You said on direct examination that you told Beiglboeck that this was a specific military order and that he was to follow the following instructions; when he received them, and one of the instructions was that there would be no serious damage to health and no fatalities, two; to interrupt the experiments if they became dangerous; and, three, that they ranted clear results from the experiments and also the experimental subject's consent. Now I understood you to say those were the instructions you gave Beiglboeck before he proceeded to Dachau.
A. I am convinced that if you will read over the transcript that you will find what I actually said. Beiglboeck received this order in my presence from my department chief and after we had left the department chief'f office and gone back to my office, perhaps it was the next day- I don't know- Professor Beiglboeck asked me whether that order which he had received from the department chief was to be taken as a definite military order and I said "yes", but I didn't give him the order myself. Besides if I had given him the order I would take the responsibility for it today since I consider the order which my department chief gave him quite a permissible matter.
Q. Well now was the judgment about whether or not the experimental subjects could continue to tolerate Berka water left up to the experimental subjects or was that left up to the discretion of Dr. Beiglboeck?
A. We at the time did not think of this question from the legal but from the medical point of view and I assume that I may still leave the legal decision to the Tribunal. From the purely medical point of view it is clear that the decision as to whether an experiment is to be broken off depends on the findings of the doctor, as roll as on the statements of the subjects. If I may clarify that by an example, it might be that one of the experimental subjects in the course of the experiment became unconscious:
If the man in charge of the experiment wanted to wait until the subject woke up, and said, "Let's stop the experiment now", that would have been too late.
Q. Then actually the conduct of the experiments was up to the discretion of the doctor?
A. I would like to put it like this: The responsibility for the health and life of the experimental subjects was, of course, in the hands of the doctor, and it is quite clear that a doctor like Professor Beiglboeck will take into consideration the statements of the subjects, that is, a matter of course to a doctor.
Q. Well then if someone died in these experiments Beiglboeck *** would certainly been held responsible by the Chief of the Medical Service. I am completely convinced of that, because that it would have been a violation of his instructions that no deaths were to be allowed to occur.
Q. Well if a death had occurred would you have felt responsible, in as much as you take full responsibility for the initiation of the experiments?
A. In 1944 I would have had to leave that up to a court martial of the Luftwaffe. I can't judge, perhaps I might have been indicted too. I don't know.
Q. Would you have expected to have been indicted had a death occurred in these experiments at Dachau?
A. That is a double or triple hypothetical question. I would have expected that if I had been indicted I would have been acquitted.
Q. Doctor, after the completion of these experiments a report was given, in October 1944, in a bunker near the Zoological Garden near Berlin by Dr. Beiglboeck. Who was present at that meeting?
A. I assume that the meeting was in October, I don't know. I heard it was in September; September or October, I am not sure. At any rate it was only one meeting.
I can remember definitely that Generaloberstabsarzt Schroeder was present, Professor Beiglboeck.?? of course, was there, Dr. Schaeffer was present, Mr. Berka was present, and representatives of the Navy were present. There were all together about perhaps twenty people. I can't remember any more individuals than those I have just given.
Q. Who presided over the meeting?
A. Generaloberstabsarzt Dr. Schroeder opened the meeting Then I spoke a few words about the purpose of the experiments Then Professor Beiglboeck held his lecture. Then after it I believe, Professor Schroeder left, because in this bunker there was a Luftwaffe Hospital and Professor Schroeder had promised to attend an operation which he wanted to perform himself. In the discussion which followed, I presided because I was the referent in charge. But the discussion lasted only about ten minutes and that was the end of it.
Q. Dr. Beiglboeck gave a complete clinical report of the results of the experiments?
A. He gave a report on the clinical course of the experiments, yes.
Q. Did he state what symptoms were apparent as a result of the application of sea-water to the subjects?
A. Yes, I am sure he reported that because that was one of the purposes of the report.
Q. What symptoms did he find prevalent after a certain number of days?
A. In this trial I have heard so much about the symptoms that I am unable to tell you exactly what Professor Beiglboeck said then and what I have read in the meantime but those things Professor Beiglboeck will be able to give you a more definite answer. But, I shall try to tell you what I remember for certain. Professor Beiglboeck explained that the feeling of thirst was much stronger in the group which had drunk sea-water than in the group which had nothing to drink at all and that in the group which had drunk sea-water the people were more restless while the people who drank nothing were sleepy more than anything else. That is what I can definitely recall today.
Q. Would the report of the meeting in October contained in Schroeder's affidavit, which is paragraph 6, document NO-474 which is on page 6 of the Document Book 5, the passage is found on page 7. This paragraph 6 reads as follows:
"The experiments were carried out at the Dachau concentration camp by Dr. Beiglboeck, in summer of 1944. In October 1944, Beiglboeck reported on these experiments at a meeting which took place in a bunker near the Zoological Gardens in Berlin. Schroeder, Becker-Freyseng and I were present. It is possible that Dr. Schuster, an Air Force physician who worked at the Luftwaffe Medical Academy in Prague, was also present. Beiglboeck showed those present at the meeting numerous charts of analyses of the urine and blood of the experimental objects who were given only Berkatit to drink. Photographs and films were also presented and various groups of experiments were discussed. On the basis of this report, I estimate that 20 to 40 persons were used for these experiments, which were carried out during a period of seven to twelve days. Dr. Beiglobeck also reported that the experiments had resulted in the swelling of the liver and vervous symptoms. Delirium and mental disturbances also appeared. As a result of this meeting, it was decided that the Berka process was absolutely of no use to the Luftwaffe."
Now, is that a concise and more or less accurate report of what Beiglboeck had to say?
A. No.
Q. What discrepancies do you wish to point out?
A. First of all Dr. Schaefer is perhaps the only person who saw a film. It must have been such a secret showing that only Dr. Schaefer noticed it. No film was ever taken.
At any rate, I never saw one and there at the bunker meeting no pictures were shown.
Q. He could have meant by that merely photographs and used the expression film.
A. Let me point out first it says - photographs and films." Photographs were shown and will be submitted in evidence here.
Q. Any other discrepancies you wish to point out?
A. Yes, I want to point out above all the "nervous symptoms, the delirium, and the mental disturbances." First of all, the nervous symptoms, can mean so many things. I don't know what Dr. Schaefer meant by it but he will be able to explain that himself. I know nothing about any nervous symptoms. It could be, I believe Dr. Beiglboeck spoke of a tetanoid picture of symptoms. That is a condition in which the muscles are very easily excited if one taps a muscle, a muscle knot is formed. That is a very harmless thing. If that is called a nervous disorder that is possible, but it is a very harmless thing. "Delirium presupposed fever." The translation is impossible. Possibly it might be fever-delirium. I do not know from Professor Beiglboeck's report that the subjects had any fever. So, I don't know wherefrom they should have gotten "fever-delirium." And "mental disturbances", I know only that Professor Beiglboeck spoke only of so-called "apathy." That is nothing but strong sleepiness and some lack of interest to the outside world. That is known from all hunger and thirst cures that the people prefer to sleep and are not interested in anything, just as if a person is tired. According to what I know of psychiatry, I would not call that a "mental disturbance."
Q. Well, did Dr. Beiglboeck tell you how many people in the experiments?
A. He said definitely that no one died.
Q. Well, did he tell you what Joseph Sultoing says in his affidavit which is found on page 28 of Document Book 5 wherein he states, and I quote:
A. As far as I know this is not an affidavit. It is a Viennese Police record which is not sworn to.
MR. HARDY: This has been admitted provisionally and to be sworn to and Prosecution has had the same affidavit sworn to and when we introduce our documents formally, the one with the jurate on which contains the some information will be then admitted. The Tribunal had admitted this provisionally pending receipt of the jurate. Therefore we can use it here, doctor. Now, in this document---
A. Thank you for the information. Unfortunately I do not have the document.
DR. TIPP: Might I ask Mr. Hardy to give me the exhibit number of this new document. I know only what one is in the document book.
MR. HARDY: The same number, your Honor, since the affidavit was only sent down for the jurate.
DR. TIPP: Has it already been introduced? Has it already been given an exhibit number?
MR. HARDY: Your Honor, it was last January 15 when I introduced it.
THE PRESIDENT: Yes, I have it here. It seems to be Exhibit No. 139.
MR. HARDY: It was admitted provisionally pending obtaining of jurates from the affiant in Austria. Now this document, in the English copy on page 28. The interpreters will note in the middle of the page the words page 2 of the original in parenthesis. If you will go up towards the top of the page to "page 2 of the original" in the middle of the page - 6 lines I will start reading where it says:
"Professor Beiglboeck came" -----
"Prof. Beiglboeck came with a staff of three Luftwaffe assistants, and the experiments began. As far as I know in various methods; starvation diets to begin with, seawater and salt diets, salt injections, and so on. The tortures led to enfeebling of the body which resulted in loss of consciousness and, as far as I know, in one death."
Now, did Dr. Beiglboeck mention anything of that nature in his report?
A. No.
Q. Now it says further down here - we skip one sentence and go to the statement beginning "Beiglboeck delivered these so-called troublemakers to the SS, which treated them in the manner customary in the camp."
Did he mention anything about that in his report?
A. No, he said nothing about that and I consider it a perfect lie.
Q. Well, now he says farther in this affidavit that will be down 2 - 3 more sentences beginning with "As in all the experimentation stations", that will be 2 sentences after the last sentence, I read: "As in all the experimentation stations, it was Beiglboeck's practice to send those prisoners undermined by the experiments, to the regular infirmary in order to conceal the number of deaths among the experimental subjects."
Did he call that to your attention?
A. Not only did he not call that to my attention, but at the time I saw the records of these experiments and w s able to note that all the subjects with whom he had started were still there at the end of the experiment.
I think that is up to Professor Beiglboeck to present proof of that.
Q. Doctor, did he tell you about the fact that when persons died in the experiments they were put then on stretchers, covered, with a white sheet and delivered to the morgue, as testified here to by the witness Viehweg.
A. I think you mean the criminal Viehweg who is charged again for calling himself a doctor illegally. So much for Viehweg. And as for the dead persons whom Viehweg says he saw for the sake of brevity I may refer you again to the case of Professor Beiglboeck and say in his defense because to my own knowledge I can say nothing about these deaths personally who were resurrected later.
Q Did Dr. Beiglboeck tell you where the experimental subjects came from?
A I consider that possible. I don't know today where they came from, but I don't know whether Professor Beiglboeck knows, I can't remember.
Q Did he tell you that they came from an other concentration camp other than Dachau?
A I just said that I can't remember that. It's possible that I asked Professor Beiglboeck what kind of subjects he got. It is possible that if Professor Beiglboeck knew that he told me, but in three years since that time I have forgotten again. It may be that he told me
Q Did he tell you that these volunteers were men who had volunteered for a "special commando"?
A "Special Commando". No, that was never mentioned.
Q I see. Doctor, in connection with typhus and virus research, did you know of the Typhus and Virus Research Institute in Lemberg, also known as the Lemberg Fleckfieber Institute, the Lemberg Spotted Fever Institute, or the Behring Institute-Lemberg?
A No, I heard of all these Institutes for the first time here. I never heard heard of them heretofore.
Q Do you know whether or not the Lemberg Institute had any connection whatsoever with the Luftwaffe?
A I can neither affirm or deny that. Never heard about it.
Q You don't know anything about the administration of the Lemberg Institute? Whether it was administered by the Luftwaffe or by I.G. Farben?
A I have no idea.
Q I have no further questions, Your Honor.
THE PRESIDENT: Any redirect examination by Defense Counsel?
MR. HARDY: Your Honor, it is my understanding that we are going to call the witness Jaeger at this time.
THE PRESIDENT: I would ask Dr. Steinbauer, is it satisfactory to you to, at this time, call your witness Jeager?
DR. STEINBAUER: Mr. President, May I call the witness Jaeger at this time?
THE PRESIDENT: The defendant Becker-Freyseng is excused from the witness stand temporarily and will resume his place.
The Marshall will summon the witness Rolf Jaeger.
ROLF JAEGER, a witness took the stand and testified as follows:
BY JUDGE SEBRING:
Q You will please hold up your right hand and take the oath.
I swear by God, the Almighty and Omniscient, that I will speak the pure truth and will withhold and add nothing.
(The witness repeated the oath.)
You may seated.
THE PRESIDENT: Counsel may proceed.
BY DR. STEINBAUER:
Q Witness, what is your exact name, where were you born, what is your nationality and what is your present address?
A My name is Dr. Rolf Jaeger. I was born on the 1st of November, 1912, in Graudenz on the Vistula in Western Prussia. I am a doctor by profession. I am a German citizen. My present address is Graz-Liebenau, Austria, 721st S.E.P. Hospital.
Q What is your employment there?
A I am an Oberstabsarzt and senior medical officer for S.E.P. units under British command. I am personally directly subordinate to the headquarters of the British troops in Austria. I am also a chief physician of the 721st S.E.P. Hospital.
Q How is it that you know Professor Beiglboeck?
A I met Professor Beiglboeck under the auspices of the adjutant of the Corps Physician in Berlin-Tempelhof about the end of 1943. He was sent to my hospital in Tarvisio in Northern Italy about Easter, 1944, and he was under me from that time on.
Q How long was he your subordinate?
A He was my subordinate, until the end of the war.
Q What was his position there?
A He was leading physician of the internal department of my hospital.
Q Do you know whether Beiglboeck had the title "Consulting Physician of the Luftwaffe?"
A No, Professor Beiglboeck was not a consulting physician of the Luftwaffe. I remember, however, that he would suggested as such. From a personal remark of the Generalstabsarzt, Dr. Neumueller I learned that he was proposed at the consulting internist of the Army.
Q Why was he not appointed?
A He was rejected by Generalstabsarzt Neumueller since he did not think he was a good enough soldier and was "too soft ", as he said to me personally.
Q Who then took the position that he was intended for?
A His position was taken by some else who took over the duties of consulting internist. He was not a academic teacher. I cannot remember his name today.
Q Now, what military rank did Beiglboeck have in June of 1944?
A Professor Beiglboeck was an Oberarzt of the reserve at the time, but he was already classified for Stabsarzt at the time when he came to Tarvisio.
Q Can you tell us something about his previous employment in the Luftwaffe?
A He came to us from the Luftwaffe Hospital in Brunswick with a good reputation. I know nothing of his previous work.
Q Your hospital in Tarvisio, was that German territory or was that outside Germany?
A Tarvisio was on Italian soil. The hospital belonged to the Army operating in Italy. The borders were strictly blocked.
Q Did Professor Beiglboeck have any personal connections with higher offices, particularly to the Medical Inspectorate?
A No, he did not. I don't believe he wanted any.
Q What can you tell us about his medical activities and his attitude as a physician?
A His medical activities consisted in taking care of the internal department and caring for the patients. May hospital had 1500 beds at that time. 450 approximately belonged to the internal department. To this was attached an infectious ward and a tuberculosis ward, an X-ray department, a clinical laboratory and a department for physical therapy. As a physician Professor Beiglboeck had a very good reputation, not only among his patients but also among the personnel under him and above all among his colleagues. As a man to every one respected him and liked him.
Q Did you have only members of the German Wehrmacht as patients or did you have also foreign patients?
A Not only German members of the armed forces, but also Italian soldiers, and also Poles, Russians, Yugoslavs, Americans and Englishmen. The latter were fliers who had been shot down and some of them in our hospital for months. Professor Beiglboeck made no distinction as to nationality when treating his patients.
Q Did Beiglboeck, during his stay in Italian territory, have touch with the civilian population?
A Yes, very close touch. He had good reputation as a doctor, not only among us, but his reputation got around in the small town of Tarvisio and, in his free time, he did all to help the poor mountain population. He was often on the road at night which was without danger towards the end of the war because there were partisans in the area.
Q Now, Dr. Jaeger, let us turn to the experiments. Do you know when Beiglbock was ordered to report to Berlin?
A I cannot give you the date exactly. It was about the second half of June in 1944.
Q In what way was this carried out?
A By a teletype message.
Q. Do you recall whether the teletype message contained a reason for this request?
A. No, it merely said that Professor Beiglboeck was to report immediately to the Medical Inspectorate in Berlin.
Q. Did you ask by phone or by telegram what was afoot here?
A. Yes, I inquired by telephone and I was informed that Professor Beiglboeck was to be assigned to some scientific work; I could learn nothing else.
Q. Now, when Beiglboeck was in Berlin, did he tell you what was going on and ask you to request his return?
A. Yes, he did.
Q. What reason did he give for this request?
A. He explained his wish to be sent back by saying that he did not like to accept the assignment to carry out experiments in a concentration camp and besides, he wanted to come back to the internal Department of the Hospital and asked me to try to arrange it.
Q. Did you make efforts to have him brought back?
A. Yes, I did, I said that I had entrusted him with the building up of the internal department and it was hard for me to get along without him.
Q. Why was this request on your part refused?
A. My request went through official channels to the adjutant of the Army Surgeon and he had to ask for the release from the Medical Inspectorate. It was rejected and said that the assignment he had to carry out was important.
Q. Did Beiglbock then tell you that he had asked that the experiments be carried out in Tarvisie?
A. Yes.
Q. Would that have been technically possible?
A. Technically, yes.
Q. How so?
A. We had quite a good laboratory and the laboratory workers would have been adequate to carry out the normal experiments.
Q. Why was this then not done?
A. The military situation was such that we needed every bed in the hospital. There was also an order that the borders of the Reich were closed for the return of patients and it would have been difficult to solve the bed question. Immediately after the Invasion, we received a Fuehrer order which again strictly prohibited any return of patients and this order was binding on all Wehrmacht offices.
Q. When Beiglboeck went to Dachau, did he write anything to you or did he write to any of the other doctors about what went on there?
A. Yes, I remember that very well, he wrote to several members of the hospital staff, and in all the letters he said how unhappy he was at Dachau and how much he disliked carrying out the experiments there. I remember before the experiments began, he wrote me personally a letter and asked me again to try to arrange for his return. I tried again, but without success, I myself, of course, was particularly interested in getting him back, because I had assigned him to do this new building.
Q. Dr. Jaeger, you were in fact the medical officer; do you believe that Bieglboeck could have refused to obey this military order?
A. No, I do not believe so. After all, it came from the supreme superior and Professor Beiglboeck was a medical officer. Orders for medical officers were the same as for any other officer and soldier.
Q. Now, Beiglboeck carried out his experiments and after the experiments were over, he came back to Tarvisio. What did he report to you about his experiments?
A. About the middle of October, Professor Beiglboeck reported back to me as his disciplinary superior. When I inquired, he told me about his assignment, he told me that no carried out the sea-water experiments as ordered. He also said that before the beginning of the experiment he also performed an experiment on himself. He said that the experimental subjects were gipsies, who had volunteered and that they were granted extra food rations, less work, etc.
Q. Tell me, Dr. Jaeger, did he say anything to you about what his relations were with the experimental subjects, these concentration camp inmates?
A. I had the impression that he had very good relations with his experimental subjects.
Q. Do you think that Dr. Beiglboeck had any reason to conceal the true facts?
A. No, I do not; he under the then existing conditions had no reason to conceal anything from me aside from the fact that I asked him as his superior officer.
Q. Well, Dr. Beiglboeck came back to Tarvisio and he came back from a concentration camp; did you ask him what it looked like in a concentration camp?
A. Yes, of course, I as well as the others who heard it were quite astonished that he could not say much about the conditions, he only said that his movements in the concentration camp were restricted and relations with the SS were rather tense.
Q. Now, I want to ask you something else. Do you think Professor Beiglboeck had any personal, scientific or literary interest in these sea-water experiments?
A. No, I do not believe so. On the contrary, as far as I can remember, he was doing scientific work on hepatitis at the time in the clinic and I think he wanted to publish a book on the subject; thus I believe the contrary would be true.
Q. But maybe you think that he did these experiments, as the chief prosecutor said in his opening statement, from a Nazistic point of view in order to torture the enemies of National Socialism.
A. I do not believe that as that would not fit in with his character. I never knew him as a fanatic, his sympathy and heart always belonged to the weak and oppressed, he never refused them aid. I think he was a party member, yes, but if one heard him, one had to have the opposite impression of his ideals; his criticism of party or political measures of the highest agencies indicated that. I don't believe that I can assume that.
Q. Now, let me ask you a last question. You are a physician, a medical officer, and I know of your career; do you consider the problem of such sea-water experiments sack as these a superfluous one; do you think they were unnecessary or do you think they were serious experiments and a important problem?
A. Yes, I believe it was an important problem. I may say that I was a parachutist on Crete and know the special dangers of the sea. I was shut in for two days near the coast in Crete and suffered greatly from thirst. After these two days we reached the sea; we were sitting practically in the water and were suffering greatly from thirst, but were unable to drink. On the fourth day we received fresh water from a well. Anyone who has thirst practically sitting in the water will realize how important the problem is.
Q. Did you have ship-wrecked people who suffered from thirst at that time?
A. Yes, there were a number of people who flew to Crete who crashed and I saw quite a few people who had managed to reach the land and who had been fished out of the water. I saw the conditions and the greatest problem for all these people was the water and their great thirst.
Q. No further questions.
THE PRESIDENT: Are there any further questions to be propounded to the witness by defense counsel? If not, the Prosecution may cross examine.
CROSS EXAMINATION BY MR. HARDY:
Q. What was the specific date when Dr. Beiglboeck went to Berlin to report to the Medical Inspectorate?
A. I said before that I don't know the exact date; I believe it was the second half of June 1944.
Q. And when did he return?
A. As far as I can remember, that was about October, the middle of October.
Q. When did he tell you that he had an assignment to experiment on concentration camp inmates at Dachau?
A. He told me that in a letter.
Q. What was your interest in this matter?
A. In his carrying out the experiments?
Q. Yes.
A. No, I had no interest in them. I wanted him as an internist for my hospital for medical reasons and because we were building a new building.
Q. Was Dr. Beiglboeck a man of good character and reputation?
A. Oh, yes, I may well say so.
Q. Did you ever hear of the Fuehrer Order of Secrecy?
A. For this experiment?
Q. The Fuehrer Order of Secrecy in Germany, not for this experiment?
A. No, I never heard of it.
Q. Do you know what "Secret" means?
A. Of course.
Q. Do you know what "Top Secret" means?
A. Yes, I know what that is.
Q. If you were given a secret order, would you go and tell your friends about it, or would you consider that a breach of your allegiance to the Fuehrer and to the Nazi Government?
A. That depends. I do not know.....
Q. Do you think that Beiglboeck was being very considerate and very loyal when he informed you about matters which were "Top Secret", a man that had nothing to do with the problem?
A. Whether that was loyal of Professor Beiglboeck; was that your question?
Q. Well, wasn't it rather unusual?
A. No, I don't believe so, I don't think there was any reason for secrecy in this matter.
Q. Well, for your information, Doctor, the matter was classified "Top Secret". Don't you feel Dr. Beiglboeck was breaching his allegiance when he informed you, an outsider, about his proposed work at the Dachau concentration camp?
A. I don't believe so, otherwise he would probably have treated it as such.
Q. Now, you say that Dr. Beiglboeck enjoyed a cordial relationship with the experiment subjects; how do you know that?
A. I know that because he told me a great deal about their existence in his series of experiments. He said that they came to him with their personnel troubles, he said that they all spoke German. Since I knew him personally, I believe that he had close contact with his experimental subjects.
Q. You know that only from Beiglboeck himself, a man who had breached an oath in giving you information about a Top Secret project? Is that right?