THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal is again in session.
THE PRESIDENT: I understand that counsel for the Prosecution has concluded his direct examination of the witness.
MR. HARDY: I have one or two questions in summation to ask the witness, if it please the Tribunal.
THE PRESIDENT: Proceed.
BY MR. HARDY:
Q. Mr. Vorlicek, have you ever appeared before a Tribunal as a witness before?
A. Yes.
Q. Before this Tribunal I want you to understand that you can clearly testify as to any facts which you have knowledge of concerning the activities in the experimental station at Dachau wherein the sea water experiments took place, and I want you to feel perfectly at liberty to express any opinions you have concerning the experiments and any of the activities in connection with the experiments. Now in summation, Mr. Vorlicek, it is my understanding that you state that the subjects used did not volunteer for the experiments, is that correct?
A. I can't imagine volunteering in a camp.
Q. By any stretch of the imagination could you imagine that they were volunteers in the true sense of the word?
A. No, I can't believe that.
Q. Did the experimental subjects themselves tell you whether or not they volunteered for the experiments?
A. They told mo that they did not volunteer.
Q. Who told you the story concerning the special Kommando that they volunteered fur while in Auschwitz?
A. The Czechs told me about that.
Q. How often did you talk to the experimental subjects?
A. Every day.
Q. And you were certain from your conversation with these experimental subjects that some of the subjects were Poles, some of them were Czechs, and some were Austrians and Hungarians?
f
A. Yes.
Q. Were there any Russians among the experimental subjects?
A. I do not know that.
Q. Were there any Germans among the experimental subjects?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you have anything further you wish to tell the Tribunal concerning these experiments?
A. No, I have nothing else to say.
HR. HARDY: No further questions, Your Honor.
THE PRESIDENT: Defense counsel may cross examine the witness.
CROSS EXAMINATION BY DR. STEINBAUER (For the defendant Beiglboeck):
Q. Witness, how often have you been examined as a witness on the sea water question?
A. Once.
Q. But I have two affidavits, both from the 9th of May. Who took down these affidavits and why were there two?
A. That statement was given at that time to Dr. Alexander only once.
Q. But we have two affidavits which were signed by you. I have them here.
A. Probably there are just two copies.
Q. Did you dictate it or did you just sign it?
A. I dictated it myself.
Q. Now I must ask you, long before that in the spring of 1946 weren't you examined once by someone else?
A. Yes, but nothing was written down.
Q. Well, that was a long time ago. The Vienna police took a record because I read it myself.
A. That is possible, but I didn't sign anything.
Q. Well, you were examined by the Vienna police, too, you remember that?
A. Yes.
Q. Now I should like to ask you the following: As soon as the gypsies arrived, did they come to the experimental station or later?
A. About a week later.
Q. And what happened during this week?
A. I don't know.
Q. Were people already undergoing the experiments? Were the people already drinking sea water or starving, or what was going on?
A. I don't know. I only know that when I came there new experiment were begun.
Q. Is it right that you came there because your friend Pillwein asked the professor to take you in and this facilitated the situation for you?
A. Whether that went through Beiglboeck I don't know, Pillwein came and got me himself.
Q. I don't imagine Pillwein had the authority to take people into the experiments on his own initiative, that is, as nurses?
A. I was not taken as a nurse.
Q. You were an assistant nurse.
A. No, I was not an assistant nurse. I was a patient. I just helped Pillwein.
Q. You helped the nurse?
A. Yes.
Q. And what was the name of the station? What number did it have?
A. I don't know.
Q. Perhaps you remember that it was roman numeral one over arabic one?
A. I cannot say.
Q. Do you know a station I a?
A. No.
Q. But at what station were you yourself when you were in the hospital?
A. In 9/4.
Q. Do you know the typhoid station?
A. Yes.
Q. What was the number of that?
A. I don't remember.
Q. Now you say, "Before I came there, a Yugoslav nurse who was on night duty was thrown out because he left the key in the door and therefore the patients were able to go out and drink water." And then you go on to say, "Afterwards one of the greens - that is a criminal - came who beat the people and he was transferred too."
A. No, he was before the Yugoslav.
MR. HARDY: Your Honor, may I request that the affidavit signed, by the witness Vorlicek be submitted to him so that he can follow Dr. Steinbauer.
THE PRESIDENT: The affidavits may be submitted to the witness.
(The witness is given the affidavits.)
BY DR. STEINBAUER:
Q. Do you have it? One of your statements begins, "At the time of the occupation of Austria..." and the other one begins, "After I was arrested in 1939 by the Gestapo..."
A. Yes.
Q. Now, I am taking the one which begins, "At the time of the occupation of Austria..." You say, "About July 1944 I was transferred to the experimental station."
A. Yes.
Q. "These experiments had in part already been started when I came there."
A. Yes.
Q. And now comes the story about this man with the green insignia and the Yugoslav. Is it not true that it was the other way around?
A. No, no. First the green one and then the Yugoslav came.
Q. Well, please read what it says in the affidavit. It says exactly the opposite.
A. There must be a mistake here.
Q. It's incorrect what it says here.
A. Yes.
Q. Can you remember the name of this man with the green insignia?
A. Only his first name: Max.
Q. Max - oh, yes, that famous Max. Then you say, "The experimental subjects were divided into groups. One group was injected with a red serum."' I have asked so many people and nobody knows any red serum. Are you color blind, Mr. Vorlicek?
A. No, I was wrong. That was when the blood was taken.
Q. Yes, that is very important. There is a red poison. You have to be very careful. Then this red serum is wrong?
A. Yes.
Q. And what did you think it was?
A. I had no idea.
Q. Could it have been blood which had been through the centrifuge?
A. I don't know.
Q. Then you obviously withdraw this testimony that one group was injected with red serum as being incorrect?
A. Yes.
Q. Now you tell the incident about the guinea pig. You say that Beiglboeck used to yell at the gypsies frequently. Why?
A. Because they didn't do what they were supposed to.
Q. Well, if you were in charge of an experiment or in charge of a labor detail and the people were always doing something else than they were supposed to do, would you praise them or reprimand them?
A. Certainly, I would scold them.
Q. Then can't you understand that Beiglboeck reproached you for helping the prisoners drink water?
A. What did you say, doctor?
Q. Do you admit that Beiglboeck had a certain justification in making charges against you and reproaching you for helping the prisoners drink water?
A. I cannot say.
Q. How did Beiglboeck treat the people who were not in the experiment?
A. He treated them well.
Q. Did he take an interest in their food?
A. Pillwein and I went and got the food.
Q. And you certainly saw to it that your comrades were fed decently.
A. Decent food means something else to me.
Q. Well, today we don't have enough to eat either. It always depends on the circumstances. You and Pillwein distributed the food?
A. Yes.
Q. Did Beiglboeck see to it that it was distributed correctly?
A. No, he didn't.
Q. Did he have any reason to mistrust you?
A. No.
Q. Do you know that he threw Max out because he distributed the food unjustly?
A. I only heard that.
Q. Do you really think you can say that Beiglboeck would have made you into a guinea pig?
A. Yes.
Q. Why?
A. That was a matter of course in the came. If one had anything to do with the SS--
Q. Was Dr. Beiglboeck in the SS?
THE PRESIDENT: The translation didn't come through.
BY DR. STEINBAUER:
Q. You have to wait, witness, until the translation comes through. I ask you, was Professor Beiglboeck in the SS?
A. I assumed that he was.
Q. What uniform did he wear?
A. Brown.
Q. A brown uniform?
A. Yes, yellowish brown.
q. And what kind of shoulder insignia did he have?
A. I don't remember.
Q. Did Beiglboeck ever beat anyone?
A. No.
Q. Did he threaten anyone with a revolver?
A. No.
Q. Did Beiglboeck give the people cigarettes?
A. Yes.
Q. How many cigarettes did the people in the experiment get?
A. I don't know exactly - two or three.
Q. Two or three cigarettes. In addition to these two or three cigarettes, did Beiglboeck give them other cigarettes?
A. I don't know.
Q. Do you consider it possible that he did?
A. Yes.
Q. Did he help the gypsies in any way?
A. I don't know.
Q. Do you know that one of the gypsies had a so-called escape point on his insignia?
A. Yes.
THE PRESIDENT: Wait a minute, witness. After your counsel propounds a question to you, you must wait a moment before you answer the question so that the interpreters may complete the interpretation of the question.
THE WITNESS: Yes.
BY DR. STEINBAUER:
Q Witness, if someone performed an experiment well, didn't Beiglboeck give him more cigarettes? Think it over.
A I don't know anything about that.
Q Now, let's come back to this escape insignia. Did one of the gypsies have this escape point?
A Yes.
Q Do you perhaps remember his name?
A No.
Q Was there a gypsy who had two escape points?
A I can't remember that either.
Q Do you know that Professor Beiglboeck tried to help these people get rid of their escape points?
A Pillwein told me about that.
Q You heard about it, then. Now about the nationality of the people: In your affidavits you said that you think -- look at your affidavit -- that they all spoke German?
A Most of them.
Q Most of them spoke German; even the Poles spoke a little German. Then can one not conclude that these people might have been from Eastern Silesia or from West Prussia?
A I cannot say.
Q Then there were three Czechs. Mr. Vorlicek, I think you are of Czech descent, aren't you?
A Yes.
Q But you are from Vienna.
A Yes.
Q It is possible that they were Czechs who were not from Bohemia?
A They told me that they were from Czechoslovakia.
Q Couldn't they have been from Slovakia; from Bratislava; for example?
A No, from Moravia.
Q Very well, Moravia. Then you said there was one German. Do you think that's right?
A No, I think there were two or three.
Q I can tell you that there were more.
A It as possible.
Q Then your statements are not quite correct, are they?
A One can't always remember everything so well.
Q The papers of the gypsies, about their nationality, you didn't see.
A No.
Q Was it customary in a concentration camp to keep one's papers?
A No.
Q Where were the papers kept?
A I don't know.
Q But everyone had a number?
A Yes.
Q Do you know what triangle these people wore?
A Black triangles.
Q Who was given black triangles in the camp?
A The asocial people.
Q Aha! Do you think it is possible that Beiglboeck tried to help his people but that the bad people in the camp administration didn't keep their promises?
A I cannot say.
Q Now, I must put to you that you said the following to the Vienna police -
(Witness looked through the affidavit.)
Q (Continuing) -- it doesn't say that in there. "After the liberation I met a gypsy in Munich who told me, 'I am getting along very well; no one died from the experiments' -- and now comes the im Court No. II, Case No. 1.portant thing:
'but many died later durina a famine.'" Now, think carefully, so that we don't have to get the police records from Vienna. Do you remember saying that?
A I can take an oath that I did not say that.
Q Do you think that the Vienna police official invented it?
A In the first place, I wasn't in Munich; I was only in Dachau.
Q Maybe it says a gypsy from Munich.
A That's right.
Q I ask you above all, did you more than a year ago when it was officially written down, say that people later died in a famine?
A Yes.
Q Who kept the records in the camp during the experiments?
A What kind of records?
Q Records as to the course of the experiments, how much water was drunk, whether people had fever, and so forth.
A The records of fever and pulse, partly Pillwein and partly myself.
DR. STEINBAUER: Mr. President, might I ask that the fever charts be produced, inasmuch as the witness said he helped to record them, that they be shown to him for identification? They are right here.
THE PRESIDENT: Yes, the fever charts may be shown to the witness.
(Charts handed to witness and examined by him.)
Q Are these the records which you kept at the time?
A Yes.
Q Who compiled these records?
A Pillwein and I.
Q Didn't some of the prisoner-doctors write some of these records?
A I don't know.
Q Were the people weighed?
A Yes.
Q Who weighed them?
A Pillwein.
Q Did he always record the weight?
A Yes.
Q Can you show me where he recorded the weight and tell me. in particular who entered these final weights at the right, at the top?
A I was never present when that was done.
Q You don't know?
A No.
Q How were these people quartered? What kind of accommodations wore they given? Were they in dirty barracks, or in clean beds -
A They had nice beds.
Q Did it look like a stall or like a decent hospital?
A No, it didn't look like a stall, but one can't say that it looked like a decent room either.
Q I am afraid I don't understand you.
A It was more like a camp.
Q But it was clean and neat.
A Yes, it was clean.
Q And then when the people left the experiment, were they given food that was more than the camp food or less?
A It was the same as the regular camp diet.
Q Weren't they given additional food?
A I don't know anything about it.
Q Didn't you give out milk just after the experiments were finished?
A I don't know anything about it.
Q But you must know about it, if you helped to distribute the food to these people every day.
A I wasn't there every day.
Q Oh, you weren't there every day? You have already said that nobody died during the experiments, is that true?
A Yes.
Q Now, when were the experiments finished?
A Three weeks later, when I came.
Q When was that? Can you give us the date?
A I can't say.
Q Was it January, February, March or August?
A It was in July or August.
Q Couldn't it have been September? Look at the charts. Look at the charts. The date is on there.
(Examined by the witness.)
A Yes, August -
Q And -- look carefully.
(Charts again examined by witness.)
AAugust, September.
Q That's right: August and September. The last man finished drinking his sea-water and then what happened?
A Then special experiments were performed.
Q Mr. Vorlicek, you don't understand me. When the experiment proper was finished, completely finished.
A Yes?
Q Then what happened? Did they all stay together? Was the laboratory loft there or were things taken away?
A No, it was dissolved. The people wore sent back to the Block.
Q That's the time I want to talk about. Who packed up the things, the bottles, equipment, scales and so forth?
A I don't know.
Q Did you not help?
A No.
Q Were the gypsies still there?
A I don't know, because I went back as a patient.
Q When did you leave?
A I can't say that.
Q Was the hospital where you were sent far away from Station 11?
A There were five Blocks between them.
Q Did you have an opportunity during this period to sec one or another of these people at the beginning of September, the middle of September?
A No.
Q You didn't see any of them?
A No.
Q You didn't see Pillwein either?
A Yes.
Q Who examined the blood?
A They were Frenchmen.
Q Did they know how to do that?
A I don't know.
Q Were they locksmiths, electricians?
A No, they were doctors.
Q. I see, they were doctors. Now we will talk about the weighing. Did the people gain weight or lose weight?
A. They lost weight.
Q. How long did they lose weight?
A. All the time.
Q. As long as they Were in the experiment?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you know, since you helped to write the records, whether, at the end, after the people were out of the experiment, their weight was higher or lower?
A. That I do not know.
Q. Did you see anybody with a high fever?
A. At the most, up to 38 or 30.
Q. 33, or 39. Was that at the beginning of an experiment or at the end?
A. I can't remember that.
Q. Were you ever present when an experiment was stepped or changed?
A. Yes.
Q. How was that done?
A. The patient was sitting and Dr. Beiglboeck undertook the experiment and when the patient began to cry...
Q. No, that is not what I want to know. I want to know how the experiments were stopped in the case of the individual persons. Were they given something to drink, or to eat, or did they just say "You can go now?" Did they give them an injection? What happened?
A. He went back to bed.
Q. When he was given water again, did he recover quickly, or did it take days?
A. I don't know.
Q. Pillwein says in his affidavit that at the end of the exper iment all tho experimental subjects were still there and they were given a few days special care and then released for labor.
Can you confirm this sworn statement of Fritz Pillwein?
A. No.
Q. Why not?
A. Because I didn't take any interest in it.
Q. Do you consider it incorrect?
A. No.
DR. STEINBAUER: I have no further questions.
THE PRESIDENT: Any questions of this witness by any other defense counsel? Any re-direct examination by the Prosecution?
DR. HOCHWALD: No further question on the part of the Prosecution, your Honor.
THE PRESIDENT: The witness is excused from the witness stand, there being no further questions to be propounded to him.
Does the Tribunal understand that the witness, Haagen, is now available?
MR. HARDY: The witness Haagen is now available, your Honor, and will be called by the defense counsel.
DR. TIPP (Counsel for the defendants Schroeder and BeckorFreyseng): With the permission of the Tribunal I should like to call the witness, Haagen, for my two clients.
THE PRESIDENT: The marshal will summon tho witness, Haagen.
DR. TIPP: Mr. President, the witness has been brought from French custody. It is to be expected that he will be put before a Military Tribunal in France. I should be grateful if the Tribunal would inform him that he does not have to testify anything that will incriminate himself, but that, whatever he does say must be the truth, in the customary form.
MR. HARDY: Before the Tribunal advises the witness, may I request how long Dr. Tipp anticipates the examination of this witness will take on his part and how long it will take on the part of defense counsel Fritz for Rose and if any other defense counsel will want to examine him?
THE PRESIDENT: Will counsel enlighten us upon that point?
DR. TIPP: I will need about a day and a half, Mr. President. I believe that Dr. Fritz will not take very long; I think 2 or 3 hours will cover Dr. Fritz' questions, but I cannot say for usre. I also know that my colleague, Dr. Nelte, for Handloser, would like to ask a few questions, but this will not take very long.
MR. HARDY: It seems to me, Your Honor, that a day and a half will be a considerable length of time for examination of this witness. I should think the defense counsel could cooperate with one another and substantially reduce the time.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal would appreciate defense counsel expediting examination of thid and other witnesses to the greatest possible extent.
EUGEN HAAGEN, a witness, took the stand and testified as follows:
BY THE PRESIDENT:
Q. Witness--do you hear me?
A. Yes, I hear you.
Q. You are now about to be sworn as a witness before this Military Tribunal I, trial of the case, the United States versus Karl Brandt and others. I desire to inform you that you are not required to answer any questions which may be propounded to you by any party or by the Tribunal itself if, in your judgment, answering those questions would tend to incriminate yourself. Do you understand that?
A. Yes, I have understood that.
Q. If at any time you are in doubt upon any matter you are privileged to ask the Tribunal's advice upon that subject. Do you understand?
A. Yes, I understand that.
THE PRESIDENT: The witness will now be sworn.
BY JUDGE SEBRING:
Hold up your right hand and be sworn, repeating after me the oath:
I swear by God, the almighty and Omniscient, that I will speak the pure truth and will withhold and all nothing.
( The witness repeated the oath.)
JUDGE SEBRING: You may be seated.
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY DR. TIPP:
Q. Professor, you are here as a witness for the first time before this Tribunal. To avoid difficulties I should like to point out to you, purely from a technical point of view, that to make the translation easier you will have to make a pause between question and answer and wait for the interpreter.
Now, Professor, your name is Dr. Eugen Haagen. You were born on the 17th of June 1898 in Berlin. At present you are a prisoner in the Court Prison in Nurnberg. You are a doctor of medicine by profession and your specialty is hygiene and bacteriology,--is that correct?
A. Yes, that is correct.
Q. Now will you please describe briefly to the Tribunal your medical training and career?
A. From 1919 to 1923 I studied medicine in Berlin. In 1923 I took the State examination. In 1924 I was licensed as a physician and at the same time received the Degree of Doctor of Medicine. After that I studied internal medicine as an intern and later as an assistant at the First Medical Clinic, at the Charite, in Berlin, under Geheimrat Hiss.
Q. Now, professor, please describe your specialized professional training.
A. In 1926 I became a scientific assistant in the Reich Health Office in Berlin, in the Bacteriological Department in Berlin-Dahlem. There I founded the department for virus and tumor research, a new field of research, which was to be set up in the Bacteriological Department of the Reich Health Office at the time. Already as an assistant I did quite a bit of -I may say- fundamental work in the field of experimental virus and tumor research in this position. In 1927 I already became a member of the German Central Committee for fight against cancer. In 1928 I received the annual prize of the Reich Health Office. Since I was very much interested in learning the American methods of virus research, I went, in 1928 as an assistant to the Rockefeller Institute for medical research in New York, where I remained for about one year. There I worked with Dr. Rivers on experimental questions of smallpox and herpes, especially immunology research with the aid of tissue cultures. As a result of this work....
DR. TIPP: Please speak more slowly with this difficult material, witness.
A. The result of this work was published in American scientific journals. During this time I was merely on leave from the Reich Health Office. In 1929 I returned there. In 1930 I became Regierungsrat and was appointed Extraordinary Member of the International Health Department of the Rockefeller Foundation in New York, with the assignment to work at the yellow fever laboratory of this Institute and to try to breed the yellow fever germ, work which had been attempted already for years without any success. I succeeded in 1931-32. This work was published in American and German journals. I succeeded, for the first time, in making artificial pure cultures of the agent causing yellow fever. Important work of American scientists Was built up on this, and this culture made it possible to develop a vaccine against yellow fever which is used throughout the world today and was of great significance for the Allies in tropical warfare.
