MR. FENSTERMACHER: I think one excuse, your Honor, is the fact that military classification terms are very difficult and there is some disagreement about them. I think another reason in the translation job in this case was so tremendous it had to be given out to several different offices and a considerable number of persons and this particular document, both Exhibits 14 and 15, were done by our Language Division which was not under our direct supervision and while we retain the right to go over and correct translations which were submitted by the Language Division our own staff missed some of those errors from time to time.
BY MR. FENSTERMACHER:
Q. General von Greiffenberg, will you look now at NOKW 484 which is Exhibit 13 in evidence, the second paragraph of that order states that the distribution of the Commissar order should be carried down to Commanders in Chief of Armies or Chiefs of the Luftwaffe only and that commanders and commanding officers be informed orally. Do you know who was meant by Commanders and Commanding officers, what rank those persons held and what kinds of units they commanded?
A. I assume that these meant the commanding generals and the Commanders of independent units.
Q. Would they be persons commanding divisions and corps rather than Armies?
A. No, the Commanders of Armies are already mentioned in the first part of the sentence.
Q Commander of Armies would receive the Commissar's order in writing out they were then to refer it to a subordinate commander; that is to say, Corps and Division Commanders, orally. Is that what this paragraph means?
AAccording to this document that would he the meaning, yes.
Q For how many years have you been a soldier, General von Greiffenberg?
A. As of 1914.
Q Did you serve in the First World War?
A Yes.
Q. And on how many different fronts did you serve in this War?
A In the First World War?
Q No, I mean in the Second World War.
A I was at the Western Front, in the Balkans and on the Russian front.
Q Were you always the Chief of Staff or did you later become a commander of an army?
A. No, I was never a commander of an army.
Q You were always Chief of Staff?
A I was Chief of Staff and before that Chief of a Department.
MR. FENSTERMACHER: No further questions, Your Honor.
JUDGE BURKE, PRESIDING: Are there further questions on the part of defense counsel?
DR. LATERNSER: A question, Your Honor; I have only one question. General, you said in answer to questions of the prosecution that what you testified in your interrogation of the 15th of January is your opinion today, too. I would now like to ask you; am I correct in the assumption that this answer is correct with the qualifications which became clear from my questions?
A Yes, that assumption is correct.
DR. LATERNSER: I have no further questions, Your Honor.
JUDGE BURKE, PRESIDING: Very well, Dr. Laternser. Are there further questions on the part of defense counsel?
(no response) Judge Wennerstrum, have you questions to propound?
THE PRESIDENT:I don't know that I have Judge Carter has some questions and if he does not cover what I have in mind I will supplement them.
JUDGE BURKE, PRESIDING: Judge Carter.
BY JUDGE CARTER: General, can you tell us the approximate date that the British or Canadians entered Greece?
A No, I am not in a position to do that.
Q. Can you tell us with reference to the time, that the Italians attacked Greece? Was it before or after that date?
A I assume that that was before. At least, before the British and Canadians came but I can't give you a date. As far as I remember the attacks of the Italians took place before.
Q Prior to the attack by the Italians Greece was a neutral station, was it not?
A Yes, indeed.
Q. And protected by the rules covering neutral nations?
A Yes.
Q. Now, after the attack by Italy it became a belligerent nation, did it not?
A Yes.
Q And by virtue of that attack it was forced to keep company, so to speak with the Allied Nations, is that not correct?
A Yes.
Q The point I an making then is that the neutrality of Greece ceased to exist at the time of the Italian attack?
A Yes.
Q Well, then, it was no breach of Greece's neutrality for the British to enter Greece after that date, was it?
A No, I don't believe it was, seen from that point-of-view.
Q In other words, then, the action of the Greeks in allowing the English to enter Greece was not the breach of neutrality from the German standpoint that warranted an act of war on the part of Germany; is that correct?
A I do not know of any political ties of any kind but I don't believe it.
Q In other words, at the time the Germans attacked Greece it is your conception that they were, in fact, at war with Greece because of the attack made by Italy; is that correct?
A Yes.
JUDGE CARTER: I have no further questions.
JUDGE BURKE, PRESIDING: Judge Wennerstrum, do you have questions to propound?
BY THE PRESIDENT:
Q Did I understand, Mr. Witness, that you are now an internee?
A Yes, that is correct.
Q And will you state again where you are interned?
A Generals and General Staff Officers are at the moment in a camp of historical division in Neustadt near Marburg. That's a special camp for the historical division.
Q And you are held in a form of prison, aren't you ?
A No, it's no prison.
Q It's no prison?
A No.
Q You are doing some -
A No, it's just a camp where we do historical work for the War Department.
Q Are you at liberty freely to come and go as you wish?
A We have the permission to leave from morning until evening. But we are under obligation to tell them where we are going.
Q You are not under any indictment?
A No.
Q But you are not privileged to go home?
A No. Only the Generals who are under certain indictment at the moment, they are not allowed to leave the camp but the other generals, we, we are allowed to leave the camp during the day from morning until evening, but of course we can't go home.
Q Well, has there been any statement in do to you as to why you cannot go home?
AAs far as I know that's in accordance with an order of the Military Government according to which all Generals and former General Staff Officers are still under a kind of automatic arrest.
Q But no charges have been filed against you?
A No, no.
Q. Now, when this statement was made by you on 15 January 1947 was there a Mr. Otto Kreilisheim present? Do you know him by that name?
A No, I don't know that gentleman.
Q Did he introduce himself, then designate himself as Mr. Otto Kreilisheim at that time?
A No, I don't know his name. I believe he just bowed and that was all. I don't know his name.
Q Were you brought to Nurnberg or was this statement taken somewhere else?
A No, together with several others I was brought to Nurnberg and I remained here for a few days.
Q Was this statement taken in the prison or war it taken somewhere else?
A No, it was taken in one of the interrogation rooms here in the Courthouse.
Q Were you informed that you might have or should have the right of counsel at the time you were interrogated?
A No, that wasn't said but according to the whole tenor of things and the whole situation it was a comparatively light interrogation so I didn't see any cause to ask for counsel.
Q Well, were you given the opportunity to have counsel if you wished it?
A I don't know what the directives are in Nurnberg to that effect. I don't know.
Q. Did somebody tell you at that time that if you wished counsel you might have it?
A No, there was no talk about that.
Q And the interrogator didn't tell you if you wanted a counsel you might have it?
A No, I don't believe that he said that; surely not.
Q You have read this statement over that has been commented upon here. Is everything in the statement that was said at that time?
A I didn't have a chance to read the very last page through but I would assume that everything is true but I didn't read the last page.
Q Well, beginning with the first part; is that the beginning of the interrogation? Was that the first statement that was made?
A Yes.
Q At one point in this interrogation you said that the interrogator told you that he would pass to some general matters and I believe you said that part was about the 15th question.
A Yes, as far as I remember after I have read it again here, I believe that must have been roughly there where he told me "You were not actually concerned there and I would therefore ask you as an unbioased person." Something like that.
Q. Did the stenographer or shorthand reporter leave the room at that time?
A. No, I don't think so.
Q. Did she remain in the room?
A. Yes.
Q. And did you know that she was taking down your answers at that time?
A. I can't say that today but I don't know.
Q. Did you know she was taking down at the first part of your questioning?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. You didn't observe whether she was writing your questions on the latter part?
A. I didn't watch the details but but talked to the interrogator.
Q. Now, where is this room in which you were interrogated?
A. It's one of the rooms in this Palace of Justice. It's an interrogation room.
Q. And what was in the room? What kind of room is it?
A. I believe, as far as I can recall, there was a largish table, a few chairs and no other functional equipment as far as I can recall but I didn't really watch all of these details.
Q. Was this statement made voluntarily? Was there any compulsion or any threats of any kind?
A. No, no. Quite voluntarily.
THE PRESIDENT: That's all.
JUDGE BURKE, PRESIDING: I have no questions at this time. It's possible that at the conclusion of the defendant's case I may wish to ask this witness some further questions. If not, the witness will be excused.
One moment.
DR. LATERNSER: Your Honor, I have no further questions to put to the witness but I would like to state the following: If at a later date, at a later stage of the proceeding, the Tribunal wishes to put questions to this witness and if the Tribunal approves it now, that would have the consequence that the witness will have to remain in the Nurnberg jail until that time. I would therefore like to make the suggestion that the witness may be allowed to return to the camp where he can be reached at any time, if and when the Tribunal wishes to put further questions to him. I am only saying that because I asked the witness to come here and I feel, therefore, kind of responsible for the fact that he shouldn't have to remain for a longer period here in the Nurnberg jail.
JUDGE BURKE, PRESIDING: I shall presently withdraw my request to have him presented at a later date. The witness may be excused.
DR. LATERNSER: Your Honor, I had the intention now to call a further witness but I would like to waive this examination because the testimony of this witness would be in most points cumulative and I would like to avoid that. I, therefore, waive the examination of a further witness.
JUDGE BURKE, PRESIDING: You may, of course, follow whatever course you desire to pursue with respect to calling or not calling the witness.
DR. LATERNSER: Your Honor, this means that we definitely refrain from calling this witness.
JUDGE BURKE, PRESIDING: Very well; if you will state his name for the record and there is no objection on the part of the prosecution he may accordingly be excused.
DR. LATERNSER: This is General Rudolf Konrad.
MR. FENSTERMACHER: The prosecution welcomes the withdrawal of that witness, your Honor.
JUDGE BURKE, PRESIDING: Very well, then, it is an accomplished fact.
DR. LATERNSER: Your Honor, I would like how to interrupt the presentation of evidence of Field Marshal List. I shall present the documents or rather I should like to present these documents when they are complete. Two Document Books have already been mimeographed and translated. The third Document Book, which becomes necessary on the basis of documents which arrived from Washington is at the present time not yet finished but I would like to present my documents in a completed form. My colleague Dr. Rauschenbach is now prepared to start his presentation of evidence so that there will be no delay in the proceedings.
JUDGE BURKE, PRESIDING: I think there can be no objection to the program; Dr. Rauschenbach you may proceed.
MR. FENSTERMACHER: Your Honor. I am wondering if at this time I might make a short statement regarding the policy of the prosecution with respect to pre-trial interrogations?
DR. BURKE, PRESIDING: Would you repeat that, Mr. Fenstermacher?
MR. FENSTERMACHER: I am wondering if I may make a statement at this time clarifying the attitude of the prosecution with respect to pre-trial interrogations and the various -
DR. BURKE, PRESIDING: It appears to be the opinion of the Tribunal that will be unnecessary at this time.
DR. RAUSCHENBACH: Rauschenbach for the defendant Foertsch. Your Honor, I take the liberty now to start with the presentation of evidence for the defense of the defendant Foertsch and if it please the Tribunal I would like to take the following sequence in this presentation.
I shall now begin with calling the defendant General von Foertsch to the stand and question him on his personal data and on his military development and while he is on the stand I shall submit Document Book I to the Tribunal. In connection with this Document Book I have a few questions to put to the defendant and then I shall come to the nucleus of the matter. I don't suppose that there will be any objection to that procedure, that the defendant Foertsch remain on the witness stand while the document books are being presented?
JUDGE BURKE, PRESIDING: You may proceed in such course as you deem appropriate and proper and at such time an objection may be made the Tribunal will attempt to pass upon it. Proceed as you have elected.
DR. RAUSCHENBACH: I shall then call the defendant Hermann Foertsch to the witness stand.
HERMANN FOERTSCH, a witness, took the stand and testified as follows:
BY JUDGE BURKE, PRESIDING: Will you please raise your right hand and repeat after me the oath?
I swear by God, the Almighty and Omniscient, that I will speak the pure truth and will withhold and add nothing.
(The witness repeated the oath)
Very well, you may be seated.
DIRECT EXAMINATION BY DR. RAUSCHENBACH:
Q. Witness, will you briefly give your personal data, that is, your family, etc.?
A. My name is Hermann Foertsch. I was born on 4 April 1895 in Drahnow. Drahnow is in West Prussia. I am married since 1924.
I had three sons, the oldest of whom is missing on the Eastern Front since January 1945.
Q. Will you give us a brief survey of your curriculum vitae until the completion of your school education?
A. First of all, I attended elementary school for three years and then I came to a Humanistic High school at first at Filene in the Province of Posen and later at Schneidemuehl where in 1913 I graduated. I was only a mediocre pupil. My interests were mainly concentrated on history and languages. I had little interest and understanding in mathematics and allied subjects.
Q. And what profession did you choose?
A. For a long time I wasn't sure whether I should the study of languages, religious subjects or become an officer. All three subjects interested me and mainly in the pedagogical line. The choice of profession was made simpler because my parents could not make it possible for me to attend a university. For that reason I became an officer and never in my life have I regretted that choice.
Q. How did your military career - your career as an officerdevelop until tho outbreak of the first World War?
A. Immediately after I had graduated I started as officer candidate in the Infantry Regiment 175 in Graudenz, West Prussia, I visited the officers training school in Potsdam where, shortly before the outbreak of the first World War, I passed the officer's examination. Thus, when the first World War broke out, I was made a lieutenant.
Q. Where were you employed during the first World War?
A. First of all, I participated in the liberation of East Prussia, amongst others, the Battle of Tannenburg, the Battle on the Masuric Lakes, and then the campaigns in Poland and, in December, 1941, I was wounded. After my recovery, I returned to my regiment and participated in the large German offensive - that was in the year 1915 into Russia. In Autumn, 1915, my unit was transferred to the West.
Q. And what campaigns did you participate in there?
A. There was, at first, only immobile warfare and then I participated in the beginning of the Battle of the Somme. All that as a company platoon leader of infantry. In 1916, I was transferred as company leader to a shock battalion and I remained there until the end of the war.
Q. What decorations did you receive during the first World War?
A. In 1914, the Iron Cross, 2nd Class. In 1916, the Iron Cross, 1st class, and, in 1918, the Knight's Cross of the House Order of the House of Hohenzollern and, besides these, tho wounded decoration.
Q. After the first World War, how were you employed them?
A. After the first World War, from the remnants of the shock battalion 7 which I have mentioned I formed a company of volunteers and this was firstly employed for the protection of the supreme army high command in Wilhelmshohe near Kassel and in Kolberg. Later, I was employed with that company for the combatting of internal unrest.
Q. Where was that?
A. Partly in Pomerania, in Hanover after the Kapp-Putsch, and in the Ruhr Area.
Q. What experiences did you make in these internal struggles?
A. These inner struggles at that time impressed me, as well as the whole company, strongly because they tore on the nerves and discipline of the troops and made enormous demands on the nerves and discipline. Three weeks of front action I would prefer to three days of civil war.
Q. After these inner struggles were concluded and after the republican government had been established, how were you employed later?
A. At the beginning of the year 1921, I was commanded to the socalled auxilliary leader training. That was the substitute for the former War Academy and it trained officers for the general staff.
Q. Did you report voluntarily for this position or were you commanded there officially?
A. There was no voluntary reporting at that time. That was customary before the first World War but after 1919 one was officially ordered.
Q. And where did that training take place?
A. The first two years of this training I spent with the Military District in Number 6 in Westphalia. Then, after one year of activity in the troop, I was commanded for one year to go to the Reich War Ministry as an ordance officer to the Chief of the Troop Office.
Q. What influence did this year of employment have on your further military development?
A. I don't think it had any official influence connected with my official position but I personally, during that year, got to know a great number of personalities which was to my advantage later on, and as a young man, I got to know the work of a central office and at that time I had the first contact with questions of politics because it was that winter of 1923/1924 when an emergency state was declared and was in the hands of the army leadership.
Q. How did it go on after that one year with the Chief of the Troop Office was concluded?
A. The last year of the training I spent again the Reich War Ministry.
Q. In what capacity?
A. That was still part of my training and subsequently I became press expert for the German press in the Reich War Ministry.
Q. To what extent were you qualified for this activity?
A. I don't know that. I myself didn't feel qualified to do it. I had requested to be employed in a purely military position and I was surprised when I received this assignment.
Q. What were your tasks as press expert.
A. I had to deal with the evaluation of the German daily press with regard to military and military political matters and I also had to deal with military periodicals.
Q. What was the direction and the tendency of the work? What were the principles?
A. During these years, 1925 to 1930, two major problems were concerned. Inner politically, it was the above Party nature of the Wehrmacht and, concerning foreign policy, it was a question of disarmament.
Q. How long did this activity of yours last?
A. Until, the 1st of April, 1930.
Q. And after that date?
A. Subsequently I became company commander in Goettingen.
Q. Was your interest now strictly limited to the purely military questions of the front?
A. No, by no means. My comparatively extensive spare time I spent to have contact with the professors and lecturers of the Goettingen University and I had contact especially with historians.
Amongst others, there was Professor Brandi, Professor Schramm, and, with other pedagogues, Professor Noel and, during that time, I personally was especially interested and occupied myself with the great soldiers of the time of the Wars of Liberation.
Q. Did you write anything as a result of these studies?
A. At that time, I wrote something about General von York, about General von Beuen and about General von Grohlmann.
Q. What moved you to do that?
A. In my activity as a press expert I had to write anyway and I found that I liked it and I was interested in these personalities and especially in their universal education and in their reactions to the ideas of their time - that is, after the French Revolution - and in their pedogogual and organizational capabilities and measures.
Q. After you had finished this tine as company commander, how and where were you further employed?
A. I was then to become an instructor in the War Academy but, unfortunately, I was again called to the Reich War Ministry to do approximately the same work which I had done before. I became press chief of the Reich War Ministry.
Q. In practice, did you do the same as you had done before?
A. The sphere of tasks was somewhat larger, naturally, and, in addition, there was the whole foreign press, all questions of propaganda, publication of books, and, in the course of time, furthermore, the questions of general importance which concerned the whole Webrmacht.
Q: What were the political motives and basic ideas of the then military leaders and your own ideas?
A: The political motives and ideas of the leaders of the Reichswehr had really remained the same, the aboveparty character of the Wehrmacht, but the question of disarmament had somewhat shifted to the question of the German equality in the sphere of armament which had not taken place on the part of the other powers.
Q: That will now lead us to the time of the taking over of power by the national socialists. What effects on the Wehrmacht did this assumption of power have and what effects did it have on your position?
A: In August, 1943, I entered that division and in this capacity I experienced the change which took place. Up until the death of the Reichspresident von Hindenburg, the influence of the nationalsocialist party which was now the government power was comparatively small. After that date, the influence on the Wehrmacht became considerably stronger.
Q: What influence did that have on your up-to-thattime above-party attitude?
A: I personally did not deviate from the idea of an above party attitude. I was personally at the beginning of the new regime confronted with a hostile attitude because I was as one called it at that time, a creature of Schleicher's -- that is no reflection on my character but it just meant that I was connected with Schleicher, General von Schleicher and for that reason I found enormous difficulties.
Q: Who was hostile to you?
A: The national socialists were hostile and then at that time I asked to be replaced and I asked to be employed at the front. However, I was not granted that. Concerning this subject, I had a very long discussion with General von Reichenau and on my request he then assured me that one would from now on protect me properly if I would remain in that position, and that happened.
Q: Did you yourself make an attempt to fight the change which was taking place, the national socialist assumption of power?
A: No, I personally had at that time about the following ideas. The whole manner and fashion of the national socialist party was disagreeable to me. I considered their aims exaggerated and their methods to assume power not very fair but I had to recognize that something was concerned here, something different from a normal change of governments and during the course of the year 1933 I fully realized that consequently one had to pursue one's own aims with completely different means as it had been possible up till then.
At that time, in that small circle where I could work I showed to my officers the following picture. I had told them that it was not important for the Wehrmacht to remain on the banks of this new river and to be spit in it, but to swim in this new stream with the aim to reach the top and to take over the leadership.
Q: And how did you practically show this opinion of yours and this attitude?
A: Firstly, I could do that in influencing the press which was connected with us and above all I waged a bitter but successful struggle against the so-called political military office of the NSDAP which today is completely unknown. This office was about the same in the military sphere as the foreign political office of Rosenberg was in the foreign political sphere. That is, it was the competition the party's rival towards the authorities of the state.
Q: What did you publish at that time?
A: I may perhaps say one additional sentence. This whole struggle at that time -- or should I say my whole work at that time was concentrated on the idea that through a more opposition one could not achieve anything, but only through, to use another picture, only through not using the break on this Statecoach but instead the front horse. Today, I know that was a fruitless undertaking but at that time I was no more clever than most people in Germany and abroad.
Q: I repeat my question then. What essays did you publish at that time?
A: During that time, I had to write a lot, most things in an official capacity. The most important of my writings at that time is a pamphlet with a title "The Officer of the German Wehrmacht." This is a booklet which I wrote on official commission but published under my name. In this booklet, a lot of national socialist ideology is represented but during that time next to purely military matters, I also wrote two smaller things which again annoyed the other side. One was an article with a title "Soldierism Minunderstood," which was directed against the militarism of Ley's.
Q: Just a minute. Who was Ley?
A: He was the Reich Organization Leader, Dr. Robert Ley. And I wrote a further work which was called "critical Thinking and Mental Versatility" and it was concentrated on the methods of the education of the Hitler Youth.
Q: You mean opposed to those methods?
A: The article which I mentioned first was very explicit. The second one said rather subtly everything that was necessary.
PRESIDING JUDGE BURKE: At this place, we will adjourn until tomorrow morning at nine-thirty.
(A recess was taken until 10 October 1947 at 0030 hrs.)
Official Transcript of the American Military Tribunal in the matter of the United States of America against Wilhelm List et al, defendants, sitting at Nurnberg, Germany, on 10 October 1947, 0930, Justice Wennerstrum presiding.
THE MARSHAL: Persons in the Courtroom will please find their seats.
The Honorable, the Judges of Military Tribunal V.
Military Tribunal V is now in session. God save the United States of America and this Honorable Tribunal.
There will be order in the Court.
THE PRESIDENT: Mr. Marshal, will you ascertain as to whether or not all defendants are present in the Courtroom?
THE MARSHAL: May it please Your Honor, all the defendants are present in the Courtroom, except the Defendant von Weichs who is still in the hospital.
THE PRESIDENT: You may proceed with the examination, Dr. Rauschenbach.
DEFENDANT HERMANN FOERTSCH- Resumed DIRECT EXAMINATION (Continued) BY DR. RAUSCHENBACH:
Q Yesterday we had reached your activity in the Reichswehr Ministry--your writing activities,--, and that led us up to approximately the fall of 1935. When did you conclude these activities, and for what reason?
A In October, 1935 I was transferred. I was told that the Navy leadership wanted to fill my position. The employment at the Front was in accordance with my own wishes, and the emigrant press asserted that the Party had moved me because I was a reactionary.
Q Were those voices from abroad correct?
A That is difficult to answer. It was the fate of many officers who were connected with political affairs that they were misunderstood and attacked from many sies, and one had to take that into account.
Q On the basis of your writing activity were you a member of the Reichs Literary Chamber or any similar National Socialist association?