were you in any way involed in the affair which has been mentioned in Serbia, and, if so, in which way and how far were you responsible for this?
MR. RAPP: Maybe Dr. Sauter can give us the reference in Document Book XIV to which he is referring.
DR. SAUTER: A document with reference to Herr von Geitner is not given to this point, as far as I remember. At any rate I didn't find it. It states only in the Indictment that the Defendants, that also includes Herr von Geitner, were said to have participated in the affair mentioned. But after studying the document books I couldn't find which document was referred to by the Prosecution with regard to Herr von Geitner. Therefore, that is the only point in which I cannot show the Defendant a certain document.
MR. RAPP: I would like to inquire whether I have been mistaken that Dr. Sauter referred in connection with this question to Document Book XIV initially, and if it has no bearing on this issue we should have it stricken out of the record. It only leads to confusion.
DR. SAUTER: No, that is a mistake by Mr. Rappa. The Indictment is currently numbered, and this point which I am dealing with at the moment is No. 14 in the Indictment. So that everyone can ascertain which point of the Indictment Herr von Geitner's answers refer to, when I ask the question, I mentioned No. 14. That is, this point in the Indictment.
BY DR. SAUTER:
Q Now, Herr von Geitner, I can't show you a certain document with regard to this point because I don't know which documents the Prosecution has in mind, but nevertheless, I would like to ask you to say something with regard to this charge. Did you become guilty in any way concerning this point?
A No, first of all, with regard to the question of the so called concentration camps.
Q Were there such concentration camps?
A Yes.
Q Please always make a pause, Herr von Geitner. What I told you yesterday also goes for today. After the question you must always wait a little. Please continue.
A Yes, mention is often made in the files about concentration camps, especially the concentration camp Semlin. The same camp as also quite often called a collection camp. It was not a concentration camp in the sense applied to concentration camps today. It was exclusively in charge of the Higher SS and Police Leader and served to accommodate prisoners from the band fighting.
Q Herr von Geitner, was this so-called concentration camp or collection camp of Semlin on Serbian soil?
A. No.
Q. But--
A. On Croatian soil.
Q. And who established this collection camp? Was it done by the Commander Serbia or by you personally, or by somebody else?
A. It was set up by the Higher SS and Police Leader.
Q. Witness , as Chief of the General Staff of the Commander Serbia did you have anything to do with this collection camp or with any other collection camps in Serbia during your period of service?
A. Officially, no.
Q. Did you have any kind of supervision over the camp?
A. No.
Q. And did you have the possibility of getting into the camp at all in order to find out yourself about the conditions there?
A. No, I didn't interfere with this matter because I know that the Higher SS and Police Leader wouldn't let strange persons into the camp, but I didn't have any control function at all.
Q. Do you know who was actually and finally responsible for this camp?
A. Only the Higher SS and Police Leader.
Q. And wasn't the Croatian Government also responsible for it?
A. The Croatian Government was supposed to supply the food for it and arrange for the transporting of people whom the Higher SS and Police Leader, not in accordance with orders, wanted for forced labor.
Q. You say, Witness, that you also not competent for this camp and were not responsible. But nevertheless, in spite of this, did you not take any trouble at all to take an interest in the conditions in this camp?
A. Yes, in this way: I was told--I don't know by whom--that the sanitary arrangements in this camp were not in order. This I brougnt to the attention of the Higher SS and Police Leader, and I called the adju tant of the leading medical officer to me.
I don't know what the adjutant was; he was some kind of a medical orderly. I don't know why the leading medical officer himself didn't come. He was probably away. And on behalf of my Commander I told him that they should do something about these conditions and bring the matter in order again in agreement with the Higher SS and Police Leader.
Q. Witness, who was your Commander at that time?
A. If I remember correctly at that time, when I received the first news, General Bader was on leave. And I reported it to Maj. Gen. Hinghofer, and later on, when Bader returned, I told him.
Q. And do you know, witness whether General Bader himself discussed the bad conditions in the Semlin camp with the Higher SS and Police Leader ?
A. Yes.
Q. What do you know about it?
A. I remember a very excited conversation in which General Bader talked about other things and also demanded that the Semlin camp be brought into order.
Q. Witness, what was the attitude of the Higher SS and Police Leader with regard to this demand made by General Bader; especially, was he in agreement with the fact that your doctor, that is the doctor of the Commander Serbia, should visit the camp?
A. I don't know details about it any longer, but in any case, first of all, he refused the chief medical officer entrance into the camp, and after the conversation with Bader he finally gave his consent.
Q. And then what did the doctor of the Commander Serbia report to you, and what happened then?
A. He reported to the Commander that by installing delousing unit etc. we would bring the camp into order again, and this did happen.
Q. Witness, do you know anything about the fact that in Serbia there were also reprisal prisoner camps set up by order of General Bader?
A. Yes, simultaneously with the new formulation or his fundmental order about the reprisal measures, dated the 28th of February 1943 General Bader ordered the establishment of reprisal prisoner camps in a large number of district towns of the country.
Q. And under whose supervision were these reprisal prisoner camps?
A. As far as I know, they were partly under the supervision of the district commander and partly under the police district officer.
Q. And what did you, as Chief of General Staff, have to do with these reprisal prisoner camps?
A. Nothing at all.
Q. You said nothing at all?
A. Yes, nothing at all.
Q. I am now coming to another point of the Indictment. This is Figure 15-D ("D" for "dog"). Herr von Geitner, with this point you are charged with having passed on the order for the deportation to Germany of the male population of whole villages in Serbia for forced labor. This was supposed to have been on the 10th of August 1943. With references to this part of the Indictment under Figure 15-D, there is a document on Pabe 94 of the German Document Book XII, Page 112 in the English Document Book. The Document is NOKW-155, Exhibit No. 306. Would you please look at this document, Herr von Geitner, and describe to the Tribunal whether it has any foundation with regard to you?
A. This is an order of General Loehr, and under Figure IV of this document it states: "In the territories especially valuable for the conduct of battle the male inhabitants between 15 and 60 are to be evacuated. They are to be collected together in guarded labor camps and all insofar as they are capable of working to be transported into the Reich. " In Serbia the evacuation of whole combat areas was certainly not carried out during my time, but I think also the order referred more to coastal areas where at that time one was afraid of landings.
Q. Witness, you had nothing to do with the issuance or the carrying out of this order?
A. I don't know whether this order was passed on by the Commanding General and Commander in Serbia.
Q. And then what about the question of labor at that time, was there a shortage of labor or was there surplus in Serbia?
A. Well, people came sometimes from Germany and they came to me and they started to talk about labor for Germany. But I was not competent for that. I sent them, while Bader was there, to the General Plenipotentiary for Economy, and while Felber was there I sent to the Administrative Staff. In Serbia itself, however, there was a shortage of labor. The number of people who went voluntarily to Germany was supposed to have been , -- I don't know, because I didn't have anything to do with it, -- very low, but forced deportation of labor was only carried out through the High SS and Police Leader , and afterwards, after the order that all prisoners from the band fighting were to be sent to Germany, this also carried out through the troops.
Q. Witness, then who was actually responsible for the transport of captured members of bands to Germany for labor?
This was actually an affair of the Higher SS and Police Leader.
DR. SAUTER: In this connection Your Honor I would like to refer you to a document in Document Book IX, page 67, NOKW 1722, Exhibit 228, English page 51, and also to another document which also deals with this question in Document Book 7, page 72, German, English page 86, NOKW 930, Exhibit 188.
These two documents deal on the same lines with the last statement of the defendant von Geitner.
Q. Witness, I now come to another point; did your headquarters staff, which was under your direction, over have anything to do with the organization of labor, - such cases are said to have occurred?
A. This was probably in autumn 1943 when a teletype came from the Wehrmacht Operational Staff, the Quartermaster Department, with regard to the recruitment of labor for needs of Army supply, air force, and I think the General of Transportation.
Q. Just a moment, witness, these are Documents in Document Book 17 , which is page 54 of the German and page 72 of the English; NOKW 164, exhibit 416, and the same Document in book 17 on page 78 of the German and page 108 of the Engeish, which is Document 171, Exhibit 420. Do you want to say anything else about these two documents, witness?
A. Yes. This labor was supposed to be used in the Southeastern area. It was certainly meant to release German personnel, in the supply offices and on the railroad and these people were supposed to be regularly supplied. They were paid with money and food and their families were locked after. The German Plenipotentiary in Croatia and the Military Commander in Greece were consulted: "A forced recruitment of labor did not enter the question at all," On the whole, Italian prisoners were used in place of this labor.
Q. Witness, did you have anything at all to do with the so-called Serbian reconstruction service, what sort of an installation was this?
A. One day the Prime Minister Nedic came to General Bauer and told him that he had installed a Serbian Labor service and General Bader was rather surprised. Nedic said he wanted to get the young men who were standing around the streets smoking cigarettes busy and to put them to work in the interests of his country.
A competent center for dealing with this was the administrative staff, and it was reported to higher headquarters , and the Reich Labor Minister was against it at first, but finally the matter was approved. The Serbian State Secretary was put in charge of the whole thing and as his advisor there came a senior labor leader from Germany, who was to tell him about German experiences in this matter, and was attached to our administrative staff, not subordinate to it. This man came quite often to the Commander and to me in order to report how the matter was going on. General Nedic was merely recruiting, in the interest of the Serbian Economy, or Serbian transport, and for regulation work in agriculture. The Higher SS and Police Leader asked very frequently for the dissolution, because in this he saw the origin or development of same military organization or another.
Q. Herr von Geitner, up to now I have discussed with you those documents with which you are charged in the written indictment; now, during the course of oral proceedings you have also been brought in contact with other numerous documents, and here I would lake to discuss the most important of these additional documents with you so that you can say something about them. First of all, I take from Document Book 10 page 11 English and page 11 of the German, two documents bearing the number NOKW 973, Exhibit 246. These documents contain two reprisal orders, from the 15 and 16 November 1943. Do these orders bear your signature?
A. Yes.
Q. And according to your opinion are you responsible for these orders?
A. No.
Q. And how does it happen then that these reprisal orders are signed by you, even though you have told us that the issuance of reprisal orders was on principle an affair of the commander himself.