A.- About thirty paces.
Q.- Thank you, Please tell us what you saw during the experiments when you visited your friends during the day.
A.- My comrades told me above all they were very thirsty and hungry and they asked me if I couldn't bring them a little water. They smoke quite a few cigarettes. They gave me some because I wasn't allowed to smoke in my sick station. They told me that they had to drink sea water and receive dextrose and such things -- this looked like chocolate but it wasn't -- that they were weighed daily and that they were thirsty. As I said, they did a lot of sleeping and were nervous. I could not do much talking with my friends because most of the time they were lying on their beds asleep.
Q.- The professor forbade your bringing them water. Did yon, nevertheless bring them water? Now, be honest.
A.- Several times I brought my relative Mettbach water to drink.
Q.- Where did you give it to him?
A.- Sometimes I smuggled it in to the experimental station myself. Sometimes I stuck it in through the fly screen which was a little bit loose on the window.
Q.- Could the experimental subjects receive packages?
A.- Yes, they could. I myself received none because I was only in Dachau for a short while and the mails took too long. One Taubmann and another man named Bamberger received packages every week.
Q.- Where these packages given to the experimental subjects during the preparatory period?
A.- The experimental subjects did receive the packages during the preparatory period, During the experiment proper they did not receive the packages. They were saved up for them until after the experiment.
Q.- Now, when the experiment was over, did the people recover rapidly, or did it take a long while?
A.- Since they all received good food, they recovered very quickly.
Q.- Do you know that some of the experimental subjects repeated the experiment?
A.- Yes, I remember some who double-crossed the Professor by drinking water. The Professor raised a big rumpus about that and gave them no cigarettes, took their cigarette ration away. Then, they promised not to do it again and asked to be allowed to repeat the experiment because they didn't want to lose the promised privileges after the experiment.
Q.- Did you see any bodies carried out of the experimental station on a stretcher?
A.- No.
Q.- Were persons who weren't dead carried out of the experimental station on stretchers?
A.- Yes, and they were taken to the electro-cardiograph station and then I was carried to Station III.
Q.- Did you observe how these people looked when they were being carried? Were they covered or where they open?
A.- Mostly, they were covered because they had to be carried past the wash room, and fresh water was running there all day long. So that they shouldn't sec this water, they were covered over with a white sheet.
Q.- Did you see cramps, or convulsions, or raving?
A.- No, and I never even heard of that.
Q.- One gypsy is said to have laid on the floor for an half an hour in cramps and finally had to get back into his own bed by himself.
A.- I don't believe that is so because if it had happened, my comrades would certainly have told me about it.
Q.- Would the comrades let the man lie on the floor half an hour?
A.- That is out of the question. That isn't the way they acted.
Q.- Did some of the experimental subjects have diarrhea during the experiment?
A.- In the preparatory period some of them did have diarrhea, probably because they couldn't stand the good food; but during the experiment, no.
Q.- Were blood samples taken?
A.- Yes, daily.
Q.- Who did it?
A.- Usually Professor Beiglboeck. I'd like to remark here that the Professor, when he did take the blood samples, was very tender and gentle. I myself can judge that. I have received injections in other camps, usually by SS-men or nurses, and they were very careless.
Q.- Did you see punctures given in the abdomen?
A.- In some of my comrades, I saw that on the right side, they were covered with adhesive tape; I asked them what it was, and they said they had received an injection.
Q.- Did they tell you that that hurt?
A.- They said it wasn't as bad as having a tooth pulled.
Q,- Did you ever hear that experimental subjects drank dirty water?
A.- No, I never did, and if it had happened, the comrades would certainly have told me.
Q.- How did Professor Beiglboeck treat the subjects as a whole?
A.- We were treated very well. He was very attentive.
Q.- Didn't he curse and scold?
A.- Well, some times when a person drank water behind his back he did curse a bit, but he recovered his good humor almost immediately every time.
Q.- Did he pass out cigarettes?
A.- In the preparatory period, we received two or three cigarettes a day. During the experiment, the Professor gave us as many cigarettes as we wanted.
He was passing them out all the time.
Q.- Did you remember that there were also Austrian gypsies in the experiment?
A.- Yes, I do. I can't tell you for sure how many there were. I think it was about 10 or 15. And there were also Burgenlaenders there.
Q.- And what language did they talk?
A.- Usually we talked the gypsy language. When we talked to the Professor, we all talked German.
DR. STEINBAUER: May it please the Tribunal, under Exhibit No. 35 I should like to put in pictures of the experimental subjects. The Prosecution already has a. copy of this, so that I may have these photographs indentified by the witness.
MR. HARDY: May it please Your Honors, the prosecution must object to the introduction of these photographs until they are substantiated. The original photographs are not available for the Tribunal, and it is rather difficult to ascertain if these photographs are the actual photographs taken. The original photographs have markings on the backs thereof, and the prosecution desires to see the originals. If they are available, then I have no objection.
THE PRESIDENT: Has defense counsel the original photographs?
DR. STEINBAUER: Of course, and there is nothing on the backs of them. I showed them to Professor Alexander once, and the thing on the back was the trade mark of the firm that made the paper. I should have been only too glad to find names on the back so I could have identified them.
THE PRESIDENT: The prosecution may examine the photographs.
MR. HARDY: May I ask the defense counsel where he secured these?
THE PRESIDENT: Can defense counsel answer the prosecution's question?
DR. STEINBAUER: Before Easter when I was in Vienna, I found these photographs among the papers and what-not that had to do with sea-water.
They were in the same place with these fever charts. I took them along with me and showed them to Mr. Beiglboeck and asked if they were the experimental subjects, and he said they were. Now, I'd like to have them identified by the witness so that he can say these really are the experimental subjects.
MR. HARDY: I have no further objection.
THE PRESIDENT: Counsel may hand the photographs to the witness.
A.- There is Reinhardt -
BY DR. STEINBAUER:
Q.- Mr. Mettbach, just wait a moment so that the Tribunal can follow you. Let's go through page by page.
THE PRESIDENT: What identification number, what exhibit number arc you going to give to these photographs?
DR. STEINBAUER: Number 35.
BY DR. STEINBAUER:
Q.- Are the persons on the first page experimental subjects?
A.- Yes, all of them are. I recognize all of them. I don't know their names, but I do recognize their faces.
Q.- Now, let's turn to the second page.
A.- There I am on the second page here. First on the left at the bottom.
Q.- But you are very thin, emaciated.
A.- That is the way I am. I have always been thin.
Q.- Do you know any of these people?
A.- Yes, next to me is Reinhardt. Xaver Reinhardt is his name. The rest of their names, I don't know.
Q.- Page 3, are those experimental subjects?
A.- Yes, all of them. The first in the top row, on the left, is Bamberger, the next is my relative Mettbach, the third is Laubinger. The rest of them I don't know. I don't know the names of any of the others.
Those must have been the Austrians, the other ones.
Q.- Turn to the next page.
A.- Yes, these persons were also in the experiment, but I don't know their names.
Q.- Go through these photographs page by page and tell me whether all of them are experimental subjects?
A.- Yes, they are. Yes, they were all there. I recognize a few of them. Page 5 I recognize those. That chap's name must be Franz, if I remember rightly.
THE PRESIDENT: On the photograph, which do you identify as Franz, witness?
A.- Page 5. There are two pictures, both of them are Franz.
BY DR. STEINBAUER:
Q.- What is being done to Franz there?
Q What is being done to Franz there?
A In the lower picture ho is having a blood sample taken. I don't know by name anyone on page 6. I don't know the man's name on page 7 either. On page 8 I don't know the names. On page 9 I recognize the people. The man lying down in the top row in the middle is Henreiner, and the picture next to that is also Henreiner. Below that is a Frenchman; I recognize him. And here is a little gypsy that was the youngest one there, the Professor's favorite. We called him the Parrot, Papagei. He is standing next to the Frenchman.
Q Witness, were these experimental subjects strong persons or weaklings?
A You can see from the pictures that they are all strong. I was the weakest one of them all. You can see that they are strong, healthy people in these pictures.
Q Didn't the Professor want to eliminate you because you were so weak?
A Yes. As I told you, he did try to eliminate me, but I asked him to keep me in the experiment.
Q The last two pictures are not pictures of experimental subjects. Those are two prison doctors, aren't they?
A Yes, I recognize these. One of them is a Frenchman. He is taking blood pressure here. Next to him is the little fellow I told you who was called the Parrot. He is a gypsy, and the other chap with the microscope is also a Frenchman. They were not in the experiment.
Q Yes, I wanted to make it clear that they were not in the experiment.
A No, they were simply helping the Professor.
Q Now, let us go on. Were minors among the experimental persons? You just spoke of one from the Burgenland.
A Yes, that was the Parrot. There were other young people there but they were 20 to 25 years old.
Q Were these minors that you just mentioned strong or weak physically?
A They were all strong.
Q Do you know in what experiment, to what experimental group they were assigned?
AAs far as I know the minors were put into the group where the experiments were the easiest.
Q What language did you speak among yourselves?
A Mostly in gypsy language.
Q What was the citizenship of the individual experimental subjects?
A Mostly they were Germans. There were a lot of Austrians and a lot of them came from East Prussia and Upper Silesia and the Burgenland.
Q You said that you were sick. During the experiment were other subjects brought to the hospital?
A No, only I was.
Q Were there SS doctors in the experimental station?
A Never. I never saw one there.
Q What doctors did you see in the station 3 where you slept?
A Those were mostly prisoner doctors and prisoner nurses. The senior doctor of the hospital was an SS doctor named Hintermeyer. This man was a very bad man. He sent people who were still very sick back to work.
Q Now, when the experiment was over did the subjects receive decent food?
A Yes. First of all they received diet food; they were on a diet first of all, and then they received the good food that they had received before the experiments that I described.
Q Now, these were simple people in the experiment. Were they constantly afraid of death or did they fear that they were on the point of death all the time?
A No, they didn't have to and they didn't, because the Professor assured us that no one was going to die, that nothing was going to happen to us, and we had complete confidence in the Professor.
Q Could a man stop the experiment whenever he wanted to, or did he have to ask permission?
A The Professor examined the persons daily and when he saw that things were going badly with them, then he interrupted the experiment himself.
Q Do you think anybody died as a consequence of the experiments?
A That is completely out of the question. I met all of my comrades later in the streets of the camp.
Q How long were you there after the experiments were terminated?
A I was let out a few days before the end of the experiments, let out from the sick room and then I was sent to Block 22. I was there for two or three days and then all my comrades returned. Some of them also went to Block 22 and the others went to other blocks, but we met all the time and wo talked about the commando we were about to receive and were happy that things were going to go better for us now.
Q I must tell you that a witness said here that three days after the experiments were over, one of the experimental subjects suddenly died.
A None of the experimental subjects died three days after the experiment. It might have been another gypsy. There were lots of other gypsies in the camp Dachau.
Q Now, I am asking you very explicitly and I remind you that you are testifying under oath. You know what the consequences can be if you perjure yourself. Do you consider it out of the question that any of the gypsies died, or do you think that it is perhaps possible? What do you know about this?
A So far as I know I can only say that none of the experimental subjects died.
I know absolutely for certain that I met every one of them in the camp streets afterwards and spoke with them.
Q Would anyone have told you if Max, Meyer or Huber or somebody had died?
A No, if anybody had died, of course, that news would have spread through the camp immediately. There would have been a little uproar among us if that had happened, but it didn't.
Q Did the people really receive this good food that you have been talking about?
A Yes, of course they really did.
Q Even after the experiment?
A Three or four days outer the experiment they got the food. First they were on a diet and then they received this good food that I mentioned.
Q Do you know whether Professor Beiglboeck, after the experiments, did something in behalf of the gypsies?
A So far as I know the Professor got in touch with the camp commander, but I can't tell you this for sure because all of a sudden I was sent out of Dachau in a large transport, and I didn't know at the time where it was going. Then, to my horror, I found myself in Mauthausen.
Q Since you mention Mauthausen how did things go with you there?
A I had terrible experiences there. I had to work first of all in a quarry, and then was sent to the outlying camp Melk. There I stayed for seven or eight months; then in Easter of '45 I was taken back from Melk to Mauthausen and then, on the 5th of May I was liberated by the American troops.
Q When you were taken back from Melk to Mauthausen did any die then?
A That was the worst night of my life. We were called up at 5:00 in the morning. We were all sick and weak. Then the train went back to Mauthausen and it took all night. Thirty-six people died in the car in which I was before we reached Mauthausen.
Q Now, let's get back to the experiments. Do you know that there was a liaison man that Beiglboeck appointed between him and the experimental subjects?
A Yes, there was. He had been in the camp for quite a while and knew his way around the camp. He was the oldest one among us.
Q Do you know whether any of the subjects had the so-called escape point?
A Yes, two of them. Bamberger was one of them.
Q They did have escape points?
A Yes, they did.
Q Do you know how the Professor treated these people?
A The Professor promised them that if they finished the experiment they would have the escape point taken away from them, and this would have made things much easier for them because people with the escape point couldn't have around freely in the camp.
Q That point meant that they had attempted to escape. Were there, among the experimental subjects, persons who had been in the Army?
A Yes, I think once two gentlemen from Munich came. I think they were from the Gestapo, and they asked us about our families. I think they were looking for reasons to let us leave the camp. I think one of them told them that he had the Iron Cross, second class.
Q Were you in the Wehrmacht yourself?
A No, but I was in the Reich Labor Service.
Q Do you remember a nurse from Vienna, a young fellow?
A Yes, he talked the same dialect as the Professor speaks.
Q Was his name maybe Pillwein?
A I don't know his name, but I believe this was the nurse who took Max's place when Max was fired.
Q What triangle did the gypsies wear?
A They all wore black.
Q What triangle color did you wear?
A Black.
Q Weren't there gypsies with the brown triangle?
A That was earlier. Then in 1940 that brown triangle was done away with.
Q What did the brown triangle mean?
A That also meant asocial and slackers.
Q How did you get into the concentration camp?
A I was alleged to be asocial. I was taken to the concentration camp without really knowing why, probably because I am a gypsy.
Q After the liberation in 1945 did you meet any of these gypsies later?
A Yes, once I met Henreiner.
Q What did he tell you?
A He told me that things were going badly with him at the moment. I asked him where he lived. He said in the neighborhood of Augsburg and was a worker there. He said that on his upper thigh he had had an operation. He had been used for a plegmone experiment and then we just talked shop and that was all.
Q. Did he curse about the sea water experiments?
A. No, not exactly curse. He did say, however, that he was not being very well treated after he had done so much in the experiments.
Q. Did you meet anybody else?
A. Yes, I met Reinhardt.
Q. Did you meet Laubinger and Bamberger?
A. No, I never saw them again.
DR. STEINBAUER: I have no further questions.
THE PRESIDENT: Have any other defense counsel any questions to propound to this witness? There being none, the Prosecution may cross examine.
CROSS EXAMINATION BY MR. HARDY:
Q. Witness, on the 6th of June 1744, when you were arrested by the Gestapo, were you told the reasons for your arrest?
A. No, I was given no reasons, but I assumed that I was arrested because I am a gypsy.
Q. You were arrested and placed in a concentration camp simply because you were a gypsy, is that right?
A. Yes.
Q. Had you ever committed any crimes prior to that time?
A. No, but I once was fined for breaking a work contract.
Q. You were never in jail for any other criminal offense before the 6th of June 1744?
A. Yes, I had 3 months in jail for breaking that work contract I just mentioned.
Q. When you arrived in the Dachau Concentration Camp you were on a special Commando detail, is that correct?
A. We were taken to the quarantine station immediately.
Q. But you volunteered to go to Dachau for a special commando, didn't you?
A. Yes; in Buchenwald we volunteered and that is why we went to Dachau. We were then sent to the quarantine station, and waited to be sent to the promised special commando.
Q. How many other gypsies accompanied you from Buchenwald to Dachau?
A. Exactly 40 in toto; 39 others and myself.
Q. Were they all volunteers for this special commando?
A. Yes, we all volunteered in Buchenwald.
Q. When you arrived at Dachau you state you were given a physical examination. Who gave you that examination?
A. First we were examined by a prisoner-doctor. Then we were x-rayed.
Q. Who x-rayed you?
A. That also was done by a prisoner; that was the so-called x-ray Capo.
Q. Then you were asked to participate in the sea-water experiments?
A. No. First of all we were taken to I/1.
Q. That was the sea water station, wasn't it?
A. Yes, that was the sea-water station.
Q. There each one of you were asked if you wished to volunteer for the sea-water experiments?
A. Then Professor Beiglboeck came and explained the experiment, pointing out to us that we would be very thirsty but that we need not be afraid; nothing would happen to us; nobody would die. Then we said we would be willing to participate.
Q. And he asked each one of you to volunteer?
A. We all 40 of us were there together and he explained this business to us. We talked it over among ourselves and declared our willingness.
Q. How many refused?
A. Nobody.
Q. Are you sure?
A. Yes.
Q. Think about that a moment. Are you sure - again?
A. I am absolutely certain that no one refused.
Q. Everyone was happy that they were going to be subjected to seawater experiments?
A. Yes, we were all happy about this. We were told that after the experiment we would receive an easy commando and given food and we would get cigarettes; after we heard this, we all declared our willingness.
Q. After you had received the physical examination, wasn't it true that they were going to drop you from the experiment?
A. Yes. Professor Beiglboeck wanted to exchange me but I bogged him to leave me in the experiment because I didn't want to be separated from my friends, particularly from my relative, Mettbach, and because I did not want to lose the advantages that had been promised.
Q. Is it possible that you were the only volunteer of the 44 men used in the experiment -- you were the only one that wanted to stay there because you had relatives there and didn't want to be separated from your colleagues?
A. No, we all wanted to be there.
Q. Did Laubinger want to be there?
A. Yes.
Q. Did Reinhardt want to be there?
A. Yes.
Q. How do you know that?
A. I was with them. We talked with each other.
Q. You don't suppose it is possible they didn't want to be there?
A. You are asking whether it is possible they did not want to be there - those two?
Q. Yes.
A. No, they declared their willingness after we all had talked the matter over.
Q. Would you consider, that they are careless with the truth if they are to say that you were the only volunteer?
A. We were all volunteers. We all applied for this experiment.
Q. Did you know each subject used in the experiment?
A. Yes.
Q. You knew every one of them?
A. Yes, every one of them. I knew every single one.
Q. Did you know their names?
A. In the experimental station I knew almost all the names but I have forgotten them in the meantime. I remember some of them but of course I have forgotten a great number of them.
Q. How many men were used in the experiments?
A. At first 40 men; then 3 or 4 more gypsies came from Dachau; in toto we were 44 people.
Q. Did you know Johann Anger?
A. Anger?
Q. Yes.
A. Spell it, please.
Q. A-n-g-e-r.
A. No.
Q. He was one of the subjects. I thought you knew them all?
A. I knew them all. Maybe I have forgotten the name, but as far as I know I did not know this man, Anger.
Q. Did he volunteer?
A. Who, Anger?
Q. Yes.
A. We all volunteered.
Q. Did you know Paul Franz?
A. Franz? Yes, I recognized him in the pictures here.
Q. What's his nationality?
A. German. He was from Bremen, if I remember.
Q. You are sure he isn't Polish?
A. Franz? There is no possibility that Franz was a Pole.
Q. Were there any foreign nationals - that is, men other than Germans, used in these experiments?
A. Austrians and Burgenlaender and some from Upper Silesia and East Prussia.
Q. No Czechoslovakians?
A. No.
Q. No Russians?
A. No.
Q. No Polish?
A. A couple of them talked Polish but I think they came from Upper Silesia or East Prussia. That very often happens. Lots of Upper Silesians can talk Polish. I can't tell you for sure.
Q. Was your number 91147 - your shipment number?
A. by Dachau number? I can't remember any more but I think it was 91147 or 91145, I am not sure.
Q. You lived in Furth before you wore incarcerated in the concentration camp?
A. Yes, I was born there.
Q. You lived on Fischerstrasse?
A. Yes.
Q. On 9 August 1944 you left Buchenwald?
A. Yes, that is about right. It was either the 8th of 9th of August that we went to Dachau - it might even have been the 10th.
Q. When did you go to Mauthausen?
A. About the end of September or beginning of October.
Q. You are sure it wasn't the 14th of September 1944?
A. When I went to Mauthausen?
Q. That's right -- the 14th day of September 1944?
A. I can't say this for sure but I think it was the end of September.
Q. Would the records of the ... the Dachau records of the prisoner's transfers be incorrect if they said that on 14 September 1944 you were transferred to Mauthausen?
A. That I cannot tell you, -- whether they are wrong.
Q. When did the experiments end?
A. About the middle of September.
Q. And you had already gone to Mauthausen, hadn't you?
A. No.
Q. Then the Dachau records of the transfer of inmates are incorrect and you didn't leave on the 14th of September for Mauthausen?
A. That I cannot say for sure but as far as I know, the experiments ended about the middle of September and two or three days after the experiments were completed, according to your own testimony, is that correct?
A. I saw all of the subjects after the experiment. That I know for sure. It was a few days after that t at I left. I was the first of the experimental subjects who left Dachau.
Q. Somebody could have died after you left, without your knowing about it, is that right?
A. That could be, of course.
Q. And if you left on the 14th of September, did you leave before the completion of the experiments?
A. No. This I know for certain. When the experiments were concluded I was still at Dachau.
Q.- What date were they concluded?
A.- That I don't know for sure.
Q.- Was professor Beiglboeck still at Dachau when you left or had he gone back to Vienna?
A.- That I don't know. I saw Professor Beiglboeck for the last time when I was released from the hospital.
Q.- How did you happen to know his name to be Beiglboeck.
A.- I didn't know that at that time. I just found out here that is name was Beiglboeck.
Q.- You didn't know that when you were in the concentration camp?
A.- No. I didn't know his name in the camp.
THE PRESIDENT: I assume counsel that your cross examination will continue for some time?
MR. HARDY: This is a good breaking point, your Honor.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal will now be in recess for a few minute.
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal is again in session.
DR. HOFFMANN: (Attorney for Defendant Pokorny) Mr. President, may I ask to have the defendant Pokorny excused this afternoon because I need him to prepare his case?
THE PRESIDENT: Upon the request of Counsel for the Defendant Pokorny that he be excused from attendance before the Tribunal this afternoon, the Court grants the request, it appearing that it is necessary that the defendant consult with his counsel. His absence from the Tribunal will not prejudice his case.
DR. GAWLIK: (Attorney for Defendant Hoven) Mr. President, the Defense Counsel can speak to the defendant only in the morning and afternoon.
Since the Court is sitting all day today, I would have no opportunity to speak to my client, Dr. Hoven. I can assume that my examination will be finished Monday, and then Dr. Hoven will be cross examined, and again I will be unable to speak to him, as I will be unable to speak to my client at all during tho examination. I assume that some questions will come up during the direct examination. Therefore, I wonder whether it would not be possible for the Court to rule that I be allowed to see my client this evening or tomorrow morning.
THE PRESIDENT: Counsel may consult with his client Hoven this evening or tomorrow morning, subject to the regulations of security, which I presume can be arranged so that counsel may consult his client either this evening or tomorrow morning, or, both times if he desires to do so. That is a wish of the Tribunal -- I presume that security will conform to these directions; and the Court can arrange that counsel .may consult with his client any evening next week -- whether the defendant Hoven is under direct or cross examination.
DR. GAWLIK: Thank you.
DR. GIERL: (Attorney for Defendants Fischer, Gebhardt, and Oberhauser.)