I had three sons, the oldest of whom is missing on the Eastern Front since January 1945.
Q. Will you give us a brief survey of your curriculum vitae until the completion of your school education?
A. First of all, I attended elementary school for three years and then I came to a Humanistic High school at first at Filene in the Province of Posen and later at Schneidemuehl where in 1913 I graduated. I was only a mediocre pupil. My interests were mainly concentrated on history and languages. I had little interest and understanding in mathematics and allied subjects.
Q. And what profession did you choose?
A. For a long time I wasn't sure whether I should the study of languages, religious subjects or become an officer. All three subjects interested me and mainly in the pedagogical line. The choice of profession was made simpler because my parents could not make it possible for me to attend a university. For that reason I became an officer and never in my life have I regretted that choice.
Q. How did your military career - your career as an officerdevelop until tho outbreak of the first World War?
A. Immediately after I had graduated I started as officer candidate in the Infantry Regiment 175 in Graudenz, West Prussia, I visited the officers training school in Potsdam where, shortly before the outbreak of the first World War, I passed the officer's examination. Thus, when the first World War broke out, I was made a lieutenant.
Q. Where were you employed during the first World War?
A. First of all, I participated in the liberation of East Prussia, amongst others, the Battle of Tannenburg, the Battle on the Masuric Lakes, and then the campaigns in Poland and, in December, 1941, I was wounded. After my recovery, I returned to my regiment and participated in the large German offensive - that was in the year 1915 into Russia. In Autumn, 1915, my unit was transferred to the West.
Q. And what campaigns did you participate in there?
A. There was, at first, only immobile warfare and then I participated in the beginning of the Battle of the Somme. All that as a company platoon leader of infantry. In 1916, I was transferred as company leader to a shock battalion and I remained there until the end of the war.
Q. What decorations did you receive during the first World War?
A. In 1914, the Iron Cross, 2nd Class. In 1916, the Iron Cross, 1st class, and, in 1918, the Knight's Cross of the House Order of the House of Hohenzollern and, besides these, tho wounded decoration.
Q. After the first World War, how were you employed them?
A. After the first World War, from the remnants of the shock battalion 7 which I have mentioned I formed a company of volunteers and this was firstly employed for the protection of the supreme army high command in Wilhelmshohe near Kassel and in Kolberg. Later, I was employed with that company for the combatting of internal unrest.
Q. Where was that?
A. Partly in Pomerania, in Hanover after the Kapp-Putsch, and in the Ruhr Area.
Q. What experiences did you make in these internal struggles?
A. These inner struggles at that time impressed me, as well as the whole company, strongly because they tore on the nerves and discipline of the troops and made enormous demands on the nerves and discipline. Three weeks of front action I would prefer to three days of civil war.
Q. After these inner struggles were concluded and after the republican government had been established, how were you employed later?
A. At the beginning of the year 1921, I was commanded to the socalled auxilliary leader training. That was the substitute for the former War Academy and it trained officers for the general staff.
Q. Did you report voluntarily for this position or were you commanded there officially?
A. There was no voluntary reporting at that time. That was customary before the first World War but after 1919 one was officially ordered.
Q. And where did that training take place?
A. The first two years of this training I spent with the Military District in Number 6 in Westphalia. Then, after one year of activity in the troop, I was commanded for one year to go to the Reich War Ministry as an ordance officer to the Chief of the Troop Office.
Q. What influence did this year of employment have on your further military development?
A. I don't think it had any official influence connected with my official position but I personally, during that year, got to know a great number of personalities which was to my advantage later on, and as a young man, I got to know the work of a central office and at that time I had the first contact with questions of politics because it was that winter of 1923/1924 when an emergency state was declared and was in the hands of the army leadership.
Q. How did it go on after that one year with the Chief of the Troop Office was concluded?
A. The last year of the training I spent again the Reich War Ministry.
Q. In what capacity?
A. That was still part of my training and subsequently I became press expert for the German press in the Reich War Ministry.
Q. To what extent were you qualified for this activity?
A. I don't know that. I myself didn't feel qualified to do it. I had requested to be employed in a purely military position and I was surprised when I received this assignment.
Q. What were your tasks as press expert.
A. I had to deal with the evaluation of the German daily press with regard to military and military political matters and I also had to deal with military periodicals.
Q. What was the direction and the tendency of the work? What were the principles?
A. During these years, 1925 to 1930, two major problems were concerned. Inner politically, it was the above Party nature of the Wehrmacht and, concerning foreign policy, it was a question of disarmament.
Q. How long did this activity of yours last?
A. Until, the 1st of April, 1930.
Q. And after that date?
A. Subsequently I became company commander in Goettingen.
Q. Was your interest now strictly limited to the purely military questions of the front?
A. No, by no means. My comparatively extensive spare time I spent to have contact with the professors and lecturers of the Goettingen University and I had contact especially with historians.
Amongst others, there was Professor Brandi, Professor Schramm, and, with other pedagogues, Professor Noel and, during that time, I personally was especially interested and occupied myself with the great soldiers of the time of the Wars of Liberation.
Q. Did you write anything as a result of these studies?
A. At that time, I wrote something about General von York, about General von Beuen and about General von Grohlmann.
Q. What moved you to do that?
A. In my activity as a press expert I had to write anyway and I found that I liked it and I was interested in these personalities and especially in their universal education and in their reactions to the ideas of their time - that is, after the French Revolution - and in their pedogogual and organizational capabilities and measures.
Q. After you had finished this tine as company commander, how and where were you further employed?
A. I was then to become an instructor in the War Academy but, unfortunately, I was again called to the Reich War Ministry to do approximately the same work which I had done before. I became press chief of the Reich War Ministry.
Q. In practice, did you do the same as you had done before?
A. The sphere of tasks was somewhat larger, naturally, and, in addition, there was the whole foreign press, all questions of propaganda, publication of books, and, in the course of time, furthermore, the questions of general importance which concerned the whole Webrmacht.
Q: What were the political motives and basic ideas of the then military leaders and your own ideas?
A: The political motives and ideas of the leaders of the Reichswehr had really remained the same, the aboveparty character of the Wehrmacht, but the question of disarmament had somewhat shifted to the question of the German equality in the sphere of armament which had not taken place on the part of the other powers.
Q: That will now lead us to the time of the taking over of power by the national socialists. What effects on the Wehrmacht did this assumption of power have and what effects did it have on your position?
A: In August, 1943, I entered that division and in this capacity I experienced the change which took place. Up until the death of the Reichspresident von Hindenburg, the influence of the nationalsocialist party which was now the government power was comparatively small. After that date, the influence on the Wehrmacht became considerably stronger.
Q: What influence did that have on your up-to-thattime above-party attitude?
A: I personally did not deviate from the idea of an above party attitude. I was personally at the beginning of the new regime confronted with a hostile attitude because I was as one called it at that time, a creature of Schleicher's -- that is no reflection on my character but it just meant that I was connected with Schleicher, General von Schleicher and for that reason I found enormous difficulties.
Q: Who was hostile to you?
A: The national socialists were hostile and then at that time I asked to be replaced and I asked to be employed at the front. However, I was not granted that. Concerning this subject, I had a very long discussion with General von Reichenau and on my request he then assured me that one would from now on protect me properly if I would remain in that position, and that happened.
Q: Did you yourself make an attempt to fight the change which was taking place, the national socialist assumption of power?
A: No, I personally had at that time about the following ideas. The whole manner and fashion of the national socialist party was disagreeable to me. I considered their aims exaggerated and their methods to assume power not very fair but I had to recognize that something was concerned here, something different from a normal change of governments and during the course of the year 1933 I fully realized that consequently one had to pursue one's own aims with completely different means as it had been possible up till then.
At that time, in that small circle where I could work I showed to my officers the following picture. I had told them that it was not important for the Wehrmacht to remain on the banks of this new river and to be spit in it, but to swim in this new stream with the aim to reach the top and to take over the leadership.
Q: And how did you practically show this opinion of yours and this attitude?
A: Firstly, I could do that in influencing the press which was connected with us and above all I waged a bitter but successful struggle against the so-called political military office of the NSDAP which today is completely unknown. This office was about the same in the military sphere as the foreign political office of Rosenberg was in the foreign political sphere. That is, it was the competition the party's rival towards the authorities of the state.
Q: What did you publish at that time?
A: I may perhaps say one additional sentence. This whole struggle at that time -- or should I say my whole work at that time was concentrated on the idea that through a more opposition one could not achieve anything, but only through, to use another picture, only through not using the break on this Statecoach but instead the front horse. Today, I know that was a fruitless undertaking but at that time I was no more clever than most people in Germany and abroad.
Q: I repeat my question then. What essays did you publish at that time?
A: During that time, I had to write a lot, most things in an official capacity. The most important of my writings at that time is a pamphlet with a title "The Officer of the German Wehrmacht." This is a booklet which I wrote on official commission but published under my name. In this booklet, a lot of national socialist ideology is represented but during that time next to purely military matters, I also wrote two smaller things which again annoyed the other side. One was an article with a title "Soldierism Minunderstood," which was directed against the militarism of Ley's.
Q: Just a minute. Who was Ley?
A: He was the Reich Organization Leader, Dr. Robert Ley. And I wrote a further work which was called "critical Thinking and Mental Versatility" and it was concentrated on the methods of the education of the Hitler Youth.
Q: You mean opposed to those methods?
A: The article which I mentioned first was very explicit. The second one said rather subtly everything that was necessary.
PRESIDING JUDGE BURKE: At this place, we will adjourn until tomorrow morning at nine-thirty.
(A recess was taken until 10 October 1947 at 0030 hrs.)
Official Transcript of the American Military Tribunal in the matter of the United States of America against Wilhelm List et al, defendants, sitting at Nurnberg, Germany, on 10 October 1947, 0930, Justice Wennerstrum presiding.
THE MARSHAL: Persons in the Courtroom will please find their seats.
The Honorable, the Judges of Military Tribunal V.
Military Tribunal V is now in session. God save the United States of America and this Honorable Tribunal.
There will be order in the Court.
THE PRESIDENT: Mr. Marshal, will you ascertain as to whether or not all defendants are present in the Courtroom?
THE MARSHAL: May it please Your Honor, all the defendants are present in the Courtroom, except the Defendant von Weichs who is still in the hospital.
THE PRESIDENT: You may proceed with the examination, Dr. Rauschenbach.
DEFENDANT HERMANN FOERTSCH- Resumed DIRECT EXAMINATION (Continued) BY DR. RAUSCHENBACH:
Q Yesterday we had reached your activity in the Reichswehr Ministry--your writing activities,--, and that led us up to approximately the fall of 1935. When did you conclude these activities, and for what reason?
A In October, 1935 I was transferred. I was told that the Navy leadership wanted to fill my position. The employment at the Front was in accordance with my own wishes, and the emigrant press asserted that the Party had moved me because I was a reactionary.
Q Were those voices from abroad correct?
A That is difficult to answer. It was the fate of many officers who were connected with political affairs that they were misunderstood and attacked from many sies, and one had to take that into account.
Q On the basis of your writing activity were you a member of the Reichs Literary Chamber or any similar National Socialist association?
A No, I believe in the Summer of 1937 I received a rather unpleasant letter. I believe it was from the Reich Literary Chamber, and they said the following: I was no member and, therefore, I was to join immediately. Otherwise, there would be a veto placed on all my writings. I answered by the same means and then I was no further bothered.
Q I will now come to your next military employment. Where were you commanded to?
A I became Battalion Commander in a small Pomeranian province town in Treptow on the Rega.
Q And for how long?
A Fortunately only for one year.
Q And what came then?
A Then I became an instructor in the War Academy.
Q And what were the subjects you taught?
A I taught tactical subjects. That is, I instructed about the leading of troops.
Q Did you have foreign students there too?
A Yes, at my time there were about 25 to 30 foreign officers present as students at that academy, of approximately 20 different nations And in my own lecture room, during the first year I had the then American Captain--now he is a General--General Hardness, as a student. In the second year I had two Argentine officers, and also at my time, there was the today very well-known American General, General Wedemeyer, as a student of that academy.
Q At that time did you write the book, "The Art of Warfare, Today and Tomorrow"?
A I worked on that book during those years that I spent at the War Academy, and it was published in the Spring of 1939.
Q Was the book also published abroad?
A Yes, it was first of all translated by the Yugoslav Officers' Library, and the latest translation was made during the war and it was made in the United States.
Q Is anything known to you how that book was evaluated abroad?
A I only know of two critics, if they can be called critics. One was an offer of a literary society of the United States which offered me honorable membership. And the second critic I remember is a quotation on the London radio at the beginning of the war, approximately at the conclusion of the Polish campaign, where my opinion concerning the length and strength of modern war was confronted with the then existing opinions on "Blitz" warfare.
Q What was your own attitude and opinion at the outbreak of the Second World War, concerning the length and the manner of the war?
A I was fully aware that a future war would be a very hard struggle, and I personally wished for everything else but a new war because I had participated in one war, lasting for four and a half years, and eventually lost, as a member of the Infantry. And I had sons who could be expected to have to go to the Front during the next war; and one war is enough for one lifetime.
Q During the Second World Mar where were you employed?
AAt the beginning of the Second World Mar I became Chief of Staff in Military District 8, in Breslau.
Q And later?
AAfter the Polish campaign I became Chief of the General Staff of the XXIInd Corps in the West.
Q And what followed that employment?
A In the fall of 1940 I became Commander of the General Staff Training School in Berlin.
Q How long did that assignment last?
A Until the middle of March, 1941.
Q And what assignment did you have after that?
A During the first days of April I was very suddenly called to General Holder and as liaison officer of the OkH I was sent to the XIIth Army, which, at that time, was stationed in Bulgaria.
Q Had you previously been in the Balkans or was that your first assignment to the Balkans?
A In the Summer of 1939 I had a command for twelve days to the Bulgarian War Academy.
Q Did this short assignment have any influence on the fact that later, in 1941, you became liaison officer to the XIIth Army?
A That had no connection whatsoever. The assignment to Bulgaria if I may out it that way, was really a dressed-up leave abroad, and the assignment as liaison officers of the XIIth Army was, I believe--I would say the assignment of the Summer of 1939 to Bulgaria was not known to General Halder at all, as far as I remember.
Q What were your tasks as liaison officer of the OKH to the XIIth Army?
A I was to inform General Halder of the course of the operations and especially I was to point out to him two important operational decisions in case they were to come about.
Q What was General Halder's position in the OKH?
A He was, at that time, Chief of the General Staff of the Army.
Q Were you also instructed politically?
A No, I was merely informed about the possible course of the military operations of the XIIth Army.
Q For how long were you liaison officer to the XIIth Army, and what came after that?
A I was liaison officer up till the 9th of May, and on that day when I requested to be called back because the task that had been put to me had been fulfilled, surprisingly I received the information that I was made Chief of General Staff of the XIIth Army.
Q And what was the date that you started that activity?
A That was on the 10th of May, 1941.
Q And when did you leave that position?
A My last duty as Chief of Staff I made on the 4th of March 1944.
Q And what were you commissioned with after that date?
A I had the commission to work on the marching of German troops into Hungary. Up till about the middle of April I worked as Chief of Staff with General Field Marshal von Weichs, who led the march of these troops and then subsequently I went on leave for four weeks to Bad Gastein, and on the first of June 1944 I was given the command over the XXIst Infantry Division in Kurland.
Court No. V, Case No. VII.
Q. And how long did you remain in that position?
A. I remained Divisional Commander until the end of August, 1944, and then I was made Commanding General of the Xth Corps in the same area.
Q. What position did you have when the war ended?
A. I remained Commanding General of the Xth Corps until the end of December, 1944, and then for about six weeks I had no assignment, and on the 19th of February I was commissioned with the Deputizing Command of the XIXth Army. On the 9th of March I was stationed with the 1st Army in the West, and as Commander in Chief of the 1st Army I concluded the war through the capitulation of Army Group G, for which I had been commissioned to negotiate with the Commander in Chief of the American Army Group. That was General Devers. And that was at the beginning of May, 1945 in Haar near Munich.
Q. We will now return to the beginning of your activity as Chief of Staff of the XIIth Army in the East. How was this Staff divided up?
A. The Staff was a normal staff of an Army Command. The most essential departments were the Operational Department, called I-A; the Department I-C, which was working on eneny positions; Department 2--2-A and 2-B, which worked on personnel matters concerning officers and men; Department 3, with which I had nothing to do as Chief, was the Legal Department and it dealt with all legal matters. Then there was the rather large Quartermaster General's Department, and that dealt with all questions of supply and besides with matters of food supplies, military pay, administration, etc.-- medical measures, veterinarian tasks; and further there was a General in charge of transportation matters; then there was the Army Signal leader, who dealt with technical matters. Then there was the General of the combat engineers, and then there was the General of the fortress engineers, and later there were liaison staffs with the Navy and the Air Force.
Those were the most essential departments.
Q. What then was your sphere of work as Chief of Staff?
A. The Chief of Staff had to be in charge of the whole staff. He was the first assistant advisor of the Commander in Chief, and as such he had to prepare all basic information for decisions and conclusions on the part of the Commander in Chief, and he was also responsible for the whole channel of reports and orders.
Q. Are the authorities of the Chief of Staff laid down in any regulation?
A. These authorities were laid down in the Manual for the General Staff Service. That is a secret Army regulation.
Q. To what extent did you, as Chief of Staff, have the authority to give orders?
A. As Chief of Staff I only had the authority to give orders concerning my own staff.
Q. Did this authority to give orders extend to all members of the Staff?
A. Not to those who ranked me. I was a Colonel at that time and, for instance, the General of the Pioneers was Brigadier General, and he was subordinated personally to the Commander in Chief because he outranked me.
Q. Did you have the authority to give orders to subordinate commanders and units?
A. No, I had, as Chief of General Staff, no authority to give orders to subordinate commanders and units.
Q. What consequence did this fact have for your responsibility?
A. My responsibility concerned merely my Command in Chief, regarding the work of my staff.
Q. Did you have an official supervision and did you have judicial authorities?
A. I had no judicial authorities, not even over my own staff. Of course, I had the official supervision of my own staff, and I had the same disciplinary authorities as a Divisional Commander.
Q. For instance, could you punish members of your staff?
A. Yes, inasmuch as they didn't outrank me.
Q. What about deputizing for the Commander in Chief if he was absent for a short or long period?
A. If the Commander in Chief was absent for a longer period, an especially assigned other military commander deputizied for him. He he was absent for a short period decisions which might be necessary were delayed until the Commander in Chief returned. And I, as Chief, worked on the recalled current matters.
Q. What did you mean by a shorter absence?
A. Shorter absence was understood to mean an absence when the Commander in Chief still remained within reach in some manner. That is, usually absent, but still present in his own area of command so that if sudden decisions became necessary, he could be reached by telephone or teletype and could be asked to make those decisions.
Court No. V, Case No. VII.
Q. And what do you mean by current affairs?
A. Current affairs are affairs which have already have decided on, at least in principle, either through decisions of their own commander-in-chief or by decisions of the superior authority. That is, matters so to speak went on their own.
Q. How did the work in the staff actually take place?
A. The work of such a staff is borne by the orders from above and by the reports and communications from lower commands and also by the events that approach from the outside.
Q. What was the official channeling of the incoming matters?
A. Incoming matters were channeled to the so-called main office, if they didn't bear a personal address by name and this main office, according to their importance either submitted them immediately to me or channeled them to the department which dealt with the questions concerned.
Then these matters, either before or after they had been dealt with, were submitted to me by the department chiefs and when they were essential and important or needed a decision, I submitted them to the Commander-in-Chief; or the officer who worked on them was requested by me to submit them to the Commander-in-Chief himself.
Q. How did the so-called daily reports come about?
A. The daily reports, generally speaking, arrived from lower commends in the afternoon or in the evening. Generally speaking, they comprised the events of the previous day.
Then these reports were combined in an own report by the expert who worked on them and the reports which had come in and the report which was intended to be sent out was reported verbally to the Commander-in-Chief either by me or in my presence by the man who had reported or if they were of special importance the exact wording was reported.
Q. How did the verbal reports with the Commanderin-Chief take their course?
A. That was done according to the requirements, Generally speaking, I or the expert concerned after we had been announced went in to see the Commander-in-Chief if important reports had become necessary and the daily reports were usually reported individually during the evening hours.
Q. I'd now like to put a few questions to you concerning certain concepts which turn up again and again in out documents. To begin with, what is a report?
A. A report is a summary as short as possible of events laid down in the manner in which the reporting person sees them.
Q. And what is an account?
A. An account is a more extensive report and, generally speaking, contains opinions and judgments.
Q. And what do you understand by an account of experiences?
A. An account of experiences is a description of a certain event or events with the conclusions generally drawn from the events. There is therefore certain amount of partiality contained in an account of experiences and it is not binding in its possible conclusions.
Q. What is an order?
A. An order is binding in every respect and comes from a superior authority.
Q. What is a directive?
A. A directive, in contrast to an order, gives the general direction of actions to be taken and it is not necessarily binding in its details.
Q. What do you understand by an instruction?
A. An instruction is an order on a higher level. An instruction, generally speaking, serves a large-scale interest. It is binding in what it says but it leaves leeway in its individual carrying out.
Q. Did you see all incoming matters?
A. No. Occasionally, in order to check and limit the paper war, I looked maybe every two or three months at all incoming matters, only in order to be able to check the extent of the incoming matters. If I had wanted to read incoming matters daily, I am sure during the course of one week I would have only been able to deal with the matters coming in on one day.
Q. What do your initials on some of the documents mean?
A. In this initialing, two things have to be distinguished. The initials on an incoming document mean I have read it on the date concerned. The initials on an outgoing order mean for the Commander-in-Chief or Commander she signs the order that the contents of that order were in accordance with his decision, or the decision of the superior authority respectively, and that the order had formerly been dealt with correctly; that, for instance, the distribution list had bean checked, that the degree of secrecy is in order, that possible references are correctly mentioned, etc.
Q. If now, concerning the facts, you were of a different opinion than your Commander-in-Chief, what happened then?
A. Then I had to succumb.