A The answer to this question would mean that I would have to know Serbs who during the first weeks were friendly and that I later talked to them again when they were under the impression of later events. I cannot judge any such immediate change of opinion, because I did not encounter the same people in both situations.
Q Doctor, you are an export on the Balkan people, how they feel, what makes them tick, how they react on various situations, I ask you, didn't the severe reprisal measures which the Germans took, I mean by that the burning of villages, execution of hostages and the arbitrary arrest of Jew's and Gypsies and the collections of innocent victims into the concentration camps; didn't that increase the resistance which the German troops faced?
A To an earlier question I have answered that, I knew nothing about concentration camps or about the seizure of Jews and Gypsies. I cannot draw any conclusion from an occurrence which is unknown to me.
Q Doctor, isn't it true that the shortage of troops and the fact that most of the occupation troops were old men; wasn't that important in connection with the occupation of the Balkan countries?
A It is a difficult question to answer, what number of troops would have been sufficient in the Balkans and what number would have been insufficient. At first it was very difficult to guess how many troops would be necessary to dominate what area, because that area was inhabitated by a population the attitude of which could not possibly be estimated. I don't know whether this is correct, but compared for instance with a normal German population those troops would have been more than sufficient to carry out a complete demobilization, but a population which lived in those mountain recluses area and had such a fighter temperament, with such a population it was a miracle to estimate the necessary strength of the troops with certainty.
Q. You don't believe that the reasons for which the German troops enforced severe reprisal measures was in order to make up for a lack of troops?
A. I consider this a question which I cannot answer post festum.
Q. Would you repeat that please.
A. I consider that a question I cannot answer post festum.
Q. Doctor, do you believe that the preachings of Hitler to the National Socialists regarding the inferiority of the Balkan people and the superiority of the German nation had anything to do with the measures taken against the population of Greece and Yugo Slavia?
A. I believe that the leadership of the German Wehrmacht in the Southeast was completely free of any consideration of Nazi ideology when they considered what measures they had to take.
Q. You don't believe they had to enforce the orders which they received from Berlin?
A. That is a matter of course, that a subordinate authority has to carry out the orders of his superior leaders.
Q. Well, you are familiar no doubt with the type of orders which Hitler and Keitel issued regarding the inferiority of Balkan people. The bestiality of the Serbian race, generally, do you believe that the Southeast Command need not have executed orders of that nature?
A. The translation was not quite clear to me. I do not remember that an OKW or Reich Government order or decree had for its reason the inferiority of the population in that area. Independant of that, there was in any case the duty and obligation on the part of the military leadership in southeastern Europe to execute given orders. The question to what extent a given order is a general order, which can then be adapted to the conditions there, can only be decided from case to case.
Q. You never heard of any orders of Hitler or by OKW which said in effect that the Balkan people are used to cruel and harsh methods, therefore, you must adopt those kind of measures in dealing with them?
A. That they applied cruel methods, I do not doubt for a moment that was reported in some orders and mentioned there. If in my previous answer or in an answer before that I said that the orders from the O.K.W. and the instructions from foreign office did not give as a motive the inferiority of the population in the Balkans then this does not exclude that such an order might contain a sentence like "considering the well known cruel methods of fighting harsh measures are to be applied."
Q. Doctor, in American we have an expression which says in effect that "You can catch more flies with sugar than with vinegar," looking back on your experience in the Balkans would you say that the occupation of Greece and Yugo Slavia would have been more successful if the methods used had been those of kindness, sympathy and understanding rather than reprisal methods and the nailed fist?
A. That is a conditional question which can in practise not be answered if one knows the conditions in the Balkans. I don't mean that I am afraid of the answer to the question and I do not hesitate to give a guess, but it remains merely a guess so, that for instance some other day I might compare facts differently than I would today, and I don't want to submit such a vague testimony here.
Q. Doctor, perhaps you can identify some of the following persons for me. Do you know who Kwaternik was? K-w-a-t-e-r-n-i-k.
A. Would you please repeat that?
Q. K-w-a-t-e-r-n-i-k.
A. Kwaternik, he was a Croatian, I believe there were two Kwaternik's. One of them was the decisive leader of the Domobranew and he played a decisive part in the Croatian Ministry of War.
Q. Who was King of Yugo Slavia prior to Peter?
A. Prior to Peter of Yugo Slavia -- Prior to Peter of Yugo Slavia?
Q. Yes.
A. Before that Yugo Slavia was Serbia.
Q. Do you know when Peter became King?
A. No, I don't know that.
Q. You don't know who was King before him?
A. The question of dynasty concerned me at the time I worked there only to the extent that I saw a rough outline of the family tree and looked at it and I found out that seven or eight murders of Kings had occurred in a century and a half, that the period of reigh of Serbian kings was almost a special study because one king was usually living abroad while the other king deputized for him and carried by for some party or the other. The Karageorgevitch went against the Branovic and as far as my studies were concerned the question of dynasty was practically immaterial.
Q. You don't think that was at all relevant to the understanding of the Balkan people; the names of the Kings and periods during which they reigned?
A. In my opinion, it is as unimportant in the Balkans as in hardly any other area.
Q. Who was the great Croat leader after the first World war the first World War?
A. After the first World war the Croatians had in no single person seen a unified leadership. The splitting up of the Croatian interests was so manifold that I can not name one individual person as the leader of the Croatians.
Q. You don't think Macek dominated Croatian politics after the first World war?
A. I believe that Macek never had the strength to give Croatia the position of a state in any way but he had to succumb to the Serbs.
Q. Do you know who King Alexander, II was?
A. King or Emporer?
Q. King.
A. King Alexander II of Serbia is known to me alright, but his part in Serbian history is in my opinion of secondary importance.
Q. Does the name of Rhallis mean anything to you?
A. No.
Q. You never heard of Rhallis in connection with the Greek government that was in power during the occupation by the German troops in Greece?
A. Will you please repeat the name?
Q. Rhallis - R-h-a-l-l-i-s.
A. Concerning the Greal Eam and Edes Movements and concerning the leading men in the Greek partisan activities, I have comparatively little knowledge because I was foremost interested in the Serbian Croatian areas, which I made the most important part of my testimony.
Q. You don't consider yourself an expert on Greece?
A. No.
Q. When did you leave the Balkans?
A. I left the area of various times, I flew to Vianna, to Leignitz and in January 1945, I believe I worked with the Staff of the C-I-C Southeast for the last time.
Q. When did you leave Belgrade?
A. I cannot name the exact date because I changed my residence so frequently. I did not leave Belgrade in connection with the evacuation of that town with the staff but at that time I was in Vienna and I then returned to the staff in Zagreb.
Q. Would you say you left Belgrade in August or later in the fall or earlier in the summer?
A. I cannot name these dates exactly. May I mention at this point that I have a very bad memory for figures and for dates, especially for a historian. I am interested in the problems of history, of the course of history, and I like to get at the root and the causes of the thing without having to be bound to dates and dated events.
To put it differently. The psychological nucleous of a certain situation is of more interest to me than the chronological events.
Q. Do you have a good memory for national characteristics and racial temperaments, Doctor? You don't get those mixed up.
A. I believe I am fairly certain in that respect.
Q. In any event, Doctor, you were only in the Balkans from February 1944 to some time at least prior to October 1944 because that is when the German troops evacuated.
A. Yes, I have forgot the figure now. What were the dates you gave -- as of what date?
Q. I suggested from about February 1944 until certainly some time prior to October 1944.
A. February and March 1944 was the time when I received the commission and I believe that for the last time I left Zagreb around February 1945.
Q. But you had left Belgrade at least earlier than October 1944.
A. Yes, to go to Vienna but I cannot tie myself down to that date in October. There were so many journeys to and from that I cannot remember at what exact date I left one place or the other.
Q. You became an expert on the Balkans after a few months down there in 1944 after looking at all the files which were available to you and after a previous background of having studied European history.
PRESIDING JUDGE BURKE: I think he has answered that two or three or four times. I don't think we ought to pursue it further.
MR. FENSTERMACHER: Very well, your Honor.
Q. How, Doctor, just a few questions with regard to General Foertsch. Did you ever read anything which General Foertsch wrote?
A. Well, there was one essay, the title of which I do not remember at the moment. It was a paper concerning -- it could have been entitled according to the meaning, "The Spirit of the German Armed Forces." It was an essay concerning the character of a German officer, the way an officer ought to be, at cetera, but I don't remember any details.
Q. Did you get the impression in reading that essay that there was a lot of National Socialist idealogy contained in it?
A. I don't believe that.
Q. Do you consider Foertsch to have been an extremely influential person at Southeast Headquarters?
A. He was, as a person well familiar with the Balkans, naturally the man who know best how to clarify the existing problems.
Q. Do you believe that his opinions were highly regarded by the commanders under whom he served?
PRESIDING JUDGE CARTER: I don't know how the witness can be expected to answer that question.
MR. FENSTERMACHER: Very well, I will try it another way, Your Honor.
Q. Do you get the impression from your experience, at Supreme Commander Southeast Headquarters, that Foertsch exercised a dominating influence on the policy of the German Armed Forces in Greece and Jugoslavia?
A. That would have not been in accordance with his position to have a dominating influence on the German policy in Southeastern Europe. He lacked the means and official position to do that.
Q. Yes but, Doctor, you have testified that Foertsch was very intelligent. He was considered an expert on the Balkans. He had been down there and had a lot of experience. Do you not think that played a large part with respect to the way his opinions and judgments were regarded by his commanders?
A. You asked after his measures. Measures of General Foertsch are not known to me.
Q. What I meant to say is, wasn't it true that by virtue of Foertsch's experience in the Balkans and by virtue of his superior intelligence that he was in a position to exercise a dominating influence upon the commanders under whom he served?
A. The decisive influence goes from the higher to the lower echelons and not the other way around. The basic instructions come from the OEM to the Military Commander and all influence of the Chief to the Commander up is only of a secondary nature in this process started by the OEM. Besides I would ask you to consider my position with the Armed Forces Commander Southeast, that I was there in the rank of a First Lieutenant, I carried out a commission of a military-scientific nature and I can have no judgment how a Chief of Staff affects his military commander.
Q. Did you know Field Marshal Weichs?
A. Not personally.
Q. Which of the defendants do you know personally?
A. I don't know any one of the defendants personally except General Foertsch.
Q. Do you feel any particular loyalty towards General Foertsch?
A. Through discussions with General Foertsch I have gained the impression that General Foertsch has a gift which is not generally apparent in an officer. General Foertsch has a special gift to regard problems objectively. I have felt how General Foertsch approached the difficulties, I might say with a kind of a psychological method, the entanglements of the whole area, in order to disentangle them. If I may give an example, there is the proverb of the Gordion Knot. Alexander cut through it. General Foertsch gave me the impression that he felt the personal need to disentangle that knot.
Q. Foertsch was rather a unique personality, wasn't he? He was very highly regarded by his commanders?
A. I do not know how he was regarded with his military commanders.
MR. FENSTERMACHER: I have no further questions, your Honors.
DR. LATERNSER: Your Honors, there is one point which I would like to clarify.
REDIRECT EXAMINATION BY DR. LATERNSER (Counsel for defendants List and von Weichs)
Q. Dr. Ibbeken, you were asked by the prosecution about your attitude and about your political activities during Hitler's time. I now have the question to put to you: has this activity already been examined by British authorities?
A. All statements which I have made regarding my political past I have also made in greater detail to a denazification chamber in the British Zone. This procedure is now completed and the competent control authority of the British Zone has decided that I can carry out my present occupation and that they have no objection.
DR. LATERNSER: I have no further questions to the witness but I would like to make a motion. Your Honors, I know that the translation of the answers of the witness has been very difficult and I would like to submit the following to the Tribunal. I have checked during the second part of the morning session the translation of the cross examination and I found that partly the translation did not keep up and partly it was not correct in sense. I would, therefore, move that the English transcript for the second part of the morning session should be made on the basis of the German transcript -- that is, as proper translation of the German transcript into the English language. For the second morning session. While the cross examination was going on I did not want to interrupt and I think that with this motion I am safeguarding the rights of my clients sufficiently.
MR. FENSTERMACHER: We have no objection to that, of course, your Honors, except that I believe if there is going to be any comparison done it ought to be not with the German transcript but rather with the sound track.
DR. LATERNSER: Yes, that is agreeable to me.
PRESIDENT JUDGE CARTER: I am sure if it is agreeable to counsel it is agreeable to the Tribunal to have it done that way.
DR. LATERNSER: I have no further questions to put then.
MR. FENSTERMACHER: May I ask just one more question, your Honors?
RECROSS EXAMINATION BY MR. FENSTERMACHER:
Q. Dr. Ibbeken, what is your present occupation?
A. I am in charge of an institute for tuberculosis and I am in the administration of that institute.
PRESIDING JUDGE CARTER: Any further redirect examination by any of the defense? If not, the witness will be excused.
DR. LATERNSER: Your Honors, I would like to alter the already mentioned sequence of the examination of witnesses and I would like to call the witness von Sydow who has for some time been approved by the Tribunal. I will make that examination very short because the witness has to leave Nurnberg tonight for professional reasons and I would like to take that into consideration. I am now calling the witness von Sydow.
PRESIDING JUDGE CARTER: The witness will be sworn.
I swear by God, the Almighty and Omniscient, that I will speak the pure truth and will withhold and add nothing.
(The witness repeated the oath).
PRESIDING JUDGE CARTER: Your may be seated.
DIRECT EXAMINATION BY DR. LATERNSER (Counsel for defendants List and von Weichs)
Q. Will you please give the Tribunal your full name?
A. Friedrich Adolf von Sydow.
Q. Will you please spell your surname?
A. S y d o w .
Q. When and where were you born?
A. On the 17th of July 1891 in Berlin.
Q. Were you a major in the German armed forces?
A. Yes.
Q. Herr von Sydow, I ask you to wait with the answer of my question until the question is translated -that is, make a short pause in between.
Did you participate in the campaign against Jugoslavia?
A. Yes.
Q. In what capacity?
A. I was commander of a security battalion.
Q. And where were you when the campaign ended?
A. In Kosmitrovica Pristina.
Q. What task did your battalion have after the campaign was concluded?
A. The Securing of military installations.
Q. And in what area, quite generally speaking, were the units of your battalion stationed?
A. The staff and two companies were in Uzice. One company was in Kosmitrovica and one company was in Sabac. One company was in Semendria, later Pancevo, and one company in Semlin.
Q. Mr. von Sydow, when did the first major sabotage act occur?
A. Roughly about August in Semendria.
Q. And what was concerned in this occurrence? What happened?
A. A Serbian ammunition depot was blasted.
Q. Who carried out that attack?
A. Partisans.
Q. What were the consequences of this attack?
A. Losses of our own troops and of the civilian population, destruction of houses.
Q. After that attack, were reprisal measures carried out,
A. No.
Q. How do you know that so exactly?
A. Shortly after the blasting of the ammunition depot I personally talked to the then military commander, General von Schroeder and to his chief of staff.
Q. What was the attitude of the civilian population after the attack?
A. They were frightened but quiet.
Q. What did the mayor do after the attack?
A. The mayor sent a letter of thanks for the fact that the men of the company had helped rescuing the civilians who were buried on the ruins.
Q. When was that attack which we just discussed?
A. In my opinion, it was in August 1941.
Q. What then was the further situation in August 1941?
A. Isolated partisan attacks in the area of Valjevo, Krupanj.
Q. Where was your battalion at that time?
A. In uzica.
Q. To whom were you subordinate?
A. At that moment we were subordinate to the military Commander of Serbia.
Q. What orders did you receive on the basis of this partisan situation?
A. The units stationed in Uzica were to transfer to Kraljevo.
Q. Did you do that then?
A. Yes, indeed.
Q. What happened when you transferred to Kraljevo?
A. Up to Pocega there was no moving up on the part of the partisans. After Pocega up until Cacak there were surprise attacks, amongst them, before Cacak, one from a monastery.
Q. When you retreated you were shot at from a monastery?
A. Yes.
Q. What reprisals were taken against the monastery?
A. None.
Q And where did you retread to?
A We retreated towards Kraljevo.
Q What report did you receive after your arrival in Kraljevo? K-r-a-l-j-e-v-o?
A In Milanovac there was supposed to be a company of a security battalion which was cut off and which was supposed to be relieved.
Q What did you do subsequent to that order?
A The Commander of the Sector Kraljevo gave me the order to carry out that relief action.
Q The company was cut off in Milanovac, if I understood you correctly?
A Yes, in Milanovac.
Q Did you then march towards Milanovac?
A Yes.
Q How was the situation there?
A We arrived in Milanovac in the morning through the western exit. At first we established a following.
Q I believe you can talk a little faster.
A We first established a following. Apparently Milanovac had been evacuated of all civilian population. We secondly established on the market place, there were nailed three or four German soldiers on the doors of barns and houses.
Q Herr von Sydow, were these soldiers still alive?
A Three were still alive. Their palms were turned up an iron nails were driven through them. When we further marched through the town up to the quarters of the company, which was an old Serbian barrack, we found further five or maybe 7 nailed soldiers, of whom about four or five were still alive. In a barn we found four dead soldiers.
Q What did you do on the basis of these findings?
A We took these nine nailed people down immediately and started an investigation and searched the town. And we buried the fallen soldiers.
Q At that time did you carry out reprisal measures of any kind?
A No.
Q How did the band situation develop later on?
A There were four partisan districts clearly recognizable. The first one was around Rudnik; the second one was around Cacak; and the third one was around Novibazar; and the fourth one was around Lochnica.
Q And where were you with your unit, or with your staff?
A In Kraljevo.
Q What effect did this band situation have on the situation in Kraljevo?
A The partisans attacked now on several occasions. They had four big guns and two tanks.
Q What kind of tanks were they?
A Hotchkiss. That is, probably Serbian weapons -Serbian tanks.
Q At that time did the civilian population of Kraljevo till its fields?
A It was no longer possible to till the fields.
Q What did you do to make it possible?
A Since the food situation of the civilian population became very difficult, the Section Commander permitted about one hundred woman to till the fields South of Morava and to harvest them. That was done in the following manner. Three clergymen, with raised crucifixes and very few German guards, wont out to the fields. After a short while the people came back because they were shot at by partisans. One of the clergymen was wounded.
Q What was your commission a short while after that?
AAllegedly on a highway North-West of Kragujevac there was a truck and a civilian car had been attacked and we were supposed to find out what had happened.
Q Did you go to the spot where the attack took place?
A Yes, indeed.
Q. What did you find there?
A One of the soldiers was dead, three or four men were there, three of whom were alive and were castrated while still conscious.
Q You yourself saw that?
A Yes, indeed.
Q I want to add something to the incident which you described in Milanovac. Did you personally see that German soldiers were nailed to doors of barns while alive?
A Yes, indeed.
Q Now, what order did you receive on the basis of the occurrence which you described last? That is the story of the truck?
A I beg your pardon?
Q On the occasion of this occurrence were reprisal measures ordered?
AAt the occasion of the officers' mooting in Kraljevo it was announced that as a result of the occurrences reprisal measures were to be taken.
Q Just a minute, Herr von Sydow. How high were the own losses?
A You mean in the whole time of Kraljevo?
Q Yes.
A You mean in the occupation of Kraljevo? Three hundred men.
Q Now what order did you receive concerning reprisal measures?
A Reprisal measures were to be carried out in the ratio of one to ten.
Q Who was commissioned with the carrying out of these reprisal measures?
A The Commander of the Sector.
Q And how many persons were actually executed?
A Roughly three hundred.
Q How do you know that.
A From an officers' meeting.
Q What was reported to higher headquarters.
AAccording to the information which we had the actual figure of three hundred.
Q Was this figure regarded as too low?
A That is not known to me.
Q For how long were you in Kraljevo?
AApproximately six to eight weeks.
Q Until when was that?
A From the end of September, beginning of October, up until about the end of November.
Q During that time were any further shootings carried out?
A Not that I know of.
Q Where were the German victims buried?
A In a cemetery, roughly about one kilometer northwest of Kraljevo.
Q And where were the Serbs who were shot buried?
A Near a factory in Kraljevo.
Q Can that today be still checked?
A Yes.
Q At that time were woman shot?
A I do not know anything about that.
Q We have here a report, according to which in Kraljevo about that time, 1786 Serbs and 19 women were allegedly shot. That is on the 17th of October. Were you, at that time, in Kraljevo?
A Yes.
Q And how many were shot during that time?
A Roughly three hundred.
Q How long did you remain in the Balkans?
A Up till November, 1941.
Q And where did you go then?
A I came to the Tank Troop School in Wuensdorf for a training course.
PRESIDING JUDGE CARTER: We will take our afternoon recess at this time.
(A recess was taken.)
THE MARSHALL: Persons in the Courtroom will please find their seats.
The Tribunal is again in session.
DIRECT EXAMINATION BY DR. LATERNSER:
Q Herr von Sedow, you have just said before the recess that you -- I think it was 1942 -- came to Wuensdorf, and then what else did you do during the war?
A In 1942, for a time I was commander of an anti-tank and reconnaissance battalion in the West. And then I was commander of a heavy anti-tank battalion in the East and combat group commander in the East until July, 1943.
Q What happened then?
A In July, 1943, a report was given about me from a company office to the effect that from the 30th of April, 34, according to a court martial ruling I was dismissed from the army because of insufficient National Socialist attitude.
Q Then how long were you out of office?
A Until the 13th of February, 1945.
Q And then you were employed again?
A Yes.
Q When?
A On the 13th of February, 1945, at the instigation of Panzer Army High Command III, through the competent army district command Goerlitz I was called up again.
Q And then how were you used - in which position?
A First of all South of Guger (?) as Sector Commander, in the 41st Tank Corps, and then until the end as Combat Group Commander in the 48th Tank Corps.
Q Now a last question. During the war, did you got any decorations?