A.- The official arrest of Dr. Hoven I heard very little, but I assume that subsequently to this arrest I was immediately sent away from Buchenwald because it was very probable that the SS were convinced that I might have seen too much with Hoven and that it was high time, after Hoven went, that I went too. I'm absolutely convinced that the reason why Dr. Hoven was arrested was this. The SS camp administration quite definitely did not fail to see the collaboration between the illegal camp administration and Dr. Hoven. In order not to make themselves ridiculous they couldn't obviously arrest Dr. Hoven and say "You have collaborated with the prisoners" because the prisoners who collaborated with Dr. Hoven could well be hanged without a word of treason ever passing their lips. We certainly saw this case masses of times in Buchenwald because people being under suspicion of being in the illegal camp administration went to the so-called "bunker" in Buchenwald where they died in extreme misery ; fortunately, however, without ever gibing their comrades away. So I think it would have been quite useless if Dr. Hoven had been arrested officially in order to get from him the names of the illegal camp administration because I don't believe Dr. Hoven would have become that weak.
Q.- Will you please describe to the Tribunal how it happened that you arrived here as a witness ?
A.- I road in the news papers that, at present, Dr. Hoven was in the prison in Nurnberg and that he was being held responsible for the euthanasia program before the International Military Tribunal in Nurnberg and, at the same time, I read that a certain Dr. Gawlik had taken over the defense of this defendant. Now, since I owe my own life to Dr. Hoven, and since I have seen so mano good deeds done to me during the time of my detention, I came here as a voluntary witness. Neither the prosecution nor the defense asked me to do that and it's really incomprehensible to me that all these men who once lived well thanks to Dr. Hoven and who, today, have very important positions in Germany, and I'll just briefly mention the Vice President of Thuringia here in this connection.
I do not understand the personal cowardice of this man that he hasn't come to Nurnberg today to say "That's how the situation is". There are other people too who are holding high police offices in the Russian Zone today. Why do these people not consider it necessary that the man who has done so much good for them and saved their lives or made their lives easy for them during many years of detention - that these people didn't come here today. I'd also like to say that it was tried to create difficulties for me. When it became known to the Committee for Racially Persecuted People that I would appear as a witness in Nurnberg, it was actually tried quite shortly beforehand to have me imprisoned. They weren't even ashamed to talk to fellow prisoners behind my back and ask them if it wasn't possible that I might have beaten a Jew on some occasion or whether there wasn't some reason for my arrest thus preventing my journey to Nurnberg. But these men didn't score in that effort.
Q.- Thank you. I have no further questions to the witness, Mr. President.
THE PRESIDENT : The Tribunal will now be in recess until 1:30 o'clock (a recess was taken until 1330 hours, 5 June 1947) AFTERNOON SESSION (The hearing reconvened at 1330 hours, 5 June 1947.)
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal is again in session.
May it please Your Honors, the defendant Rudolf Brandt has resumed his place in the courtroom.
THE PRESIDENT: The Secretary General will note for the record that Rudolf Brandt has resumed his place in the dock.
Do any of the defense counsel have any questions of this witness?
DR. STEINBAUER: Steinbauer for defendant Beiglboeck.
BY DR. STEINBAUER:
Q. Witness, I was interested in what you said at the conclusion, namely, that you were subjected to severe pressure not to appear here as a witness. I ask you, do you believe that if a former hospital capo in a concentration camp today is the regional chief, let us say, of the Communist Party in a country not under American protection, would he have enough power that former concentration camp inmates would be afraid to oppose him?
A. To this question I can only say that efforts were made to make difficulties for me before my departure for Nuernberg.
Q. Please speak a little louder. I don't hear you.
A. I repeat, I can only say that difficulties were made for me before my departure for Nuernberg.
Q. Then you believe that if less intelligent former concentration camp inmates are subjected to such pressure they are likely not to tell the truth?
A. I consider that quite possible.
Q. How long were you in a concentration camp?
A. From 1940 to 1944.
Q. Then you had rather exhaustive experience with concentration camps?
A. Yes, that can be said.
Q. Were you detained in one concentration camp or in different camps?
A. I was first in Dachau, and from December 1940 to 20 September 1943 in Buchenwald, and from 20 September 1943 until 16 July 1944 I was in Auschwitz.
Q. Then the inmates of the concentration camp were they persecuted by the SS and were there political struggles for power within the concentration camp?
A. I would say the inmates had more to fear of those latter struggles for power than of the SS, because the motto in the camp was "He who doesn't toe the line or it is believed he doesn't toe the line," death sentence is already prepared for him.
Q. Then there was a fight between the blues and the reds in the camp?
A. It would be better to say between the greens and the reds.
Q. Within these individual groups, let us say within the red group, were there also not struggles for power?
A. I can answer that question only in regards to Camp Buchenwald, and I can say that as long as the center of the illegal camp management was in the camp hospital it was possibly determined through Dr. Hoven's protection, when the political prisoners, particularly if they were former communists, were practically united, and Buchenwald was the only camp group this organization was extended to all members of the camp no matter what their nationality was.
Q. Witness, because you just mentioned Buchenwald, were there gypsies in that camp?
A. Quite a few, indeed.
Q. What colors did the gypsies carry?
A. You refer to what triangle they wore?
Q. Yes.
A. They wore the black one designating them as asocial.
Q. I must tell you that in the book "SS State" by Kogon it is started that the gypsies wore the brown triangle.
A. Insofar as I know, the brown sign was done away with in Buchenwald in 1940, and all gypsies arrested for racial reasons were asocial.
In other words, from 1940 on there were no gypsies in the camp who were not designated in the filing system as asocial, as unwilling to work.
Q. Now we have these various designations, the reds, blues, and browns. Did any of these groups have more opportunity to escape from the camp more quickly than other groups?
A. The green prisoners, the professional criminals, had no chance whatever to be released from the camp. The political prisoners - of them I know only three or four cases who were released through channels. To be sure, there were some releases which I said this morning which Dr. Hoven was behind. The black ones had quite a good chance of being released.
Q. And according to what you have said the gypsies belonged to this class.
A. I have already said so.
Q. Let me ask you again, did the gypsies belong among those who had a better chance of early release?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you know whether there was a tuberculosis station in Dachau?
A . I know about this Tuberculosis Station from my own experience from the time I myself was at Dachau, moreover, I can state that from my Auschwitz time, we sent tubercular persons if they were native Germans to Dachau for treatment.
Q. Now, since you said you know about this station yourself; how was it kept?
A. I must say I saw this station only from the outside, but I know from prisoner nurses with whom I associated in Auschwitz that the tuberculosis station in Dachau was very well equipped.
Q. Now, if a prisoner had the misfortune of falling sick with tuberculosis in Dachau, do you believe that he was taken into and cared for in the tuberculosis station, or do you believe he was killed because he had tuberculosis?
A. The important thing in the camp was always whether the prisoner had some connections either with the camp doctor or with the illegal camp administration and if so, he was immediately taken into the Tuberculosis station.
Q. Did you ever hear that prisoners were used in experiments, medical experiments?
A. So far as I know there were high altitude experiments in Dachau for the Luftwaffe, then I think there were experiments in making sea-water potable and experiments of that sort, however, I am not exactly informed on this.
Q. That is not important, but can you tell me perhaps were these people forced to participate in these experiments or was there an opportunity for them to apply?
A. Please imagine the position in which a prisoner finds himself, who for many years has not been able to eat until his appetite is satisfied and imagine how he think if he applies for such and such an experiment, he will receive double or triple rations. You can readily see that hundreds and even more prisoners would make themselves available simply for the purely human urge to have a full meal.
Q. Now, witness, you said that for an inmate of the camp it was difficult to know very much about what went on in the hospital; what opportunities did a person entirely outside of the camp, let us say myself living in Vienna, have to observe what went on in Dachau or Buchenwald?
A. I can only give you the one answer; I myself did not know what went on in there until I myself was inside.
Q. Thank you, I have no further questions.
THE PRESIDENT: Are there any further questions to be propounded to the witness by defense counsel? If not, the prosecution may cross examine.
BY MR. HARDY:
Q. Mr. Dorn, how long did you work in the quarries at Buchenwald?
A. From December of 1940 until I first fell sick around the middle of January, then with short interruptions I was in the hospital and then until March of 1941 I worked in the quarries.
Q. How many people did you see killed there?
A. How many in the quarries?
Q. Yes.
A. That is a very sad chapter. The prisoner Kapo Herzog, a man of ill repute, treated the prisoners exactly in accord with what his mood happened to be and it is true that people were mistreated for so long they finally died.
Q. Didn't they actually take inmates to the quarries to execute them?
A. Mr. Prosecutor, in the early morning, when the prisoners were leaving the camp, the Camp Commander Schobert frequently ordered that when the commando came back in the evening there were to be no more Jews in it. I believe that you understand what that means.
Q . How long was Schobert Camp Commander?
A. As far as I know, until the camp was liberated.
Q. When Koch Camp Commander?
A. I must correct; Schobert was not the Camp Commander but the administrator of the Preventive Custody Camp.
Q. What kind of a man was Camp Commandant Koch?
A. I must say that I saw Commandant Koch only very infrequently, but so far as I recall, he was a man with no conscience and a criminal, that is really the only description that one can find for that man.
Q. When did you first enter Block 46?
A. Approximately three or four days after the first experimental series was begun.
Q. How often did you frequent Block 46?
A. You mean the entire period of time during which I was in Buchenwald as a nurse; if you do, I must say that I cannot give you the exact number of times, but that it was very often.
Q. Did you go there two or three times a week, or two or three times a month; just how often?
A. I believe I can state that I was there twice a week.
Q. Twice a week; however, you had no duties to preform at Block 46?
A. No, in Block 46 I had no work to do, only occasionally I had to take medicine and drugs there.
Q. Then your only reason for frequenting Block 46 was to deliver drugs and medicine; is that correct?
A. I frequently had to take food there to, butter which was given as an additional ration and which I received in the kitchen to be taken to Block 46.
Q. Well, then, whenever you paid a visit to Block 46 how much time did you spend there; ten minutes, two hours a whole day?
A. Sometimes I was there for an hour and conversed with the nurses there.
Q. Did you ever see any experiments being conducted?
A. I saw the patients daily, I also often asked them how things were going with them or what they were doing, but I could not see the experiments themselves since Dr. Ding never took me inside the Block.
Q. Did you ever see Dr. Ding administer any injections to the experimental subjects or perform any of the experiments thereon at any time?
A. No.
Q. Then, you are not at liberty to tell the Tribunal who experimented in block 46?
A. Mr. Prosecutor, I am in a position to do so because I was on very friendly terms with the nurse Jellinek and he frequently told me who was doing what in Block 46.
Q. Did any of the nurses ever tell you that Dr. Hoven was performing experiments in Block 46?
A. No.
Q. Would it have been possible for Dr. Hoven to perform experiments in Block 46 without your knowledge?
A. I hardly believe so, Mr. Prosecutor, because such things would immediately have become generally known in the camp in our circles.
Q. Suppose Fritz Kirchheimer stated that he personally saw Dr. Hoven experiment on subjects, in Block No. 46?
DR. GAWLIK: I object to that question, Kirchheimer never said such a thing. I wish the Prosecutor to show the transcript to the witness so he may see what Fritz Kirchheimer actually did say. I know that Kirchheimer stated he never saw Dr. Hoven giving an injection.
MR. HARDY: Pardon me, Your Honor, I did not say injection. I said experimented on. Fritz Kirchheimer testified here that Dr. Hoven tied the cage of lice on inmates logs in Block 46, if I recollect correctly.
Did Kirchheimer ever tell you about that witness?
DR. GAWLIK: Mr. President, I believe that the ruling of the court is that the transcript should be shown to the witness so he himself can read what the witness Kirchheimer said.
MR. HARDY: Your Honor, I don't think that is necessary. I will ask him whether or not Kirchheimer ever told him that he saw Dr. Hoven ever experiment on inmates in the camp.
THE PRESIDENT: Then you will withdraw the previous question?
MR. HARDY: That was my previous question, Your Honor, I asked if he ever talked to Kirchheimer and if Kirchheimer ever told him that Dr. Hoven ever experimented on inmates, that was the import of my question.
THE PRESIDENT: The translation must have come through wrong then, Mr. Hardy, I did not understand you. The prosecutor will propound his question again.
MR. HARDY: Did Fritz Kirchheimer ever tell you that he
MR. HARDY: Did Fritz Kirchheimer ever tell you that he saw Dr. Hoven performing experiments on human beings in Block No. 46?
THE WITNESS: No, moreover Fritz Kirchheimer was, so far as I know, employed only in the bath and had had no opportunity to observe the functioning physician during his experiments.
MR. HARDY: If Fritz Kirchheimer stated that he had the opportunity to observe that; would you tend to disbelieve him?
DR. GAWLIK : I again ask that the prosecutor put the transcript to the witness. I deny that that statement was ever made by Kirchheimer, in my recollection. The witness Kirchheimer did not say that and, in order to be sure on this matter, I ask again that the transcript he put to the witness so that he can see what really was said.
THE PRESIDENT : I think in order to make the question proper the transcript should be procured.
MR. HARDY : Strike the question, Your Honor. I will not bother to put it to the witness yet. I will save that for the brief.
BY MR. HARDY :
Q.- Did you know one of your colleages, an inmate named Leeuwarden, spelled L e e u w a r d e n ?
A.- No.
Q.- Did you know another one of your colleages, a witness named Schalker, S c h a l k e r ?
A.- No.
Q.- Now, you say when this first shipment of lice arrived. Can you tell us where it came from ?
A.- So far as I know, from Cracow.
Q.- How did you happen to know that it arrived from Cracow ?
A.- There was general talk about it in that camp and it was said that the Wehrmacht officer who brought the second shipment of lice had come from Cracow from the Wehrmacht Institute there.
Q.- Did you see the lice ?
A.- I personally did not.
Q.- Did you see the lice destroyed ?
A.- No.
Q.- Do you know whether or not it was destroyed before or after use in the experimental block 46 ?
A.- The first shipment was certainly burned before any experiments were done with it.
Q.- Who told you that ?
A.- In the whole hospital that was well known to all the nurses.
Q.- Who told you that ?
A.- My superior in the illegal organization.
Q.- Who ?
A.- Hollmuth Diemann.
Q.- Is he the man who was one of the doctors working in the hospital barracks ?
A.- No.
Q.- What was his position in the hospital barracks ?
A.- Hellmuth Diemann was a prisoner nurse.
Q.- When did the second shipment of lice arrive ?
A.- That was at the end of 1942.
Q.- Did you see it.
A.- No.
Q.- Did you see it destroyed ?
A.- No.
Q.- Do you know whether or not it was destroyed before or after use in the experimental block 46 ?
A.- It was burned after the lice had been placed on the prisoners for a few minutes. When the person who brought this shipment, the Wehrmacht officer, had left block 46, the cages of lice were taken from block 46 and burned.
Q.- Who told you that ?
A.- In the illegal organization that was explicitly made known, because we prisoners, so far as we knew what was going on in block 46, were just as afraid of an attack of disease as anyone else who had anything to do with block 46. For this reason these measures were taken for our own reassurance and so far as possible to reassure all the prisoners in the camp, and for this reason this information was immediately made known.
Q.- Who was present in the illegal camp management when these lice were tied on to the legs of inmates ?A.- Very probably, only the prisoner capo of block 46, Arthur Dietzsch.
Q.- Was he a member of the illegal camp management ?
A.- Mr. Prosecutor, in this instance, you are asking too much of me here ; if you ask me about the organization of the illegal camp management, I cannot answer this question on the basis of a list. I can't say such and such or such and such a prisoner was a member. I can only tell you who my superior was, who gave me my instructions, and to whom I reported. It was absolutely necessary to build the illegal organization according to this pattern because if a member of the organization was tortured by the SS in the Buchenwald bunker then, at most, he could only name one man who was his superior and only one mane was his inferior. Therefore, he could betray only two people ; and, if the camp or organization had been differently set up there would have been a great misfortune in the camp.
Q.- How many criminals were members of the illegal camp management ?
A.- I believe that is one of the hardest questions that you could have asked me. In view of the fact, that I am testifying under oath, I cannot answer that question definitely.
Q.- Was Arthur Dietzsch, hospital capo of block 46, a criminal prisoner ?
A.- No, Arthur Dietzsch was a political prisoner of many years standing.
Q.- Are you sure ?
A.- Yes.
Q.- Do you know why he was incarcerated in a concentration camp ?
A.- Dietzsch was a former Reichswehr officer and had been punished because within the Reichswehr he had carried Communistic propaganda.
Q.- Had Arthur Dietzsch been in jail for some 20 years ?
A.- I believe he had served 15 years in a penitentiary and from 1934 on he had been in various concentration camps.
Q.- He was classified as a political prisoner ?
A.- Political prisoner, yes.
Q.- And he reported to the illegal camp management that the lice in cages were tied to the thighs of experimental subjects ?
A.- Yes.
Q.- Who tied them on the thighs of the experimental subjects ?
A.- So far as I know, Arthur Dietzsch himself.
Q.- Who was present ?
A.- Dr. Ding, and a doctor from Berlin.
Q.- Was Dr. Hoven there ?
A.- That I cannot answer.
Q.- Was Fritz Kirchheimer there ?
A.- He probably was because Kirchheimer was one of the strangest men in the camp and he was used for such services.
Q.- You state that Dr. Hoven, in order to stop the use of these lice, called the SS officer on the telephone and told him if he didn't return in the truck that he would have to walk later in the evening. Is that in this connection, that you told us that ?
A.- I didn't quite understand the question.
Q.- On direct examination you stated that the second shipment of lice was to be used in an experiment and was, in fact, used and that Dr. Hoven, knowing that the lice was being used, attempted to interrupt the experiments by calling the SS officer from Berlin by telephone and telling him that it would not be possible for him to return to Weimar later in the evening and that the only transportation available was a truck that was leaving immediately and then the SS officer took the available transportation which enable Hoven to destroy the lice. Is that what you tried to convey to us ?
A.- Yes, but apparently there was an error in the translation. It was not an SS officer but a member of the German Wehrmacht.
Q.- I see. Where did Hoven telephone from ?
A.- I have already mentioned this morning that the prison hospital had direct telephonic connections with Block 46 so that there was an opportunity that anybody who had to be called up at any time could be called up.
Q.- Where did Hoven call this Wehrmacht officer from ? Was Hoven in the hospital barracks and the Wehrmacht officer in Block 46 ?
A.- At that time Hoven was in the hospital and was brought by a prisoner immediately to block 46 and apparently was informed by this prisoner in the hospital what was going on at that time in block 46.
Q.- Then he telephoned the Wehrmacht officer and told him a truck was ready to leave. Is that right ?
A.- No. Dr. Hoven then returned with the prisoner from the hospital the one hundred meters to block 46, and called the motor pool.
Q.- Where did the use of the telephone come into play ?
A.- In the hospital.
Q.- Did you hear the telephone call ?
A.- No, but I know all about it because this was a matter that was of vast importance to us prisoners.
Q.- Now, Dr. Hoven telephoned the Wehrmacht officer from the hospital, is that right, and told him the truck was leaving ?
A.- No, Dr. Hoven telephoned in the hospital to the motor pool and had the truck arranged for and thereupon he returned in person from the hospital with this prisoner to Block 46 and probably told this officer personally that the truck was ready for him, that he should seize this opportunity because otherwise he would have to make the long trip from Buchenwald to Weimar that evening on foot.
Q. Then, Hoven proceeded to destroy the lice after the Wehrmacht officer left?
A. Yes.
Q. What was Dr. Ding doing all of this time?
A. Dr. Ding accompanied the Wehrmacht officer to the gate.
Q. Well, was Dr. Hoven the superior of Dr. Ding? Could he destroy the equipment Dr. Ding was using in his experiments without the permission of Dr. Ding.
A. No, it was quite the contrary, but Dr. Hoven was the man in the camp who stood on the best terms with the prisoners and who would normally take charge of such a matter as this. I don't think Ding would have done anything in this case.
Q. Ding didn't have anything to say about it?
A. I am sorry I didn't quite understand the question.
Q. Ding didn't have anything to say about the destruction of the lice?
A. I don't believe Ding knew anything about this occurrence at all.
Q. How much authority could Dr. Hoven exercise over block 46?
A. I know for certain that Dr. Hoven only once was put in as Dr. Ding's deputy for a short period of time. Dr. Ding himself had typhus at that time and, I believe, he was on leave for convalescence.
Q. I am not referring to when Dr. Ding was on leave. When Dr. Ding was present in Block 46, how much authority did Hoven have ever it?
A. None at all.
Q. He had authority to go in and destroy the lice Dr. Ding was using?
A. Mr. Prosecutor at the time when Dr. Hoven destroyed the lice that was something he did on his own initiative, and if Dr. Ding had got wind of that he would immediately have had Dr. Hoven punished.
Q. Well now then when Dr. Ding came back and couldn't find his lice, didn't he know about it?
A. Mr. Prosecutor, the situation was often such, that Dr. Ding just came to the camp for half an hour, ordered something or other and then left the camp and then paid no further attention to the matter.
Q. Dr. Ding certainly knew whether or not he had experimental subjects that had been infected with lice, didn't he?
A. Yes, that he knew; but if Dr. Ding were told that the cages had leaks in them and that they constituted a danger of infecting not only the experimental persons but for everyone in the camp, including the SS officers, I am sure Dr. Ding would have washed his hands and left the camp, because Dr. Ding was not much of a here.
Q. Who was the most powerful man, Dr. Ding or Dr. Hoven?
A. Without any doubt, Ding but so far as the illegal activities were concerned, Hoven was the man with more courage, and Ding was a conscientious SS man.
Q. When Dr. Ding was absent from Buchenwald who was in charge of Block 46?
A. Dr. Hoven was designated as his deputy, but I must add here that Dr. Hoven did not have the plenipotentiary powers to conclude the experimental series or begin a new one.
Q. Would they just stop the experiments and not do anything on them while Dr. Ding was away? In other words, if a person had typhus for experimental purposes, and they were to give him a vaccine or inoculate him later in the course of the experimental series and Dr. Ding left Buchenwald, Dr. Hoven became the deputy in name only and did'nt do anything about the experimental series and subjects used out there and just completely neglected it all together?
A. Yes, I am convinced that Dr. Hoven never greatly interested himself in the typhus experiments and when Dr. Ding was absent the prisoner nurses in block 46 were so trained that they could take perfectly good care of the typhus cases in block 46.
Q. Do you know whether or not Dr. Hoven from your own personal knowledge ever selected inmates to be used at the experimental station, block 46?
A. I can answer that question perfectly definitely in the negative.
Q. You know for certain he never participated in any of these activities?
A. That I know for certain.
Q. Did you handle the records?
A. I saw the records several times in the prison office and there saw the signatures of Leclair and Serno and I know that these persons were in general selected from Berlin and were only German professional criminals or persons in preventive custody.
Q. Did you handle the records? Kindly answer my questions, doctor?
A. I often had the records in my hands, yes.
Q. Did you keep the records? Acre you the clerk, were you the clerk in the hospital barracks?
A. No.
Q. Who was the clerk?
A. The prison index card file which had really nothing to do with this matter was under the charge of a man named Roemhild at that time, and the actual files themselves were always in Busse's room; Busse being the Kapo.
Q. Who was that first man?
A. Roemhild.
Q. Ferdinand Roemhild?
A. That is right.
Q. Thanks. Do you recall when block 50 was being constructed?
A. You probably mean when block 50 was started to be used as an experimental station?
Q. That is right.
A. I believe in 1941.
Q. Who had charge of equipping it, so that it could be used as an experimental station? Do you know whether or not it was Dr. Hoven?
A. Dr. Hoven equipped Block 50, but I believe you want to know the names of the prisoners who functioned there...
Q. No, I want to know whether or not Dr. Hoven had charge of equipping block 50?
A. Yes.
Q. How many inmates were there in Buchenwald concentration camp in 1940?
A. In 1940 there must have been no more than 5,000.
Q. How many deaths did you average a month through natural causes?
A. A very small number of natural deaths.
Q. Well how many would that be, ten, twenty, two hundred or five hundred?
A. Mr. Prosecutor, I should like to say that I cannot freely judge in this matter because I have read a great deal about Buchenwald since my release and have read a let of statistics and on the basis of what I have read I could say that the number was about two percent.
Q. Two percent of five thousand?
A. Yes, that is what I ascertained, two percent of five thousand.
Q. How about 1941? How many inmates in the camp in 1941?
A. Here the development at the camp Buchenwald played a large role. In 1940 at the beginning of the Russian campaign innumerable prisoners of war were brought into the camp and then when the Ukraine was occupied there were innumerable Ukrainian prisoners so that the population of the camp increased rapidly. I believe in one year we had ten thousand new arrivals.
Q. Then in 1941 you had 15,000 people there, you think?
A. That must be approximately correct.
Q. How many deaths did you have then?
A. when the Russian prisoners of war came there were relatively many deaths because these men had walked from the border to the camp and were completely exhausted and emaciated and consequently died in relatively large numbers.
Q. Was it as much as five percent or ten percent?