Q. You have it with you now?
A. Yes, over in the lawyer's room.
Q. You were not with General Foertsch in 1941 so you would not know whether or not he was absent from headquarters on 16 September 1941?
A. No.
Q. And according to your testimony General Foertsch was not absent on the 19th of March, 1942?
A. On the 19th of March 1942?
Q. Yes, was General Foertsch present or absent on that date?
A. I was not there, I only came in September of 1942 as I have already stated.
Q. What was your rank when you were serving as orderly officer for General Foertsch?
A. Oberleutnant, first lieutenant.
Q. No further questions, Your Honor.
PRESIDING JUDGE BURKE: Any further questions on the part of defense counsel? If not, the witness will be excused.
(The witness is excused.)
You may proceed.
JUDGE CARTER: Just a moment, please. I wonder if you might have the last witness bring his diary into the Tribunal, please.
DR. RAUSCHENBACH: Yes, I can arrange that if it is deemed necessary. Is it to be submitted to the Tribunal?
JUDGE CARTER: That is right.
DR. RAUSCHENRACH: The witness will bring the book. I assume that it will not remain with the Secretary General as I would ask that the witness can receive it again afterward as he has personal notes in it.
JUDGE CARTER: Insofar as the Tribunal is concerned, there is no necessity for leaving it. We just want to examine it.
DR. RAUSCHENBACH: Apart from the examination of this diary, this temporarily concludes my submission of evidence for General Foertsch, but I would like to reserve the right that during the course of the proceedings if it should become necessary I can submit a supplementary volume of my document book.
I have a few documents, the certification of which are not quite in order, which I am going to submit at a later time.
PRESIDING JUDGE BURKE: We will reserve the ruling made by the Tribunal previously to cover that request and you may be accorded that privilege.
PRESIDING JUDGE BURKE: I assume that the witness will return soon with his publication. At what distance is the defense counsels' room? Will someone throw some light on that subject?
DR. SAUTER: About 200 meters, approximately 200 meters.
PRESIDING JUDGE BURKE: Thank you. Does the witness have the documents with him?
DR. RAUSCHENBACH: Yes, he has got the diaries with him.
PRESIDING JUDGE BURKE: Very well. The record will show that they are to be presented to the Tribunal.
JUDGE WENNERSTRUM: Witness, I apparently have before me some diary for 1943 or a portion of it and I note an entry for July 1, 1943 which is typewritten and inserted. Can you tell me the reason for this typewritten insertion?
A. I sometimes inserted typewritten things which I had noted down somewhere else.
JUDGE WENNERSTRUM: In your statements as to General Foertsch of 1943 you made some comments as to where he was. Will the messenger hand this to the witness and will you read or call to the attention of the interpreters -perhaps that would be better -- the entry that you made on April 22nd and 23rd concerning your presence or the presence of General Foertsch? April 22nd and 23rd, 1943 -now, what statement is there set out as to your presence or where you were or where General Foertsch was on those days?
A. Here -- shall I read it?
JUDGE WENNERSTRUM: If you will, please.
A. '22nd of April: his trip to Fraklion on Crete, there maneuvers of the 10th Fliegerkorps. Very friendly reception.
"23rd of April: Start for Rhodes. Inspection of German troop units. Breakfast with the Italian Governor there, Admiral Campioni. Food very good."
And then: "Inspection of palace in which C, showed us everything personally."
Now, the following are a description of this inspection -- I don't think you need that.
JUDGE WENNERSTRUM: No. Now, turn to June 17 and 18 and read what it says there as to where you were and what was done.
A. "17th and 18th: Flight with Chief and Major Schlottmann to Athens. In addition, Major von Koeckritz, the Ic, with the High Command of the 68th Army Corps. Inspection of the Akropolis" -- and then there again are notes about this.
JUDGE WENNERSTRUM: Of the inspection in Athens?
A. Yes.
JUDGE WENNERSTRUM: Continue a little farther.
A. "Afterwards by car via Mekara, Korinth, Mykene to Nauklion where the 1st Panzer Division is stationed," and then in between there are entries about this visit to the 1st Panzer Division.
JUDGE WENNERSTRUM: That's sufficient.
JUDGE CARTER: When did you make these entries in this diary? Did you make them each day?
A. No, sometimes I compiled the notes and didn't enter them daily.
JUDGE CARTER: You would enter two and three and four days at one time. Is that correct?
A. Sometimes even longer.
JUDGE WENNERSTRUM: I notice in some of these diaries that certain parts are underlined with a red pencil. What was the reason for that?
A. Well, I must have a look at the parts again. I can't remember it any more.
JUDGE WENNERSTRUM: I think in the one I handed to you there was a red pencil.
JUDGE CARTER: Farther over in the diary.
JUDGE WENNERSTRUM: If you will take this one you will find some red pencil marks.
A. Those are things which before I was called to Nurnberg I underlined because I assumed that they might probably be important.
JUDGE CARTER: They are not lines that you made at the time of your entries in the diary?
A. No.
JUDGE CARTER: You are certain, are you, that the dates and events therein stated are correct?
A. Yes.
MR. FENSTERMACHER: May I look at the diary very briefly, your Honors?
There is nothing, your Honors. I have no further questions.
PRESIDING JUDGE BURKE: You may be excused.
DR. RAUSCHENBACH: Your Honors, I have already stated that at the moment I am at the end of my presentation of evidence.
PRESIDING JUDGE BURKE: Dr. Sauter?
DR. SAUTER: Dr. Sauter for the defendant von Geitner. Your Honors, during the presentation of evidence for my client Geitner I will call two witnesses to the stand and would ask to be permitted to start the Geitner case in this way. The two witnesses have already been in Nuernberg for some days. They are both business people and both want to get away from Nuernberg as quickly as possible. These witnesses whom I intend to call to the witness stand, the first one is Gerhard Wollny, a radio operator from Stuttgart, and the other witness is a dentist, Dr. Heinrich Bub from Kirchendamitz, Oberfranken. The two witnesses were officers in Belgrade during the war.
PRESIDING JUDGE BURKE: Have you given the customary notice of the presentation of these witnesses, Dr. Sauter, to the prosecution?
DR. SAUTER: Yes, the prosecution knows.
PRESIDING JUDGE BURKE: If they are here and available they may be called without delay and you may develop the testimony that you will offer when they are on the stand. Mr. Rapp?
MR. RAPP: Your Honors please, simply for the record, we were informed approximately one half to one hour ago that these witnesses were to be called. It is customary that we are to be informed at least 24 hours. We have no objection, in order not to delay the progress of this trial, we will not "insist" on this 24-hour time, but for the record we would like to state this.
PRESIDING JUDGE BURKE: Is there any reason, Dr. Sauter, why a rule which is apparently recognized by both the prosecution and the defense should not have been recognized by you, particularly since you are anxious to complete the examination of the witnesses?
DR. SAUTER: These witnesses were announced to the prosecution and the Tribunal weeks ago. As a result the prosecution has known for weeks that these witnesses would be called by me. In addition, some affidavits by each witness have appeared in the document books which also have been in the possession of the prosecution for days. Therefore, it is nothing new to the prosecution.
MR. RAPP: Your Honors, the defense counsel is obviously referring to its application to have these witnesses appear in Nuernberg; but that he wanted to produce the witnesses this morning we were not notified until approximately one hour ago. The mere fact that these two witnesses have affidavits in the document book doesn't bear any relevancy to the point we are discussing at the present time.
PRESIDING JUDGE BURKE: Well, in view of the fact that you are willing to waive any technical rights, Dr. Sauter you may proceed. And it will not be necessary to review in advance the testimony of the witnesses but we will assume the testimony they give in the stand in the light it may throw on the subject.
DR. SAUTER: I would also like to point out, your Honors, that the matter is like this. We have assumed that the prosecution would take four days for General Foertsch's cross examination. We were told that and we made plans on this assumption. The fact that General Foertsch's cross examination would be cut so short, of course, not be envisaged by us.
PRESIDING JUDGE BURKE: Very well, Dr. Sauter, you may proceed and if your witnesses are here and available if you will call them, they will be sworn in due course.
DR. SAUTER: As the first witness, if it is agreeable to the Tribunal I call the radio operator, Gerhard Wollny.
PRESIDING JUDGE BURKE: Will the witness please raise his right hand and repeat the oath:
I swear by God, the Almighty and Omniscient, that I will speak the pure truth and that I will withhold and add nothing.
(The witness repeated the oath)
You may be seated.
GERHARD WOLLNY DIRECT EXAMINATION BY DR. SAUTER: (Counsel for defendant von Geitner):
Q Mr. Wollny, I think, first of all, you can take off your head phones. You can understand me without them.
A Yes.
Q Witness, please state your full name.
A My name is Gerhard Wollny.
Q Please spell your surname.
A W o l l n y.
Q When were you born Mr. Wollney.
A On the 24th of May, 1915 in Windhoeck, in Southwest Africa.
Q And where are you living at the moment?
A Stuttgart, Bad Cannstatt, Kissingstr. 53.
Q Were you a member of tho Party, the National Socialist Party?
A No, I was not a member of the Party.
Q Never?
A Never.
Q And did you belong to any organization of the Party -- that is, for instance, SA or SS?
A I did not belong to such organizations but nevertheless -- I don't know whether it is an organization -- I belonged to the Reich Colonial Association during tho period from 1940 to the middle of 1941.
Q And do you know whether this Colonial Association was founded during the Hitler time, the Hitler period?
AAs far as I know, this Colonial Association was already founded before the First World War.
Q Before the First World War.
A Yes, before the First World War.
Q And why did you join, exactly the Colonial Association?
A Through a man who was in that association I was told that the members of this association would have to be counted among the first ones who would be allowed to go back again to the colonies. The emigration to my former homeland had always been one of my main aims.
Q Witness, how did you come to meet the Defendant Von Geitner?
A In May, 1942 my regiment was in Athens ...
THE PRESIDENT: I think at this time we will take our morning recess, and you can conclude the statement later.
(A RECESS WAS TAKEN)
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal is again in session.
THE PRESIDENT: The Witness may proceed from the point where the Tribunal interrupted him to announce the recess.
BY DR. SAUTER:
Q. Witness, I asked you before the recess how it was that you met Herr von Geitner, and you told us that in 1942 you had been transferred to Serbia. Now, there is one question which I want to anticipate. When did you join the Army?
A. On the 1st of April 1933 I joined the Signal Corps IV in Potsdam.
Q. Were you a professional soldier, or were you in the reserves?
A. I was a professional soldier.
Q. And when war broke out you were still with the Army in 1939?
A. Quite.
Q. What was your rank at the time, and what was your position?
A. When war broke out I was an N.C.O. and a wireless operator at a wireless reception station.
Q. And to where were you transferred or promoted in the war?
A. In 1940 I became a Sergeant, a Feldwebel, and in the spring of 1941 I was transferred to the Front in order to become an officer with a unit serving at the Front. This unit was stationed in Athens, and there in 1942 I was promoted to Lieutenant.
Q. With what unit was that, Herr Wollny? Was it the Infantry, the Artillery, or what?
A. No, it was a Signal detachment. My exact designation was Commander of the Intercepting Units in the Southeast.
Q. And when did you go to Belgrade?
A. In May of 1942 a Signal platoon and I went to Belgrade.
Q. How long were you in charge of this platoon?
A. I stayed with that unit until December, 1943. Then I became chief of the Signal Reconnaissance Company 621. My platoon was assigned to that company. And in May, 1942 I was transferred to Finland.
Q. To Finland?
A. Yes, to Finland.
Q. Witness, did you not make a mistake there? You said just now in May, 1942 t at you had been transferred to Finland in 1942.
A. I'm sorry; I should have said in May, 1944.
Q. May, 1944? I see.
And where was that company stationed of which you were in charge?
A. Immediately in Belgrade.
Q. In Belgrade itself you mean?
A. Yes.
Q. And you yourself were in Belgrade, in other words, from May, 1942 until May, 1944?
A. Yes, that is correct.
Q. Then you said you were in charge of a Signal platoon and later on in charge of a reconnaissance company. Can you give the Tribunal a brief description of what that unit did under your command? What were its tasks?
A. The task was monitoring. That is to say, a constant listening in on wireless communications, their deciphering, and an evaluation of what we had intercepted, and a passing on of this information to the tactical staffs.
Q. If I have understood you correctly you and your company were in charge of the whole of the wireless communications of the partisan units. You monitored those did you?
A. Yes, it was my duty to watch wireless communications between the bands under Mihajlovic, as well as Tito's partisans.
Q. Did you yourself know all the languages required, or did you have people under you who spoke those languages?
A. No, I had about twenty interpreters.
Q. And how was it that in that position you yourself came into contact with the Defendant General von Geitner?
A. In May, 1942 I had to train my unit in Belgrade, and as I was entirely independent I had to contact another unit for economic reasons.
For that reason I reported to the Signal officer above me, who was under the Military Commander Serbia, who granted me all support and economic assistance. The senior Signal officer introduced me to the then Colonel von Geitner, who was Chief of Staff, and I reported to him. I had to report orally to him and explain why I was present in Belgrade and give an idea of my duties.
Q. Now, as for the results of your intercepting wireless communications, did you report currently to the agency of the Commander in Serbia?
A. Yes, I had a fixed distribution list beyond which I was not to go. This was an OKW agency, an Army group, a military commander, and later on also the Security Service in Belgrade.
Q. Now, you and your unit, that is to say, your Signal platoon, and later on the reconnaissance company, were you subordinate to the Commander in Chief Serbia?
A. No, I was entirely independent. Only from an economic point of view was I attached to the Commander in Chief.
Q. But if I understand you correctly you had to report to the Commander for Serbia?
A. Yes, quite.
Q. To whom did you report in fact, at the office of the Commander for Serbia?
A. To the Ic, the expert working on enemy matters.
Q. Ic? The expert working on enemy matters. Did you report the results of your monitoring also to the Chief of the General Staff, to the then Colonel von Geitner, in other words?
A The channels were as follows: The T-c would pass on my results to Col. von Geitner, then I myself frequently informed Col. von Geitner, whenever I met him about the latest news.
Q Did you see Herr von Geitner very frequently during your two years in the Balkans or was it only occasionally and briefly; what can you tell us about that?
A I talked to Col. von Geitner, as he was at the time, very frequently as we were living in the immediate neighborhood, in the same street, and from a service point of view we had the same contacts.
Q Now, during those talks with Herr von Geitner did you gain precise and detailed insight to the extent that you yourself could state an opinion about his character and his way to comply with his official duties?
A I was a Lieutenant and a 1st Lieutenant at that time, and I believe that despite the difference in rank I am entitled to such an opinion.
Q Did Herr von Geitner talk to you only about service matters exclusively or did he talk to you about other matters as well, not only service matters?
A The situation in the Balkans, as it was at the time, scarcely afforded the opportunity to discuss personal matters. The enormous number of daily occurrences and the enormous flock of daily news which I had to pass on the basis of radio messages that were intercepted, entailed that he and I actually only discussed Balkan matters very frequently.
Q Did you talk to the other officers of that agency also and frequently, and did you gather from them how the other officers judged Chief of Staff von Geitner?
A Yes, I went to see the military commander daily to report to him and to hear from him whether there were any special requirements. That was how I came into frequent contact with the other officers.
Q What was your impression, witness, from your own conversations with Herr von Geitner and also from your talks with the other officers as to the character of Herr von Geitner, particularly as regards to whether or not he observed his orders, whether he was ambitious, etc.; perhaps you can tell us something about that?
A General von Geitner was a wise and considerable officer. I considered him to be a guarantee for peace and order in Serbia. His aim was to pursue well considered principles of a constructive police of reconstruction. The special condition in the Balkans led to the fact that these really noble aims were frustrated by the lower principles of the others and as far as my knowledge of Herr von Geitner goes there was no ambitious thirst for power in him. This was not one of his features. There was the petty competition amongst the various higher agencies in Serbia to be considered and also the unstable public opinion in Serbia the flourishing black market and sinster rumors or slogans. Moreover there were these partisan methods and atrocities indulged in by the partisans whatever their origins were, their complete ruthlessness in the choice of their means to achieve temporary successes. The partisans had no heart for the sufferings of the population. All this prevented any positive reconstruction work in Serbia.
Q Witness, did you from your own observations gain the impression that Col. von Weichs, as he was at the time, strictly observed his orders, particularly those coming from his commanding officer, or was it your impression that the contrary was true?
A To overstep his jurisdiction seems to me out of the question so far as Herr von Geitner is concerned, because quite automatically he would thereby have come into some conflict with the competencies of other agencies. As far as other agencies were concerned, the Plenipotentiary General for Economic Affairs for instance would immediately have complained to Goering, or in the case of Gruppenfuehrer Meissner he would have complained to Himmler immediately.
And as to his staff, Herr von Geitner was far too good a soldier to trespass his authority as far as his commanding general was concerned.
Q Witness, from your conversations with the defendant von Geitner could you gain any insight as to what von Geitner's attitude towards the Serbia people was?
AAs far as that is concerned I can quote a conversation with Herr von Geitner about the Serbian people. General von Geitner had a very high opinion of the Serbs. He regarded them as the best human material in the Balkans, as a nation as human beings and as soldiers, as well. And after all we had a Bulgarian troop with us in our area, and the Prussians of the Balkans, as they were called quite generally. We know them sufficiently. General von Geitner said that despite their unfortunate history the Serbs were the outstanding nation of the Balkans on the basis of their mental qualifications and courage and their traditions. What I said was "Generally looking at the corruption, this system of denouncing and the brutalities towards the minorities, certainly you cannot really have a high opinion of these people." But General von Geitner said I should not generalize on the basis of certain aspects. The simple ordinary people and a number among the intelligensia, whose hears we were to win for us, those elements could be called decent, honest and straightforward and nearly idealistic.
Q Witness, did you know that in the Balkans, and particularly in Serbia, reprisal measures were taken, collective punishment and things like that; did you know that?
A Yes, indeed.
Q Were you yourself involved in any such measures?
A No, I never had any part in these things.
Q You did not. I see. Do you know whether Herr von Geitner took any part in these things?
A Herr von Geitner had no part in these things. In his staff, that is to say the staff of the Military Commander in Serbia, the Commanding General was the one who had to deal with the problem as the highest Judicial authority, the then experts connected with these things 1st Lt. Dr. Bode, I knew personally, and he had to report orally to the commanding general, and it was his duty to circumvent the the Chief of Staff, that is to say he had to report to the Commanding General directly cause the Chief of Staff was not connected in any way with the reprisal measures, this task was entirely up to the highest judicial authority.
I can remember that 1st. Lt. Bode told me on one occasion that the Commanding General claimed that it was he alone who would work on these problems.
Q So you know that from your conversations with the 1st Lieutenant who, if I have understood you correctly, was the export the referent, for these matters, is that correct?
A Yes, quite.
Q Do you know that from your conversations with Herr von Geitner as well?
A I recollect that on one occasion I went to see Col. von Geitner, as he was at the time, in his office, and that 1st Lieutenant Bode came in and submitted a number of orders for signature, and that he had another folder under his arm. Col. von Geitner asked him "what have you got there?" "Those, he said," are reprisal measures, Colonel, and I am about to see the Commanding General about that." And that was about as far as the matter went.
Q Did you in any event, witness, ever talk to the Commanding General about the problem, I mean the problem who was in the Staff of the Commanding General of Serbia, who was competent to work and decide on these measures?
A No, I didn't talk with the Commanding General about these things.
Q Did you discuss this question with Herr von Geitner at any time, the question I mean whether or not he was competent for any measures of retaliation?
A No, I did not talk to General von Geitner about the competency in the whole problem of retaliation.
Q Do you know whether it was a general opinion in the Staff that reprisal measures were up to the executive power, do you know that?
A Yes, it was always the task of the Commanding General to work alone on the problem of retaliation.
Q Witness, there are orders in existence which apart from the signature of the Commanding General, show the signature and initials of the defendant von Geitner, by that I mean merely his "G", which he used as his initial; these initials are contained also on orders concerning retaliation signed by the Commanding General, how do you explain that?
A Of course I didn't see the staff sufficiently often to be in a position to say 100 per cent what the reasons were for these initials, but I do know that all orders which were dealt with through the ordinary channels and office routine that all these things went through General von Geitner's office. It may well be that General von Geitner's initials were there, but I don't know enough about the details, as to whether he is alleged to have done this and certainly had to do it, or whether he did not have to do it.
Q As far as retaliation measures were concerned and as far as Herr von Geitner's personal attitude towards this problem is concerned, did you ever talk to him about that on more than one occasion?
A On one occasion I, the Col. von Geitner and the Commanding General discussed the retaliation problem in great detail, when on one day I had intercepted a radio message from Mikajlovic, to all, that means, to all wireless stations, where he said, "Sabotage acts and attacks on German troops and signal communications, are to be reduced to a minimum because otherwise the Serbian population will be subject to reprisal measures." General von Geitner then said "at least we have achieved one success. Maybe this will stop these people and this takes a load off my mine, and I hope that at last we can discontinue the retaliation measures. "The commanding General said something more or less in the same sense, that by this deciphered message I had relieved him of a nightmare.
Q When did you intercept that particular radio message?
A In the autumn of 1942.
Q The autumn of 1942, I see. Did Herr von Geitner also tell you why he was against retaliation measures, what the reason for this was?
A Collective punishment sometimes involves innocent people, and that I think was the main argument of Herr von Geitner, and the whole problem of retaliation was always a highly delicate matter which everyone wanted to avoid.
Q Did you, witness, from your conversations with Herr von Geitner or other officers on the staff, learn anything as to whether Herr von Geitner made efforts on one occasion to discontinue such retaliation measures altogether and substitute them by court proceedings; what could you tell us about that?
A I do not know that retaliation measures were to be substituted by Court proceedings, but I do know, *. however, and this must have happened roughly in 1942 or 1943, that General von Geitner initiated Court proceedings, or rather wanted to institute Court proceedings on the basis of intercepted wireless messages.
Q Against whom?
A He wanted to pin down the actual instigators or promoters, the leading men in Serbia, he wanted to put them before a court, because from the information gained from wireless information, their guilt had been clearly established, and in that connection the really guilty would have been hit. However, these proceedings did never take place, because I was very much opposed to it as the intelligence service of Serbia and Croatia which worked so perfectly would have noticed in a very short time that we intercepted Mihajlovic's wireless communications to about 100 per cent. and at that time deciphered it almost to 100 per cent, and thereupon automatically more codes and/or codes impossible to decipher would have been introduced. This would have made my whole work highly questionable, and the reason for this was the following measure; Mihajlovic then was busy enlarging his units which plans did then only exist on paper, whereas this was not the preparation for the rising of the people in the event of German Military collapse, and he had decided that the order for the uprising was to be passed around by wireless, and it was for that reason why I said "Colonel, in my opinion the knowledge which we might obtain about a possible rising of the people is far more important than to put a few individuals before a court." In this I was supported by the signal officer with the Military Commander, and by my highest superior agency with the OKW, and also by the 1-C of the Army Group, and it was for that reason that the problem was not carried out.