Q There were conferences, weren't there, between the Army Group Commander his Staff and the subordinate Army Commanders and their staff, at which time the Army Commanders reported events in their rear as well as events in their rear as well events in the front of their area?
A That is quite possible. I don't know how it was discussed in detail.
Q Now, General the Commissar Order when it came down from the OKU and OKH caused quite a lot of consternation in German Military circles between the higher Military office, did it not?
A Yes, that is quite correct.
Q It was discussed to quite a large extent by all higher offices at your various meetings and reporting conferences?
A Yes.
Q Who generally caught the Commissars in the Russian war, were they captured in the course of fighting at the front?
A Yes, when the Commissars were caught they could only have been captured during combat. There was no other possibility. I don't know.
Q And then according to your orders were supposed to be sent by the troops to the rear, and after they were put in a Prisoner of War camp the SD would go into the Prisoner of War camp and pick out the commissars and execute them?
A This famous commissar order was issued before the Russian campaign, but after such a long time I cannot say any longer what details contained in that order, and I now therefore could not answer that question with a definite certainty, in what procedure was prescribed. I don't know that.
Q That order was so severe, and there was so much opposition to it that it was handed down orally wasn't it, General?
A The Army Group of Field Marshall List, as far as I know, never received that order when he took over the command in July, but we had to take over parts of orders regarding a task at the front, because Army Group List was quite a new Army, which had to be created. All other Army files we did not take over, and therefore I believe Field Marshal List never got to sac that order. That is only my belief. At least I do not remember that Field Marshal List discussed this order with me or another member of his staff at any time. I cannot remember this incident, and I don't believe it took place.
Q General, wasn't the Commissar Order handed down only to officers of a general's rank?
A I don't know that. In my opinion the order was issued by the OKW with the OKH, and went in copies to the higher command authorities at the front, as far as I remember this happened at the beginning of the Russian campaign, but as I said before, for many years I haven't seen Field Marshall List. I haven't discussed it with him, and I cannot therefore say what the distribution was in detail.
Q. I am not so much interested now in the relationship between Field Marshal list and the Commissar Order as I am in establishing from your recollection exactly how the OKW and OKH Commissar Order was sent to the troops. I believe I asked you whether you remember that that Commissar Order was supposed to be given to officers of general's rank only. Do you recall that limitation?
A. This limitation I do not remember but, as I said, it is possible. I don't know it
Q. And I wonder if you recall that there was a provision in the order that it should be destroyed and burned after it was received by the army commander?
THE PRESIDENT: Pardon me, Mr. Fenstermacher. Apparently there is some mechanical difficulty on the reporters' receiving set which should be checked. They are not receiving the German on the reporters' set. I think we should await some developments here.
(A recess was taken.)
THE MARSHAL: The court is again in session.
JUDGE BURKE: You may proceed, Mr. Fenstermacher.
BY MR. FENSTERMACHER:
Q. Thank you, Your Honor.
General, before the interruption. I think you answered my last question to the effect that the Commissar Order was only issued to officers of general's rank and was to be passed down by them to their subordinate troops only orally and not in writing. Have I stated your answer correctly?
A. Yes, I said I don't believe that it was this way, but on the exact words which I said I cannot remember.
Q. You don' t recall, General, that the Commissar Order was limited to officers of general rank only?
A. No, I don't.
Q. Did you yourself ever receive the Commissar Order?
A. General Field Marshal vn Book showed it to me when I came to his staff and when he instructed me in my new tasks.
Q. Did Field Marshal List succeed Field Marshal von Bock as commander-in-chief of Army Group A?
A. No, he didn't do that.
Q. What army group did Field Marshal von Bock have at the time he showed you the Commissar Order?
A. The Army Group Middle.
Q. Was the Commissar Order passed on by Field Marshal von Bock?
A. I don't believe that because this Commissar Order was not only given to the army groups but, simultaneously, as far as I remember, immediately to the armies, etc., so that a passing on our part was superfluous.
Q. General, I would like to return for a minute to the time you were chief of staff to Field Marshal List as commander-in-chief of Army Group A. I believe you stated yesterday that you did not believe any commissars were executed within the territorial jurisdiction of Army Group A at the time Field Marshal List commanded that Army Group.
A. I don't believe that. At least I cannot remember any dates or detail of any such matter.
Q. The Crimean Peninsula of Russia was within the territorial jurisdiction of Army Group A at that time, was it not?
A. Within the jurisdiction of the 12th Army the Crimea was.
Q. No, I mean within the territorial jurisdiction of Army Group,A, at the time Field Marshal List commanded Army Group A.
A. At the time when Field Marshal List commanded Army Group A, the 11th Army was subordinated to that army group. That is correct.
Q. And the 11th Army was operating on the Crimean Peninsula at that time?
A. They operated in the Crimean Peninsula and, as far as I remember now, a few days after the operation had started and after Field Marshal List had taken over the command, they were transferred to the area of Petersburg. I don't know the exact date.
Q. General, I would like to show you NOKW-848, which has been introduced into evidence as Prosecution Exhibit 589, You will note, General, that this is an Activity Report for the month of July 1942, of the Secret Field Police Group 647 and you will note also the receipt stamp of the 11th Army I-c or Intelligence Section on the first page of the document indicating that the 11th Army received this report.
A. Yes, I see that.
Q. Now, would you turn to page 4 of that document and to paragraph 3 which appears there. You find this: "The Politruk Kaliba, Joseph, 33 yea.rs old, and the battalion commissar Mahalla, Vassili, 35 years old, were shot by order of I-c of the 42nd Infantry Corps. Both were hiding with the partisan group in the quarries at Kerch and tried to fight their way to the coast to the Reds."
Do you find that?
A. Yes, I found the passage.
Q. Kerch is on the Crimean Peninsula, is it not, General?
A. Yes, indeed.
Q. Now, before I ask you any more questions on this I wonder, would you tell us why you high ranking German generals were opposed to the commissar order?
A. Officers of higher rank -- I am now thinking of Field Marshal von Bock were opposed to the commissar order because it was not a just order and it was against all principles of the German Wehrmacht.
Q. It was against the principles of the German Wehrmacht because political commissars were fully dressed and were the same as any other member of the Russian army. Isn't that true?
A. Yes, it is correct.
Q. And this order to execute political commissars was in effect an order to kill a prisoner of war, was it not?
A. I believe it could be put like that. I don't know.
Q. Did you, General von Greiffenberg, ever receive any information to the effect that the Politruk and the Commissar Were executed on orders of the I-c or Intelligence Office of the 42nd Infantry Corps sometime in July 1942?
A. No, I do not know that.
Q. Do you know what a Politruk is, General?
A. Yes, I know the German explanation for that word which was issued at that time.
Q. What is the explanation?
A. That a Politruk is an agent of the Russian government or party who had been commissioned with indoctrinating the troops with the Communist idea and Communist principles any plane where he appeared and where he was active. I believe that was just the rough description.
Q. He was a regular member of the Russian army, the same as a political commissar except that he was attached to a lower unit than the political commissar was attached to. Isn't that correct?
A. I believe -- yes, that is correct. I assume that is correct.
Q. General, I believe you stated yesterday that sometime in August 1942 there was a difference of opinion between Field Marshal List and Hitler regarding a particular troop operation.
A. Yes, I believe you mean the fight for the Caucasus and the Caucasus Mountains. That is correct.
Q. That difference of opinion with Hitler was only of a tactical nature, was it not? It didn't have any other implications.
A. The difference of opinion between the Commander in Chief and Hitler was of a tactical nature, naturally.
Q. Do you know whether it had any other implications -- I mean by that, whether it represented a disagreement by Field Marshal List with the way Hitler was waging the war and the methods he was requiring?
A. The rejection of Hitler's methods were so clearly expressed by Field Marshal List on every possible occasion, that that was only one further fact, there can be no doubt about it.
Q. This particular difference of opinion was tactical and only tactical.
A. This one was of a tactical nature but at the same time opposition against this interference came from above in a general Wehrmacht affair.
Q. Do you know, General, whether Field Marshal List was ever bothered or annoyed by the Party after he returned to Garmisch-Partenkirchen following his resignation as Commander in Chief of Army Group S.
A. I cannot say that in detail hut I believe that Field Marshal List lived there in a very retired manner and that he was not liked by Party circles after what happened at all.
Q. Was he disliked by Party circles before he resigned or only after he resigned?
A. I don' t know that in detail but I think that Field Marshal List was never particularly well liked by the Party and even less was he supported by them on the contrary.
Q. Would you be surprised, General, to learn that Field Marshal Keitel said on Field Marshal List's service record in April 1942 that Field Marshal List enjoyed the unbounded confidence of the Fuehrer? Is that surprising to you?
A. I don't believe that. I couldn't imagine that.
Q. You don't believe that Keitel could make such a statement in April 1942?
A. I believe that with clear conscience he could not have made such a statement about Field Marshal List, according to my knowledge of Field Marshal List.
Q. Would you look, General von Greiffenberg, at Exhibit 3 in Document Book I, which is at page 4 of the English and page 4 of the German document book?
This is Field Marshal List's service record -- and would you look under the section, "War Time Service Record " under 10 September 1942?
"He resigned as Commander in Chief Army Group and is at disposal of of the Fuehrer."
Do you know what that "disposal of the Fuehrer" means?
A. In my opinion, that means the same as it means for every officer who had retired from their military service or from their position temporarily. They were as a matter of principle members of the so-called "Fuehrer Reserve." That as, the personnel office was in a position to dispose of this Fuehrer Reserve. That has nothing to do with Hitler personally.
Q. Was Field Marshal List's resignation as Commander in Chief of Army Group A done voluntarily on his part?
A. Whether it was voluntary on his part?
Q. Yes.
A. Yes, on the basis of the discussion with Field Marshal Keitel he himself throw down his command post because he could not longer bear the situation. That is quite certain.
Q. Now, would you look at the -- still on page 4, I believe, of your document book there, page 5 of the English document book. Under "Recommendations" you will see there is a. statement by Field Marshal von Rundstedt and there follows this statement by Field Marshal Keitel on the 24th of April 1942. That is before Field Marshal List became Commander in Chief of Army Group A. It states:
"Commander in Chief 12th Army and Wehrmacht Commander Southeast. Most highly proven. Enjoys the unlimited confidence of the Fuehrer."
Was that the general opinion of Field Marshal List a.t that time in the circles in which you were acquainted?
A. I believe that Field Marshal List and we were not of the opinion that he enjoyed the unlimited confidence of the Fuehrer. I don't believe that.
Q. General, I believe you stated yesterday that you considered Field
Q. General, I believe you stated yesterday that you considered Field Marshal List a man of great strength of character. Do you believe that anyone could make Field Marshal List do anything which Field Marshal List didn't want to do?
A. I cannot answer that question. I don't know how you mean it. Could you ask it again please?
Q. I mean do you consider Field Marshal List a man of enough strength of character to defy persons with whom he disagreed rather than do something which he didn't want to do?
A. I believe, I am convinced and we all were convinced that Field Marshal List was a. man of great strength of character and we believe that he would take the consequences. Therefore, I believe and we all believed that he gave up his commander in chief s position because it was impossible for him to work under the prevailing circumstances.
Q. You consider --
PRESIDING JUDGE BURKE: Just a moment.
MR. FENSTERMACHER: May I ask just one more question on this point, your Honor?
PRESIDING JUDGE BURKE: Yes.
Q. Do you feel that Field Marshal List would not have hesitated to stand up to Hitler if he disagreed with what Hitler was asking him to do?
PRESIDING JUDGE BURKE: I think you asked the identical question yesterday, Mr. Fenstermacher.
MR. FENSTERMACHER: Very well, your Honor. That's right.
DR. SAUTER (Counsel for defendants Lanz and von Geitner): Your Honors, General von Geitner feels so unwell that he is not in a position to follow the proceedings. I have here an English medical certificate of the prison doctor where it is confirmed that it can be expected that he will have to leave the courtroom and go back to the prison. His state got worse during the morning today and I would ask that the defendant von Geitner may be excused from the session this afternoon.
I myself shall be present during the afternoon and, of course, guard the interests of the defendant von Geitner. The medical certificate is at the disposal of the Tribunal.
PRESIDING JUDGE BURKE: Any objection on the part of the prosecution?
MR. FENSTERMACHER: No objection by the prosecution, your Honor.
PRESIDING JUDGE BURKE: Very well. It may be done. The court will stand in recess until one--thirty this afternoon
THE MARSHAL: The court is in recess.
(A recess was taken until 1330 hours.)
Court No. V, Case No. VII.
AFTERNOON SESSION The hearing reconvened at 1330 hours.
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal is again in session.
HANS von GREIFFENBERG - Resumed CROSS EXAMINATION-- Continued
PRESIDING JUDGE BURKE: You may proceed, Mr. Fenstermacher.
MR. FENSTERMACHER: Okeh, your Honor.
BY MR. FENSTERMACHER:
Q. General von Greiffenberg, prior to the luncheon recess we were speaking about the character and temperment of Field Marshal List as far as you were acquainted with him. Do you believe that Field Marshal List was the type of person who would permit any insubordination by SS or Party functionaries who were within his territorial or executive jurisdiction?
A. No. I am convinced that Field Marshal List would not permit such measures.
Q Perhaps, you didn't quite understand. Maybe I better make myself a little bit clearer. Do you believe that Field Marshal List as a man and as a Field Marshal would have permitted any insubordination by SS or Party functionaries who were under his territorial, tactical or executive jurisdiction?
A. No. I have the view that Field Marshal List would net have suffered insubordination of any man or any units under his command.
Q. Did Field Marshal List impress you as the type of Commander who was always well informed of what was happening within his command area?
A. Field Marshal List was a very keen man and he often visited his troops and was very well informed about what was happening in his area.
Q. Do you know whether Field Marshal List has a good memory or not?
A. Yes, at that time he had an excellent memory.
Q. Then I believe you said that in January you and Field Marshal List came down to Nurnberg together and that he intended - withdraw - and that at that time he anticipated that he would be called as a witness in one of the trials here. Did you ever discuss events in Serbia with Field Marshal List at that time?
A. No, we did not discuss Serbain incidents at all. We merely discussed the incidents in Greece.
Q. General, what was your rank at the end of the war?
A. At the end of the war I was a General of the Infantry.
Q. And that, I believe, corresponds in the American table of ranks as a Three-Star General or Lieutenant General.
A. I believe it is so.
Q. Thank you, General.
MR. FENSTERMACHER: No further questions, your Honors.
PRESIDING JUDGE BURKE: Are there further questions, Dr. Laternser?
REDIRECT EXAMINATION BY DR. LATERSNER (Counsel for defendants List and von Weichs):
Q. General, it was put to you that Field Marshal List could only have become a Field Marshal if he had also been a National Socialist; it would only then have been possible. When did General von Witzleben become a Field Marshal?
A. You mean General von Witzleben? The 20th of July----?
Q. Yes.
A. I can't say that.
Q. Could you reflect a bit about it? When was it that several generals were promoted to Foeld Marshals? On the strength of what?
A. On the strength of their services in the Polish and in the French campaigns.
Q. Do you remember that after the conclusion of the campaign in the West many general were promoted to Field Marshals?
A. Yes.
Q. We always want to make a short pause after every question.
A. Yes.
Q. When did Field Marshal List reach this service rank?
A. For the same reason, after the conclusion of the Western campaign.
Q. And when was General von Witzleben promoted to Field Marshal?
A. I cannot tell you exactly. I couldn't tell you.
Q. Could you kindly try and think, General, about when he was promoted to Field Marshal? Was it on the same day?
A. I believe he belonged to the group who became Field Marshals at the same time.
Q. General, I must ask you again to wait a few seconds after each of my questions. What was the attitude of Field Marshal von Witzleben to National Socialism.
A. Field Marshal von Witzleben had the most critical attitude towards National Socialism. That is clear from his whole career.
Q. What happened to Field Marshal von Witzleben?
A. He was executed.
Q. What was Field Marshal von Kluge's attitude toward National Socialism?
A. Field Marshal von Kluge, as far as I can judge, was also an opponent of National Socialism.
Q. And when did he become a Field Marshal?
A. At the same occasion when the other generals of which we have just spoken became Field Marshals.
Q. That is when?
A. After the Western campaign.
Q. And when was the Western campaign concluded?
A. In the summer of 1940.
Q. General, Exhibit 3 was submitted to you. This is an extract from the so-called service record, and in one of the columns it said, as was submitted to you by the prosecution, that Field Marshal List became a member of the Fuehrer Reserve on the 10th of September. What did the concept, "Fuehrer's Reserve," signify?
A. The concept, "Fuehrer Reserve," as we know it, means that officers who for any reason were not used at the moment may be for reasons of health or for any other reason automatically become members of the so-called "Fuehrer Reserve", in order to be available as officers in case of emergency or if they had become well again.
Q. Did this idea of Fuehrer Reserve mean that only Hitler could dispose of this reserve?
A. No, the Fuehrer Reserve was a reserve of the personnel office.
Q. People of which service rank became members of the Fuehrer Reserve?
A. I can't tell you exactly from which rank, I personally, at any rate was in the Fuehrer Reserve as a colonel and brigadier general.
Q. Even as colonel?
A. Yes, I was promoted during that time.
Q. Did even lower ranks become members of the Fuehrer Reserve?
A. I cannot tell you that now. I don't know it.
Q. In this Exhibit 3, General, which I submitted to you, is a note of Keitel's about which I want to ask you some questions. What kind of paper does this document represent?
A. I assume that this is a sort of card index of the Personnel office.
Q. Of which Personnel Office?
A. Of the Army Personnel Office.
Q. Is this judgment which is expressed here of a political or a military nature?
A. This is a military judgment.
Q. We want to leave that for the moment. General, what was added to military judgments, according to regulations? What would a military judgment also have to take into account?
A. Apart from the purely military services and achievements, it was regulation that there was to be a note something about if the person concerned was a friend of National Socialism or some words to that effect. I don't know exactly.
Q. Was that provision for every judgment?
A. It was a regulation as far as our military judgments in the Army were concerned.
Q. What was the usual addenda to such a judgment?
A. There was a stereotyped formula which read something like this: "He represents the National Socialist concept," one sentence only.
Q. How were judgments treated in which this sentence, which was a regulation sentence, was not contained?
A. I can't remember that that sentence was lacking in any judgment which I have read.
Q. Could we then say that this additional political judgment which was added to the military judgment was simply a kind of generalization?
A. One could say that with good conscience.
Q. Would it have been possible for an officer to continue in service if, for instance, a judgment on this point would have been negative?
A. No, then he could no longer be used.
Q. General, during your examination an interrogation of the 15th of January, was submitted, regarding which I want to ask you some questions -- where did this interrogation of the 15th of January take place?
A. Here in this building somewhere. I don't know exactly where.
Q. Who was present at this interrogation?
A. One interrogator in uniform was present, but I don't know his name, and a lady was present.
Q. What were you told before the interrogation regarding its purpose?
A. Regarding its purpose nothing was said to me. I was asked about my curriculum vitae in detail at the beginning.
Q. At the beginning--but of course that wasn't all?
A. No.
Q. What were you told about the purpose of this interrogation, as soon as the interrogator asked you about your career in detail?
A. After my career had been described the interrogator told me that I had not been in the Balkans at the time in question, and as a consequence of this he broke off the interrogation in this sense. And then he told the lady that this did not belong to the record. This interrogator only wanted to talk to me about a few questions.
Q. Did the lady then leave the room?
A. No, she stayed.
Q. Did you sec then that she wrote during this discussion?
A. I couldn't tell you. I didn't observe that.
Q. During the interrogation itself did you know how or against whom or for whom this interrogation was to be used?
A. I had no idea at all.
Q. During the interrogation did you expect that this interrogation might possibly be used or directed against you?
A. No, I never reckoned with this possibility.
Q. You then swore to this statement?
A. No, I did not swear.
Q. Did you receive the record of this interrogation later on?
A. No, I did not see it again.
Q. Was it given to you to look through it?
A. No, I did not get to look through it.
Q. Was the translation of this record into the English language submitted to you?
A. No.
Q. Did you sign this transcript?
A. No.
Q. After you had been told that an interrogation was no longer necessary because you had not been in the Balkans at the time in question, did you have the impression that this was no longer an interrogation, but just an ordinary conversation?
A. I had the impression that it had now become a conversation.
Q. Would you kindly look at this transcript in order to e establish when you were told that you had not been present in the Balkans at the critical time, and that your interrogation was no longer interesting? Could you kindly look through the transcript now and tell us about what period you were told that your interrogation was no longer necessary?
(WITNESS CONSULTS TRANSCRIPT)
A. I believe it started at about the fifteenth question, where the interrogator says, "I now want to put a question to you which you can answer impartially."
Q. You take it then that at about this point you were told, "We don't want to interrogate you; we now just want to discuss these matter s"?
A. Yes. The expression, "You can answer impartially" makes me think that from this point onward we merely engaged in a conversation.
Q. Are you surprised that your conversation was taken down in shorthand after all?
A. I did not know that it was taken down, and I, in fact, believed that it had not been taken down.
Q. When you made the subsequent statements you were not aware that you were being interrogated?
A. I believed that the second was more in the nature of a conversation.
Q. I want to submit the record again to you in order to establish whether the order of the questions here corresponds to the order of the questions which corresponds to the conversation or the interrogation of that date.
A. I'm not in a position to say whether these questions took place in this sequence. I cannot tell. I am not in a position to do so. It seems that they took place in that sequence.
Q. Now, another point: When did you finally leave the Balkans?
A. In May of that year.
Q. Did any kind of fighting with bands take place during that time?
A. At that date band warfare which would have come to the knowledge of the Army if it had taken place, did not take place.
Q. And in the subsequent time, after you left the Balkans, did you have any official contacts with the Balkans?
A. No.