I would like to work with W. He is a very quiet and objectively minded person, on the other hand, I would not be able to leave in the near future. And it is easier for me to getaway from Belgrade, - if this is not yet out of the questions....... If it would not look like cowardice, I would like to get away from here. No more enjoyable legacies here. It has remained the old weather corner of 1918 without glory or laurels, only with difficulties. Well, never mind, I do my duty. Unto myself and Germany my conscience is clear. I have warned enough. This is a relief for me now.....
And the next document I shall offer is Exhibit 60. It is Document No. 68. Again it is a letter. This letter is dated the 27th of August 1942.
Q. Is that correct? Did you write it at the time?
A. Twenty-seventh of August 1942?
Q. I said 27th of August 1942.
A. I wrote the letter, and it is complete.
DR. RAUSCHENBACH: "Thus I call Ziehlberg today and asked him when I would be free from my unthankful tasl."
Q. Who was Ziehlberg?
A. Colonel von Ziehlberg was the personnel official in the Army Personnel Office.
DR. RAUSCHENBACH: I shall continue to read: "Answer" 'For the time being you are to stay, as a statue pole.' Of course, if all others are being removed."
The we come to Foertsch Document No. 69, which I offer as Exhibit 61, on Page 80 of the Document Book. Once again it is a letter.
Q Did you write it at the time, and is it complete in the Exhibit?
A I wrote the letter on 25th October 1943, and it is complete.
DR. RAUSCHENBACH: The excerpt reads as follows:
"Be happy, that you do not hear or see anything connected with the war. Thus I will no longer fit into this peaceful world with all my knowledge. I am trying so hard to look for the good, and I am still one of the hopeful ones, if there are such people. And in spite of it I cannot free myself from those things which I have to see, to hear and to know.
That is often depressing, and makes me lonesome with thoughts which I cannot get rid of."
The next document is Foertsch No. 71. I am not offering No. 70 at the present time, Document Foertsch No. 71 is on page 87, and it is Exhibit No. 71. This is the last Exhibit in Document Book III. It is an extract of the directions for fighting bands in the East of 11th of November 1942.
MR. FENSTERMACHER: If Your Honors please, I object to the admission of this document--you will note from the heading of it that it's labeled "Fighting Directives which were valid for Russia were not valid for the Southeast; and I, therefore, submit that this document is irrelevant and immaterial.
PRESIDING JUDGE CARTER: I think that statement applied only to the Commissar Order, as far as I can remember. I don't think they said that generally.
MR. FENSTERMACHER: It applies to at least one other order, Your Honor--one by Keitel, in which he says that draconic measures should be used.
PRESIDING JUDGE CARTER: There may be some orders to that effect, but I don't think it's a general rule. The objection will be overruled.
BY DR. RAUSCHENBACH:
Q Witness, let me ask you about that document first of all. Was this directive for anti-guerilla combat in the East made also valid in the Southeast?
A On direct examination I said already that these directives applied to the whole of the Wehrmacht, because of the order which is contained in this document, as well, and which was signed by order of Jodl. Moreover, I have also stated that General Loehr at the time issued a decree which once again stressed that the directives should apply to the Southeast, but that the special conditions in the Southeast had to he taken into consideration. As for your question, "What special conditions were meant thereby?", I believe I said at the time - I cannot remember the wording in detail, - but there were two essential points: 1) the completely different territorial conditions; 2) the fact that in the Southeast there was not a uniform front behind which guerilla activity went on, but rather that in that area you had to expect the appearance of bands everywhere and all over the place.
Q On the first page of this document, the letter by the OKW, is contained. It says, "Fighting Directives for Anti-Guerilla Combat in the East effective for the Wehrmacht as of 1 December 1942."
Witness, if this provision had not been contained in the document, namely that the fighting directive is effective for the Wehrmacht, would it then have applied to the Southeast without any further ado?
A Not without further ado, but if that supplement by Loehr which I just mentioned, would have been there, it would have applied as well.
Q Do you know whether the so-called commissar-Order, which originally applied only to Russia, was given such a supplement, thus making it effective for the entire Wehrmacht?
A No, that cannot be the case because in that case I, as Chief of Staff of the AOK-12 in the Southeast would have had to he informed.
Q These fighting directives for the anti-guerilla combat in the East based on experiences made in the East became effective for the whole of the Wehrmacht did they?
A That becomes clear also from the fact that the Southeast was known as a Wehrmacht theatre of war. That is to say, the Eastern theatre was under the direction of the OKH, that is the Supreme Commander of the Army. And only later on it came under Hitler's direction, whereas the West--Italy and the Southeast--were what was known as the Wehrmacht theatres of war where the OKH was not interpolated with the exception of supply problems, training questions, and Army matters proper, which wer par se independent of the actual theatre of war.
Q And the Eastern Front, the Russian Front, to which the Commissar Order was directed, was not a Wehrmacht theatre?
A It was not in the Wehrmacht Theatre.
Q I see.
I shall now read the extracts contained in the Document Book from these fighting directives. It reads as follows:
"E. Directives for the Treatment of Bandits and their Helpers.
83. The treatment of bandits and their voluntary helpers demands the utmost severity. Sentimental considerations in this decisive question are inexcusable. The very severity of the measures taken and the fear of the penalties to be expected must prevent the population from aiding or favoring the bands.
84. Captured Bandits, as far as, in exceptional cases, according to figure 11, they are not being enrolled in our own anti-guerrila combat, are to be hanged or shot, deserters to be treated like prisoners at the front, depending on the circumstances. As a rule, prisoners are to be shot on the spot following a short questioning. Only in exceptional cases individual prisoners and deserters, fit for that purpose, are to be handed over to the Secret Field Plice or Police for further interrogation and later treatment. Every unitleader has the responsibility to see that captured bandits and civilians who are being seized in action including women, are shot or, better, hanged.
Only in well-founded exceptional cases, he is authorized to depart from this principle, reporting the particular reason for his doing so.
85. Whoever supports the bands by affording them shelter or food, by concealing their known location or by any other measures, is liable to the death penalty. As far as the able-bodied male population is concerned who can prove that they had been forced by terrorism to aid the bands, their employment is forced labor is called for, and shipment to Germany for labor allocation is provided for.
When conducting interrogations, which is normally a matter of the Secret Field Police or Police, it must be taken into consideration, that Russians are prone to act as informers. All statements must therefore be carefully checked. Unjust punishments shatter the confidence of the population and produce new bands.
86. Collective measures will normally be required against villages in which bands have found assistance of any kind. According to the severity of the offense, these measures may consist of an increased taxation, seizure of part or the whole live stock, shipment of ablebodied men for labor allocation to Germany, and even of the extermination of the entire village. The order for taking collective measures may be given only by officers with the rank of (Hauptmann) Captain.
Such punitive measures generally are in order, if the inhabitants voluntarily supported the band. However, by our measures the civilian population should not be placed in the hopeless position, of being threatened with the ruthless extermination by both sides.
This would merely benefit the bands by enabling them to draw more support from the population. At any rate, when taking collective measures, the population must be enlightened as to why the measures were taken. This enlightenment cannot be taken too seriously.
III Harnessing of the Population into the Anti-Guerrilla Combat.
100. The population is to be included as far as possible in anti-guerilla combat.
Their collaboration may be either as members of the selfdefense units (regular police service) or as confidential agents.
IV Supervision of the Population.
104. The majors are to be put under the obligation to report immediately all persons strange to the place. Non-observance of this order is to be punished by the severest measures (death penalty). Suspected aliens are to be transferred to Germany for labor allocation.
105. From time to time, the population is to be screened in regard to suspected elements. In doing so localities, particularly those near railway lines, are to be thoroughly searched for hidden weapons, explosives etc. Operations of the armed forces should be utilized for this purpose. By the process of clever questioning of all the villagers and by comparing the contradictions, the bandits and banditshelpers must be pinned down and rendered harmless."
Q Witness, let me ask you something about this lest there be a misunderstanding. What about the term "pin down?" How is it used here? Does that mean that the bandits or those who help them are to be nailed against doors as the bandits did themselves?
A No, by that is simply meant that what they say in the examination must be correct. They must be pinned down to it.
Q Do you mean it only applies to the examination--to the questioning?
A Yes, what they actually did should be established quite clearly--even in the interrogation.
Q To continue, "It may be expedient to provisionally arrest all male inhabitants for this purpose and to watch them for some time in special camps, in order to find out by this method, through confidential agents, those who are siding with the bands. The release of the innocent persons will then contribute in increasing the confidence of the population in the justice of the German measures.
"106. Solitary deserted houses and sheds outside of villages, in which bands may find shelter, are to be burned down; pillboxes, dugouts, etc., are to be destroyed as far as possible."
Were the fighting directives for anti-guerilla warfare in the East issued as a printed pamphlet?
A During the examination, I have confirmed this, namely that it was a proper set of directives which becomes quite clear from the first pages. It says, "Appendix II to Service Men Ia." I cannot remember which one that was but I believe it was some directives for infantry fighting. Then it says "For restricted use" and what it says under the Supreme Commander of the Wehrmacht--it says "NFD." NFD was an abbreviation for a directive which was used only for official use, and was restricted.
Q And that was a binding set of directives, was it? And nobody under the OKW could deviate from it, is that right?
A Yes, it was a binding directive and there was a general order which preceded any other directive, I believe, namely that alterations and additions to the directives must not be made, and the directive was sent immediately from the OKH-as was usual with all the other directives-to the divisions according to a quite general distribution list, I assume, right down to the companies--certainly to the battalions but perhaps even to the companies.
Q In other words, the Commander-in-Chief Southeast was in no position to conceal the directive from the troops?
A No, because then he would have had to say "I forbid the application of the directive", which would have been quite impossible.
Q And the troops got the directive as it came immediately from the OKH without the Commander-in-Chief Southeast having to pass it on at all?
A These directives came in according to a quite general army distribution list and went to all existing divisions, usually in the same number as they were packed accordingly and reached the divisions not through the official channel OKW-OKH-Army Group army CorpsDivision, but just like a parcel, coming through the mail.
Q And did the directive apply until the end of the war in the Balkans?
A As far as I know, in the course of 1944, I believe in late summer, a new version was issued of the directives but I don't know that one because at that time I was no longer in the Southeast and was therefore not concerned with guerilla fighting in the Southeast. I only know this from hearsay.
Q This has brought me to the end of the presentation of documents from the third document book of the defense and at present I have no further question to put to the witness.
THE PRESIDENT: Just by way of correction, it was the Third Document Book, was it not?
DR. RAUSCHENBACH: Yes, the Third Document Book, I am so sorry. I have no further document book at present, but I should be grateful if later on in the trial I may submit a small appendix.
I have no further question to put to the witness on direct examination and he can be cross-examined.
PRESIDING JUDGE CARTER: Are there any questions by other defense counsel?
BY DR. LATERNSER:
Q May it please the Tribunal, I only have very few questions. General, did you take part in the Greek campaign?
A Yes.
Q In what capacity?
AAs the liaison officer of the OKH.
Q After the capitulation of the Epiros Army, did any Greek forces continue to fight?
A after the capitulation, no Greek forces continued to fight.
Q Who defended the Thermophyles?
A The British.
9 Who defended the Isthmus of Corinth?
A The British.
Q Who took part in the fighting on the Pelloponess?
A The British.
Q The reasons why Greek prisoners were released so quickly have frequently been discussed here. I would like to put one additional question, though. What was hoped from this quick release of Greek prisoners?
A Good cooperation and pleasant relations with the Greek population and in every sense of the word a benevolent attitude to be taken by us.
Q I see. General, let us turn briefly to Exhibit 27.
A I am afraid I haven't got it.
Q I shall give it to you presently. It is contained in Volume I on page 71 and in the English Document Book I on page 91.
This is an OKW order of 29 July.
PRESIDING JUDGE CARTER: Do you propose to inquire about many of these exhibits, Dr. Laternser?
DR. LATERNSER: No, I shall only ask about three exhibits.
BY DR. LATERNSER:
Q General, in what manner was this order Exhibit 27 passed on?
AAs to its technical side, it was a teletype letter and as to its contents, as I said before, consciously with the introductory remark; "OKW deems it requisite that death sentence for sabotage be carried out by hanging."
Q Why was that formulation chosen-- "OKW deems it requisite?"
AAs I stated before, in order to express tacit disagreement.
Q Was it known within your sphere that if that type of wording was chosen, that you wanted to disassociate yourself from it?
A That was quite generally understood. Everybody knew that.
Q On direct examination, you said that the way it was passed on was discussed with General Felmy. Did I understand you correctly there?
A What I said, I think, was that the wording was arrived at by agreement with the representative of Fieldmarshal List.
Q Did you also obtain the agreement of Fieldmarshal List on the way in which you passed the order on?
A Yes, because otherwise I would perhaps not have suggested this wording to the representative.
Q Why did you ask for Fieldmarshal List's agreement?
AAs far as I can remember, there was before this definite order, the stipulation contained therein had reached us more frequently from the OKW, probably over the telephone because I know that the question "f hanging frequently been discussed and that Fieldmarshal List opposed this manner of passing sentence, particularly.
Q Was this OKW order observed strictly in the later period of time?
AAs I remember it was not, just because of the wording.
Q General, in September 1941, you said you were on leave?
A Yes.
Q When you returned from your leave, did you discuss with Fieldmarshal List the fact how during your absence he was kept informed about current affairs?
A Whether I discussed it with him--yes, yes, I did discuss it with him or rather he talked with me about it because I know that when I returned I found out that there had been trouble, trouble that is with the Ia, and with the Quartermaster General, and I know also that it was my impression or that Fieldmarshal told me straight out that during that period of time he felt that he had not received sufficient support and insufficient information that that had been his feeling at least.
Q Was Fieldmarshal List, when you returned from your leave, a changed man in his attitude towards civilian population?
A No.
Q Now meanwhile, orders had been issued by Fieldmarshal List dated the 5th September, contained in Document Book II on page 21 and in the English version on page 27 of the English Document Book. This is Exhibit 42 which I would like to submit to you.
General, when did you read that document for the first time, as far as you can remember?
A Probably after I returned from leave. I cannot give you the date.
Q What is this document about?
A May I just read through it quickly? As I see it, these are directives for the suppression of the Serbian resistance movement. That is to say, essentially for the fighting.
Q Any do you call them directives?
A Because under 2, it gives the details as to how to fight, and there is, first of all, the sentence here: "account is to be taken of the following point of view". Otherwise, it would say there perhaps "I order this or that in this connection" or "This is ordered in this connection" or some such phrase.
Q General, the differences between orders and directives you have described to us on direct examination.
A Quite.
Q Now about this order, one more question. What was the actual significance of these directives contained in Exhibit 42? The actual significance. What was the effect these directives had in as far as you remember?
AAs I see it, these directives didn't have much effect in actual fact because, apart from basic facts as to how to conduct the fighting, which are being brought back to my memory here, any well trained commanding officer would know all about them. This has been over-shadowed later on by the OKW order which came later on, that is the OKW Order of 16 September.
Q What exhibit is the OKW order of 16 September?
A I am afraid I can't give you the number, Doctor, but it is the well known order about reprisal ratios-one to 50 or one to 100.
Q Let us now turn to the order of 10 October by General Boehme. This is Exhibit 88 contained on page 27 of the German Document Book II and on page 33 of the English Document Book. General, can you remember to have reported orally this order to Fieldmarshal List?
A I am afraid I cannot remember that today.
Q Would you please look at the distribution list?
A The order has reached the Armed Forces Commander Southeast for his information.
Q How long does an order which was sent to the Armed Forces commander Southeast for his information--how long would it take to reach the Armed Forces Commander Southeast from the Commanding General Serbia?
A That depends entirely on how it is being passed on. This is an order in writing. It cannot have been passed on by teletype letter or by wireless but simply by courier. It might have come by rail or by air or boat. At that time, courier communications by air, I believe, had been discontinued altogether because of weather conditions, that is to say, at least, the regular courier connectionsevery second day-and also particularly because aircraft had been taken away and were used in the East. I am inclined to assume that this came normally by rail or courier.
Q And how long do you think, roughly, it took if by that normal method by rail, the courier brought mail from the Commanding General of Serbia to the Armed Forces Commander Southeast?
A That is hard to say-but to figure it out, it was signed the 10th of October. It left Boehme's office, by the 11th. No daily courier connection existed. Therefore, if a courier left on the 11th, it left on the 11th, but if there was no courier perhaps it only left on the 13th or 14th.
Q And how long would the trip take under the conditions at the time from Belgrade to Athens?
AAt the least, two days and a half. At the very least, if all was well on the railroad, which was not usually the case. I know cases when people on leave or on official trips from Belgrade to Athens took a whole week.
Q General, did you and Fieldmarshal List discuss the extermination plan as alleged by the prosecution?
A That is quite impossible because that plan did not exist.
Q General, what were relations between Fieldmarshal List and Keitel, the Chief of OKW?
A One might describe them as extremely bad. I remember, for instance, discussions, frequent discussions where Fieldmarshal List would make derogatory remarks so that is not quite right because after all they were of the same rank-but at any rate he was indignant and he took a negative attitude.
Q What was Field Marshal List's attitude towards the party, the National Socialist Party?
A When I was Chief of Staff the problem did not play a part t all, because any contact with the party down there did not exist, but as far as Field Marshal List's fundamental attitude is concerned I know that he was anything but a friend or advocate of the Party, on the contrary.
Q What were Field Marshal List's relations to Hitler?
A I did not see any personal relations at any time, between Field Marshal List and Hitler, but it was known that Field Marshal List regarded Hitler as military amateur, and politically as to say the least a somewhat doubtful politician and a dictator.
Q Now, I have two questions, General, which I put to you on behalf of Field Marshal von Weichs, concerning the various and changeable tasks of the Supreme Commander Southeast, you have made a number of statements; there is only one question about that point. Were the tasks of the Commander in Chief Southeast changed when Field Marshal von Weichs was appointed Commander in Chief Southeast?
A Yes, I have touched on that also. With the new organization which started by the end of August 1943 when Field Marshal von Weichs was to take over the command, the separation was initiated, and the Commander in Chief Southeast was relieved of executive power and territorial authority.
Q Would it be possible to say that from then onwards the Commander in Chief Southeast was the Supreme strategic officer of the Balkans?
A Well, that was the whole point of this organizational measure, yes.
Q What was Field Marshal von Weichs' attitude towards reprisal measures?
A Speaking quite generally it was entirely calm, collected, and sensible. I think his attitude was the same which I have described as my own point of view, that it was not desirable but inevitable.
Q General, yon mentioned conversations and conferences about reprisal measures; were you present when Neubacher and Field Marshal von Weichs discussed the problem?
A I was present at the more important conversations in this respect.
Q Did the two agree?
A I may add it is not a conversation between Neubacher and Weichs; it was a discussion between Neubacher, Felber and other people concerned. It was held in a large circle.
Q During these conferences was there an agreement on the reprisal question?
A Yes, with one exception, which was Meissner, the SS and Police Leader in Belgrade.
Q What was the attitude taken by von Weichs at the conference; tell us that briefly?
A Well, he expressed it in the order.
Q What order do you mean?
A The order of December 22, 1943 about measures concerned with retaliation.
Q In what manner was the Commander in Chief informed about measures while you were in office?
A Do you mean the von Weichs period?
Q Yes.
A Oral reports about individual decisions or special areas were made as needed, either by me or by the experts working on the problems in my presence or perhaps in my absence, but any decisions reached by tie Commander in Chief I immediately learned. The daily reporting about daily events was done while I was there during the evenings, after the daily reports from the subordinate offices had come in, compiled into our own daily reports and put into our own words. We always had a large map of the whole area in front of us, and daily all the events of the day had been put down on a transparent page, so that on the basis of this map and of the transparent sheets the areas, either beginning from the South or the North - depending on their importance - were reported on daily.
Q Two final questions about the problem of Italy; General, did the Commander in Chief Southeast at the time, that is Field Marshal von Weichs, order that General Roncallia, should be shot?
A I talked about that on direct examination, and I said that I do not remember any order, and that now, knowing the documents, it seems to me highly unlikely that any such order was issued, because the notes about the alleged order and the report that it was intended, date from the same day and have the same wording, and therefore, they must have pursed each other. From a technical point of view, I think this unlikely.
Q In order to finish with that point, would you know if Field Marshal von Weichs had ordered the shooting?
A Well, this is a question concerned with my memory, and after four years I cannot guarantee anything there, but at the time, of course, I would have had to know it.
Q And that surely would have been such an unusually striking occurrence, as far as you were concerned, that you would remember it today?
A That would be assumed, but I cannot commit myself to anything here.
Q General, my final question about this problem; do you know of cases where Field Marshal von Weichs aggravated the treatment of the Italians?
A I can remember no such action.
DR. LATERNSER: Thank you very much. I have no further questions.
JUDGE CARTER: Are there any further questions for the defense?
DR. MENZEL (Menzel for Kuntze):
Q Witness, surely you still remember the order by the OKW of February, 1, 1942?
A You mean the teletype letter with that reproach - yes, quite, quite.
Q Can you remember whether General Kunze approved the contents of this teletype letter when, at the beginning of February it reached you?
A No, General Kuntze boiled with fury, if I may put it that way.
Q Do you mean that -
A Yes, I mean the teletype letter of February 1. I didn't quite understand your question. You say "approved", - do you mean whether he was in agreement? No, on the contrary.
Q Did he express his indignation in an unequivical manner?
A Certainly he did.
Q Do you know whether he did that only to you or whether he did so also towards the OKW?
A This teletype letter was one of the reasons for the intention which General Kurtze had, to go up and see the OKW in order to acquaint them with his attitude. If I remember the period of time correctly he was held up by the whole problem of the conference with the Italians in Abazzia, but it certainly was the originally intended course.
Q So when Kuntze went to see the OKW what was the success he had?
A No success at all. I may remind you of the extract from the letter in which it says that at that period of time.
Q You report therein about the way General Kuntze was impressed by his lack of success, could you repeat that briefly for us; whether he was depressed, for instance, when he came back or what impression he gave?
A Of course I cannot describe that in detail. Normally, one simply cursed until one had cursed enough, but that doesn't help, and one simply had to swallow hard and toe the line and use the next opportunity to do something else.
Q Very well, my next question, did you know how Hitler and the Chief of the OKW thought of General Kuntze and his work in the Southeast?
A Not directly, because at that time I talked neither with Hitler or Keitel, but only with Warlimont, who probably by his daily reports was informed of the attitude of the people you mention, and I can again remind you of the extract of one letter written the day after the talk with Warlimont in Bosnia, where I expressed my opinion that Kuntze was not popular, and that his release might be expected for the near future. I further remember that Warlimont dropped hints of this sort, otherwise I would not have written this in a letter.
Q Can you perhaps remember that in this connection General Kuntze was regarded as being too weak in the Southeast, or don't you remember that any more?
A Details of the conversation with Warlimont I do not remember, of course, but the visit of Warlimont, as I have expressed in the letter, was a matter of checking up on us. He had been sent down in order to see why these offices in the Southeast could not deal with this mess, as I have put it, at the time. The tendency was without a doubt the one which you assume.
DR. MENZE: That is all. Thank you very much.
DR. FRITSCH: (Fritsch for Rendulic):
Q General, only three brief questions. To the 2nd Armored Division, there belonged a Division of Cossacks, is that correct?
A Yes, as of autumn of 1943.
Q Did the 2nd Armored Division apply for a transfer of this Division of Cossacks?
A I don't understand, a transfer into the area or away from the area? Away from the area, you mean?
Q Yes.
A Yes, just as we did, and probably they were even more interested in it because the 2nd Army had to solve all these things with Glaese, which the Cossacks had done wrong.
Q Another question. General, you are an experienced man in personnel problems; if an offer for two years held the rank of Brigadier General, that is to say, as Brigadier General, he has to wait two years until he is appointed Major General, is that a long time to wait or not?
A Well, I must ask two counter questions in this connection; First, in what position was the General, was he commanding a division, in command at the front or at home?
Q He was at the front.
A Let me specify my question, General -
AAnd then it depends when it was, what period of time, what years.
Q Let me specify my question, Colonel General Rendulic, during the war, was a Brigadier General for two years before he was promoted to Major General. He was at the front, and before that time was serving in Russia.
MR. FENSTERMACHER: I object to the question. The defendant was not present where all of these problems were handled, and I don't think he is in a position to comment upon it.
DR. FRITSCH: I am afraid I didn't quite catch what the prosecution said.
(Remark repeated by interpreters.)
JUDGE CARTER: He may answer the question.