MR. HARDY: In that connection, when Dr. Steinbauer turns over the cover and list of names, they should be turned over to the Secretary General, and the prosecution can peruse them by referring to the Secretary General for them. Now, in addition to that there is the problem of the reproduction of these documents. After a period of three or four more days we will be well through this complex of sea water experiments, and I ask that the Tribunal direct the Secretary General's office to have these charts reproduced. I don't think it is necessary to reproduce the two books but we would like to have a photostat copy made of each chart and the back of each, which contains penciled statements, so that the defense counsel may retain a photostatic copy and the prosecution likewise.
THE PRESIDENT: The Secretary General is directed to reproduce these charts by photostat, including these stenographic notes and any other notes which may be found on the back of these charts, and make these available to the prosecution and to the defense.
MR. HARDY: If there is no further discussion concerning these documents and the charts, I would like to call the witness Vorlicek to the stand.
THE PRESIDENT: Has counsel for defendant Beiglboeck anything further?
DR. STEINBAUER: No, I have nothing else to say. I only have one request: that I may be permitted to submit other documents, especially also an expert who never had the opportunity to look at these charts, and that the affidavit which I submit in the document book can be supplemented by the affidavit of Professor Glatzel, and later then shall be permitted to submit the supplementing affidavit, and not submit it now.
THE PRESIDENT: Counsel may submit documents within a reasonable time that he desires to submit them to the Tribunal. They will be admitted.
The Marshal may summon the witness Vorlicek.
(JOSEPH VORLICEK, a witness, took the stand and testified as follows.)
THE PRESIDENT: The witness will stand, hold up his right hand, and be sworn, repeating the oath:
I swear by God, the Almighty and Omniscient, that I will speak the pure truth and will withhold and add nothing.
(The witness repeated the oath.)
Has the prosecution prepared a witness sheet for this witness?
MR. HARDY: Due to the fact he was called without notice I haven't.
THE PRESIDENT: One should be prepared and filed as soon as convenient.
Counsel may proceed.
DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. HARDY:
Q. Witness, your name is Joseph Vorlicek?
A. Yes.
Q. Will you kindly spell your last name, please?
A. V-o-r-l-i-c-e-k.
Q. When and where were you born?
A. I was born in Berndorf, near Vienna.
Q. Will you kindly outline briefly for the Tribunal the extent of your education?
A. For eight years I went to elementary school, public school.
Q. Did you have any further education, witness?
A. No.
Q. What was your occupation prior to the time you were arrested for treason in December 1939?
A. I was a truck driver.
Q. Did you always live in Vienna?
A. Yes.
Q. Are you an Austrian national?
A. Yes.
Q. When was the first time you were placed under arrest?
A. 1939.
Q. Had you ever been arrested for any criminal offense prior to that time?
A. No.
Q. What was the reason for your arrest in 1939?
A. Preparation for high treason.
Q. Who arrested you?
A. The Vienna Gestapo.
Q. Were you given a trial?
A. Yes.
Q. And you were sentenced to imprisonment?
A. Yes.
Q. And for how long?
A. Four years in the penitentiary.
Q. Did you fulfill that sentence?
A. Yes.
Q. After fulfillment of your sentence were you then released?
A. No, then I was sent to Dachau.
Q. When did you arrive at Dachau concentration camp?
A. On the 6th of March, 1944.
Q. How long did you remain at Dachau?
A. Until the liberation by the American 7th Army.
Q. When you arrived in Dachau, what were your duties? Were you assigned to a work detail?
A. No, first I was sent to Block 15. That was for eight days; then I entered a commando work detail.
Q. At any time did you ever work in the concentration camp hospital?
A. I was only a patient in the concentration camp hospital.
Q. Did you ever work in the experimental wards of the hospital?
A. I assisted my comrade Pillwein.
Q. Do you know Professor Dr. Beiglboeck?
A. Yes.
Q. How did you happen to know him?
A. I was in Block 11 where at the time experiments were being conducted.
Q. How did you happen to get your job as a nurse in the experimental ward wherein the sea water experiments were being conducted by Dr. Beiglboeck?
A. Pillwein came to me and asked me whether I would like to help him in his work. The food was better there.
Q. What was that name, please, who first asked you?
A. Pillwein, Fritz.
Q. That is Pillwein?
A. Yes.
Q. When you arrived at the block wherein the sea water experiments were being conducted, had the experiments begun?
A. Yes.
Q. What did you notice concerning the conditions in the experimental station during the course of these experiments?
A. That the people had to suffer from hunger and thirst.
Q. Do you know any of the particulars concerning the differentiation between the experimental groups?
A. As far as I can remember, experiments were carried out with sea water and Schaefer water.
Q. Do you know just what specific test the experimental subjects were put to?
A. No, I don't know that.
Q. Were those particulars made known to you or were they not available to you?
A. I was not convinced about that, and I didn't know what it was all about either.
Q. Did you know a Yugoslavian, a night nurse at the experimental station?
A Yes.
Q What happened to him?
A He came into a penal company because he fell asleep and, therefore, the Gypsies had the opportunity to get water; and then he was put put in the penal company.
Q What is a penal company, witness?
A W ell, that differs - they report to the outlying commandant. One was worse than the other.
Q What reason was he sent to this penal company, was that because he fell asleep on duty at night?
A Yes.
Q Who sent him to the penal company, do you know?
A That went through Beiglboeck.
Q W ell, now were the experimental subjects healthy throughout the experiments?
A Yes.
Q Did they become weakened at all?
A Oh, yes, they did become weaker.
Q Then, they were not healthy throughout the experiments?
A Through the entire experiments, no, but at the beginning they were.
Q Did any one of the subjects ever become violent?
A I don't know.
Q W ell, did any of them ever have cramps and as a result lie on the floor in anguish?
A Yes.
Q Can you tell me about that more specifically, witness?
A I entered the room and there was between two beds a patient, he was lying there, having a. cramp attack, and I didn't know what was going on.
Q W hat happened to that patient?
A He helped himself, that is, in about a half hour, he went back to bed.
Q Were the experimental subjects allowed to leave the room wherein they were kept during the experiment?
A No, that was strictly forbidden.
Q Was the room locked?
A Yes.
Q Did some one guard the room at all times?
A Yes.
Q Were not the experimental subjects allowed to go out into the courtyard next to the experimental block?
A Only those of them who were not at that moment used in the experiments.
Q Were they physically able, some of them, to go out in the yard, if allowed?
A Yes.
Q Witness, in the course of your duties in the experimental station, did you have to do manual labor or that is, wash floors and so forth?
A Yes.
Q Will you tell the Tribunal the incident when you spilled some water on the floor and had to mop it with a cloth?
A Yes. On order of Pillwein I had to give seawater to the Gypsies. In part it was mixed with water and through my carelessness I spilled some water. I went to fetch a rag and I wiped it up, and when I had finished I forgot the rag. The Gypsies took this rag and sucked the water out of it. In the experiment that Beiglboeck conducted he got the idea that the patients had drunk some water, and by threats the Gypsies betrayed me or told that it was I, Beiglboeck came to me and asked me why this happened, I told him what had occurred and he threatened me, if that should ever happen again then I would be put in the experiments myself, would be experimented on myself.
Q Were you sure that he was earnest in this threat?
A Yes.
Q Well, did you feel great danger because of the threat?
A Certainly, that was a matter of course in a camp.
Q Did Beiglboeck ever shout a curse at the experimental subject?
A Frequently, even.
Q And, he was extremely severe with them?
A Not always, only sometimes.
Q Did the experimental subjects ever ask for relief and want to quit the experiments?
A No, they didn't try that, because they knew that it wouldn't do any good anyhow.
Q Well, were these experimental subjects volunteers, witness?
AAs far as I know they were not.
Q Well, did they ever volunteer for any special commando or some such thing?
A Well, this is how it happened. Since I know the Slavic language, and there were some Czechoslovakians among them, I spoke with them and they told me that they came from Auschwitz concentration camp; they had been asked who wanted to volunteer for good outside assignments; some of them reported, and only when they came to Dachau did they find out what it was about.
Q Did the experimental subjects indicate to you that they were happy to be experimented on?
A No.
Q Do you know the nationality of the various subjects?
A For the most part I do.
Q Can you tell the Tribunal the nationality of the various subjects, as near as you can recollect?
A There were Czechs, Poles, Hungarians, Austrians, and Germans.
Q How do you know that these subjects were of those various nationalities?
A Because I know the Czech language; therefore, I could speak to the Poles and the Czechs. 9388
Q Now, during the course of the experiments, that is in the experimental station, itself, did you ever see any one die as a result of the experiments?
A No.
Q Do you know whether or not any one died while in the experimental station?
A Only once the experiment lasted for three months. Once after the experiment I met a Gypsy and he told me about a comrade who had died. I did not ask him why he died.
Q Just a moment, witness, I want to confine your testimony at this point to your knowledge of the conditions, and whether or not deaths occurred while the experiments were being conducted in the experimental station. We will get to the deaths in the hospital or in another section of the camp later. Now, during the course of the experiments are you aware of any deaths?
A No.
Q Were any of the experimental subjects severely ill, to your knowledge?
A No.
Q Can you tell us whether or not it would have been possible that some one could have died during the course of the experiments in the experimental station without your having known about it?
A That, I can't tell.
Q What happened to the experimental subjects at the completion of the experiments?
A They were dismissed and. turned over to the working block.
Q Did some of them go to the hospital?
A I don't know anything about that.
Q Well, were all 44 subjects dismissed at the same time or had some of them been dismissed intermittently throughout the experiments?
AAs far as I know all of them were dismissed at once, at the same time.
Q Did you have the impression that some of the experimental subjects were ill and that they would not live much longer?
A I did have that impression, yes; that these people would not live much longer.
Q At the completion of the experiments did you, then, assume new duties?
A I don't know.
Q Did you, assume new duties, you, yourself?
A No.
Q Well, where did you go to work after the experiments were completed?
A Then I became a patient in my block.
Q Were you able to ascertain whether or not any of the inmates used in the experiments were in the hospital?
A I don't know.
Q Now, would you kindly tell the Tribunal about the conversation you had with the experimental subject named Franz, after the completion of the experiments?
AAbout three months after the experiments I was already in another block; I met one of the patients and his name was Franz. We had a conversation and he told me during that conversation that one of his comrades had died already.
Q.- Did he mean one of the persons used in the experiments?
A.- Yes.
Q.- All right.
A.- I asked him whether he died as a result of the experiment or through hunger typhoid. I can't remember any more what his answer was to my question.
Q.- Do you have any idea whether he tried to convey the thought to you that he died as a result of the experiments or whether he died because of the conditions in the camp; or can't you remember that specifically?
A.- I can't remember any more.
MR. HARDY: I have no further questions. Your Honor.
THE PRESIDENT: I have just been informed by the Marshal that the witness Mettbach is not available for today and his presence cannot be procured this afternoon. Can you use the witness Haagen? Do you desire to call the witness Haagen?
MR. HARDY: The witness Haagen is being called by Dr. Tipp, but he cancelled calling the witness Haagen. The witness Haagen is going to be on the stand for two or three days, Your Honor. If Dr. Tipp can be located today we will call the witness Haagen, that is, if the cross examination of Vorlicek will not take up too much time this afternoon by Dr. Steinbauer.
THE PRESIDENT: Did you say that Dr. Tipp had cancelled his application for the witness?
MR. HARDY: No, he had told the Marshal not to bring the witness up this afternoon, but to bring him up in the morning.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal will now be in recess, and during the recess we can ascertain what can be done.
(A recess was taken)
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal is again in session.
THE PRESIDENT: I understand that counsel for the Prosecution has concluded his direct examination of the witness.
MR. HARDY: I have one or two questions in summation to ask the witness, if it please the Tribunal.
THE PRESIDENT: Proceed.
BY MR. HARDY:
Q. Mr. Vorlicek, have you ever appeared before a Tribunal as a witness before?
A. Yes.
Q. Before this Tribunal I want you to understand that you can clearly testify as to any facts which you have knowledge of concerning the activities in the experimental station at Dachau wherein the sea water experiments took place, and I want you to feel perfectly at liberty to express any opinions you have concerning the experiments and any of the activities in connection with the experiments. Now in summation, Mr. Vorlicek, it is my understanding that you state that the subjects used did not volunteer for the experiments, is that correct?
A. I can't imagine volunteering in a camp.
Q. By any stretch of the imagination could you imagine that they were volunteers in the true sense of the word?
A. No, I can't believe that.
Q. Did the experimental subjects themselves tell you whether or not they volunteered for the experiments?
A. They told mo that they did not volunteer.
Q. Who told you the story concerning the special Kommando that they volunteered fur while in Auschwitz?
A. The Czechs told me about that.
Q. How often did you talk to the experimental subjects?
A. Every day.
Q. And you were certain from your conversation with these experimental subjects that some of the subjects were Poles, some of them were Czechs, and some were Austrians and Hungarians?
f
A. Yes.
Q. Were there any Russians among the experimental subjects?
A. I do not know that.
Q. Were there any Germans among the experimental subjects?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you have anything further you wish to tell the Tribunal concerning these experiments?
A. No, I have nothing else to say.
HR. HARDY: No further questions, Your Honor.
THE PRESIDENT: Defense counsel may cross examine the witness.
CROSS EXAMINATION BY DR. STEINBAUER (For the defendant Beiglboeck):
Q. Witness, how often have you been examined as a witness on the sea water question?
A. Once.
Q. But I have two affidavits, both from the 9th of May. Who took down these affidavits and why were there two?
A. That statement was given at that time to Dr. Alexander only once.
Q. But we have two affidavits which were signed by you. I have them here.
A. Probably there are just two copies.
Q. Did you dictate it or did you just sign it?
A. I dictated it myself.
Q. Now I must ask you, long before that in the spring of 1946 weren't you examined once by someone else?
A. Yes, but nothing was written down.
Q. Well, that was a long time ago. The Vienna police took a record because I read it myself.
A. That is possible, but I didn't sign anything.
Q. Well, you were examined by the Vienna police, too, you remember that?
A. Yes.
Q. Now I should like to ask you the following: As soon as the gypsies arrived, did they come to the experimental station or later?
A. About a week later.
Q. And what happened during this week?
A. I don't know.
Q. Were people already undergoing the experiments? Were the people already drinking sea water or starving, or what was going on?
A. I don't know. I only know that when I came there new experiment were begun.
Q. Is it right that you came there because your friend Pillwein asked the professor to take you in and this facilitated the situation for you?
A. Whether that went through Beiglboeck I don't know, Pillwein came and got me himself.
Q. I don't imagine Pillwein had the authority to take people into the experiments on his own initiative, that is, as nurses?
A. I was not taken as a nurse.
Q. You were an assistant nurse.
A. No, I was not an assistant nurse. I was a patient. I just helped Pillwein.
Q. You helped the nurse?
A. Yes.
Q. And what was the name of the station? What number did it have?
A. I don't know.
Q. Perhaps you remember that it was roman numeral one over arabic one?
A. I cannot say.
Q. Do you know a station I a?
A. No.
Q. But at what station were you yourself when you were in the hospital?
A. In 9/4.
Q. Do you know the typhoid station?
A. Yes.
Q. What was the number of that?
A. I don't remember.
Q. Now you say, "Before I came there, a Yugoslav nurse who was on night duty was thrown out because he left the key in the door and therefore the patients were able to go out and drink water." And then you go on to say, "Afterwards one of the greens - that is a criminal - came who beat the people and he was transferred too."
A. No, he was before the Yugoslav.
MR. HARDY: Your Honor, may I request that the affidavit signed, by the witness Vorlicek be submitted to him so that he can follow Dr. Steinbauer.
THE PRESIDENT: The affidavits may be submitted to the witness.
(The witness is given the affidavits.)
BY DR. STEINBAUER:
Q. Do you have it? One of your statements begins, "At the time of the occupation of Austria..." and the other one begins, "After I was arrested in 1939 by the Gestapo..."
A. Yes.
Q. Now, I am taking the one which begins, "At the time of the occupation of Austria..." You say, "About July 1944 I was transferred to the experimental station."
A. Yes.
Q. "These experiments had in part already been started when I came there."
A. Yes.
Q. And now comes the story about this man with the green insignia and the Yugoslav. Is it not true that it was the other way around?
A. No, no. First the green one and then the Yugoslav came.
Q. Well, please read what it says in the affidavit. It says exactly the opposite.
A. There must be a mistake here.
Q. It's incorrect what it says here.
A. Yes.
Q. Can you remember the name of this man with the green insignia?
A. Only his first name: Max.
Q. Max - oh, yes, that famous Max. Then you say, "The experimental subjects were divided into groups. One group was injected with a red serum."' I have asked so many people and nobody knows any red serum. Are you color blind, Mr. Vorlicek?
A. No, I was wrong. That was when the blood was taken.
Q. Yes, that is very important. There is a red poison. You have to be very careful. Then this red serum is wrong?
A. Yes.
Q. And what did you think it was?
A. I had no idea.
Q. Could it have been blood which had been through the centrifuge?
A. I don't know.
Q. Then you obviously withdraw this testimony that one group was injected with red serum as being incorrect?
A. Yes.
Q. Now you tell the incident about the guinea pig. You say that Beiglboeck used to yell at the gypsies frequently. Why?
A. Because they didn't do what they were supposed to.
Q. Well, if you were in charge of an experiment or in charge of a labor detail and the people were always doing something else than they were supposed to do, would you praise them or reprimand them?
A. Certainly, I would scold them.
Q. Then can't you understand that Beiglboeck reproached you for helping the prisoners drink water?
A. What did you say, doctor?
Q. Do you admit that Beiglboeck had a certain justification in making charges against you and reproaching you for helping the prisoners drink water?
A. I cannot say.
Q. How did Beiglboeck treat the people who were not in the experiment?
A. He treated them well.
Q. Did he take an interest in their food?
A. Pillwein and I went and got the food.
Q. And you certainly saw to it that your comrades were fed decently.
A. Decent food means something else to me.
Q. Well, today we don't have enough to eat either. It always depends on the circumstances. You and Pillwein distributed the food?
A. Yes.
Q. Did Beiglboeck see to it that it was distributed correctly?
A. No, he didn't.
Q. Did he have any reason to mistrust you?
A. No.
Q. Do you know that he threw Max out because he distributed the food unjustly?
A. I only heard that.
Q. Do you really think you can say that Beiglboeck would have made you into a guinea pig?
A. Yes.
Q. Why?
A. That was a matter of course in the came. If one had anything to do with the SS--
Q. Was Dr. Beiglboeck in the SS?
THE PRESIDENT: The translation didn't come through.
BY DR. STEINBAUER:
Q. You have to wait, witness, until the translation comes through. I ask you, was Professor Beiglboeck in the SS?
A. I assumed that he was.
Q. What uniform did he wear?
A. Brown.
Q. A brown uniform?
A. Yes, yellowish brown.
q. And what kind of shoulder insignia did he have?
A. I don't remember.
Q. Did Beiglboeck ever beat anyone?
A. No.
Q. Did he threaten anyone with a revolver?
A. No.
Q. Did Beiglboeck give the people cigarettes?
A. Yes.
Q. How many cigarettes did the people in the experiment get?
A. I don't know exactly - two or three.
Q. Two or three cigarettes. In addition to these two or three cigarettes, did Beiglboeck give them other cigarettes?
A. I don't know.
Q. Do you consider it possible that he did?
A. Yes.
Q. Did he help the gypsies in any way?
A. I don't know.
Q. Do you know that one of the gypsies had a so-called escape point on his insignia?
A. Yes.
THE PRESIDENT: Wait a minute, witness. After your counsel propounds a question to you, you must wait a moment before you answer the question so that the interpreters may complete the interpretation of the question.
THE WITNESS: Yes.
BY DR. STEINBAUER:
Q Witness, if someone performed an experiment well, didn't Beiglboeck give him more cigarettes? Think it over.
A I don't know anything about that.
Q Now, let's come back to this escape insignia. Did one of the gypsies have this escape point?
A Yes.
Q Do you perhaps remember his name?
A No.
Q Was there a gypsy who had two escape points?
A I can't remember that either.
Q Do you know that Professor Beiglboeck tried to help these people get rid of their escape points?
A Pillwein told me about that.
Q You heard about it, then. Now about the nationality of the people: In your affidavits you said that you think -- look at your affidavit -- that they all spoke German?
A Most of them.
Q Most of them spoke German; even the Poles spoke a little German. Then can one not conclude that these people might have been from Eastern Silesia or from West Prussia?
A I cannot say.
Q Then there were three Czechs. Mr. Vorlicek, I think you are of Czech descent, aren't you?
A Yes.
Q But you are from Vienna.
A Yes.
Q It is possible that they were Czechs who were not from Bohemia?
A They told me that they were from Czechoslovakia.
Q Couldn't they have been from Slovakia; from Bratislava; for example?
A No, from Moravia.
Q Very well, Moravia. Then you said there was one German. Do you think that's right?
A No, I think there were two or three.
Q I can tell you that there were more.
A It as possible.
Q Then your statements are not quite correct, are they?
A One can't always remember everything so well.
Q The papers of the gypsies, about their nationality, you didn't see.
A No.
Q Was it customary in a concentration camp to keep one's papers?
A No.
Q Where were the papers kept?
A I don't know.
Q But everyone had a number?
A Yes.
Q Do you know what triangle these people wore?
A Black triangles.
Q Who was given black triangles in the camp?
A The asocial people.
Q Aha! Do you think it is possible that Beiglboeck tried to help his people but that the bad people in the camp administration didn't keep their promises?
A I cannot say.
Q Now, I must put to you that you said the following to the Vienna police -
(Witness looked through the affidavit.)
Q (Continuing) -- it doesn't say that in there. "After the liberation I met a gypsy in Munich who told me, 'I am getting along very well; no one died from the experiments' -- and now comes the im Court No. II, Case No. 1.portant thing: