Q Now, let's get back to the experiments. Do you know that there was a liaison man that Beiglboeck appointed between him and the experimental subjects?
A Yes, there was. He had been in the camp for quite a while and knew his way around the camp. He was the oldest one among us.
Q Do you know whether any of the subjects had the so-called escape point?
A Yes, two of them. Bamberger was one of them.
Q They did have escape points?
A Yes, they did.
Q Do you know how the Professor treated these people?
A The Professor promised them that if they finished the experiment they would have the escape point taken away from them, and this would have made things much easier for them because people with the escape point couldn't have around freely in the camp.
Q That point meant that they had attempted to escape. Were there, among the experimental subjects, persons who had been in the Army?
A Yes, I think once two gentlemen from Munich came. I think they were from the Gestapo, and they asked us about our families. I think they were looking for reasons to let us leave the camp. I think one of them told them that he had the Iron Cross, second class.
Q Were you in the Wehrmacht yourself?
A No, but I was in the Reich Labor Service.
Q Do you remember a nurse from Vienna, a young fellow?
A Yes, he talked the same dialect as the Professor speaks.
Q Was his name maybe Pillwein?
A I don't know his name, but I believe this was the nurse who took Max's place when Max was fired.
Q What triangle did the gypsies wear?
A They all wore black.
Q What triangle color did you wear?
A Black.
Q Weren't there gypsies with the brown triangle?
A That was earlier. Then in 1940 that brown triangle was done away with.
Q What did the brown triangle mean?
A That also meant asocial and slackers.
Q How did you get into the concentration camp?
A I was alleged to be asocial. I was taken to the concentration camp without really knowing why, probably because I am a gypsy.
Q After the liberation in 1945 did you meet any of these gypsies later?
A Yes, once I met Henreiner.
Q What did he tell you?
A He told me that things were going badly with him at the moment. I asked him where he lived. He said in the neighborhood of Augsburg and was a worker there. He said that on his upper thigh he had had an operation. He had been used for a plegmone experiment and then we just talked shop and that was all.
Q. Did he curse about the sea water experiments?
A. No, not exactly curse. He did say, however, that he was not being very well treated after he had done so much in the experiments.
Q. Did you meet anybody else?
A. Yes, I met Reinhardt.
Q. Did you meet Laubinger and Bamberger?
A. No, I never saw them again.
DR. STEINBAUER: I have no further questions.
THE PRESIDENT: Have any other defense counsel any questions to propound to this witness? There being none, the Prosecution may cross examine.
CROSS EXAMINATION BY MR. HARDY:
Q. Witness, on the 6th of June 1744, when you were arrested by the Gestapo, were you told the reasons for your arrest?
A. No, I was given no reasons, but I assumed that I was arrested because I am a gypsy.
Q. You were arrested and placed in a concentration camp simply because you were a gypsy, is that right?
A. Yes.
Q. Had you ever committed any crimes prior to that time?
A. No, but I once was fined for breaking a work contract.
Q. You were never in jail for any other criminal offense before the 6th of June 1744?
A. Yes, I had 3 months in jail for breaking that work contract I just mentioned.
Q. When you arrived in the Dachau Concentration Camp you were on a special Commando detail, is that correct?
A. We were taken to the quarantine station immediately.
Q. But you volunteered to go to Dachau for a special commando, didn't you?
A. Yes; in Buchenwald we volunteered and that is why we went to Dachau. We were then sent to the quarantine station, and waited to be sent to the promised special commando.
Q. How many other gypsies accompanied you from Buchenwald to Dachau?
A. Exactly 40 in toto; 39 others and myself.
Q. Were they all volunteers for this special commando?
A. Yes, we all volunteered in Buchenwald.
Q. When you arrived at Dachau you state you were given a physical examination. Who gave you that examination?
A. First we were examined by a prisoner-doctor. Then we were x-rayed.
Q. Who x-rayed you?
A. That also was done by a prisoner; that was the so-called x-ray Capo.
Q. Then you were asked to participate in the sea-water experiments?
A. No. First of all we were taken to I/1.
Q. That was the sea water station, wasn't it?
A. Yes, that was the sea-water station.
Q. There each one of you were asked if you wished to volunteer for the sea-water experiments?
A. Then Professor Beiglboeck came and explained the experiment, pointing out to us that we would be very thirsty but that we need not be afraid; nothing would happen to us; nobody would die. Then we said we would be willing to participate.
Q. And he asked each one of you to volunteer?
A. We all 40 of us were there together and he explained this business to us. We talked it over among ourselves and declared our willingness.
Q. How many refused?
A. Nobody.
Q. Are you sure?
A. Yes.
Q. Think about that a moment. Are you sure - again?
A. I am absolutely certain that no one refused.
Q. Everyone was happy that they were going to be subjected to seawater experiments?
A. Yes, we were all happy about this. We were told that after the experiment we would receive an easy commando and given food and we would get cigarettes; after we heard this, we all declared our willingness.
Q. After you had received the physical examination, wasn't it true that they were going to drop you from the experiment?
A. Yes. Professor Beiglboeck wanted to exchange me but I bogged him to leave me in the experiment because I didn't want to be separated from my friends, particularly from my relative, Mettbach, and because I did not want to lose the advantages that had been promised.
Q. Is it possible that you were the only volunteer of the 44 men used in the experiment -- you were the only one that wanted to stay there because you had relatives there and didn't want to be separated from your colleagues?
A. No, we all wanted to be there.
Q. Did Laubinger want to be there?
A. Yes.
Q. Did Reinhardt want to be there?
A. Yes.
Q. How do you know that?
A. I was with them. We talked with each other.
Q. You don't suppose it is possible they didn't want to be there?
A. You are asking whether it is possible they did not want to be there - those two?
Q. Yes.
A. No, they declared their willingness after we all had talked the matter over.
Q. Would you consider, that they are careless with the truth if they are to say that you were the only volunteer?
A. We were all volunteers. We all applied for this experiment.
Q. Did you know each subject used in the experiment?
A. Yes.
Q. You knew every one of them?
A. Yes, every one of them. I knew every single one.
Q. Did you know their names?
A. In the experimental station I knew almost all the names but I have forgotten them in the meantime. I remember some of them but of course I have forgotten a great number of them.
Q. How many men were used in the experiments?
A. At first 40 men; then 3 or 4 more gypsies came from Dachau; in toto we were 44 people.
Q. Did you know Johann Anger?
A. Anger?
Q. Yes.
A. Spell it, please.
Q. A-n-g-e-r.
A. No.
Q. He was one of the subjects. I thought you knew them all?
A. I knew them all. Maybe I have forgotten the name, but as far as I know I did not know this man, Anger.
Q. Did he volunteer?
A. Who, Anger?
Q. Yes.
A. We all volunteered.
Q. Did you know Paul Franz?
A. Franz? Yes, I recognized him in the pictures here.
Q. What's his nationality?
A. German. He was from Bremen, if I remember.
Q. You are sure he isn't Polish?
A. Franz? There is no possibility that Franz was a Pole.
Q. Were there any foreign nationals - that is, men other than Germans, used in these experiments?
A. Austrians and Burgenlaender and some from Upper Silesia and East Prussia.
Q. No Czechoslovakians?
A. No.
Q. No Russians?
A. No.
Q. No Polish?
A. A couple of them talked Polish but I think they came from Upper Silesia or East Prussia. That very often happens. Lots of Upper Silesians can talk Polish. I can't tell you for sure.
Q. Was your number 91147 - your shipment number?
A. by Dachau number? I can't remember any more but I think it was 91147 or 91145, I am not sure.
Q. You lived in Furth before you wore incarcerated in the concentration camp?
A. Yes, I was born there.
Q. You lived on Fischerstrasse?
A. Yes.
Q. On 9 August 1944 you left Buchenwald?
A. Yes, that is about right. It was either the 8th of 9th of August that we went to Dachau - it might even have been the 10th.
Q. When did you go to Mauthausen?
A. About the end of September or beginning of October.
Q. You are sure it wasn't the 14th of September 1944?
A. When I went to Mauthausen?
Q. That's right -- the 14th day of September 1944?
A. I can't say this for sure but I think it was the end of September.
Q. Would the records of the ... the Dachau records of the prisoner's transfers be incorrect if they said that on 14 September 1944 you were transferred to Mauthausen?
A. That I cannot tell you, -- whether they are wrong.
Q. When did the experiments end?
A. About the middle of September.
Q. And you had already gone to Mauthausen, hadn't you?
A. No.
Q. Then the Dachau records of the transfer of inmates are incorrect and you didn't leave on the 14th of September for Mauthausen?
A. That I cannot say for sure but as far as I know, the experiments ended about the middle of September and two or three days after the experiments were completed, according to your own testimony, is that correct?
A. I saw all of the subjects after the experiment. That I know for sure. It was a few days after that t at I left. I was the first of the experimental subjects who left Dachau.
Q. Somebody could have died after you left, without your knowing about it, is that right?
A. That could be, of course.
Q. And if you left on the 14th of September, did you leave before the completion of the experiments?
A. No. This I know for certain. When the experiments were concluded I was still at Dachau.
Q.- What date were they concluded?
A.- That I don't know for sure.
Q.- Was professor Beiglboeck still at Dachau when you left or had he gone back to Vienna?
A.- That I don't know. I saw Professor Beiglboeck for the last time when I was released from the hospital.
Q.- How did you happen to know his name to be Beiglboeck.
A.- I didn't know that at that time. I just found out here that is name was Beiglboeck.
Q.- You didn't know that when you were in the concentration camp?
A.- No. I didn't know his name in the camp.
THE PRESIDENT: I assume counsel that your cross examination will continue for some time?
MR. HARDY: This is a good breaking point, your Honor.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal will now be in recess for a few minute.
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal is again in session.
DR. HOFFMANN: (Attorney for Defendant Pokorny) Mr. President, may I ask to have the defendant Pokorny excused this afternoon because I need him to prepare his case?
THE PRESIDENT: Upon the request of Counsel for the Defendant Pokorny that he be excused from attendance before the Tribunal this afternoon, the Court grants the request, it appearing that it is necessary that the defendant consult with his counsel. His absence from the Tribunal will not prejudice his case.
DR. GAWLIK: (Attorney for Defendant Hoven) Mr. President, the Defense Counsel can speak to the defendant only in the morning and afternoon.
Since the Court is sitting all day today, I would have no opportunity to speak to my client, Dr. Hoven. I can assume that my examination will be finished Monday, and then Dr. Hoven will be cross examined, and again I will be unable to speak to him, as I will be unable to speak to my client at all during tho examination. I assume that some questions will come up during the direct examination. Therefore, I wonder whether it would not be possible for the Court to rule that I be allowed to see my client this evening or tomorrow morning.
THE PRESIDENT: Counsel may consult with his client Hoven this evening or tomorrow morning, subject to the regulations of security, which I presume can be arranged so that counsel may consult his client either this evening or tomorrow morning, or, both times if he desires to do so. That is a wish of the Tribunal -- I presume that security will conform to these directions; and the Court can arrange that counsel .may consult with his client any evening next week -- whether the defendant Hoven is under direct or cross examination.
DR. GAWLIK: Thank you.
DR. GIERL: (Attorney for Defendants Fischer, Gebhardt, and Oberhauser.)
Mr. President, the defendant Gebhardt has heart trouble, and the defendant Oberhauser is also ill. I submit a certificate by the prison doctor, Dr. Pfuecker, for the defendant Gebhardt; I shall bring a certificate for the defendant Oberhauser later, I request that these two defendants be excused from the session this afternoon.
THE PRESIDENT: Who is the defendant referred to on this certificate. You mentioned the defendant Oberhauser on both occasions.
DR. GIERL: Gebhardt and Oberhauser.
THE PRESIDENT: I note that this certificate of the surgeon refers to the defendant Gebhardt, and counsel referred to and mentioned the defendant Oberhauser. Will the certificate by the surgeon be filed in regard to the excusing of the defendant Oberhauser?
DR. GIERL: May I correct Your Honor. What I intended to say was that I shall bring a certificate for the defendant Oberhauser later.
THE PRESIDENT: And you desire them to be excused from attendance before the Tribunal this afternoon?
DR. GIERL: Yes, please.
THE PRESIDENT: Pursuant to the certificate by the prison official -who is Dr. Pfuecker?
DR. GIERL: I am informed that Dr. Pfuecker is the prison doctor -the German prison doctor/
THE PRESIDENT: These certificates are usually filed by the American prison doctor who is in charge of the defendants. If these defendants desire to be excused this afternoon, I suggest you procure certificates from the American surgeon in charge ;f the prison. Upon filling of those certificates, the defendants Oberhauser and Gebhardt may be excused from attendance before the Tribunal this afternoon.
DR. GIERL: Thank you.
BY MR. HARDY:
Q Witness, you know the name Robert Adler?
A I remember the name.
Q Did he come from Buchenwald in the transport with you to Dachau on 9 August 1944?
A Yes.
Q Was he of Polish nationality?
A No, he was not a Pole.
Q You are certain of that?
A Yes.
Q Why are you certain of that?
A Because I talked to him. I remember very well he talked German to me.
Q Is it possible that a Polo could speak German?
A It is possible.
Q You don't know whether or not he was Polish, do you?
AAs far as I know he must have been from East Prussia.
Q Do you know Siegmund Grsbowski, spelled G-r-s-b-o-w-s-k-i?
A I don't remember the name.
Q You don't remember that? He came in the transport with you on 9 August 1944.
A It is possible but I don't remember the name.
Q You didn't know all the subjects that came with you on the transport, did you?
A I knew them by sight but I don't know all their names.
Q You don't know whether or not he was Polish, do you?
A What was the name?
Q Grsbowski.
A I don't know for certain.
Q Did you know Johann Vongilaj, spelled V-o-n-g-i-l-a-j?
A I do not remember that name.
Q Did you know Roman Gusew, spelled G-u-s-e-w?
A No, I do not remember that name either.
Q He was a Russian. Came on the transport with you from Buchenwald to Dachau.
A That's impossible. There were no Russians on our transport. We were all gypsies.
Q Could he have been a gypsy born in Russia?
A I don't think there was any Russian gypsy.
Q You really don't know, do you?
A No.
Q Did you know Jacob Bamberger?
A Yes.
Q He came on the transport with you, didn't he?
A No, he came from Dachau.
Q He was at Flossenburg before that, wasn't he?
A I don't know.
Q Didn't you know him?
A Yes, I knew him. I met him in Dachau.
Q He was a German, wasn't he?
A Yes.
Q You state that he volunteered for the experiments?
A Yes, He was present while Professor Beiglboeck explained the experiment to us and we all said we were willing. We could have gone back to the block if we wanted to and gone back to work.
Q If you had gone back to the block, would you have been treated as a saboteur?
A No. I would have been put to work.
Q Did any of your gypsy friends desire to be relieved of the experiments and upon requesting not to be used in the experiments was told by Beiglboeck that he would be hanged by Beiglboeck as a saboteur if he refused?
A No, that is impossible. Professor Beiglboeck never said that.
Q You never heard anything about that?
A No.
Q Could you state that your fellow gypsies used in the experiments were being careless with the truth if they state one of the men was refused and threatened in that manner?
A If they testified as a witness?
Q Yes, suppose one of the other gypsies stated that. Would you state they were telling the truth?
A Yes, I can say that that is not the truth. I never heard any such thing. I know that for certain.
Q It could have happened without you knowing about it, couldn't it?
AAs long as I was in the experiment I never heard of any such thing. I am sure my comrades would have told me if such a thing had happened.
Q Do you know Siegfried Schmidt?
A Yes, I know Schmidt but I don't think he was in the experiments. He was at Dachau. His name was Schmidt.
Q What number were you in the experiment? Bed #9, weren't you?
A Yes.
Q Your relative was in bed #10, wasn't the?
A Yes, I remember that very well.
Q Who was in bed no. 8?
A Bed #8, that must have been Laubinger. Laubinger was in my group, too.
Q Laubinger was in bed #7. Who was in bed #8?
A I don't remember.
Q Do you know who was in bed #11?
A No, I don't remember.
Q Well, that was Siegfried Schmidt for your information, witness, in bed #11, and you don't remember him?
A No.
Q Just two beds away from you?
A I don't understand the question.
Q He was only two beds away from you and you don't remember Siegfried Schmidt?
A No, I don't remember him.
Q He was a German gypsy, born in Hamburg.
A I don't remember him.
Q Did you know Paul Hirschberg?
A No. I don't remember this name.
Q Did you know Edmund Hirschberg?
A I don't remember that name either.
Q Did you know Alfred Hoff, H-o-f-f?
A Hoff?
Q H-o-f-f, Hoff.
A No.
Q He came in the transport with you from Buchenwald, didn't he?
A I do not remember. I don't remember all the names. That was four years ago.
Q He was in bed #44.
A That's possible. I don't know. I don't know Hoff.
Q Did you know Oleskewitsch? I will spell that for you. It is a name that I can't pronounce too well. Spelled O-l-e-s-k-e-w-i-t-s-c-h.
A No, I don't remember that name.
Q You don't remember that name. Wasn't he one of the men who was used in the experiment but did not come from Buchenwald? He was in bed #17, witness.
A I don't know.
Q You don't know much about these subjects, do you?
A I can't remember all their names. I remember some names because I knew the people and they were easy names to remember - Bamberger, Laubinger, Reinhardt.
Q This subject was a Russian gypsy. You don't know him?
A No.
Q Did you know Michael Durnow, spelled D-u-r-n-o-w? Also a Russian gypsy. He was in bed #20. Did you know him?
A No, I don't remember.
Q Did you know Victor Viljaew, spelled V-i-l-j-a-e-w?
A No. I don't remember that name.
Q Did you know Joseph Reinhardt?
A His name was Xaver Reinhardt, not Joseph.
Q Pardon me, I meant M-e-i-n-h-a-r-d-t, Joseph.
A No, I don't remember the name Meinhardt.
Q Did you know Raymond Papain, P-a-p-a-i-n?
A Unless it was this little gypsy whom we called Papagei (parrot). He came from Burgenland. He was the professor's favorite.
Q Why was he the professor's favorite?
A Because he came from Burgenland perhaps - because he was an Austrian. Maybe because he was young.
Q He was sixteen years old, wasn't he?
A Yes, that's about right.
Q Did you know Adolf Lafontaine?
A No.
Q Did you know Herman Mellanewsky?
A I don't remember that name.
Q That is a Polish name, isn't it?
A Polish names are hard to remember. I can't remember.
Q Well then, there were Polish people in the experiments, weren't there?
A I don't think so. They were mostly from Upper Silesia and East Prussia and there are many Polish names there.
Q Do you know Barriansky?
A No.
Q Strauss, Reinhold Strauss?
A I remember that name Strauss.
Q Do you know Fritz Rosinsky?
A No.
Q Karl Bernard?
A Bernhardt?
Q B-e-r-n-a-r-d.
A I remember vaguely but I am not certain.
Q You know? Karl Steinbach?
A I remember that name, too.
Q You know Georg Papi, spelled P-a-p-i, P-a-p-a-i, pardon me.
A That must be the little gypsy, the young one. We called him Papagei.
Q Well, now he was subjected to sea water, wasn't he. Straight sea water in the course of the experiments, this young boy?
AAs far as I remember he was in a very easy group.
Q Would you consider it an easy group to receive 500 cc of sea water to drink every day. Was that one of the easy groups. He was subject #37. That was one of the bad groups, wasn't it?
A I don't remember.
Q Well, you don't know, do you, whether these young boys wore used in the most strenuous groups ?
A The young people were mostly put in the easy groups. As far as I remember the worst group was group one.
Q.- Mow, do you know Johann Reinhardt?
A.- No, not Johann Reinhardt. I knew Xaver Reinhardt.
Q.- Do you know Stanislaus Pacskowski, P A C S K O W S K I ?
A.- I can't remember.
Q.- He was only two or three beds away from you. He was in bed No. 6.
A.- I can't remember those names.
Q.- Of course, you knew Xaver Reinhardt?
A.- Yes.
Q.- Do you know Franz Klavda, spelled K L A V D A?
A.- I don't remember that name.
Q.- He was a Czechoslovakian.
A.- No, there was no Czech there.
Q.- You're certain of that, are you?
A.- Yes.
Q.- Suppose he told you he was a Czech; would you disbelieve him?
A.- Yes, if he had told me he was a Czech, I would have believed him.
Q.- He was in bed No. 2. Did you ever get an opportunity to talk to him?
A.- I can 't remember that.
Q.- Did you have to stay in bed all the time during that first week or could you walk around and go out into the yard?
A.- No, in the preliminary period we could go out in the courtyard and walk around, and we could run around in the hospital, too. Mostly, I talked to the people that I knew best.
Q.- Did you know Karl Mettbach?
A.- Yes, that's a relative of mine.
Q.- He came from Orsen, didn't he, Orsen?
A.- As far as I know, he is from the Rhineland, near Eschwego.
Q.- Do you know where he was born?
A.- No, I don't.
Q.- Did he ever tell you?
A.- No.
Q.- Did you know Franz Kubik, K u b i k.
A.- I remember the name.
Q.- Is he a Czechoslovakian gypsy?
A.- No, he was not a Czech gypsy. He had a dialect like an Austrian Q.- His records say he was a Czechoslovakian.
Could you be wrong?
A.- I didn't see his birth certificate.
Q.- Do you know Karl Kraus, K r a u s ?
A.- No.
Q.- Ferdinand Daniel?
A.- No.
Q.- Karl Hoellenrainer?
A.- Hoellenrainer?
Q.- Yes.
A.- Yes, I know him.
Q.- Apparently, you don't know any of their names, do you?
A.- I can only remember the names that aren't so difficult and the people I knew for a longer time. I knew Hoellenrainer and Reinhardt, Q.- Did you know any of the others by name?
A.- I remember Butschinsky.
Q.- Anybody else?
A.- Taubmann.
Q.- Taubmann? How do you spell that?
A.- T a u b m a n n.
Q.- After you had asked. Professor Beiglboeck to be included, in the experiment so you could stay with your friends in Buchenwald how- long did you remain as an experimental subject?
A.- I fell sick on the third or fourth day, maybe the fifth day of the preliminary period. I suddenly had a fever.
Q.- You got very sick on the third day, didn't you?
A.- I don't remember exactly. That's possible.
Q.- Then your fever went down on the fourth day. You didn't feel so ill on the fourth day?
A.- Yes, the fever went down and I didn't feel so bad but the next day the fever went up again.
Q.- The fever actually didn't go up until the seventh day again, did it?
A.- And then I was put in Ward 3, Room 2.
Q.- Then you never went through the experiment, did you?
A.- No, I never drank sea water.
Q.- Were you ever in the experimental station at night when the experiments were going on?
A.- After the preliminary period?
Q.- After the preliminary period.
A.- No, then I had to sleep in the hospital.
Q.- You don't know whether any of your gypsy friends were tied to their beds, do you, at night?
A.- No, I know nothing about that.
Q.- You re in no position to know that, were you?
A.- But I was there in the daytime and I was not there at night.
Q.- Where were you, in the experimental station in the building or out in the yard, when you came to visit in the day time?
A.- Sometimes I was in the garden and sometimes I was inside.
Q.- Did they keep the doors locked?
A.- The doors of the experimental station were often locked.
Q.- You told me that you got weighed every day during the preliminary period. Is that right?
A.- Yes.
Q.- Is it possible that you only got weighed every other day?
A.- No, no, I know exactly that we were weighed every day, always in the morning.