DR. STEINBAUER: Mr. President, May I call the witness Jaeger at this time?
THE PRESIDENT: The defendant Becker-Freyseng is excused from the witness stand temporarily and will resume his place.
The Marshall will summon the witness Rolf Jaeger.
ROLF JAEGER, a witness took the stand and testified as follows:
BY JUDGE SEBRING:
Q You will please hold up your right hand and take the oath.
I swear by God, the Almighty and Omniscient, that I will speak the pure truth and will withhold and add nothing.
(The witness repeated the oath.)
You may seated.
THE PRESIDENT: Counsel may proceed.
BY DR. STEINBAUER:
Q Witness, what is your exact name, where were you born, what is your nationality and what is your present address?
A My name is Dr. Rolf Jaeger. I was born on the 1st of November, 1912, in Graudenz on the Vistula in Western Prussia. I am a doctor by profession. I am a German citizen. My present address is Graz-Liebenau, Austria, 721st S.E.P. Hospital.
Q What is your employment there?
A I am an Oberstabsarzt and senior medical officer for S.E.P. units under British command. I am personally directly subordinate to the headquarters of the British troops in Austria. I am also a chief physician of the 721st S.E.P. Hospital.
Q How is it that you know Professor Beiglboeck?
A I met Professor Beiglboeck under the auspices of the adjutant of the Corps Physician in Berlin-Tempelhof about the end of 1943. He was sent to my hospital in Tarvisio in Northern Italy about Easter, 1944, and he was under me from that time on.
Q How long was he your subordinate?
A He was my subordinate, until the end of the war.
Q What was his position there?
A He was leading physician of the internal department of my hospital.
Q Do you know whether Beiglboeck had the title "Consulting Physician of the Luftwaffe?"
A No, Professor Beiglboeck was not a consulting physician of the Luftwaffe. I remember, however, that he would suggested as such. From a personal remark of the Generalstabsarzt, Dr. Neumueller I learned that he was proposed at the consulting internist of the Army.
Q Why was he not appointed?
A He was rejected by Generalstabsarzt Neumueller since he did not think he was a good enough soldier and was "too soft ", as he said to me personally.
Q Who then took the position that he was intended for?
A His position was taken by some else who took over the duties of consulting internist. He was not a academic teacher. I cannot remember his name today.
Q Now, what military rank did Beiglboeck have in June of 1944?
A Professor Beiglboeck was an Oberarzt of the reserve at the time, but he was already classified for Stabsarzt at the time when he came to Tarvisio.
Q Can you tell us something about his previous employment in the Luftwaffe?
A He came to us from the Luftwaffe Hospital in Brunswick with a good reputation. I know nothing of his previous work.
Q Your hospital in Tarvisio, was that German territory or was that outside Germany?
A Tarvisio was on Italian soil. The hospital belonged to the Army operating in Italy. The borders were strictly blocked.
Q Did Professor Beiglboeck have any personal connections with higher offices, particularly to the Medical Inspectorate?
A No, he did not. I don't believe he wanted any.
Q What can you tell us about his medical activities and his attitude as a physician?
A His medical activities consisted in taking care of the internal department and caring for the patients. May hospital had 1500 beds at that time. 450 approximately belonged to the internal department. To this was attached an infectious ward and a tuberculosis ward, an X-ray department, a clinical laboratory and a department for physical therapy. As a physician Professor Beiglboeck had a very good reputation, not only among his patients but also among the personnel under him and above all among his colleagues. As a man to every one respected him and liked him.
Q Did you have only members of the German Wehrmacht as patients or did you have also foreign patients?
A Not only German members of the armed forces, but also Italian soldiers, and also Poles, Russians, Yugoslavs, Americans and Englishmen. The latter were fliers who had been shot down and some of them in our hospital for months. Professor Beiglboeck made no distinction as to nationality when treating his patients.
Q Did Beiglboeck, during his stay in Italian territory, have touch with the civilian population?
A Yes, very close touch. He had good reputation as a doctor, not only among us, but his reputation got around in the small town of Tarvisio and, in his free time, he did all to help the poor mountain population. He was often on the road at night which was without danger towards the end of the war because there were partisans in the area.
Q Now, Dr. Jaeger, let us turn to the experiments. Do you know when Beiglbock was ordered to report to Berlin?
A I cannot give you the date exactly. It was about the second half of June in 1944.
Q In what way was this carried out?
A By a teletype message.
Q. Do you recall whether the teletype message contained a reason for this request?
A. No, it merely said that Professor Beiglboeck was to report immediately to the Medical Inspectorate in Berlin.
Q. Did you ask by phone or by telegram what was afoot here?
A. Yes, I inquired by telephone and I was informed that Professor Beiglboeck was to be assigned to some scientific work; I could learn nothing else.
Q. Now, when Beiglboeck was in Berlin, did he tell you what was going on and ask you to request his return?
A. Yes, he did.
Q. What reason did he give for this request?
A. He explained his wish to be sent back by saying that he did not like to accept the assignment to carry out experiments in a concentration camp and besides, he wanted to come back to the internal Department of the Hospital and asked me to try to arrange it.
Q. Did you make efforts to have him brought back?
A. Yes, I did, I said that I had entrusted him with the building up of the internal department and it was hard for me to get along without him.
Q. Why was this request on your part refused?
A. My request went through official channels to the adjutant of the Army Surgeon and he had to ask for the release from the Medical Inspectorate. It was rejected and said that the assignment he had to carry out was important.
Q. Did Beiglbock then tell you that he had asked that the experiments be carried out in Tarvisie?
A. Yes.
Q. Would that have been technically possible?
A. Technically, yes.
Q. How so?
A. We had quite a good laboratory and the laboratory workers would have been adequate to carry out the normal experiments.
Q. Why was this then not done?
A. The military situation was such that we needed every bed in the hospital. There was also an order that the borders of the Reich were closed for the return of patients and it would have been difficult to solve the bed question. Immediately after the Invasion, we received a Fuehrer order which again strictly prohibited any return of patients and this order was binding on all Wehrmacht offices.
Q. When Beiglboeck went to Dachau, did he write anything to you or did he write to any of the other doctors about what went on there?
A. Yes, I remember that very well, he wrote to several members of the hospital staff, and in all the letters he said how unhappy he was at Dachau and how much he disliked carrying out the experiments there. I remember before the experiments began, he wrote me personally a letter and asked me again to try to arrange for his return. I tried again, but without success, I myself, of course, was particularly interested in getting him back, because I had assigned him to do this new building.
Q. Dr. Jaeger, you were in fact the medical officer; do you believe that Bieglboeck could have refused to obey this military order?
A. No, I do not believe so. After all, it came from the supreme superior and Professor Beiglboeck was a medical officer. Orders for medical officers were the same as for any other officer and soldier.
Q. Now, Beiglboeck carried out his experiments and after the experiments were over, he came back to Tarvisio. What did he report to you about his experiments?
A. About the middle of October, Professor Beiglboeck reported back to me as his disciplinary superior. When I inquired, he told me about his assignment, he told me that no carried out the sea-water experiments as ordered. He also said that before the beginning of the experiment he also performed an experiment on himself. He said that the experimental subjects were gipsies, who had volunteered and that they were granted extra food rations, less work, etc.
Q. Tell me, Dr. Jaeger, did he say anything to you about what his relations were with the experimental subjects, these concentration camp inmates?
A. I had the impression that he had very good relations with his experimental subjects.
Q. Do you think that Dr. Beiglboeck had any reason to conceal the true facts?
A. No, I do not; he under the then existing conditions had no reason to conceal anything from me aside from the fact that I asked him as his superior officer.
Q. Well, Dr. Beiglboeck came back to Tarvisio and he came back from a concentration camp; did you ask him what it looked like in a concentration camp?
A. Yes, of course, I as well as the others who heard it were quite astonished that he could not say much about the conditions, he only said that his movements in the concentration camp were restricted and relations with the SS were rather tense.
Q. Now, I want to ask you something else. Do you think Professor Beiglboeck had any personal, scientific or literary interest in these sea-water experiments?
A. No, I do not believe so. On the contrary, as far as I can remember, he was doing scientific work on hepatitis at the time in the clinic and I think he wanted to publish a book on the subject; thus I believe the contrary would be true.
Q. But maybe you think that he did these experiments, as the chief prosecutor said in his opening statement, from a Nazistic point of view in order to torture the enemies of National Socialism.
A. I do not believe that as that would not fit in with his character. I never knew him as a fanatic, his sympathy and heart always belonged to the weak and oppressed, he never refused them aid. I think he was a party member, yes, but if one heard him, one had to have the opposite impression of his ideals; his criticism of party or political measures of the highest agencies indicated that. I don't believe that I can assume that.
Q. Now, let me ask you a last question. You are a physician, a medical officer, and I know of your career; do you consider the problem of such sea-water experiments sack as these a superfluous one; do you think they were unnecessary or do you think they were serious experiments and a important problem?
A. Yes, I believe it was an important problem. I may say that I was a parachutist on Crete and know the special dangers of the sea. I was shut in for two days near the coast in Crete and suffered greatly from thirst. After these two days we reached the sea; we were sitting practically in the water and were suffering greatly from thirst, but were unable to drink. On the fourth day we received fresh water from a well. Anyone who has thirst practically sitting in the water will realize how important the problem is.
Q. Did you have ship-wrecked people who suffered from thirst at that time?
A. Yes, there were a number of people who flew to Crete who crashed and I saw quite a few people who had managed to reach the land and who had been fished out of the water. I saw the conditions and the greatest problem for all these people was the water and their great thirst.
Q. No further questions.
THE PRESIDENT: Are there any further questions to be propounded to the witness by defense counsel? If not, the Prosecution may cross examine.
CROSS EXAMINATION BY MR. HARDY:
Q. What was the specific date when Dr. Beiglboeck went to Berlin to report to the Medical Inspectorate?
A. I said before that I don't know the exact date; I believe it was the second half of June 1944.
Q. And when did he return?
A. As far as I can remember, that was about October, the middle of October.
Q. When did he tell you that he had an assignment to experiment on concentration camp inmates at Dachau?
A. He told me that in a letter.
Q. What was your interest in this matter?
A. In his carrying out the experiments?
Q. Yes.
A. No, I had no interest in them. I wanted him as an internist for my hospital for medical reasons and because we were building a new building.
Q. Was Dr. Beiglboeck a man of good character and reputation?
A. Oh, yes, I may well say so.
Q. Did you ever hear of the Fuehrer Order of Secrecy?
A. For this experiment?
Q. The Fuehrer Order of Secrecy in Germany, not for this experiment?
A. No, I never heard of it.
Q. Do you know what "Secret" means?
A. Of course.
Q. Do you know what "Top Secret" means?
A. Yes, I know what that is.
Q. If you were given a secret order, would you go and tell your friends about it, or would you consider that a breach of your allegiance to the Fuehrer and to the Nazi Government?
A. That depends. I do not know.....
Q. Do you think that Beiglboeck was being very considerate and very loyal when he informed you about matters which were "Top Secret", a man that had nothing to do with the problem?
A. Whether that was loyal of Professor Beiglboeck; was that your question?
Q. Well, wasn't it rather unusual?
A. No, I don't believe so, I don't think there was any reason for secrecy in this matter.
Q. Well, for your information, Doctor, the matter was classified "Top Secret". Don't you feel Dr. Beiglboeck was breaching his allegiance when he informed you, an outsider, about his proposed work at the Dachau concentration camp?
A. I don't believe so, otherwise he would probably have treated it as such.
Q. Now, you say that Dr. Beiglboeck enjoyed a cordial relationship with the experiment subjects; how do you know that?
A. I know that because he told me a great deal about their existence in his series of experiments. He said that they came to him with their personnel troubles, he said that they all spoke German. Since I knew him personally, I believe that he had close contact with his experimental subjects.
Q. You know that only from Beiglboeck himself, a man who had breached an oath in giving you information about a Top Secret project? Is that right?
A. Professor Beiglboeck, yes.
Q. You said that Dr. Beiglboeck didn't want to conduct these experiments at the Dachau concentration camp. Did he tell you why he had misgivings for not wanting to conduct these experiments at the Dachau concentration camp?
A. That was even in a letter which has been mentioned before, that he didn't like to carry out these experiments in the concentration camp; I gathered that from his mentality.
Q. Why didn't he like to do that, do you know? Was it because it was a criminal act or something? What was his objection to it?
A. I can't read his mind as well as that but I don't think that he liked the concentration camps. He didn't like working there.
Q. What was your rank, doctor?
A. Oberstabsarzt.
Q. In the Luftwaffe?
A. Yes, in the Luftwaffe.
Q. When did you join the Party?
A. I was an active officer; I was not in the Party.
Q. You never joined the Nazi Party?
A. No.
Q. Yet you were an officer in the Luftwaffe?
A. I was an officer in the Luftwaffe, yes.
Q. How do you spell your last name, doctor?
A. J-ä-g-e-r.
Q. Did you ever hear of the experiments conducted for the decontamination of water?
A. Yes, I heard about that. Of course, the decontamination.
Q. What did you hear about it?
A. Not the removing of salt, but the decontamination?
Q. That is right.
A. Decontamination?
Q. Yes, what did you hear about that?
A. Nothing especially, only what everybody knew, that is a filter to remove bacteria from water.
Q. Did you ever year of experiments conducted by the "Reichsanstalt"?
A. No, I didn't.
Q. You never heard of that?
A. What "Reichsanstalt"?
Q. "Reichsanstalt" is a German word. I will have to ask the interpreter to read it. It is spelled Wasser and Luftgau.
A. No, I never heard of that.
Q. If your name appears in a document concerning experiments conducted on 150 human beings to determine the value of certain decontamination agents in the decontamination of water, would you be inclined to think that that was another Dr. Jaeger?
A. Yes, I think that must have been somebody else.
MR. HARDY: No further questions, Your Honor.
THE PRESIDENT: Is there any further examination by counsel for defendant Beiglboeck. There being no further questions to be propounded to the witness, the witness Jaeger will be excused.
The defendant Becker-Freyseng will resume the witness stand.
HERMANN BECKER-FREYSENG - Resumed RE-DIRECT EXAMINATION BY DR. TIPP:
Q. Dr. Becker, the direct examination and the cross examination have been so exhaustive that I do not believe I shall have to ask many more questions. However, I want to clarify first of all one question to you that Dr. Hardy broached this morning, the question of the so-called "Super-Referents". Did you actually, among the Referents, of whom there were twenty-five in the Medical Inspectorate, have a position that put you above the other Referents?
A. I took this statement of Mr. Hardy as a captatio benevolentiae, and I don't think he meant anything of that nature by it. At least I was one of twenty-four Referents.
I did not have the highest military rank among them. There were some lieutenant colonels there. There were some older men there. There were experienced university professors. I did not have any particularly high position.
Q. Now, according to the evidence put in during this trial it would seem as if the research work in general occupied a very pre-eminent position within the office of the Chief of the Medical Inspectorate of the Luftwaffe. It would seem as if the whole office concerned itself with research. Now just what was the actual situation; what importance did research occupy within the entire work of the office of the Chief of the Medical Inspectorate?
A. I am unfortunately unable to tell you what percentage of the correspondence of the office referred to research, but I can point out one thing. First of all, my Referat was one out of twenty-four, and within my Referat research formed only a part of my work, perhaps twenty percent, fifteen percent, certainly no more. Of course, it was a very important part of my work, but the other parts were just as important.
Q. Then if I understand you correctly, you say that your work with research and research assignments was only a fractional part of all the work involved in the office of the Chief of the Medical Inspectorate?
A. Of the whole office, yes, certainly.
Q. Now, witness, please turn once again to Document NO-306. This is Exhibit No. 296 and is in Prosecution Document Book No. 12, on page 77. Unfortunately I do not have the English page - it is page 74 in the English document book. We have already discussed this document three times. Mr. Hardy brought it up twice and I must unfortunately refer to it again. But I have only one question, witness. Mr. Hardy concluded from this document, which is a letter of 9 June 1943 from Professor Rose to Professor Haagen. The last sentence reads:
"It will take some time until '2-F' produces its new research order, as Anthony is on a duty trip for several weeks." Mr. Hardy interpreted this sentence to mean that this research assignment was put to one side because the man was not present who issued the orders in research assignments.
Now in one sentence, witness, can you tell us why this research assignment was put aside while Professor Anthony was absent on an official trip?
A. That is very simple. Because the Referent was not there who had to do the technical final work on the assignment, and because it was not an urgent matter that had to be settled overnight and it was not given to me, and because even as assistant Referent I had so much to do that I didn't look for any additional work. I don't think anybody does. And so the matter was left until Anthony came back.
Q. Now, regarding the question of research assignments, which we have been kicking around long enough, now one more question, witness. You said in cross examination that the scientist applies to your office and you dictated the research assignment. I believe that is rather a telescoping of what took place, but please tell us just exactly how an application for a research assignment was handled in the office of the Chief of the Medical Inspectorate.
A. I shall try to answer this question very briefly. For the sake of simplicity let us assume that it is an aviation medicine assignment. The application from Professor John Doe, whom Mr. Hardy mentioned this morning, came first of all to the Chief of Staff, who decided whether this letter would be submitted to the Chief of the Medical Service or sent direct to the department chief, and he made some notation in the margin - either "please consult", or "can be granted", or "inquire of such and such a person" - then the letter came to the department chief, who also signed it and put a note in the margin for me, and then I got the letter and saw what my two superiors had already said about it. I either reported to the department chief about it, since it was an aviation medicine assignment. I might have suggested that Professor Strughold or someone else be consulted, and if the department chief approved the application I took the documents over to the budget Referent, who was responsible for finances. I got his approval, and he also signed it, and after I had all of this together I dictated to my stenographer the draft of a. research assignment which I submitted to my department chief, and he alone, or together with me, gave it to the Chief of Staff and the Chief of the Medical Service for signature.
Q. In other words, you did not actually dictate something which would be in the nature of an order, but your work was of a purely technical nature, was it not?
A. Yes, I believe I have explained that sufficiently. I was never a research dictator.
Q. Mr. Hardy, who has flattered you in certain ways here, has also charged you with being in charge of the aviation medicine research institutes. Now, after what Dr. Weltz has testified here, I do not believe we have to go into that any further, but like Mr. Hardy I should like to ask a hypothetical question. If the Referent had been in charge of the aviation medicine research (of course they were not), would that have been a military subordination in the sense of subordinate or superior in the military sense?
A. I can answer this question only by leading it ad absurdum. The heads of our aviation medicine institutes were: Professor Strughold with the rank of colonel. The office was that of a brigadier general. Professor Weltz had the rank of lieutenant colonel, and the office had the rank of colonel. Professor Buechner, head of the Institute for Aviation Medical pathology, also held the rank of lieutenant colonel, and the office was also that of a colonel. Professor Knothe, commander of the Training Section at Jueterbog, was first a major and at the end lieutenant colonel. That was also a colonel's position. Only the head of the Institute for Aviation Medicine in Hamburg was a Stabsarzt (captain). I don't think it is customary for any army in the world to have all colonels under the command of a captain, and I am convinced that if I had tried to give orders in the military sense to Oberstarzt Professor Strughold or Oberfeldarzt Professor Weltz - all old enough to be my father - they would have been quite astonished.
Q That then answers my hypothetical, question. Now, I believe that we do not need to enter into any further discussions of the infamous file note # 55, and the Referat numbers. I think they are clear enough. Moreover, an affidavit is going to be put in regarding this matter later. We do not have to discuss your position in the Referat any longer. Now one question regarding the low-pressure chamber. You know, Witness, that the mobile low-pressure chamber used by the DVL at Adlershof and taken to Dachau and used there in the course of the experiments has played a large role here. I don't know whether it was brought out that this low-pressure chamber was made subordinate to the Referat for Aviation Medicine.
A You again are putting a unit under me which was never under me. I must object to that. I couldn't give any orders to the man in charge of a mobile low-pressure chamber unit.
Q I wasn't referring to when the unit was made subordinate to you, but when the low-pressure chamber itself was put under the Referat for Aviation Medicine?
A That was at the end of July or the beginning of August 1942, when this motorized low-pressure chamber unit was taken over by Stabsarzt Kellerman and his crew.
Q This then was after the conclusion of the Dachau experiments for rescue from high altitude?
AAccording to what I have heard here, these experiments were completed at the end of June at the latest.
Q Something else in this matter, witness. You said in cressexamination that when the mobile low-pressure chamber units were used you said that "we saw to it that these motorized low-pressure chambers were used." Now, please explain the use of this word "we", so that we can avoid the impression that you were some sort of a super-Referent?
A That is an inaccuracy committed by everyone when speaking of his office. The low-pressure chambers were dealt with in my Referat. Orders were issued by my department chief or the Chief of Staff.
Q Regarding the high-altitude experiments, Witness, I have only one question. Since Mr. Hardy has asked you in cross-examination about Dr. Kottenhoff, tell me, how long was Dr. Kottenhoff in your Referat?
A I have already said that in the summer of 1944 Dr. Kottenhof was there for a very brief time. He had just given up one position and was waiting to be assigned again, and in the meantime presumably nobody know what to do with him, and for perhaps a week or two or three weeks, perhaps less, he was in Berlin and was in the office of the Chief of the Medical Services, and since he was interested in Aviation Medicine, he was in my Referat as a guest, I might say, for a few days.
Q Now, Witness, one question regarding the freezing experiments. You said in regard to this as well as altitude, that Professor Hippke carried out a great deal of the work in this field on his own initiative and did so without informing the competent Referent of this. Now, the question arises, could Hippke do this -- did he have any knowledge in the field of aviation medicine so that he could reach autonomous decisions?
A Professor Hippke had not conducted any aviation medical research himself but had taken an intensive interest in aviation medicine, and, no doubt, had knowledge in this field which was far above the normal average of a doctor.
Q Then, if I understand you correctly, you mean to say that fundamental questions of this sort he could decide without consulting a specialist.
A Doubtless.
Q Then, witness, please take up the freezing document book. First of all, Document NO-268, page 140 in the German version of the document book on freezing. It is a letter of 19 February 1943, from the Inspector of the Medical Service of the Luftwaffe, to the Reichsfuehrer-SS, signed by Hippke. On this document there is the famous file note 55 and then in parentheses the registry number 211B. You said in cross-examination, Witness, that this document was not worked on by you.
Mr. Hardy asked you a few things about this letter, but regarding the question of the freezing experiments I should like to ask you a few more questions, Witness. How does it happen that despite the fact that you say you are not a specialist in freezing matters, you could make a perfectly clear, understandable statement about these freezing problems? Could you make these statements from specialized experience in the field of cold, or on the basis of experience of a purely general nature that you had as a scientist, research worker, and experimenter.
A I never performed any cold experiment either on animals or on myself or on another human being. I, of course, read some papers on the subject, but the statement which I have made here refer generally to a careful study of the document and to my general medical training.
Q Then you made statements on the basis of purely general information which you had as a doctor, supported by a study of the documents and by information on research in general?
A Yes, that is right.
Q On page 22 of the document book on freezing, document NO 286, Exhibit 88, there is a word which Mr. Hardy put to you -- Document NO 286 -- a letter to the Reichsfuehrer-SS from the Reich Air Minister, 8 October 1942. Do you have the document?
A That is the one you were just talking about? Yes, I have it.
Q In this document please turn to the last paragraph on the first page, where Anthony writes: "The research records and an extensive report will be presented to the Reichsfuehrer-SS by Stabsarzt Dr. Rascher."
Mr. Hardy contended that the extensive report mentioned here is the report that Professor Holzloehner gave in Nurnberg. May I ask you whether this opinion of Mr. Hardy is correct, or just what is the report here mentioned?
AAs far as I remember, in the answer which I gave Mr. Hardy I said that one of the next documents shows that what Holzloehner said at the Nurnberg meeting was the part of this report which could be made public as top secret. According to what I know today, this extensive report was the one which Professor Holzloehner, Dr. Finke, and Rascher signed. It was sent by Rascher to Himmler as top secret with a personal letter, and was certainly not what Professor Holzloehner about three weeks later told the people assembled at Nurnberg.
Q In your direct examination you have already stated that this extensive report, so far as you know, did not go to the office of the Chief of the Medical Inspectorate of the Luftwaffe, and that, at any rate, yon never saw the report in the office.
A That's what I said, yes.
Q Now, the last question regarding the freezing experiments, Witness. Very surprisingly, the Prosecutor stated here for the first time, that the method of rapid rewarming was not introduced into practice in the German Wehrmacht. This statement surprised me greatly, since I found no document to this effect, nor did I hear anything orally to that effect. Now tell us, witness, was this method actually introduced in the German Wehrmacht, and if so, when?
A My positive knowledge about this introduction is as follows: First of all, I know that in the course of the winter of 1942-1943, instructions for medical officers were issued advocating almost ordering, quick rewarming as the only method for treatment after freezing. Secondly, every German soldier in the East or the North received a memorandum an his pay book about what to do for cold and treatment of frozen persons. Also, I knew that the Medical Sea Distress Stations, in their motor boats, life boats, had arrangements for using the hot water which comes out of the motor after cooling the moror, for the treatment of frozen persons. But I believe that can be proved by an affidavit from a sea distress doctor.
Q Then the final question on cold, which you can answer with one sentence, Witness. In your direct examination you said that rapid rewarming had been discussed at great length, and then Mr. Hardy brought the discovery of a Russian doctor from the year 1880, I believe, to your attention and asked you why these experiments by Holzloehner at Dachau were necessary in view of that. Can you say something to that?
A These experiments -- specifically Holzloehner's experiments -on quick rewarming, where, in Holzloehner's own words, no experimental subject suffered any hard or was endangered, were necessary because in spite of the experiments of the Russian Doctor, Lepezinsky in 1880, and in spite of numerous animal experiments, and in spite of some isolated observations in practice, no one could decide against slow rewarming, which had been used for thousands of years for freezing, and to change around completely and do exactly the opposite -- do exactly what had always been considered the greatest danger -- that is, quick rewarming.