Was that the reason why he helped you?
A What might I offer to Dr. Hoven? All I had were the prisoners' clothes I was wearing. I wasn't even allowed to keep my wedding ring when I was in prison, so what could I offer to Dr. Hoven?
Q What was the general reputation of Dr. Hoven in the camp?
A let me say that contrary to other camp doctors, most prisoners took an interest in the personality of Dr. Hoven, because I believe among all members of the SS there wasn't a man about whom any good rumors circulated in the camp. It became known, for instance, that in one block in that camp, and I can't give it to you accurately which one it was, but it was in the row between blocks 45 and 50, there was a block with a fence around it, and in that block former high officials of the Dutch State were confined; among then the former Dutch Minister of Finance and the Minister for Colonies and a high ranking government official from India, and also a certain professor, Dr. Elderi, who had once been the head of the International Rhine Control Commission, and there were many other well known personalities from Holland. These people had a great deal of advantages over other prisoners, and they succeeded in getting Dr. Hoven over to their side completely. I know for certain that Dr. Hoven helped a great many of these people to regain their freedom and it is a well known fact and case that Dr. Hoven really employed means to have these people released, and had he been found out it would have resulted in his inmediate detention by the Gestapo, and having to face very probably the next special court. Dr. Hoven succeeded in having these people released when they were only physically weak or sick, to fake x-ray findings for healthy people by substituting photographs of tubercular patients, by which means he succeeded in getting these people out.
Q Would it have been possible to say that in accordance with Hoven's position in Buchenwald that he actually killed prisoners when there was no other in the community to do so?
A Your Honors, I can't imagine that a man who helped a Jew who had no right to live in the National Socialist state, that he killed people is possible, a man who asked him for his wishes regarding food and nursed him and aided him in the sick bay for months and even helped conceal him in the sick bay for years, that the same man arbitrarily might have carried out killings which were not necessary.
I just cannot imagine such a thing.
Q What was the medical care like during the time when the defendant Hoven was camp physician at Buchenwald?
A I am glad to say that this medical care was a very good one. I would like to emphasize particularly at this point that this was a considerable achievement on the part of the old established political prisoners who collaborated with Dr. Hoven, because it is a fact that we obtained medical supplies, bandages and additional food from the Chief of the Hygiene Food Department at Berlin, Liehterfeldei. Apart from that it was possible during Hoven's period that he added two large huts to the camp hospital which were extremely well equipped and were really quite worthy if human beings. I can recollect that on several occasions during the inspections carried out by doctors who were members of the armed forces, the expressions were used: "Look here, doctor, the installations here is almost better than ours, even the barracks for the troops and our front line hospitals," and I want to add that until my departure in 1943, which was after the fourth year of war, we were still sleeping in beds with white sheets. We had blue and white sheets which were perfectly clean, and in 1943 in addition to that we still had considerable quantities of glucose, insulin and so on, which many soldiers have told me that the front lino hospitals were terribly short of.
Q Were there sufficient beds?
A I can well say yes, because I would estimate after all that there were certainly 800 to 900 beds in the prison hospital in Buchenwald, and apart from that Dr. Hoven so organized it, if the sick bay was really full, then prisoners received a so-called light duty certificate, which meant that they could stay in bed in their own block.
I can remember very accurately for instance that at the beginning when Dr. Hoven had become camp doctor that the death rate in the camp Buchenwald really went down quite a bit and it happened that half of the wards in the sick bay were empty. Among us prisoners there was a general rumor that Dr. Hoven really deserved great praise for what he did in the sick bay.
Q. I would like to submit to you once again Document 1063 of the War Crimes Commission at Amsterdam and I shall now out to you Schalter's testimony on page 16 of the German translation. Schalter states in this document that the camp doctor, Dr. Hoven, played an extremely bad part and, no doubt, had on his conscience the death of innumerable people due to insufficient medical care. The witness says "food supplies" but the translation of that is a mistake. It is medical care in the Dutch original. Now, let me ask you, was Schalter working in the Sick Bay?
A. No.
Q. Would Schalter then be in possession of the necessary knowledge which would enable him to pass judgment on the medical situation at Buchenwald?
A. Counsel, I think I have already said to you before once today that an outsider would have found it quite impossible to have gained insight into the prison hospital or the Sick Bay and the actual camp had been two separate camps at all times. Furthermore I am firmly convinced that if I hadn't been working in the Sick Bay myself and were told today that Dr. Hoven played a bad part that I would assume that to be the truth without criticism because outsiders are not informed about the conditions and about the activities of a camp physician.
Q. Do you know a case where a prisoner during the time when Dr. Hoven was camp physician died because of insufficient medical care?
A. Amongst the people who were operated on by the prisoner Dr. Horn, with Dr. Hoven as the assisting surgeon, I cannot remember a single case.
Q. What do you know about the defendant Dr. Hoven's political views?
A. I can't imagine that Dr. Hoven was a famous Nazi because I think if he had had any plans of that nature then he would have placed his whole wireless set at the disposal of the people in the hospital - that gave us a wonderful opportunity of listening to England and Moscow every night. Apart from that Dr. Hoven was most certainly informed that there were two night watchmen in the hospital especially for this purpose. I can remember very well that Dr. Hoven placed his dog at the disposal of one of these watchmen so that anyone who approached the Sick Bay was immediately announced by the dog and the night watchman said "Watch out, trouble, turn off the switch." I believe if Dr. Hoven had been an convinced SS man he would hardly have made jokes like that.
Q. You have already spoke about Dr. Hoven's attitude toward the Jews. Do you have anything you want to add or would you just describe Dr. Hoven's attitude toward Jews summarily.
A. I believe that it is generally known that Jewish prisoners in that camp were actually suffering the worst lot of all. If an SS man, be it the doctor or be it another ascertained the block leader of the Jewish blocks was taking an interest in the Jews, then he had to take quite some risks because he always stood between the prisoners and the SS and I know for certain if the preferential treatment which Dr. Hoven gave the Jews had been known then Dr. Hoven wouldn't be in the Dock today. I think at that time he would have gone the way so many prisoners went at the camp in Buchenwald. I would really like to remind you of the case of August Cohn in this connection. I think I have mentioned the name once before today. Cohn was a German, a political Jew, and with his comrades and all the prisoners in the camp he had an excellent reputation.
One day this man was supposed to leave the camp of Buchenwald on a transport. The illegal camp administrator immediately contacted Hoven saying there was danger for Cohn to be transported away from Buchenwald. Dr. Hoven immediately adopted the necessary measures and brought Cohn to Block 46. I can remember that a few weeks before Cohn left for the United States, because I live near Kassel, I met him in the street quite by accident when he had a break down of his car. I recognized him immediately and stopped and started talking with him. For the first time I learned that the defendant Hoven had later been a prisoner in the concentration camp of Buchenwald. Cohn also told me that an American Armored Troop had put Hoven on top of a tank and had taken him from Weimar to Buchenwald. When they got to Buchenwald Cohn saw Hoven standing on top of the tank and he stopped the American driver and said to the officer who was there, "Gentlemen, don't do any harm to this man. He is the an who fought in our ranks." Your Honor, could you imagine that a Jew of all people - those people who suffered most by hardship in that camp - would speak up to save the life of an SS man and describe him as a decent humanizing? I don't believe so. I wouldn't do it in any other case either.
Q. Will you please tell this Tribunal the measures adopted by the defendant Dr. Hoven in order to camouflage Jews in that legal Sick Bay?
A. It happened very often that Jews who arrived in the prisoners' Sick Bay were immediately deprived of all articles, that the markings were removed from the prisoner's clothes and all that was left was a number so that any camp commander who might come to the Sick Bay, even the commandant or little SS men, could never find out that these prisoners were Jews.
It happened every day after all that Jews suffered ill treatment in the open camp streets. If one of these gentlemen might have had a bad breakfast he would then go out and assault those Jewish prisoners, beat them senseless. And I must add that all these people who came back from flagging were admitted to the Sick Bay by Dr. Hoven although this was severely prohibited. I would like to tell you about the Jewish prisoner Brandt from Hamburg. I know I am under oath in this Court Room and that I must think carefully about every word I am saying. I want to tell you that this man Brandt had four operations on his behind since all flesh had been beaten off his hones. Dr. Hoven kept this man perhaps 8 or 9 months in the Sick Bay and I assure you he was excellently fed first of all for pity the nurses felt for him, and secondly, Hoven saw what this man had gone through, a terrible torture. I am not exaggerating when I say he had sores on his behind as large as my hand and it must be highly considered that Dr. Hoven helped so much at the time.
Q. What was Dr. Hoven's concern regarding food supplies for the prisoners?
A. I would like to say that I myself accompanied Dr. Hoven during many inspections of the prison kitchen and it happened quite often that Dr. Hoven took a plate from the kettle in which the prisoner's food was cooked and tried this food. When Dr. Hoven felt that the food was not edible he went straight to the phone and got in touch with the commandant and replied that the food would go straight to the pig stye, the work would be interrupted, the prisoners would return to the camp and a new meal would be cooked and only the newly cooked meal would be given out I know he went to the prison kitchen three to five times a week.
Q. What other measures did Dr. Hoven adopt in the interest of the prisoners?
A. Counsel, would you kindly repeat the question, please?
Q. What additional measures did Dr. Hoven adopt in the interest of the prisoners?
A. I know for instance that a large number of cases when prisoners had to do hard physical work in the working party so that many were near physical breakdown. I have also experienced it that Dr. Hoven crossed the parade square several times and that during rool call, which before Dr. Hoven's time occupied three to four hours, convinced himself of the physical condition of the prisoners. No doubt the whole camp was deeply grateful to Dr. Hoven that he succeeded to reduce the roll call period in Buchenwald to a minimum. I can well say that roll call during Hoven's period hardly took longer than 20 minutes. Now when Hoven saw people on the parade square that looked weak and badly nourished he gave instructions to take down the number of the detainee and saw very quickly that that prisoner went to another working party.
Q.- What do you know about measures adopted by the defendant Dr. Hoven to save Polish people who were to be hanged because they had sexual intercourse with German girls ?
A.- The situation of those Polish prisoners in the camp was rather bad. Most of them, after they were in Buchenwald for two or three weeks, were called to the political department by either LeClair or Serno and hanged. After the illegal camp administration and Dr. Hoven had discovered that there did exist the possibility to save these people since there was an order from Berlin to the effect that Poles who spoke German well were be Germanized if possible, Dr. Hoven made excessive use of this loophole. I could describe you many a case when Polish prisoners, who were in the camp for three or four days and could, therefore, not be recognized as good comrades in that short period, were instructed to report to the sick bay where they were then physically and medically examined, measuring was carried cut - this always appeared most ridiculous to me - and then these people were included in some list - I think it went up to 5 - and then when Dr. Hoven succeeded in putting these men on List # 5 then they had escaped death because a German who had intercourse with a German girl couldn't very well be hanged for that.
Q.- Had prisoners requested the defendant Dr. Hoven that when he was away from Buchenwald he should always leave a message to the effect where he could be found ?
A.- I'd like to say that the hospital had connection with Dr. Hoven's apartment, even I think with the the commandant, the commandant's office and the gate by telephone, and every time that Dr. Hoven left the hospital he told the nurse on duty where he could be found. It happened for instance, that operations had to be carried out right in the middle of the night. Sometimes, quite possibly, Dr. Horn didn't know whether he could carry on without Dr. Hoven's, the camp physician's permission or not and then he went to the telephone and got Dr. Hoven, but I have got to say that in no case which I ever saw did Dr. Hoven refuse to came, making some excuses or even delayed.
It was generally known that when Dr. Hoven was needed in the camp he was there. There were circumstances sometimes when, quite suddenly, two or three camp leaders arrived in the sick bay. They had got an idea somehow that the camp hospital was really the seat of the illegal camp administration, and they started to turn everything up side down looking for pamphlets, written and printed documents, radio receivers and transmitters, and it never took a long time before Dr. Hoven showed up and stopped these people from carrying out further search, telling them that they made a nuisance of themselves. I think many a beating was saved in that way and many of our good comrades escaped the crematorium that way.
Q.- Was it generally known in the camp that the defendant Dr. Hoven collaborated with the illegal camp administration ?
A.- If I were to say "generally" in the camp that would probably be too much because if we question one hundred persons from Buchenwald in this court room and ask them who was the illegal camp administration then ninety-nine of them wouldn't be able to give you a definite answer. I must tell you that I myself had been in frequent contact with the illegal camp administration, but if you ask me today or if you tell me to write down the names of the illegal camp administration then I certainly wouldn't get beyond my immediate superior. If there were any messages or reports or orders to be transmitted by me then I only had one man who was directly ahead of me who w as designated to me and all I knew was that I had to tell him but I didn't even know to whom he went as the next one. The illegal camp administration, therefore, was always quite definitely a very mysterious affair. Admittedly, the SS camp administration always stated that the former hospital capo, Ernst Busse, had been the head of this conspiracy, but I wouldn't like to state that here because, quite definitely I can't tell you for certain.
Q.- What do you know about the reasons for Dr. Hoven's arrest by the Secret State Police ?
A.- The official arrest of Dr. Hoven I heard very little, but I assume that subsequently to this arrest I was immediately sent away from Buchenwald because it was very probable that the SS were convinced that I might have seen too much with Hoven and that it was high time, after Hoven went, that I went too. I'm absolutely convinced that the reason why Dr. Hoven was arrested was this. The SS camp administration quite definitely did not fail to see the collaboration between the illegal camp administration and Dr. Hoven. In order not to make themselves ridiculous they couldn't obviously arrest Dr. Hoven and say "You have collaborated with the prisoners" because the prisoners who collaborated with Dr. Hoven could well be hanged without a word of treason ever passing their lips. We certainly saw this case masses of times in Buchenwald because people being under suspicion of being in the illegal camp administration went to the so-called "bunker" in Buchenwald where they died in extreme misery ; fortunately, however, without ever gibing their comrades away. So I think it would have been quite useless if Dr. Hoven had been arrested officially in order to get from him the names of the illegal camp administration because I don't believe Dr. Hoven would have become that weak.
Q.- Will you please describe to the Tribunal how it happened that you arrived here as a witness ?
A.- I road in the news papers that, at present, Dr. Hoven was in the prison in Nurnberg and that he was being held responsible for the euthanasia program before the International Military Tribunal in Nurnberg and, at the same time, I read that a certain Dr. Gawlik had taken over the defense of this defendant. Now, since I owe my own life to Dr. Hoven, and since I have seen so mano good deeds done to me during the time of my detention, I came here as a voluntary witness. Neither the prosecution nor the defense asked me to do that and it's really incomprehensible to me that all these men who once lived well thanks to Dr. Hoven and who, today, have very important positions in Germany, and I'll just briefly mention the Vice President of Thuringia here in this connection.
I do not understand the personal cowardice of this man that he hasn't come to Nurnberg today to say "That's how the situation is". There are other people too who are holding high police offices in the Russian Zone today. Why do these people not consider it necessary that the man who has done so much good for them and saved their lives or made their lives easy for them during many years of detention - that these people didn't come here today. I'd also like to say that it was tried to create difficulties for me. When it became known to the Committee for Racially Persecuted People that I would appear as a witness in Nurnberg, it was actually tried quite shortly beforehand to have me imprisoned. They weren't even ashamed to talk to fellow prisoners behind my back and ask them if it wasn't possible that I might have beaten a Jew on some occasion or whether there wasn't some reason for my arrest thus preventing my journey to Nurnberg. But these men didn't score in that effort.
Q.- Thank you. I have no further questions to the witness, Mr. President.
THE PRESIDENT : The Tribunal will now be in recess until 1:30 o'clock (a recess was taken until 1330 hours, 5 June 1947) AFTERNOON SESSION (The hearing reconvened at 1330 hours, 5 June 1947.)
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal is again in session.
May it please Your Honors, the defendant Rudolf Brandt has resumed his place in the courtroom.
THE PRESIDENT: The Secretary General will note for the record that Rudolf Brandt has resumed his place in the dock.
Do any of the defense counsel have any questions of this witness?
DR. STEINBAUER: Steinbauer for defendant Beiglboeck.
BY DR. STEINBAUER:
Q. Witness, I was interested in what you said at the conclusion, namely, that you were subjected to severe pressure not to appear here as a witness. I ask you, do you believe that if a former hospital capo in a concentration camp today is the regional chief, let us say, of the Communist Party in a country not under American protection, would he have enough power that former concentration camp inmates would be afraid to oppose him?
A. To this question I can only say that efforts were made to make difficulties for me before my departure for Nuernberg.
Q. Please speak a little louder. I don't hear you.
A. I repeat, I can only say that difficulties were made for me before my departure for Nuernberg.
Q. Then you believe that if less intelligent former concentration camp inmates are subjected to such pressure they are likely not to tell the truth?
A. I consider that quite possible.
Q. How long were you in a concentration camp?
A. From 1940 to 1944.
Q. Then you had rather exhaustive experience with concentration camps?
A. Yes, that can be said.
Q. Were you detained in one concentration camp or in different camps?
A. I was first in Dachau, and from December 1940 to 20 September 1943 in Buchenwald, and from 20 September 1943 until 16 July 1944 I was in Auschwitz.
Q. Then the inmates of the concentration camp were they persecuted by the SS and were there political struggles for power within the concentration camp?
A. I would say the inmates had more to fear of those latter struggles for power than of the SS, because the motto in the camp was "He who doesn't toe the line or it is believed he doesn't toe the line," death sentence is already prepared for him.
Q. Then there was a fight between the blues and the reds in the camp?
A. It would be better to say between the greens and the reds.
Q. Within these individual groups, let us say within the red group, were there also not struggles for power?
A. I can answer that question only in regards to Camp Buchenwald, and I can say that as long as the center of the illegal camp management was in the camp hospital it was possibly determined through Dr. Hoven's protection, when the political prisoners, particularly if they were former communists, were practically united, and Buchenwald was the only camp group this organization was extended to all members of the camp no matter what their nationality was.
Q. Witness, because you just mentioned Buchenwald, were there gypsies in that camp?
A. Quite a few, indeed.
Q. What colors did the gypsies carry?
A. You refer to what triangle they wore?
Q. Yes.
A. They wore the black one designating them as asocial.
Q. I must tell you that in the book "SS State" by Kogon it is started that the gypsies wore the brown triangle.
A. Insofar as I know, the brown sign was done away with in Buchenwald in 1940, and all gypsies arrested for racial reasons were asocial.
In other words, from 1940 on there were no gypsies in the camp who were not designated in the filing system as asocial, as unwilling to work.
Q. Now we have these various designations, the reds, blues, and browns. Did any of these groups have more opportunity to escape from the camp more quickly than other groups?
A. The green prisoners, the professional criminals, had no chance whatever to be released from the camp. The political prisoners - of them I know only three or four cases who were released through channels. To be sure, there were some releases which I said this morning which Dr. Hoven was behind. The black ones had quite a good chance of being released.
Q. And according to what you have said the gypsies belonged to this class.
A. I have already said so.
Q. Let me ask you again, did the gypsies belong among those who had a better chance of early release?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you know whether there was a tuberculosis station in Dachau?
A . I know about this Tuberculosis Station from my own experience from the time I myself was at Dachau, moreover, I can state that from my Auschwitz time, we sent tubercular persons if they were native Germans to Dachau for treatment.
Q. Now, since you said you know about this station yourself; how was it kept?
A. I must say I saw this station only from the outside, but I know from prisoner nurses with whom I associated in Auschwitz that the tuberculosis station in Dachau was very well equipped.
Q. Now, if a prisoner had the misfortune of falling sick with tuberculosis in Dachau, do you believe that he was taken into and cared for in the tuberculosis station, or do you believe he was killed because he had tuberculosis?
A. The important thing in the camp was always whether the prisoner had some connections either with the camp doctor or with the illegal camp administration and if so, he was immediately taken into the Tuberculosis station.
Q. Did you ever hear that prisoners were used in experiments, medical experiments?
A. So far as I know there were high altitude experiments in Dachau for the Luftwaffe, then I think there were experiments in making sea-water potable and experiments of that sort, however, I am not exactly informed on this.
Q. That is not important, but can you tell me perhaps were these people forced to participate in these experiments or was there an opportunity for them to apply?
A. Please imagine the position in which a prisoner finds himself, who for many years has not been able to eat until his appetite is satisfied and imagine how he think if he applies for such and such an experiment, he will receive double or triple rations. You can readily see that hundreds and even more prisoners would make themselves available simply for the purely human urge to have a full meal.
Q. Now, witness, you said that for an inmate of the camp it was difficult to know very much about what went on in the hospital; what opportunities did a person entirely outside of the camp, let us say myself living in Vienna, have to observe what went on in Dachau or Buchenwald?
A. I can only give you the one answer; I myself did not know what went on in there until I myself was inside.
Q. Thank you, I have no further questions.
THE PRESIDENT: Are there any further questions to be propounded to the witness by defense counsel? If not, the prosecution may cross examine.
BY MR. HARDY:
Q. Mr. Dorn, how long did you work in the quarries at Buchenwald?
A. From December of 1940 until I first fell sick around the middle of January, then with short interruptions I was in the hospital and then until March of 1941 I worked in the quarries.
Q. How many people did you see killed there?
A. How many in the quarries?
Q. Yes.
A. That is a very sad chapter. The prisoner Kapo Herzog, a man of ill repute, treated the prisoners exactly in accord with what his mood happened to be and it is true that people were mistreated for so long they finally died.
Q. Didn't they actually take inmates to the quarries to execute them?
A. Mr. Prosecutor, in the early morning, when the prisoners were leaving the camp, the Camp Commander Schobert frequently ordered that when the commando came back in the evening there were to be no more Jews in it. I believe that you understand what that means.
Q . How long was Schobert Camp Commander?
A. As far as I know, until the camp was liberated.
Q. When Koch Camp Commander?
A. I must correct; Schobert was not the Camp Commander but the administrator of the Preventive Custody Camp.
Q. What kind of a man was Camp Commandant Koch?
A. I must say that I saw Commandant Koch only very infrequently, but so far as I recall, he was a man with no conscience and a criminal, that is really the only description that one can find for that man.
Q. When did you first enter Block 46?
A. Approximately three or four days after the first experimental series was begun.
Q. How often did you frequent Block 46?
A. You mean the entire period of time during which I was in Buchenwald as a nurse; if you do, I must say that I cannot give you the exact number of times, but that it was very often.
Q. Did you go there two or three times a week, or two or three times a month; just how often?
A. I believe I can state that I was there twice a week.
Q. Twice a week; however, you had no duties to preform at Block 46?
A. No, in Block 46 I had no work to do, only occasionally I had to take medicine and drugs there.
Q. Then your only reason for frequenting Block 46 was to deliver drugs and medicine; is that correct?
A. I frequently had to take food there to, butter which was given as an additional ration and which I received in the kitchen to be taken to Block 46.
Q. Well, then, whenever you paid a visit to Block 46 how much time did you spend there; ten minutes, two hours a whole day?
A. Sometimes I was there for an hour and conversed with the nurses there.
Q. Did you ever see any experiments being conducted?
A. I saw the patients daily, I also often asked them how things were going with them or what they were doing, but I could not see the experiments themselves since Dr. Ding never took me inside the Block.
Q. Did you ever see Dr. Ding administer any injections to the experimental subjects or perform any of the experiments thereon at any time?
A. No.
Q. Then, you are not at liberty to tell the Tribunal who experimented in block 46?
A. Mr. Prosecutor, I am in a position to do so because I was on very friendly terms with the nurse Jellinek and he frequently told me who was doing what in Block 46.
Q. Did any of the nurses ever tell you that Dr. Hoven was performing experiments in Block 46?
A. No.
Q. Would it have been possible for Dr. Hoven to perform experiments in Block 46 without your knowledge?
A. I hardly believe so, Mr. Prosecutor, because such things would immediately have become generally known in the camp in our circles.
Q. Suppose Fritz Kirchheimer stated that he personally saw Dr. Hoven experiment on subjects, in Block No. 46?
DR. GAWLIK: I object to that question, Kirchheimer never said such a thing. I wish the Prosecutor to show the transcript to the witness so he may see what Fritz Kirchheimer actually did say. I know that Kirchheimer stated he never saw Dr. Hoven giving an injection.
MR. HARDY: Pardon me, Your Honor, I did not say injection. I said experimented on. Fritz Kirchheimer testified here that Dr. Hoven tied the cage of lice on inmates logs in Block 46, if I recollect correctly.
Did Kirchheimer ever tell you about that witness?
DR. GAWLIK: Mr. President, I believe that the ruling of the court is that the transcript should be shown to the witness so he himself can read what the witness Kirchheimer said.
MR. HARDY: Your Honor, I don't think that is necessary. I will ask him whether or not Kirchheimer ever told him that he saw Dr. Hoven ever experiment on inmates in the camp.
THE PRESIDENT: Then you will withdraw the previous question?
MR. HARDY: That was my previous question, Your Honor, I asked if he ever talked to Kirchheimer and if Kirchheimer ever told him that Dr. Hoven ever experimented on inmates, that was the import of my question.
THE PRESIDENT: The translation must have come through wrong then, Mr. Hardy, I did not understand you. The prosecutor will propound his question again.
MR. HARDY: Did Fritz Kirchheimer ever tell you that he
MR. HARDY: Did Fritz Kirchheimer ever tell you that he saw Dr. Hoven performing experiments on human beings in Block No. 46?