Maybe not all of them succeeded in getting through this mountain territory. Maybe some of them remained there.
Q: And how was the sending home of the Greek soldiers carried out?
A: As far as the troops could do this the Greek soldiers were given every facility, and they were put on a baggage vehicle, which went along with the columns.
Q: And were the officers treated in the same way?
A: The officers were released with arms.
Q: When was Athens occupied?
A: Athens was occupied on the 27 April.
Q: And then how did the Peloponnesus campaign come to end?
A: I would like to repeat it all happened after the signing of the capitulation, and while the soldiers of the Greek army were already in the process of being released. Violent fightings was still going on with British troops around the Thermopylae positions. After the entry into Athens, motorized forces, Panzer divisions went via Corinthian Isthmus toward the Peloponnesus, and these forces smashed the British troops which were still there, and those who could no longer get into the ships were taken prisoner. These were the last group in the south of Peloponnesus and there were about 10,000 British.
DR. LATERNSER: Your Honor, may I ask one more question to finish this chapter? I can be finished at once.
Q: What were the losses of the German side and the other side?
A: On both sides they were very small.
JUDGE CARTER: The Tribunal will recess until 9:30 tomorrow morning.
(Whereupon at 4:30 a recess was taken)
Official Transcript of Military Tribunal V, Case VII in the matter of the United States of America against Wilhelm List et al, defendants, sitting at Nurnberg, Germany, on 17 September 1947, 0930, Justice Wennerstrum presiding.
THE MARSHAL: Persons in the Courtroom will please find their seats.
The Honorable, the Judges of Military Tribunal V.
Military Tribunal V is now in session. God save the United States of America and this Honorable Tribunal.
There will be order in the Court.
THE PRESIDENT: Mr. Marshall, will you ascertain if all the defendants are present in the Court room?
THE MARSHAL: May it please your Honor, all the defendants are present in the Court room.
THE PRESIDENT: You may proceed, Dr. Laternser.
DIRECT EXAMINATION (Continued) WILHELM LIST BY DR. LATERNSER:
Q Field Marshall, yesterday we stopped at the end of the Balkan campaign. Have you anything to add to your testimony of yesterday?
A. I think that I said a name wrongly at the end, I said that the British were taken prisoner at the south end of the Peloponnesus and I said the name of the place was Kalabakki. The name really is Kalamata.
Q. Where was your headquarters at the end of the Balkan campaign?
A. For a few days in Athens and than in a little place a few kilometers away from Athens called Kuphisia.
Q. Why didn't you remain in Athens?
A. Actually we weren't supposed to go into Athens at all because at that time Hitler wanted to reserve Athens for the Italians.
Q. What were your tasks at this time? That is, at the end of the Balkan campaign?
A. At the end of the Balkan campaign, my main task was the security against attack, against unrest. In addition, supply for the transports, securing of communication services and transport system.
Q. And what was the situation at that time in Greece?
A. The situation in Greece was at that time completely peaceful.
Q. Which troops were at your command for the execution of the occupation?
A. At the beginning of the occupation, I still had those troops left over from the campaign. These troops were slowly drawn out and taken away from Groece and that part which finally I wouldn't say finally but for the next period were to remain in Greece.
Q. And what remained to you when the forces were withdrawn?
A. When the forces were withdrawn, the general command 18th Mauntain Corps remained and the two Mountain Divisions, the 164th Division, Infantry Regiment 125, and at the beginning , parts of the 5th Panzer Division and then some security forces.
Q. I have here in this chart which we already submitted yesterday to the Tribunal for information, that is chart LI-150 which I will submit to you to look at. It is the second chart, your Honors.
Is this chart correct?
A. Yes, it is correct.
Q. And what does it portray?
A. It portrays the command at that time and the troops and the command authorities which were at that time subordinated to me.
Q. What do you mean by "at that time"?
A. By "that time" I mean the period after the end of the Balkan campaign when the occupation started. At the end of the fighting, after which the other general commanders had already been withdrawn from the Greek area.
Q. When, approximately, did this situation arise--only approximately?
A. Well, this happened during May.
Q. The forces available at that time -- were they sufficient for the execution of the occupation?
A. These forces were sufficient at that time because, of course, as was natural for a campaign, one needs so many more forces as long as the enemy forces were still undefeated. When one saw that the enemy was peaceful at that time in Greece, then these forces were sufficient for the occupation, for the security and to maintain peace and order.
Q. May I have the chart back?
Which order was issued at that time?
A. Then the order came, Order No. 29.
DR. LATERNSER: Your Honors, this is Exhibit No. 9 in English Document Book No. 1, page 33 - 37, in the German Document Book 1, page 24.
THE PRESIDENT: Will you kindly repeat that again, Doctor?
DR. LATERNSER: I am now referring to Exhibit No. 9. This is in English Document Book No. 1, pages 33 to 37. Might I point out, your Honors, that during the examination of Field Marshal List, I will refer frequently to Document Book I to V and No. XXIV.
BY DR. LATERNSER:
Q. Field Marshal, have you looked at Exhibit No. 9?
A. Yes.
Q. According to this order, who was responsible for the security of the country?
A. According to this order, the security in the Greek zone was the responsibility of the Italians.
Q. What was the relation to the Italian offices?
A. The relation to the Italian offices was -- as it is usually between allies -- correct, with the Italian Commander in Chief at that time I had a rather loose but comradely relationship and the mutual meetings were relatively few.
Q. And was there relation of subordination between the German troops and the Italian officers?
A. No, not at all.
Q. Which area of Greece was occupied by the German troops?
A. The German troops occupied an area around Salonika, and around the port of Piraeus with its district and a few islands. Later on, Crete was added. At this time, this wasn't yet in the hands of the Germans.
Q. And which area was occupied by the Italians?
A. The Italians occupied the rest of Greece.
Q. And who occupied Athens?
A. For troop billeting, Athens was not to be used by us.
Q. Field Marshal, I asked you who occupied Athens?
A. The Italians. Also for the German offices a German local command was set up there.
Q. Were no German troops in Athens?
A. No, no troops.
Q. What was in Athens?
A. There were a number of staffs in Athens and at that time they became more and more.
Q. What about the subordination of the Air Force, under your command.
A. The Air Force had to carry out the operational war, independently and according to the immediate orders they were direct orders of the Commander-in-chief of the Luftwaffe to whom they were subordinate.
Q. And what about the navy?
A. The navy was in a similar position and the coastal defenses, too, was to be a matter for the navy.
Q. Did AOK-12 have anything to do with the military administration?
A. No.
Q. To whom was this subordinate?
A. The Military Administration in the Greek zone was subordinate to the Italians, and the order went so far that I was instructed to refuse any mediation activities by the Greeks.
Q. When you speak about orders, do you mean Exhibit No. 9?
A. Yes, Exhibit No. 9.
Q. At that time what was your relation to the Commander of Serbia?
A. The Military Commander of Serbia was at that time quite independent and was subordinate directly to the Commander-in-Chief of the Army.
Q. Then you had no official connection with him?
A. No.
Q. One last question with regard to Exhibit No. 9. Did this order which is contained in Exhibit 9 change anything in your position which you had during the Balkan campaign?
A. As Commander-in-Chief of the Army, no.
Q. And what about the island of Crete at that time?
A. The island of Crete was at that time not conquered.
Q. And when it was captured?
A. When it was captured, it remained first of all under the Air Force. The Air Force had to carry out independently the operation of capturing Crete.
Q. When, approximately, was the capture of Crete?
A. In the last day of May as far as I remember.
Q. Then it was like this at that period? You had neither Serbia nor southern Greece nor Crete -- these three places were not subordinate to you?
A. Yes.
Q. And how long did this situation remain so?
A. This situation remained like this until the next order from the fuehrer. This was fuehrer order No. 31 in which the Wehrmacht Commander Southeast was created.
DR. LATERNSER: Your Honor, we will now refer to Exhibit No. 15. This is in English Document Book No. 1, page 55 to 59, and in the German document book I, page 38 to 43.
BY DR. LATERNSER:
Q. Field Marshal, why were these titles mentioned here? What were you named in this order?
A. I was appointed Wehrmacht Commander Southeast.
Q. Did you remain Commander-in-Chief of the 12 Army.
MR. DENNEY: I believe what was asked was what was he named in this order, and I believe that the witness replied "Wehrmachts befehlshaber Suedost" and it was translated by the interpreter as Field Marshal Commander Southeast, which is not the proper translation.
DR. LATERNSER: May I ask how it was translated?
THE INTERPRETER: It was translated Wehrmacht Commander Southeast.
THE PRESIDENT: Does that clarify the situation?
DR. LATERNSER: I think so, yes.
Q. Did you remain commander in chief of the 10th Army?
A. Yes.
Q. Which powers did you receive through this appointment as Wehrmacht commander Southeast, quite generally?
A. The chief powers --- the most important task was the unified defense of that part of Serbia occupied by the German troops and also that part of Greece occupied by the German troops, including the Greek island, against attacks and unrest. In addition, the security of supply and transport.
Q. Field Marshall intermediate question. Since this contained in the order, please only state quite briefly what the tasks were at that time because the text of the order is in front of the Tribunal.
A. The chief tasks I have already stated.
MR. DENNEY: If your Honors please, I think it is apparent that the witness is reading from the document. The document is in evidence. He is being asked what his duties were. There is no objection to his refreshing his recollection from the document, but I certainly object to his reading the document into the record.
DR. LATERNSER: Your Honor, before this objection was raised, I had already pointed this out to the witness for these simples matters usually knows by heart.
THE PRESIDENT: The objection will be overruled. The witness however should keep in mind the suggestion made by his counsel.
Q. (By Dr. Laternser) Field Marshal, I had asked you which were the chief tasks, generally speaking according to this order?
A. Shall I repeat?
Q. Quite briefly, yes.
MR DENNEY: As I understand the translation with reference to the question about military administration, first the interpreter said no and then said yes. I would like to have it clear in the record.
THE PRESIDENT: Counsel will kindly put the question again and the translation and interpreters will then give a further and in their judg ment a correct interpretation.
DR. LATERNSER: Yes Mr. President.
Q. (By Dr. Laternser) Through this order did you receive the supervision over the military administration?
A. Yes.
Q. Which authority did you receive in addition to that?
A. The executive power.
Q. And what does executive power mean?
A. The maintenance of peace and of security and order
Q. Which areas were subordinate to you in this respect?
A. With Fuehrer order number 31, in addition to those areas which were already under my command in Greece, I received new areas, the Serbian area and Crete.
Q. Did you execute the executive powers yourself?
A. They were transferred to other offices and these were the military commander and or commanders.
Q. Which offices do you mean by this?
A. By this I mean the commander of Serbia, commander of Salonika Aegean and the commander South Greece.
Q. What about Crete?
A. Crete was subordinate to its own commandant who had executive powers under orders from the commander South Greece.
Q. And who was commandant of Crete at that time?
A. This was General Andrae.
Q. Did you have anything to do with him?
A. Relatively little.
Q. When, for instance?
A. He came perhaps once or twice directly to me in order to tell me what was going on. On one of these occasions he also came with a teletype from Goering who demanded very strict measures against the population of Crete. After Goering was not actually empowered to intervene and there was no longer a necessity, this order was not carried out but at that time a general amnesty was made in Crete.
Q. When was that approximately, only if you know?
A. That was end of August, beginning of September.
Q. 1941?
A. 1941.
Q. And to whom were you subordinate in your capacity as Wehrmacht commander Southeast?
A. Directly to Hitler.
Q. I will now show you another chart which I would ask you to look at. Your Honor, this is the third photostat, on which you can see on the right margin, Li-151. Is this correct?
A. Yes.
Q. Have you anything to add to these subordinations here, apart from what you have already told us?
A. Yes, According to order number 31, the commander in Serbia was directly subordinate to me and I had to carry out supervision of the administration. In this Fuehrer order this was stated. The general quartermaster of the OKH was of the opinion that the administration in Serbia should also continue to be directed by him. The Fuehrer order as such could not be altered. A certain appercation was therefore given in the executive provisions of the Fuehrer order.
Q. Field Marshal, I am coming to this later on. Does this chart show the relations of the offices correctly, as they were there at that time?
A. Yes.
Q. Which non offices existed in addition to yours on the Balkans?
A. The plenipotentiary of the Reich.
Q. And what was his job?
A. He had to deal with cultural, political and economic questions.
Q. And what about the Luftwaffe and the Navy at that time?
A. The Luftwaffe and the Navy were subordinate to me. The operational air war was also excepted here in this case. Both offices tried, how ever, to remain as independent as possible.
Q. Through which office were the administration affairs supposed to be managed?
A. The direction of the administration affairs as supposed to be directed by the OKH, general quartermaster.
Q. In addition to this order were you given any other orders about this either written or oral?
A. After the Fuehrer order was already finished I was called to Berkin where Brauchitsch told me about the new instillation of the Wehrmacht commander. On this occasion I also spoke to the quartermaster general and he said that the administration also in the future must be directed by the quartermaster general and he added, "We will do that all right."
Q. And what other offices were in the Balkans?
A. There were the Navy offices, the Air Force offices, the offices of the Four Year Plan and a large number of other staffs who were outside my control.
Q. From whom did these offices receive their orders?
A. From their superior Reich Offices.
Q. And at that time what was the relation of the commander of Serbia to the offices of the OKH and/or OKW?
A. The Commander of Serbia received, with regard to administrative affair, direct orders from the quartermaster general and in police matters through the Reichs Fuehrer SS Himmler, and in matters of Four Year Plan, through Goering.
Q. And how did the official channel work?
A. The official channel went directly from Berlin to Belgrade. This had to be so partly because of the difficult communication which existed between Athens and Belgrade.
Q. How should the official channel have gone at that time of which I am speaking?
A. If the Fuehrer order had been strickly kept to, them the official channels should have gone through me.
Q. And was it frequently not adhered to?
A. I didn't know. In matters, for instance, of the Reichsfuehrer SS certainly didn't know because I never had anything to do with the Reichsfuehrer SS.
Q. What is the explanation of the fact that the conditions could not be brought into line with order number 31?
A. This can be explained by the fact that the conditions had already existed which were set down by Fuehrer order number 29, and also through the desire of the quartermaster general to keep the administration of the occupied territories in his hands.
Q. What was the relation between your office and that of the German happenings General in Zagreb?
A. Very loose. The General informed me about events, about individual happenings as a neighbor tells one about what happen in his hourse.
Q. Was the German General in Zabreb subordinate to you?
A. Not at all.
Q. At which time did Fuehrer order number 31 came into force, this order which is contained in exhibit number 16 and is dated the 9 of June, 1941?
A. This Fuehrer order was supplemented by the executive directions---just a moment.
Q. The executive provisions are contained on page 60 to 62 of the English document book 1 and bear the exhibit number 16. Please continue.
A. These executive regulations came into force on the 20th of June, arrived at the Wehrmacht commander Southeast on the 20 of June, and with them the Fuehrer order of the 6th September---of the 9th June. I myself arrived on the 23d of June, 1941, back from Berlin to Athens and on this day our authority from the Wehrmacht commander Southeast about the institution of Wehrmacht commander Southeast was issued.
Q. So that you, Field Marshal, if I can summarize, received territorial authority in the Balkans on the 23d of June, 1941?
A. Yes.
Q. We will now first turn to Greece. At the end of June, 1941 what was the situation in Greece?
A. The situation in Greece at the end of June, 1941 was quiet.
Q. What are the relations of the German troops toward the population?
A. The relations of the Germans troops towards the population was good. One could say friendly, and in some cases very friendly.
Q. Did you ussur any orders about the relations of the troops towards the population?
A. I certainly issued orders of the day and in the order after the capitulation I pointed out to the troops that they should treat the Greek soldiers in accordance with their gallant behavior and furthermore pam phlets were distributed about the behavior toward the civilian population.
Pamphlets were distributed regarding the respect due to this ancient culture.
Q. What was the feeling of the German soldiers towards the civilian population?
A. There was a wide feeling of sympathy.
Q. And how did this arise?
A. This arose from the fact of the preference of the German for this whole humanistic Greek civilization and there were also through many Greeks studying in Southern Germany close relations between them; especially the Southern Germans and the Bavarians had special sympathies. The first King of Greece was the son of the Bavarian King. The town of Athens shows many signs of a well known Bavarian architect and until the world war, young Greeks were brought up in the Bavarian cadet corps and received Bavarian nationality and became Bavarian officers.
Q. Did you ever meet such an officer?
A. Yes, a close comrade of mine.
Q. And how can the good mutual relations be explained further?
A. It can be traced back to the fact that the Greek population was happy that the war was ended for them, and further they were grateful for the fact that the soldiers were released at once home.
Q. During the fighting were there damages caused in Greece?
A. No.
Q. What about Athens and Salonika for instance?
A In Athens there was no damage at all in the town that could be seen from the films we saw. Damage occurred in the harbor area of place through attacks on British transports. Salonika received no damage at all in the entry. The town was captured without a fight and also before it was not bombarded.
Q. What other signs were there of good relations?
A. By the friendly way in which the troops were received in their billets.
Q. A witness has already testified to this here, but I don't want to put a leading question, what about the hanging out of flags?
A. The Greeks would have been very grateful for the fact that I said to the Greek Minister President after we had taken over the Government, I don't want the German flag to fly over the Government building and I gave him permission from the 4th of May onwards to fly the Greek flag over the castle. In addition for the grave of the unknown soldier which was in the main square of Athens immediately in front of the castle a permanent guard was posted consisting of a Mountain Rifleman and a Greek soldier with guns, together.
Q. Field Marshall, have you any confirmation for this good re lation from the other side?
A. When I was a prisoner of war I met a later finance minister.
Q. From which Government?
A. From the Greek Government, and as he told me he took up office with the consent of the exile government and he too confirmed to me that there was completely friendly agreement between the German soldiers and Greek population.
Q. When was he finance minister?
A. I don't remember the date exactly. He must have been Finance Minister in 1943/44. I don't want to state his name here. I know that it might harm him.
Q. Did you have any other confirmations?
A. Yes.
Q. From whom?
A. The Royal Hungarian Ambassador at the Government in Athens.
Q. Who was that?
A. Freiherr von Welisch. He wrote to me after I was already back home a letter in which he specially assured me that he had spoken to a number of Greeks and was speaking to a number of Greeks and that they had never criticized my behavior at all and that many, however, had spoken of me with respect, even reverence.
Q. Where is Welisch now?
A. Von Welisch - I don't know where he is now. When the Jewish laws were introduced into Hungary he went to Cairo. He was mentioned by the last witness who testified here.
BY JUDGE BURKE:
Q. I would like the balance of that translation.
DR. LABERNER: Should the answer be repeated?
A. Freiherr von Welisch went to Cairo at a time when in Hungary the Jewish laws were introduced.
BY DR. LATERNSER:
Q. Then you said something about a Greek witness?
A. The last Greek witness, a Professor who was here on the witness stand, named Freiherr von Welisch in a certain matter as source of information.
MR. DENNEY: Will the Interpretor pull the light when the answer is not finished. Dr. Laternser has no way of knowing. That is what the lights are for.
THE PRESIDENT: Will the suggestion made kindly be carried out. I believe it will be helpful to the Tribunal and all concerned. If there is any hesitancy on the part of the interpreters don't hesitate to put on the light. We are all human and we can't do the impossible and don't hesitate to stop the witness.
DR. LATERNSER: Has everything now been translated?
THE INTERPRETOR: The last word was, "The Greek witness in the stand mentioned Freiherr von Welisch as a man who could be used as a source of information.
DR. LATERNSER: The witness just said that the last Greek witness had named Freiherr von Welisch as a reliable source of information who could be used.
THE INTERPRETOR: Yes.
BY DR. LATERNSER:
Q. When you talk about the last Greek witness, do you mean the professor of course.
A. Yes.
Q. At that time to whom else did you have connections?
A. With the Ambassador from the Holy See, Arch Bishop Roncelli.
Q. Did you often meet him?
A. He was my guest a few times. He also visited me while I was ill in the hospital and this was still in November 1941.
Q. Did he complain about anything?
A. No, with my permission he visited hospitals in which British soldiers were and he reported to me about this visit in a very satisfactory manner.
Q. Did the Ambassador at the Holy See have an opportunity to complain to you about anything, in view of the relations between you?
A. Yes, he had this possibility.
Q. What was life like after the occupation, for instance in Salonika and Athens?
A. Shortly after the occupation life in Athens and in Salonika took on a normal course. The trams started up; the shops and cafes were opened; and in Athens and Salonika we issued the approval of free use of telephone communication; also throughout Greece and in the Islands, and there that wasn't possible, for this communication with the islands was made available at certain hours.
Q. Have you yourself a personal impression, for instance, about business life?
A. Yes, in going through the town a few times I made several individual purchases.
Q. For instance were the Jewish businesses open?
A. Yes.
Q. Were any measures taken against the Jewish population?
A. No, individual officers of my staff had connections with Jewish business people and a number of officers, especially in Salonika, lived with Jews.
Q. Later on did the relation between the Jews and Greek population change?