Were you asked that question and did you give that answer, General von Greiffenberg?
A. Yes, the question was put to me as far as I remember and I gave the answer. That is, the sense of the answer, and as far as I remember it today, it is correct.
Q. Were you asked this question and did you give this answer at that time?
"Q. Would you answer the question respecting the justification of destroying villages in a similar manner?
"A. Yes. When the villages were to be destroyed in Russia, we, as leaders of units, turned against this because the measures were just as detrimental to our own leadership of units as to the enemy.
A. Yes.
Q. Were you asked this question and did you give this answer at the same time?
"Q. I am now thinking of cases where the inhabitants of the village gave protection to partisans. In reply to this protection, the destruction of the village and also, as we gather from certain orders, the destruction of the neighboring village was frequently ordered, a matter which in our eyes cannot be justified in any way, and which we regard as criminal. Would you agree to this characterization?
"A. Yes. If villages are destroyed in order to mete out vengeance, then I see no reason for it. First of all, it has no sense and, secondly, the people of the neighboring village could not help it. I think that this is the general opinion.
A. Yes, I had this feeling.
Q. Were you asked this question and did you give this answer on the same occasion?
"Q. Recently, I have spoken with higher officers on this question, In German documents, the opponent is often designated as "Bandit." Simultaneously, the expressions "Bandit-brigade, bandit-divisions"/ sometimes oven with numbers crop up. It is our impression that there is a discrepancy here since a band is not organized like a brigade or division.
Can you tell me what, in your opinion, explains the continued use of the expression "band" when the Ic's knew very well that it was a matter of organized units who had at their disposal definite equipment and weapons and which again were subordinated to another unit?
"A. I heard that the expression "bands" was ordered in contrastwhich had been customarily--to partisans."
A. Yes.
Q. Were you asked this question and did you give this answer on the same day?
"What, in your opinion, explains this order?
"A. In the partisan one can assume a loyal fighter, whereas one always understands something criminal in the expression "bandit".
A. Yes.
Q. Were you asked this question and did you give this answer on the same day?
"Q. Would that have any consequences with respect to the treatment of the opponent?
"A. Yes, if an opponent does something with a criminal intent which is not permissible by military laws, then he does not deserve the honorable name "partisan." Then he is a criminal, a bandit."
A. Yes.
Q. Were you asked this question and did you give this answer on the same occasion?
"Q. Then in your opinion would it be correct that the order according to which the expression "bands" is to be used represents nothing other than an attempt to create an atmosphere on the basis of which ruthlessness and brutality with respect to the "bandit" are more readily permitted than with respect to an enemy recognized by military law?
"A. I think, yes."
A. Yes.
Q. Do you stand by the opinions you gave on that day now, General von Greiffenberg?
A. Yes.
Q. General von Greiffenberg, did you ever hear anything about the Rosenberg unit operating beside the 12th Army in Greece?
PRESIDING JUDGE BURKE: Just a moment, Mr. Fenstermacher. It seems to me in the light of the apparent frankness of this witness in recognition of the answers previously given, it would only be fair to him on this record to include also Question 24 and the answer if it appears there.
MR. FENSTERMACHER: I will be glad to do that, Your Honor.
CROSS EXAMINATION (Continued) BY MR. FENSTERMACHER:
Q. General von Greiffenberg, on the 15th of January, 1947, were you asked this question and did you give this answer on that occasion?
"Q. This is only a theoretical discussion hut nonetheless it has a much greater significance.
"From what period on would one speak of an organized resistance of organized forces in Jugoslavia and Greece? -- You were not in the Balkans, this perhaps is a question which you cannot answer.
"A" No, I cannot answer it."
A. That is correct.
PRESIDING JUDGE BURKE: Thank you...
DR. LATERNSER, did you have some observation you wish to make to the Tribunal?
DR. LATERNSER: I object to the question which was just put last. The prosecutor now asks the witness regarding incidents of the Rosenberg unit in the Balkans. I have not dealt with this in the direct examination and I don't think the prosecutor should be allowed to refer to it during his cross examination.
PRESIDING JUDGE BURKE: Your objection may be technically correct but I think the witness will be able to answer it without harm to himself or without injustice to the defendant.
BY MR. FENSTERMACHER:
Q. General von Greiffenberg, do you recall whether a Rosenberg unit was operating with the 12th Army while you were chief of staff to the 12th Army in 1941?
A. I personally don't remember this incident but I have read it somewhere, I believe, in the indictment or somewhere else. There I first was struck by the term "Rosenberg column" or something like that.
Q. Is it true that Rosenberg units were sent into the occupied territories to plunder the libraries of those countries and to bring back valuable works of art to Germany?
PRESIDING JUDGE BURKE: I am inclined to think from his previous answer the lack of knowledge of this question would be futile, would it not?
MR. FENSTERMACHER: I will try to qualify it, Your Honor.
PRESIDING JUDGE BURKE: Very well.
BY MR. FENSTERMACHER:
Q. General, have you any idea what the Rosenberg units in the occupied countries did?
A. No, I had no knowledge of this. I only know it from rumors.
Q. General, would you look at Exhibit 4-A in Document Book I at page 8 of the English Document Book and at page 7 of the German Document Book? General, this is a latter from Rosenberg to Bormann and if you will look on page 10 of the German Document Book; page 9 of the English Your Honor, you will note under paragraph 2 the last sentence of that paragraph, this sentence.--
DR. LATERNSER: Your Honor, I have just been told that the translation said it was a letter of Rosenberg to Boehme; that would of course create a wrong impression in the witness.
MR. FENSTERMACHER: The question should say a letter from Rosenberg to Bormann.3
PRESIDING JUDGE BURKE: Very well.
BY MR FENSTERMACHER:
Q. If you look at the last sentence of the first full paragraph under paragraph two, it states there: "And on command of General Fieldmarshal List as well as of his deputy general, these men will also be employed---" This is on page 10 I believe at the top of page 10 in the German and in the middle of page 9 in the English Document Book.
It states there: "And on command of General Fieldmarshal List, as well as of his deputy general, those men will also be employed in closest relationship with Security Service SD in Salonika. As you know, Salonika is one of the largest Jewish centers."
PRESIDING JUDGE BURKE: Just a moment before he answers that question. I think it should appear as a part of that question that the defendant Fieldmarshal List has denied knowledge of the statement enclosed in that letter.
BY MR. FENSTERMACHER:
Q. What his Honor said was true General von Greiffenberg. General Feildmarshal List has denied knowledge of the letter and he has also denied what he has given any command with respect to the last sentence which I have just read to you.
A. Yes.
Q. I ask you now whether yon ever heard of an order of Fieldmarshal List regarding the cooperation of the Rosenberg units with the 12th Army?
A. No. I don't know any such order and this letter too I see here for the first time, it's completely new to me.
PRESIDING JUDGE BURKE: The Tribunal will take a recess until 11:15.
( A recess was taken).
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal is again in session.
JUDGE BURKE: You may proceed, Mr. Fenstermacher.
MR. FENSTERMACHER: Thank you, Your Honor.
Q General, I would like you now to look at Exhibit 10, which is on page 38 of the English and page 27 of the German Document book I. General, this is an enclosure to the War Diary of the Commander of the Rear Area 560 and dated Athens, 21 May 1941. It subject is "Commitment of the Offices of Reich Leader Rosenberg in the Army Area. In compliance with the orders of 12th Army, 19 April 1941." Then the code number of the order, "there is in operation, in the area, in the area of the 12th Army Special Unit of Reich Leader Rosenberg which was the task to examine state libraries, archives and offices of the high church authorities, Free lodges and Jewish organizations for political incidents directed against the Reich and of having the material in question confiscated." Does this refresh your recollection with regard to any orders of the 12th Army with respect to the Rosenberg units? Here is states in compliance with the orders of the 12th Army of 19 April 1941?
A I do not remember this order which is being submitted here. It is signed by a Quatermaster, and it went out, at least as far as I can see from this document, by the I-C Counter-intelligence 1031. As I have said previously, I do not know this order and this Special Command Rosenberg and its tasks are not known to me, at least I cannot remember these facts, as I have said previously.
Q Would affairs of the I-C of the 12th Army of April 1941, generally speaking, come to your attention as Chief of Staff?
A Yes, but the Department IC-AO had a special channel. The Ic of an Army or of a military authority was subordinate to the Chief of Staff or the Commander in Chief, negatively and had to submit to him matters of importance, but the Ic-AO had a different position; he reported immediately to the OKW Counter-Intelligence, and for this reason is I have said before, A cannot recollect that such an order, which was signed by an entirely different department, that is by the Quatermaster would reach Field Marshal List, or would reach me.
Q General, do you know whether Field Marshal List had Hitler's confidence at the time he was appointed Commander in Chief of Army Group A in Russia?
A I am not in a position be answer this question, because I do not know this personal relationship between Field Marshal List and the Fuehrer. Since I left the 12th Army, up until the time when Field Marshal List joint our Group, I don't think I have ever not or see him I can't remember.
Q Did you hear anything in Army circles to the effect that Field Marshall List had Keitel's confidence and support?
A No, I didn't hear anything to the effect that the reason Field Marshall List was not sent back to the Southeast as Commander of Chief of Army Group 12 was because he no longer held the confidence of Hitler and Keitel?
A I beg your pardon. I didn't understand that. Sent back to the 12th Army.
Q You will recollect Field marshall List became ill in June 1941, and that he did not return the Southeast after having been replaced by General Kuntze. I am wondering if you ever heard anything in the course of your.....
A No, I was engaged in another campaign, and knew nothing about those matters.
Q Do you believe Field Marshall List would have been named Commander in Chief of Army Group A in Russia if he had not had the confidence of Hitler and Keitel.
A I cannot answer that question offhand. I believe that Field marshal List was regarded as an especially proved and reliable Army leader, a reliable leader who had particular experience in the sphere of mountain warfare, and since this Army Group has as its target the subjection of the Caucasus area, I believe his knowledge of the mountain area and his military experience was a special reason to give him these tasks.
I did not talk to Field Marshal about this, but took it as a matter of course.
Q You mean by mountain experience in Partisan warfare?
A No, I mean by that mountain experience, I mean the fighting of troops in mountainous areas during summer and winter, in high mountains, and since the General was a man who knew about these things he was the proper person to fulfill this very difficult task, and that is what I wanted to express.
Q In July 1942 Field Marshal List took command of Army Group A in Russia, and you were in his Chief of Staff?
A Yes.
Q How many men were subordinate to Field Marshal List as Commander in Chief of Army Group A at that time?
AArmy Group A had subordinate to it at the beginning when they started, four armies, of which however the left one and the right one were dropped after a short time, so altogether two armies remained under its command.
Q About how many men or troops were there?
A I am no longer in a position to make a reliable statement as to how many divisions there were.
Q Could you hazard a guess?
A I am afraid I would give quite an arbitrary number. For instance, if an Army had 10 divisions, that could have meant they had 40 divisions, but that is just a guess, and I have to make that quite clear, I don't know it.
Q Would you say there were over a million men under a million men?
A I don't know.
Q The 11th Army under Manstein was subordinate to Army Group A at tint time, wasn't it? General?
A Yes, for a few days.
Q And is it true, General, that the rear area of an Army is also within the jurisdiction of the Army Commander and that he is held responsible by the OKW for the activities in that area as well as for the a activities at the front?
A The rear army area is subordinate to the Military Commander, that is quite correct.
Q And the commander of the Rear Army area reports to the Army and when an Army Group is involved then the Army in turn reports to the Army Group, is that correct?
A That is front events is reported by the Army to the Army Group, because the Army Group is the most superior operative unit, as we call it. Matters which took place in the rear army area were reported, as far as I recollect by the Commander in the rear Army area, to his Army, or I believe to the Quatermaster General, I believe that is how it was.
Q Could the Army Commander pass on important events which wore occurring in the rear of the Army to the Army Group Commander in order, that the Army Group Commander would Know what was happening in this area?
A Yes, inasmuch as operational maters were concerned and matters, in my opinion were not amongs the tasks of the Commander in Chief of the Army Group. He merely had the operational and tastical leadership of the armies. The situation at the beginning of the Russian campaign was that the Army Group didn't even have a quatermaster or anything like that. It only had a very small operational department.
Q There were conferences, weren't there, between the Army Group Commander his Staff and the subordinate Army Commanders and their staff, at which time the Army Commanders reported events in their rear as well as events in their rear as well events in the front of their area?
A That is quite possible. I don't know how it was discussed in detail.
Q Now, General the Commissar Order when it came down from the OKU and OKH caused quite a lot of consternation in German Military circles between the higher Military office, did it not?
A Yes, that is quite correct.
Q It was discussed to quite a large extent by all higher offices at your various meetings and reporting conferences?
A Yes.
Q Who generally caught the Commissars in the Russian war, were they captured in the course of fighting at the front?
A Yes, when the Commissars were caught they could only have been captured during combat. There was no other possibility. I don't know.
Q And then according to your orders were supposed to be sent by the troops to the rear, and after they were put in a Prisoner of War camp the SD would go into the Prisoner of War camp and pick out the commissars and execute them?
A This famous commissar order was issued before the Russian campaign, but after such a long time I cannot say any longer what details contained in that order, and I now therefore could not answer that question with a definite certainty, in what procedure was prescribed. I don't know that.
Q That order was so severe, and there was so much opposition to it that it was handed down orally wasn't it, General?
A The Army Group of Field Marshall List, as far as I know, never received that order when he took over the command in July, but we had to take over parts of orders regarding a task at the front, because Army Group List was quite a new Army, which had to be created. All other Army files we did not take over, and therefore I believe Field Marshal List never got to sac that order. That is only my belief. At least I do not remember that Field Marshal List discussed this order with me or another member of his staff at any time. I cannot remember this incident, and I don't believe it took place.
Q General, wasn't the Commissar Order handed down only to officers of a general's rank?
A I don't know that. In my opinion the order was issued by the OKW with the OKH, and went in copies to the higher command authorities at the front, as far as I remember this happened at the beginning of the Russian campaign, but as I said before, for many years I haven't seen Field Marshall List. I haven't discussed it with him, and I cannot therefore say what the distribution was in detail.
Q. I am not so much interested now in the relationship between Field Marshal list and the Commissar Order as I am in establishing from your recollection exactly how the OKW and OKH Commissar Order was sent to the troops. I believe I asked you whether you remember that that Commissar Order was supposed to be given to officers of general's rank only. Do you recall that limitation?
A. This limitation I do not remember but, as I said, it is possible. I don't know it
Q. And I wonder if you recall that there was a provision in the order that it should be destroyed and burned after it was received by the army commander?
THE PRESIDENT: Pardon me, Mr. Fenstermacher. Apparently there is some mechanical difficulty on the reporters' receiving set which should be checked. They are not receiving the German on the reporters' set. I think we should await some developments here.
(A recess was taken.)
THE MARSHAL: The court is again in session.
JUDGE BURKE: You may proceed, Mr. Fenstermacher.
BY MR. FENSTERMACHER:
Q. Thank you, Your Honor.
General, before the interruption. I think you answered my last question to the effect that the Commissar Order was only issued to officers of general's rank and was to be passed down by them to their subordinate troops only orally and not in writing. Have I stated your answer correctly?
A. Yes, I said I don't believe that it was this way, but on the exact words which I said I cannot remember.
Q. You don' t recall, General, that the Commissar Order was limited to officers of general rank only?
A. No, I don't.
Q. Did you yourself ever receive the Commissar Order?
A. General Field Marshal vn Book showed it to me when I came to his staff and when he instructed me in my new tasks.
Q. Did Field Marshal List succeed Field Marshal von Bock as commander-in-chief of Army Group A?
A. No, he didn't do that.
Q. What army group did Field Marshal von Bock have at the time he showed you the Commissar Order?
A. The Army Group Middle.
Q. Was the Commissar Order passed on by Field Marshal von Bock?
A. I don't believe that because this Commissar Order was not only given to the army groups but, simultaneously, as far as I remember, immediately to the armies, etc., so that a passing on our part was superfluous.
Q. General, I would like to return for a minute to the time you were chief of staff to Field Marshal List as commander-in-chief of Army Group A. I believe you stated yesterday that you did not believe any commissars were executed within the territorial jurisdiction of Army Group A at the time Field Marshal List commanded that Army Group.
A. I don't believe that. At least I cannot remember any dates or detail of any such matter.
Q. The Crimean Peninsula of Russia was within the territorial jurisdiction of Army Group A at that time, was it not?
A. Within the jurisdiction of the 12th Army the Crimea was.
Q. No, I mean within the territorial jurisdiction of Army Group,A, at the time Field Marshal List commanded Army Group A.
A. At the time when Field Marshal List commanded Army Group A, the 11th Army was subordinated to that army group. That is correct.
Q. And the 11th Army was operating on the Crimean Peninsula at that time?
A. They operated in the Crimean Peninsula and, as far as I remember now, a few days after the operation had started and after Field Marshal List had taken over the command, they were transferred to the area of Petersburg. I don't know the exact date.
Q. General, I would like to show you NOKW-848, which has been introduced into evidence as Prosecution Exhibit 589, You will note, General, that this is an Activity Report for the month of July 1942, of the Secret Field Police Group 647 and you will note also the receipt stamp of the 11th Army I-c or Intelligence Section on the first page of the document indicating that the 11th Army received this report.
A. Yes, I see that.
Q. Now, would you turn to page 4 of that document and to paragraph 3 which appears there. You find this: "The Politruk Kaliba, Joseph, 33 yea.rs old, and the battalion commissar Mahalla, Vassili, 35 years old, were shot by order of I-c of the 42nd Infantry Corps. Both were hiding with the partisan group in the quarries at Kerch and tried to fight their way to the coast to the Reds."
Do you find that?
A. Yes, I found the passage.
Q. Kerch is on the Crimean Peninsula, is it not, General?
A. Yes, indeed.
Q. Now, before I ask you any more questions on this I wonder, would you tell us why you high ranking German generals were opposed to the commissar order?
A. Officers of higher rank -- I am now thinking of Field Marshal von Bock were opposed to the commissar order because it was not a just order and it was against all principles of the German Wehrmacht.
Q. It was against the principles of the German Wehrmacht because political commissars were fully dressed and were the same as any other member of the Russian army. Isn't that true?
A. Yes, it is correct.
Q. And this order to execute political commissars was in effect an order to kill a prisoner of war, was it not?
A. I believe it could be put like that. I don't know.
Q. Did you, General von Greiffenberg, ever receive any information to the effect that the Politruk and the Commissar Were executed on orders of the I-c or Intelligence Office of the 42nd Infantry Corps sometime in July 1942?
A. No, I do not know that.
Q. Do you know what a Politruk is, General?
A. Yes, I know the German explanation for that word which was issued at that time.
Q. What is the explanation?
A. That a Politruk is an agent of the Russian government or party who had been commissioned with indoctrinating the troops with the Communist idea and Communist principles any plane where he appeared and where he was active. I believe that was just the rough description.
Q. He was a regular member of the Russian army, the same as a political commissar except that he was attached to a lower unit than the political commissar was attached to. Isn't that correct?
A. I believe -- yes, that is correct. I assume that is correct.
Q. General, I believe you stated yesterday that sometime in August 1942 there was a difference of opinion between Field Marshal List and Hitler regarding a particular troop operation.
A. Yes, I believe you mean the fight for the Caucasus and the Caucasus Mountains. That is correct.
Q. That difference of opinion with Hitler was only of a tactical nature, was it not? It didn't have any other implications.
A. The difference of opinion between the Commander in Chief and Hitler was of a tactical nature, naturally.
Q. Do you know whether it had any other implications -- I mean by that, whether it represented a disagreement by Field Marshal List with the way Hitler was waging the war and the methods he was requiring?
A. The rejection of Hitler's methods were so clearly expressed by Field Marshal List on every possible occasion, that that was only one further fact, there can be no doubt about it.
Q. This particular difference of opinion was tactical and only tactical.
A. This one was of a tactical nature but at the same time opposition against this interference came from above in a general Wehrmacht affair.
Q. Do you know, General, whether Field Marshal List was ever bothered or annoyed by the Party after he returned to Garmisch-Partenkirchen following his resignation as Commander in Chief of Army Group S.
A. I cannot say that in detail hut I believe that Field Marshal List lived there in a very retired manner and that he was not liked by Party circles after what happened at all.
Q. Was he disliked by Party circles before he resigned or only after he resigned?
A. I don' t know that in detail but I think that Field Marshal List was never particularly well liked by the Party and even less was he supported by them on the contrary.
Q. Would you be surprised, General, to learn that Field Marshal Keitel said on Field Marshal List's service record in April 1942 that Field Marshal List enjoyed the unbounded confidence of the Fuehrer? Is that surprising to you?
A. I don't believe that. I couldn't imagine that.
Q. You don't believe that Keitel could make such a statement in April 1942?
A. I believe that with clear conscience he could not have made such a statement about Field Marshal List, according to my knowledge of Field Marshal List.
Q. Would you look, General von Greiffenberg, at Exhibit 3 in Document Book I, which is at page 4 of the English and page 4 of the German document book?
This is Field Marshal List's service record -- and would you look under the section, "War Time Service Record " under 10 September 1942?
"He resigned as Commander in Chief Army Group and is at disposal of of the Fuehrer."
Do you know what that "disposal of the Fuehrer" means?
A. In my opinion, that means the same as it means for every officer who had retired from their military service or from their position temporarily. They were as a matter of principle members of the so-called "Fuehrer Reserve." That as, the personnel office was in a position to dispose of this Fuehrer Reserve. That has nothing to do with Hitler personally.
Q. Was Field Marshal List's resignation as Commander in Chief of Army Group A done voluntarily on his part?
A. Whether it was voluntary on his part?
Q. Yes.
A. Yes, on the basis of the discussion with Field Marshal Keitel he himself throw down his command post because he could not longer bear the situation. That is quite certain.
Q. Now, would you look at the -- still on page 4, I believe, of your document book there, page 5 of the English document book. Under "Recommendations" you will see there is a. statement by Field Marshal von Rundstedt and there follows this statement by Field Marshal Keitel on the 24th of April 1942. That is before Field Marshal List became Commander in Chief of Army Group A. It states:
"Commander in Chief 12th Army and Wehrmacht Commander Southeast. Most highly proven. Enjoys the unlimited confidence of the Fuehrer."
Was that the general opinion of Field Marshal List a.t that time in the circles in which you were acquainted?
A. I believe that Field Marshal List and we were not of the opinion that he enjoyed the unlimited confidence of the Fuehrer. I don't believe that.
Q. General, I believe you stated yesterday that you considered Field
Q. General, I believe you stated yesterday that you considered Field Marshal List a man of great strength of character. Do you believe that anyone could make Field Marshal List do anything which Field Marshal List didn't want to do?
A. I cannot answer that question. I don't know how you mean it. Could you ask it again please?
Q. I mean do you consider Field Marshal List a man of enough strength of character to defy persons with whom he disagreed rather than do something which he didn't want to do?
A. I believe, I am convinced and we all were convinced that Field Marshal List was a. man of great strength of character and we believe that he would take the consequences. Therefore, I believe and we all believed that he gave up his commander in chief s position because it was impossible for him to work under the prevailing circumstances.
Q. You consider --
PRESIDING JUDGE BURKE: Just a moment.
MR. FENSTERMACHER: May I ask just one more question on this point, your Honor?
PRESIDING JUDGE BURKE: Yes.
Q. Do you feel that Field Marshal List would not have hesitated to stand up to Hitler if he disagreed with what Hitler was asking him to do?
PRESIDING JUDGE BURKE: I think you asked the identical question yesterday, Mr. Fenstermacher.
MR. FENSTERMACHER: Very well, your Honor. That's right.
DR. SAUTER (Counsel for defendants Lanz and von Geitner): Your Honors, General von Geitner feels so unwell that he is not in a position to follow the proceedings. I have here an English medical certificate of the prison doctor where it is confirmed that it can be expected that he will have to leave the courtroom and go back to the prison. His state got worse during the morning today and I would ask that the defendant von Geitner may be excused from the session this afternoon.